New to Daycare - Always in the Swing

[NewMommyC]

My son is 4 months old and just started daycare 4 days ago. Prior to daycare his grandfather was watching him at home. The daycare has a webcam and it seems like every time I log in to see what he's up to he's in the swing sleeping. I know they have other children to look after but I'm wondering if he's swinging/sleeping too much. I've never had a problem putting him to bed at night, but ever since he's started daycare he is much harder to put to bed. Any ideas? Suggestions?

[jen]

I don't know about where you are, but here it isn't allowed to have a child sleep in a swing....you may want to check the licensing rules on that in your area.

As for how much is too much...how often are you checking? It may be that he is sleeping more at daycare and less at home as part of his transition.

I think what I would do is try to make an effort to monitor every hour or so for the next week, perhaps keep a journal of the time/date/activity. It will probably become very clear how your baby is spending his days and if he is sleeping less and less at daycare as he becomes more acclimated.

[Unregistered]

Thanks for the advice...i'll definitely check on that. I figured it was all a part of him adjusting, but I wanted to be sure. I'll make sure to monitor the webcam every hour to see whats happening. I just thought they would do more with him developmentally. NewMommyC

[momofsix]

If he's sleeping, he should be in a bed. Part of not sleeping as well at home could also be that he's getting used to the swinging motion to help him sleep. I agree with the suggestions Jen made and would follow through with those, especially monitering every hour at least.

[MN Mom]

Sleeping could be his transistion, yes. Also, children's growth happens primarily while asleep, and babies fastest growth is in the first year of life. They will sleep, and should sleep ALOT during this time. The little bit they are awake, however, they should be interacted with, held, talked to etc. I agree with Momofsix, though, unless there is some acid reflux issue..he needs to be in his bed / crib / pack n' play while sleeping.

[Chickenhauler]

Thanks for the advice...i'll definitely check on that. I figured it was all a part of him adjusting, but I wanted to be sure. I'll make sure to monitor the webcam every hour to see whats happening. I just thought they would do more with him developmentally. NewMommyC

He's four months old....at that age, the average kid sleeps, wakes up to eat, goes back to sleep, wakes up to get his shorts changed, sleeps some more....I'm starting to get jealous here!

Honestly, under one year, kids are like old dogs, they sleep, eat and poop and not much else.

[Former Teacher]

Here in TX same thing: a baby can not be in a swing (or any other confinement other than a crib) for more than 30 mins at a time. They can be in a crib only when sleeping. If after being awake for more than 30 mins, the child must be able to get up and on to other things :)

I agree with the other posters. Log on different times and note each time. If you can't do it on a routine basis maybe ask Grandpa or someone you can trust to look at the cam for you.

[MN Mom]

He's four months old....at that age, the average kid sleeps, wakes up to eat, goes back to sleep, wakes up to get his shorts changed, sleeps some more....I'm starting to get jealous here!

Honestly, under one year, kids are like old dogs, they sleep, eat and poop and not much else.

That's what all mine did too! It's totally normal. I miss their baby days :lol:, I got waaaaay more done around the house during their sleep time. Now that they are older, its much more difficult...:D

[mac60]

This is totally normal. As others said, eat and sleep. That is most of their day. If he is sleeping and content, I would think the daycare is doing a good job. And there is the saying.....never wake a sleeping baby.

This is one reason that I would never allow cameras in my daycare, or in a center if I owned one. No way I am going to be second guessed 11 hours a day.

[Crystal]

Sure, babies that age should be sleeping alot, but NO, not in a swing. As the parent, I'd be pissed if my baby was always sleeping in a swing. NOT HEALTHY at all.

[emosks]

Yeah, he should not be sleeping in a swing. In MI we are told if a child falls asleep in the swing/bouncy/etc we are to move them to a crib.

[Unregistered]

When was the last time you heard of baby dying of SIDS in a swing. I feel safer having babies taking a nap in a swing where I can see them versus in a crib in a room away from me. If I don't have the baby in a swing then I usually have them sleep in their car seat until they are old enough to get out of the carseat on their own (I don't buckle them in when sleeping and leave the seat on the floor). When they are old enough to get out on their own, they are big enough to pick up their headed and roll over and thus the risk of SIDS is significantly decrease.

[Chickenhauler]

Sure, babies that age should be sleeping alot, but NO, not in a swing. As the parent, I'd be pissed if my baby was always sleeping in a swing. NOT HEALTHY at all.

You say it's unhealthy to sleep in a swing....what exact health risks does this pose?

Our child swing is kinda recliner-like, very comfortable napping position, IMHO.

[nannyde]

You say it's unhealthy to sleep in a swing....what exact health risks does this pose?

Our child swing is kinda recliner-like, very comfortable napping position, IMHO.

No babies should not sleep in a swing. Small babies don't have the strength to hold their heads straight, even when sitting in a reclined position, making it easy for their airways to be blocked. The risk of baby's head falling forward in a way that would affect breathing is one reason why it's important to be sure that the baby is never left unattended in a swing.

[mac60]

I could understand this with the swings of years ago where the infant basically sat up, but the swings of today are very much a reclining swing, a least mine is, which makes a big difference. Infants also sleep much better in a reclining position vs laying down. Personally, I feel we all need to do whatever works the best for each individual infant. Not every infant is the same, sleeps the same, etc.

[misol]

I could understand this with the swings of years ago where the infant basically sat up, but the swings of today are very much a reclining swing, a least mine is, which makes a big difference. Infants also sleep much better in a reclining position vs laying down. Personally, I feel we all need to do whatever works the best for each individual infant. Not every infant is the same, sleeps the same, etc.

I agree with mac60. The swing that I have holds the baby at about the same angle as if you were holding the sleeping baby in your arms. One of my parents specifically said to put her baby in the swing for a nap:) Unless licensing prohibits it in your area, I see nothing wrong with letting a baby fall asleep in the right kind of swing.

[momofsix]

http://pediatrics.about.com/od/weeklyquestion/a/0707_baby_sleep.htm
Info about sleeping in swings/carseats and cranium deformities and SIDS]

[nannyde]

I agree with mac60. The swing that I have holds the baby at about the same angle as if you were holding the sleeping baby in your arms. One of my parents specifically said to put her baby in the swing for a nap:) Unless licensing prohibits it in your area, I see nothing wrong with letting a baby fall asleep in the right kind of swing.

Parents can't give you permission to do the wrong thing. They don't get to decide for you to do something that isn't safe. It doesn't matter that they are the parents. They can decide what THEY do but they can't decide what you do if what they decide is wrong.

Babies should sleep FLAT out on their backs. They need gravity to keep their head from jutting forward and cutting off their wind pipes. The only way they can do that is to have their whole bodies laying FLAT. If the angle of their head is above their butts it's not safe.

The ONLY exception would be a medical exception. The child would have to have a note from the Dr. ORDERING them to sleep at an angle or upright position.

For one of the above posters: The difference between cradling a child in your ARMS to the same angle as them sitting in a seat is that you are HOLDING the child the entire time. That way YOU balance the position of their heads in relation to their necks. A swing can't do that. It's an apples and oranges comparison.

[mac60]

This is probably one of those debates that will never be solved. Someone is always going to disagree. And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

[jen]

This is probably one of those debates that will never be solved. Someone is always going to disagree. And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

Yes, in daycare the parent does loose the right to decide how the baby can and and cannot sleep. Not following the regs regarding this issue has HUGE legal ramification if, God forbid, something terrible should happen.

The debate may never be solved, but the law has been made so there really isn't a debate to be had in this instance.

[Childminder]

If you are licensed in the state of MI and the state inspector walks in you are in violation of the following statue. Doesn't matter to the state what your rationale is for letting a child sleep in a swing. Doesn't have to do with position it has to do with softness of surface. If a child is in your arms 'hopefully' said child is being monitored by caregiver, not so in swing.


R 400.1916 (10-11) Bedding and sleeping equipment.
(10) Infant car seats, infant seats, infant swings, bassinets, highchairs,
waterbeds, adult beds, soft mattresses, sofas, beanbags,
or other soft surfaces are not approved sleeping equipment for
children 24 months of age or younger.
(11) Children 24 months or younger who fall asleep in a space that
is not approved for sleeping shall be moved to approved sleeping
equipment appropriate for their size and age.
Rationale Assures for the safety and well-being of children.
Technical
Assistance
If there is a health issue or special need that requires a child sleep in an
elevated position, documentation from the child's health provider is
required prior to allowing a child to sleep in anything other than a crib
or porta-crib. The documentation must include specific sleeping instructions
and time frames for how long the child needs to sleep in this manner

[mac60]

Yes, in daycare the parent does loose the right to decide how the baby can and and cannot sleep. Not following the regs regarding this issue has HUGE legal ramification if, God forbid, something terrible should happen.

The debate may never be solved, but the law has been made so there really isn't a debate to be had in this instance.

As a parent, it is my right to speak on behalf of my child, or did somewhere the gov't take that away too.

Every child is different in some way, in their sleeping patterns, eating patterns, their disposition, simply every child is different in some way. I have had some parents tell me their child sleeps so much better in a swing or bouncer seat in a reclining position, and that is what they do at home, whether it is because they are congested a lot, or whatever the reason may be. I just feel that a parent should have that right to make those kind of decisions for their own child, and if a parent tells me to let their child sleep in a swing, it is their right to ask me the provider to care for their child as they see fit.

As for the original question of the child appearing to be sleeping in the swing everytime the parent logged on to see in the daycare. I can seriously see that this could "seem like a problem", when it truly isn't. As if the provider attempted to take the child out of the swing and put in crib, the child will more than likely wake up, so the provider then used the swing to get the child to calm down, the child nods off, the provider tries to take them out again, just a potential vicious cycle. If your child appears happy, content and well cared for at the end of the day, is that not the goal of both parent and provider, and it should be of the gov't too.

[jen]

As a parent, it is my right to speak on behalf of my child, or did somewhere the gov't take that away too.

Every child is different in some way, in their sleeping patterns, eating patterns, their disposition, simply every child is different in some way. I have had some parents tell me their child sleeps so much better in a swing or bouncer seat in a reclining position, and that is what they do at home, whether it is because they are congested a lot, or whatever the reason may be. I just feel that a parent should have that right to make those kind of decisions for their own child, and if a parent tells me to let their child sleep in a swing, it is their right to ask me the provider to care for their child as they see fit.



Are you on the food program? Do you follow the rules? I don't personally agree with many of the requirements of the program but as I am utilizing that program I do have to abide by them.

The same goes for being a licensed provider. If you are licensed, then you have to follow the guidelines of that license. The water has be at a certain temperature, you need have the proper paperwork on file, and that includes sleeping arrangements as well.

Is the government taking away your rights or the rights of the parent? Well, yes, but those are the laws and you really, really want to follow them. Seriously, you could land in actual JAIL were you to be found negligent. Parents may tell you one thing, but if their child dies of SIDS in your care, they will be looking for someone to blame and it will be you.

[mac60]

Never said I didn't follow the rules, just that as a parent I should be able to say what is ok or not for my child. And honesly, can anyway say that "yes, every got't rule and regulation is the "right way"? I doubt it.

[nannyde]

This is probably one of those debates that will never be solved. Someone is always going to disagree. And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

Mac,

I've lurked on this board for quite a while and just recently started posting. Over the many years of lurking I have found some posters that I really enjoy reading. You are at the top of my fave list :p I agree with you on almost everything. I don't agree with you on this one.

Here's the deal that many providers don't get: Parents don't have the right to get someone else to do something that's not best practice or safe. There are MANY situations where parents want something for a child but are not physically with the child to be the ONE person who takes responsibility for the decision. As soon as the responsibility becomes SHARED or soley on someone else the parents "rights" diminish greatly. That's because it's not just them that will pay.

In this situation... for example.. even if you had the parents provide "permission" for sleeping in a swing and something happened to the baby... then the PARENTS would most likely not be able to come after you for the death of their baby. The parents, however, can not decide what society or the goverment will do with you for this mistake. The parents can't get the Department of Human Services to not hold you accountable. The parents can't get the child's insurer to not come after you should the child not die but have life altering medical conditions because of a suffocation. The insurer won't give a flip what the parents told you to do. They will want the money for the child's care and they will want that from YOU.

You see there are other entities to consider. The parents are just ONE part of the package of who is affected by something happening to a child. Society, the government, and ANY business that has a financial stake in the child CAN and will make you accountable for the actions YOU take with the child.

See?

That's why I say that parents can't give permission for a provider to do the wrong thing. I can't TELL you how many times I have had parents tell me to do something that I simply can not do. One example was a few years back I had a Mom who wanted her newly turned SIX month old baby switched from formula to whole milk. She got free WIC but she wanted to keep the WIC for her at her house and have me just use milk. The baby was taking enough formula that what WIC gave didn't cover all of it. The Mom wanted ME to switch her to milk so she didn't have to provide formula.

I refused and educated her as to why babies under the age of one can't have whole milk (pernicious anemia, digestion etc.). The Mom insisted that SHE was the Mom and that SHE got to decide. I told her to get me a Doctors note saying that I could give milk. She actually took the kid to the Doc and of course.. the Doc refused to give the note for the same reasons I gave her.

She was furious and did a lot of stomping around because she believed what you believe.... that if she is the parents she should be able to decide. That was fine for when SHE was giving the milk but she couldn't ask ME or the Doc to be a part of doing something that research clearly indicates is not safe for a baby.

Same deal with the swing. It's just not safe to leave babies unattended in a swing sleeping. Their heads are very heavy and gravity can pull that head down. Their little necks and shoulders are not strong enough to RIGHT their head back in position. Having a heavy head jutted forward over the neck can cause the childs wind pipe to collapse and kill the child or cause a lack of oxygen that can permanently damage their brains. It's just not safe. There is a reason the State's one by one are putting it in their regs. It's simple laws of physics that tell you not to allow something heavy (head) over something weak (baby neck) and expect gravity to not take over and cause the big thing to crush the little.

See?

I understand your premise... but now maybe you can see a little different pov. It's a GREAT conversation to have... and I have had it over the years with many an experienced provider like you. Even with a lot of experience and the best interest of the kids.. you still can grow and change your opinions. I hope you do on this one.

Nan

[misol]

I don't think that ONE sleeping position is best for ALL babies. As was said in an earlier post, every child is different in some way. Since the regs in my state (VA) do not specifically prohibit sleeping in swings, my daycare baby sleeps in a swing at the mother's request. Most of the current literature regarding sleeping positions seems to be more about SIDS than about blocked airways. I just checked and there is also nothing in our regs that state that you MUST put sleeping infants on their backs either. I have this written in my own policies, but it is not in our minimum standards. I always put daycare infants to sleep on their backs but when my own two children were infants I regularly put them to sleep on their stomachs (or in a swing). It was their preferred method of sleeping so that's how I let them sleep. That was how my mother let me sleep, and that was how my grandmother let her sleep. Whatever works best for the individual baby and their family.

[nannyde]

I don't think that ONE sleeping position is best for ALL babies. As was said in an earlier post, every child is different in some way. Since the regs in my state (VA) do not specifically prohibit sleeping in swings, my daycare baby sleeps in a swing at the mother's request. Most of the current literature regarding sleeping positions seems to be more about SIDS than about blocked airways. I just checked and there is also nothing in our regs that state that you MUST put sleeping infants on their backs either. I have this written in my own policies, but it is not in our minimum standards. I always put daycare infants to sleep on their backs but when my own two children were infants I regularly put them to sleep on their stomachs (or in a swing). It was their preferred method of sleeping so that's how I let them sleep. That was how my mother let me sleep, and that was how my grandmother let her sleep. Whatever works best for the individual baby and their family.

The risk is your risk to take. As the sole provider of care for the child at that time the decision to allow a "preferred method of sleeping" is something only you can make absent any regulations telling you otherwise.

I don't do what the children want. I do what they need. I also have to consider my livlihood and the future of my family. I wouldn't knowingly do something that would put a child at risk especially when there is a very simple viable option that is endorsed by solid research and the American Academy of Pediatrics. That option is to put them to bed on their backs on a firm bottom without ANYTHING in the bed with them.

I put kids to bed completely wide awake every single day. Day after day after day..... month after month.. year after year. They go to sleep and sleep like little lambs. I can't understand the NEED for swings to lull babies to sleep. It takes such a small amount of time to get them used to motionless, wide awake.. put themselves to sleep sleep.

I've had a number of babies who are "swing and motion" addicted when they come to me but a good solid routine with a ton of exercise and activity quickly changes their need to be put to sleep. Tucker them out... fill their bellies before nap... give em time to poop... and then put them to bed wide awake in a darkened room. Magic formula that works thru the years.

Nan

[Chickenhauler]

No babies should not sleep in a swing. Small babies don't have the strength to hold their heads straight, even when sitting in a reclined position, making it easy for their airways to be blocked. The risk of baby's head falling forward in a way that would affect breathing is one reason why it's important to be sure that the baby is never left unattended in a swing.

That makes sense. Thanks.

And a parent does have and should have the right to say how their baby can and can't sleep, or has the government taken that right of parenting away too.

Regulations like this are in place for two reasons-to protect you the provider (criminal and civilly), and to protect the child....both from people who don't know any better.

Stop and think about this-just because someone squeezes out a kid, does that make them an expert on anatomy, development of anatomy, and biology?

SIDS has been studied by people with WAY more education, time, and expertise in these fields than you, I and the parents combined. They have determined, through years of study, data, and research that certain things increase the risk factors.

If you feel it's OK to ignore the law and put your freedom (ever done time for negligent manslaughter?) and life's savings on the line, feel free to do so.

Were it me, if a parent asked me to go against the law of the land for their child, I'd require a doctors written note to back it up and a signed release by the parent.

It's about limiting liability.

[mac60]

That makes sense. Thanks.



Regulations like this are in place for two reasons-to protect you the provider (criminal and civilly), and to protect the child....both from people who don't know any better.

Stop and think about this-just because someone squeezes out a kid, does that make them an expert on anatomy, development of anatomy, and biology?

SIDS has been studied by people with WAY more education, time, and expertise in these fields than you, I and the parents combined. They have determined, through years of study, data, and research that certain things increase the risk factors.

If you feel it's OK to ignore the law and put your freedom (ever done time for negligent manslaughter?) and life's savings on the line, feel free to do so.

Were it me, if a parent asked me to go against the law of the land for their child, I'd require a doctors written note to back it up and a signed release by the parent.

It's about limiting liability.


Who said anything about ignoring the law, doing time for negligent manslaughter.........I only said that the government gets into our business way too much.

[Crystal]

Nanny...thank you for making my argument me....you said it all very well, and I agree with you 100%. :)

[misol]

The risk is your risk to take. As the sole provider of care for the child at that time the decision to allow a "preferred method of sleeping" is something only you can make absent any regulations telling you otherwise.

I don't do what the children want. I do what they need. I also have to consider my livlihood and the future of my family. I wouldn't knowingly do something that would put a child at risk especially when there is a very simple viable option that is endorsed by solid research and the American Academy of Pediatrics. That option is to put them to bed on their backs on a firm bottom without ANYTHING in the bed with them.

I put kids to bed completely wide awake every single day. Day after day after day..... month after month.. year after year. They go to sleep and sleep like little lambs. I can't understand the NEED for swings to lull babies to sleep. It takes such a small amount of time to get them used to motionless, wide awake.. put themselves to sleep sleep.

I've had a number of babies who are "swing and motion" addicted when they come to me but a good solid routine with a ton of exercise and activity quickly changes their need to be put to sleep. Tucker them out... fill their bellies before nap... give em time to poop... and then put them to bed wide awake in a darkened room. Magic formula that works thru the years.

Nan

Point taken.

[emosks]

This hits a little too close to home...

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/kalamazoo_and_battle_creek/baby-in-swinging-seat-dies

[Crystal]

Very sad :( This SHOULD be a wake up call.....I wonder if anyone will heed it.

[nannyde]

This hits a little too close to home...

http://www.woodtv.com/dpp/news/local/kalamazoo_and_battle_creek/baby-in-swinging-seat-dies

The other concern about sleeping in a seat is a baby's head leaning over to the side of the seat and getting their face nestled into the sides of the seat.

It's just not safe to let them sleep in a seat... swing seat or car seat. They should be laying flat on their backs to allow gravity to do it's job and keep the head supported as much as possible.

Even if the seat is completely reclined as far as it will go, it's not safe. You are still allowing them facial access to the sides of the seat. Also, some babies are strong enough to jut their heads forward but not strong enough to right it back into position.

The other thing to think about is the motion of the swing alone could cause the head to jut forward or to the side. The bigger the arch of the swing or the faster you set the setting on the swing the more you are at risk for the infant head to jut to the side or forward.

There are some situations where a doc may write a note to allow a baby to sit at an angle. Severe cases of reflux is one of them. Just remember that even WITH a note from a doc it doesn't give permission for the child to sleep unattended at an angle in a seat. You should always assume that even with directions to allow a child to sleep in a seat that you should supervise them AT ALL TIMES they are in a seat.

Nan

[jen]

Nan, I completely agree...I had a child with reflux and his parents provided me with a medically approved "wedge" which kept his body somewhat upright in his crib. If a child has a medical issue or a bad cold there are other things that can be done without resorting to a swing or a car seat.

[Chickenhauler]

Who said anything about ignoring the law, doing time for negligent manslaughter.........I only said that the government gets into our business way too much.

You did say (or at least until you decided to edit your posts) that a DC provider should be able to leave the child sleeping in the swing.

That would be ignoring the law, which could very well open yourself up to manslaughter charges if a child were to die in your care while sleeping in the swing like that linked story.