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sharlan
07-07-2011, 10:56 AM
I am opening a new topic to prevent hijacking another thread..........

Posted by mom2many

Hi! I am new to this forum, but have been a licensed provider for 25 years. I've seen so many changes over the years...what bothers me is how are providers supposed to be privy to these new laws that those in orientations are told about!

Two years ago I had an unannounced site visit and passed 100% and then 5 months later another LPA came out and said the child proof locks on my bathroom vanity were unacceptable. I explained that in previous inspections that they'd been approved and that even just a few months prior they were totally okay with the last LPA! She informed me that in orientation they tell new providers only the "tot lok" was okay to use. She could not tell me when this had changed or where it was in regs. She went on to write me up for all of the hazardous items that had been behind the child proofed locked doors!

I am totally 100% in favor of making sure my home is safe for the children in my care, but when things change, providers should be informed! I was cited for a Type A, which in CA is a huge, big deal! Parents have to sign a form notifying them of the violation and it has to be posted as well. I'm extremely conscientious and this was horrible!

I appealed this, and it was denied. The LPA's supervisor stated that it the type of childproof devise that is approved is NOT actually in the regs and even within the state of CA each county has its own "interpretation" of what constitutes making it childproof!

I was and am still so appalled at the lack of consistency and frustrated with getting cited for something that had previously been approved by their own agency! I understand gray areas, but my argument is that they should be working with us as providers and informing, not citing us if things change!
..............................

I have read and reread the 89 pages of regulations. Nowhere does it state only totlocks are allowed, even though I was also told this at orientation. Nowhere does it state what is legal "supervision" - visual or hearing. Nowhere does it address water tables and wading pools.

Now it does have 7 or 8 pages dedicated to criminal record clearance and exemptions.

If anybody can provide more info on the rules and regs, I would love to see them. I've searched and searched and cannot find anything.

familyschoolcare
07-07-2011, 11:43 AM
If you log on the the California child car licencing we site from there (do not remember exactly where in the web site) you can find a copy of the power point they show at orientations. when I took the orientations in January it had pictures of what was acceptable and what was not. I was told that if an adult could just pull hard enough and open the door even though it had a baby-lock on it then it was not considered inaccessible.

sorry, I know this is frustrating even though I recently took the orientations I still find it very confusing. For example, in my house I keep bathroom cleaners in a hall closet/cubbert in my hallway on towards the top they do not have to be locked. However, even though that height is lower than the top of the ref. my dishwasher soap could not be on top of the ref. it had to be locked.

I hope this information helps!!!

MarinaVanessa
07-07-2011, 12:02 PM
I hate to tell you this but unfortunately they all have their own way of interpreting the regulations. I had this happen to me once. sort of, with an issue over an infant swing.

I had an inspection and was told by licensing that the infant swing that I had in my home which was supposed to be for my son (I was barely pregnant at the time) was against licensing regulations. I went WHAT :eek:?! I had read and re-read Title 22 and even went online to the licensing website to look through all of the changes and nowhere did I see anything about infant swings not being allowed. I had seen excersaucers, walkers and bouncers in there but not swings so I was really shocked to hear this.

I mentioned this to her and she went on again about how it was against the rules blah blah blah and how she would have to cite me so I asked her to provide me with a copy of that regulation. She went on to repeat herself and again I asked her for the regulation and then she said she wouldn't cite me but that I had to get rid of it. Again I asked her for the regulation and told her that I to see it so that I could understand it because I didn't see it anywhere. Anyway she couldn't provide me with a copy so I asked her before she left to email it to me. As soon as she left I called licensing and got the officer of the day and asked (like I didn't know) if infant swings were allowed. I was told on the phone (and wrote it down) that they were allowed but that the infant couldn not be sleeping in it. I was also told that if a child was in a crib or pack'n'play they could not be awake and also that if I were to have a walker/excersaucer/bouncy seat for my own child that I could not use them during daycare hours but that I could put them away and lock them in my garage or anywhere that was not designated daycare space and that I DID NOT have to get rid of it. I then asked for the email of the woman that did my inspection and I emailed her with a recap of our conversation, the conversation that I had with hte officer of the day and requested the regulation that she was reffering to again. I specifically asked her to respond in writing. Later she called me asking me why I had done what I did and that the oficer of the day was incorrect. Again I told her to email me the regulation. I argued that the officer of the day was also a home inspector and asked her if she was saying that they had unqualified people working in their office. She became aggitated and changed her story from "It's against regulations" to "Well, we frown down upon it". We talked about other things as well and as soon our conversation ended I emailed her right back to recap our entire conversation. She tried calling me back but I wouldn't answer. I emailed her again to let her know that I know that she called but that I preffered our conversation in writing from then on. I never heard from her again. In essence I was asking her to email me and to put her words in writing because it is hard evidence and not just he-said-she-said.

I sort of expected to be put on their "radar" but it's been over a year and I still have not been visited again. I guess what I'm trying to say is that you did your best. You did what I would have done except I asked for it to be put in writing and I think this made her nervous. She can't put something in writing that is incorrect or it's her butt on the line. Unfortunately for you, you fought it and you lost. I have my own theory about this: A licensing employee cites you for something because they have enterpreted the regulation to read a certain way and you go to fight the citation and the "judge" or person who you have to convince that you are inocent is also a licensing employee ... who do you think they are going to side with?

sharlan
07-07-2011, 12:34 PM
There are so many gray areas in our regulations.

2 different inspectors approved my open staircase because I had gates blocking entrance to that room. #3 inspects and says it's not legal because the kids have to pass the staircase to enter my home and to use the bathroom. Now I have a gate for the staircase, but took the other two down.

I know my county is very strict on water in ice chests and mop buckets because a daycare child drowned in an ice chest a couple of years ago.

As my inspector stated, "we all have our hot buttons and mine is water and stairs".

mom2many
07-07-2011, 01:40 PM
The whole appeal process was kind of a waste of time and energy, but I hoped to bring some light to this problem, so that the licensing office might become more effective! It's so true, they aren't going to judge themselves as being in the wrong...so I didn't expect to win. :lol:

I have always made most of the harmful items in my home "inaccessible" by putting them in the garage or cabinet above my fridge. What disturbed me was that I specifically asked licensing what to use on the bathroom cabinet for my own kids toiletries...soap, t.paste, etc. years ago and this latch had been approved by numerous LPA's doing unannounced visits! Just 5 months prior, it had been okay...:confused:

This particular LPA also tried to cite me for having a car seat on my premises. :confused: I appealed this as well, and they did cave on that issue, saying it is understandable that if one parent drops off the other might need it for pick up.

I was told at this same time about providers getting cited for using pack and plays to "restrain" babies. If a provider puts a baby in there with toys to play with while being occupied with the LPA during an inspection, that is totally against regs. I guess it's safer to have them be left unsupervised...:confused:

All I can say is where is the common sense and do the best I can!

sharlan
07-07-2011, 01:57 PM
It's safer for a baby to be on the floor, being stepped on or tripped over, than to be in a exersaucer or playpen. (INSERT SARCASAM here)

I always tried to keep my babies out as much as possible, but it is impossible to keep an eye on them every second. A 2 yo has to be taken potty, someone needs a drink, it's time to make breakfast/lunch/snack. You have to tell the 3 yo to share, etc. Other children need to be monitored and supervised, too. IMHO, babies need to be placed in a playpen or swing for their safety.

mom2many
07-07-2011, 02:31 PM
It's safer for a baby to be on the floor, being stepped on or tripped over, than to be in a exersaucer or playpen. (INSERT SARCASAM here)

I always tried to keep my babies out as much as possible, but it is impossible to keep an eye on them every second. A 2 yo has to be taken potty, someone needs a drink, it's time to make breakfast/lunch/snack. You have to tell the 3 yo to share, etc. Other children need to be monitored and supervised, too. IMHO, babies need to be placed in a playpen or swing for their safety.

I couldn't agree more!

sharlan
07-07-2011, 02:36 PM
I meant to say babies need to be placed in a playpen or swing AT TIMES for their safety. I'm not saying for hours at a time.

Country Kids
07-07-2011, 02:41 PM
In my area we have two licensors and both have different opinions/believes how things should be. One poor lady in our area is about the only one that they say has to have bark chips under the outdoor equipment but no one else does! Her play equip. is in the yard like everyone elses.

One of them will approve you but the next time point out everything that is wrong. Several people have complained on this because she will sign off one time but not the next.

One time they told me I couldn't have my knives in the butcher block on my cabinets-could be on top of my fridge or under my sink with all my cleaners-
:confused:

You never, never know from one provider to the next what they will change the story on. It is sooooo frustrating! Then they wonder why people don't want to become liscensed!

sharlan
07-07-2011, 02:47 PM
I've had knives in a drawer w/ a kiddy lock be denied, but ok'd on the counter top.

mom2many
07-07-2011, 03:27 PM
I meant to say babies need to be placed in a playpen or swing AT TIMES for their safety. I'm not saying for hours at a time.

Exactly! I assumed that was what you'd meant when I agreed. :D

MarinaVanessa
07-07-2011, 06:03 PM
I've had knives in a drawer w/ a kiddy lock be denied, but ok'd on the counter top.

Me too. Mine is still there on countertop. :lol:

familyschoolcare
07-07-2011, 10:05 PM
I've had knives in a drawer w/ a kiddy lock be denied, but ok'd on the counter top.

I had the opposite problem had to put my knives in a drawer at 4/5 year old level instead of way back on the counter not in the reach of a 4/5 year old

Meeko
07-08-2011, 05:43 AM
In order to get our required 10 hours face to face training each year, our state provides a lady who does a class that does nothing but go over the rules manual. We attend these classes every year. It's a bit boring, but keeps me on top of changing regs. She told us something very important.

If a licensing inspector tells you you are in violation and you don't think so ASK TO SEE THE WRITTEN REG.

If they cannot show you, they cannot write you up. You cannot be written up on the whim of the inspector.

Also, get everything in writing. I email my licensor if I have any questions and ask for her to email me back. Another poster here suggested that too. It's your word against theirs if there is an argument over something. Of course they are going to side with each other and against you if it comes down to that.

Don't get me wrong......my licensing dept is pretty good and they like to get the message across that we are working together and not against each other....but things happen. Better to be prepared.