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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>2 Year Old Bully!
JJPlaycare 10:48 AM 05-04-2011
I am at a loss! I posted about this child before looking for advice! I have talked to his parents on SEVERAL occasions, let them know what I was doing, gave them ideas of what they can do.... I am to the point that I am going to give them a letter saying if his behavior doesn't change in X amount of time he is gone!! So I guess my question is how long do I give them the attempt to make things better? They obviously haven't put forth an effort like I have asked, so my letter may make them mad and they may leave, but thats life and I need to keep ALL the kids I am caring for safe and he is harmful!!! So they could get mad or they could take me seriously and make an attempt, whatever the outcome is I am ready to deal with it! Now I just need to know how much time to give them and also can I let my other families know that I have done this with him? Thanks for your help
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daycare 10:57 AM 05-04-2011
First off never disclose to other familes what arrangments you have with any families... that is private and personal information.

As for time, I would really think about the whole situation over all. Is the child going to put others at risk and you could possibly lose another good client out of it?

I have had to do this before, where I put the child on probation for 2 weeks. I drew up a probation contract and required the parents to sit down and understand the situations at hand. I made them sign the contract and they understood that if the beavior did not improve by the 2 weeks (10 days) mark then we would end out contract.

the parents were on board and signed..they knew what i was dealing with and admitted they had several issues at home. After a week I could see progress being made. I ended up terming about 3 months later as the behavior went right back to square one after the probation period wore off...

Someone on here brought up a good way to decide to term or not. They marked their calendar from the day the probelm started....30 days from that day if it were still a problem then she rid of the problem. I like that method...


One of the things that I just remembered too was that last year i had a kid that started here with behavior that was UNREAL... redirecting, time out, nothing worked... Finally I told the mom that I felt that the he could not care less if he had to do time out or any other form of disipline...

I gave the DCK two warings and then on strike 3 he was removed from the play area and giving them only books, the DCK had to do everything solo for the entire day...
After doing this a handful of times he eventually stopped the behavior and started listening....he is still here today..
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JJPlaycare 11:31 AM 05-04-2011
K the child JUST turned 2. He is a menace, to put it mildly! LOL He is an only and the first grand on both sides! He can talk GREAT, so NO that is not the problem! He knows how to say "I want a turn", I get a turn he done", "share, please", pretty much everything that has to do with sharing, taking turns, manners - everything! I have taught him good words to use to get a turn and to wait for a turn and to share, we have practiced this religiously - it is his actions that I can't get rid of and they just keep comming! I have been COMPLETELY consistent with him and have tried several different things to bite his behavior in the butt and NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is working! His parents are aware of what is going on here as we have had SEVERAL discussions about it and I have given them different things they could do at home and told them that THEY needed to set up playdates for him, inside and outside of his home, go to ECFE classes! I told her to do the playdate thing so she could see just WHAT I was talking about, because she claims they don't see this behavior at home! She has seen him in action here though........ He hits me for crying out loud!! He is a bully to all the kids, but he really takes it out on a boy I have here who is the same age as him! He wants what everyone else HAS, he will, kick, bite, scratch, pinch, take, wrestle for whatever! I am sooooo tired of it! I cannot turn my back on him! It is CONSTANT and I mean CONSTANT! I currently have 9 kids in care and this summer will have 11, one of those kids is my 4 month old in which I am trying to nurse! I REALLY don't have time to follow him around like a hawk and I am sick of it!! Yes the other kids are being hurt and I am sure their parents are tired of it, they haven't said anything, but I can feel it! No child is perfect and their children sometimes have behaviors, whose don't, but this child is so constant and I don't feel like I am getting anywhere! I need Nanny 911 and I am a daycare provider! Friday he bit a child, today the same child has scratch marks on his cheek from being hit by him! I am nervous for his mother to come and that is why I asked if I could somehow let my other families know I am doing something about it! I know there are privacy issues, but they all KNOW what child I am talking about! I don't have to tell them their children do and they see if for themselves! Can I say I am working diligently on the issue and leave it at that? I just need her to know that I am working on the problem so in the mean time she doesn't get mad and leave or something and I need to know how to do this without breaking the privacy rules!! I appreciate your thoughts advice and anything you have to offer! I am going to put up a seperate post about sample probation contracts! I have never had to do this and I feel like I am giving up, but I am sick of living my day watching and making sure he doesn't hurt anyone, it is ridiculous!!!
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daycare 11:36 AM 05-04-2011
So LIC says we are not supposed to inform the parents who hit, kick, bit, etc. However, as you stated the kids are able to be verbal and tell the parents who did it.

In this case, I would talk to the victims paretns and let them know that you are trying to put an end to it and that you are not ignoring it.
Wow this really sounds like a DCB that I had. The mom was in the dark about his BAD behavior and she was a school teacher.
I tried everything I could, but the issue with the child was that there was NO consistency in schedule, daily routine...

How often does this child come to DC?
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JJPlaycare 11:43 AM 05-04-2011
He comes 4 days a week!! I am not sure why he isn't getting it!!! I have NEVER had a child like him before! Honestly he is just flat out MEAN!
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daycare 11:46 AM 05-04-2011
how long has he been there? wow that is crazy... but it sounds like this goes on becuse mom and dad don't do anything about it.... a child coping with their emotions is hard to deal with. My 3.5 year old sometimes still has blow outs with his behavior becuase he gets so upset...
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JJPlaycare 11:58 AM 05-04-2011
He has been here since he was 6 months old! The behavior started when I added a child the same age as him.... However he does it to ALL of the kids, just the majority is taken out on the same aged child! I don't know I feel like I have done everything right here and he is just thick headed or something! I have been doing in home childcare for almost 7 years and have never had this BIG of a problem! I have done everything the same with him as I would have any other child I have dealt with that had behavior issues come up! I don't know I feel like I get rid of his hitting, then kicking starts, I get rid of his kicking and then scratching starts, get rid of that and hitting starts again! He has bitten all along!! I don't know it is a never ending battle! I think if his parents would get him around kids and wouldn't GIVE him EVERYTHING he wants we might get somewhere! I don't know he surely RULES THE ROOST at home and it isn't hard to see! Like when she gets here at the end of the day: He won't leave, tells her no, takes toys from the kids and she just stands there, watches and in a whiney high pitched voice says "lets go", "you shouldn't do that", "give that back", but NEVER makes him do anything! I get SOOOOO sick of it that I pick him up, bring him down to my entryway and walk back up the stairs and shut the door! I take him off of the swing set him out of the sandbox and tell him to go! She will let this go on for 15-20 mins EVERYDAY! I don't think she has EVER picked him up and MADE him leave!!! One day she came and I was cleaning up snack and some of the kids where down and she was standing by my gate trying to persuade him to leave when I heard the 2 year olds start bickering I went running over there and pulled him off the other 2 year old who he was trying to bite, while she just stood right there next to them and LITTERALLY watched it happen and DID NOTHING! UGH I don't know that is them and it is NOT me and not how I run my show!
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daycare 12:05 PM 05-04-2011
wow its def time for a talk with the bullys parents... I am jaw dropped
have you read the Nannyde artice changing of the guard? You should really read it.. She is Brilliant!!! Like nanny 911 but for DC. she is strict, but I love her ways because they work.

If you cant find the article, I think I copied it and saved it so i could find it for you...

This behavior from the child cannot continue. Not for your sake, the others or the child... Letting it go on does not teach him anything...

I feel for you..hang in there... Hopefully you will get the parents to work with you on this. However, please read the article.....
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Christian Mother 12:39 PM 05-04-2011
I would call a Daycare Facility and ask them how they work with parent and daycare staff on children that act out like this.

When my son was 2 yrs old he was a bitter. At nap time he bit a girl so hard she bleed. The staff called me and asked me to come and pick him up from care. He was a suspended 2 yr old for 2 days. At the time I was upset at the facility for suspended him..it put me at a inconvenience but also I was upset at my son. How dare they is how I felt...now I know better.

Put the behavior right back on the parents. I would have a meeting with both mom and dad. Maybe, "if allowed"... video tape play time and interactions. So parents can see upfront and personal what you are trying to get a crossed. Explain that there are new procedures that you are putting in affect such as sending home a child for biting or for any behavior you deem not exceptionable or safe. If your parents of this child get up set in any way tell them at this point you are putting this in affect bc it's the last straw and you'd really like to work with him and not just term him. Let them you YOU are NOT giving up on this child. However, this type of behavior has been going on way to long with out any improvements. You have a responsibility to unsure each child's safely if any child was seriously hurt bc of this child your the provider will be found at fault. Either these parents will work with you and try there best to help with changing his behavior or they don't and you continue to send this child home. The parents are not going to be happy with continually having to miss work bc of his behavior. And trust me other places will do the same. Specially facilities....they just don't mess with that type of behavior. It could mean a lawsuit if there was a major injury.
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nannyde 01:52 PM 05-04-2011
Jp

do you have nine kids by yourself? If so are they all there at one time? What is your max daily kids and do you have a staff assistant?
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nannyde 05:29 PM 05-04-2011
Originally Posted by JJPlaycare:
K the child JUST turned 2. He is a menace, to put it mildly! LOL He is an only and the first grand on both sides! He can talk GREAT, so NO that is not the problem! He knows how to say "I want a turn", I get a turn he done", "share, please", pretty much everything that has to do with sharing, taking turns, manners - everything! I have taught him good words to use to get a turn and to wait for a turn and to share, we have practiced this religiously - it is his actions that I can't get rid of and they just keep comming! I have been COMPLETELY consistent with him and have tried several different things to bite his behavior in the butt and NOTHING, and I mean NOTHING is working! His parents are aware of what is going on here as we have had SEVERAL discussions about it and I have given them different things they could do at home and told them that THEY needed to set up playdates for him, inside and outside of his home, go to ECFE classes! I told her to do the playdate thing so she could see just WHAT I was talking about, because she claims they don't see this behavior at home! She has seen him in action here though........ He hits me for crying out loud!! He is a bully to all the kids, but he really takes it out on a boy I have here who is the same age as him! He wants what everyone else HAS, he will, kick, bite, scratch, pinch, take, wrestle for whatever! I am sooooo tired of it! I cannot turn my back on him! It is CONSTANT and I mean CONSTANT! I currently have 9 kids in care and this summer will have 11, one of those kids is my 4 month old in which I am trying to nurse! I REALLY don't have time to follow him around like a hawk and I am sick of it!! Yes the other kids are being hurt and I am sure their parents are tired of it, they haven't said anything, but I can feel it! No child is perfect and their children sometimes have behaviors, whose don't, but this child is so constant and I don't feel like I am getting anywhere! I need Nanny 911 and I am a daycare provider! Friday he bit a child, today the same child has scratch marks on his cheek from being hit by him! I am nervous for his mother to come and that is why I asked if I could somehow let my other families know I am doing something about it! I know there are privacy issues, but they all KNOW what child I am talking about! I don't have to tell them their children do and they see if for themselves! Can I say I am working diligently on the issue and leave it at that? I just need her to know that I am working on the problem so in the mean time she doesn't get mad and leave or something and I need to know how to do this without breaking the privacy rules!! I appreciate your thoughts advice and anything you have to offer! I am going to put up a seperate post about sample probation contracts! I have never had to do this and I feel like I am giving up, but I am sick of living my day watching and making sure he doesn't hurt anyone, it is ridiculous!!!
To the parents of:

Little Johnny's behavior in child care is becoming increasingly difficult to manage in the group setting. When children reach the age of two they often have some physical acting out which in my experience is manageable with redirection and verbal prompts.

Little Johnny is not responding to normal methods of discipline and correction. I have also seen numerous situations during arrival and departure where he is acting out and not responding to the verbal redirections you have given him. After speaking with you specifically about this, I am convinced that he is only doing this in my setting. Your account of his home behavior is so drastically different than what I'm seeing in my care that I'm certain the only rationale for such immense difference IS my setting.

I'm relieved to know he is so well behaved at home. This shows me clearly that he HAS the ability to behave like a little gentleman. It's just not happening here which causes us all great concern.

The behaviors he is having here are violent. He is aggressive with the other children to the point that he is comrimising my ability to safely supervise and care for them. The amount of attention he needs moment to moment far surpasses that of the other children.

I want to be clear with you that this is NOT because of his age. I have had many children from birth to five and his behavior is not reflective of any normal stage of any age. Despite an inordinate amount of minute to minute intervention and redirection he continues to kick, hit, and bite the other kids. He is clearly understanding what is expected of him and directly refuses to follow my expectations.

I know that it is impossible for you to work on this behavior at home because you are not seeing his obstinence and defiance at your home. I do, however, see that he is behaving poorly when you arrive and depart and while he is here during the day.

Begining tomorrow you will need to take ahold of his behavior when you are arriving and departing. This means he is to behave and follow MY rules while you are in my home with him. If he acts out in any way you are to take him outside and correct the behavior. He is not to enter my home or be in my home while acting out.

I am willing to work with him for two more weeks to correct his behavior. During this time you must be available to come and get him should he refuse my direction. I will give him two warnings to correct and then he will need to be picked up. I will text/call you with both warnings so you can make the preparations you need to have him picked up. On the third offense he will be separated from the children completely until you arrive.

I highly suggest you begin looking for other arrangements for him. His behavior is so drastically different between my home and your care that I really feel he needs an environment that more clearly mimics the care he receives at your home. If you would like to pull him immediately, please feel free to do so without notice. I will not hold you financially responsible for our termination agreement. I want what is best for Johnny and understand completely if you are unable to comply to my plan of picking him up from care.

My plan will begin tomorrow should you decide to continue care. Please sign and return this notice if you should decide to use our services during this two week period. Should Johnny's behavior show immediate and postive changes we will be happy to continue to offer services. Otherwise please accept this as a two week notice effective immediately.
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squareone 06:30 PM 05-04-2011
Originally Posted by Christian Mother:
...When my son was 2 yrs old he was a bitter. At nap time he bit a girl so hard she bleed. The staff called me and asked me to come and pick him up from care. He was a suspended 2 yr old for 2 days.

Put the behavior right back on the parents... Explain that there are new procedures that you are putting in affect such as sending home a child for biting or for any behavior you deem not exceptionable or safe. If your parents of this child get up set in any way tell them at this point you are putting this in affect bc it's the last straw and you'd really like to work with him and not just term him. Let them you YOU are NOT giving up on this child. However, this type of behavior has been going on way to long with out any improvements. You have a responsibility to unsure each child's safely if any child was seriously hurt bc of this child your the provider will be found at fault. Either these parents will work with you and try there best to help with changing his behavior or they don't and you continue to send this child home. The parents are not going to be happy with continually having to miss work bc of his behavior. And trust me other places will do the same. Specially facilities....they just don't mess with that type of behavior. It could mean a lawsuit if there was a major injury.
Yes! I agree that that during the probationary period, the child should be picked up for any unruly and unsafe behaviors that he exhibits.

Originally Posted by nannyde:
To the parents of:

Little Johnny's behavior in child care is becoming increasingly difficult to manage in the group setting. When children reach the age of two they often have some physical acting out which in my experience is manageable with redirection and verbal prompts.

Little Johnny is not responding to normal methods of discipline and correction. I have also seen numerous situations during arrival and departure where he is acting out and not responding to the verbal redirections you have given him. After speaking with you specifically about this, I am convinced that he is only doing this in my setting. Your account of his home behavior is so drastically different than what I'm seeing in my care that I'm certain the only rationale for such immense difference IS my setting.

I'm relieved to know he is so well behaved at home. This shows me clearly that he HAS the ability to behave like a little gentleman. It's just not happening here which causes us all great concern.

The behaviors he is having here are violent. He is aggressive with the other children to the point that he is comrimising my ability to safely supervise and care for them. The amount of attention he needs moment to moment far surpasses that of the other children.

I want to be clear with you that this is NOT because of his age. I have had many children from birth to five and his behavior is not reflective of any normal stage of any age. Despite an inordinate amount of minute to minute intervention and redirection he continues to kick, hit, and bite the other kids. He is clearly understanding what is expected of him and directly refuses to follow my expectations.

I know that it is impossible for you to work on this behavior at home because you are not seeing his obstinence and defiance at your home. I do, however, see that he is behaving poorly when you arrive and depart and while he is here during the day.

Begining tomorrow you will need to take ahold of his behavior when you are arriving and departing. This means he is to behave and follow MY rules while you are in my home with him. If he acts out in any way you are to take him outside and correct the behavior. He is not to enter my home or be in my home while acting out.

I am willing to work with him for two more weeks to correct his behavior. During this time you must be available to come and get him should he refuse my direction. I will give him two warnings to correct and then he will need to be picked up. I will text/call you with both warnings so you can make the preparations you need to have him picked up. On the third offense he will be separated from the children completely until you arrive.

I highly suggest you begin looking for other arrangements for him. His behavior is so drastically different between my home and your care that I really feel he needs an environment that more clearly mimics the care he receives at your home. If you would like to pull him immediately, please feel free to do so without notice. I will not hold you financially responsible for our termination agreement. I want what is best for Johnny and understand completely if you are unable to comply to my plan of picking him up from care.

My plan will begin tomorrow should you decide to continue care. Please sign and return this notice if you should decide to use our services during this two week period. Should Johnny's behavior show immediate and postive changes we will be happy to continue to offer services. Otherwise please accept this as a two week notice effective immediately.
Defninitely saving this and tucking it away for when I will inevitably need a letter like this. I am fortunate enough to have a great group of kiddos right now. ***knocking on wood***
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JJPlaycare 08:13 AM 05-05-2011
I am licensed to care for up to 12 children by myself! I usually have that many in the summer and I hire a teenager to help me during the summer months! During the school year I usually have 10 or so! I currently have 9 children that are here and this is what my week looks like!

Monday
2 year old 7 - 5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30-5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter, Preschool: leaves at 7am and returns at 11am) Girl
3 year old (Preschool arrives at 11am stays till 5pm) Boy
6 year old (My daughter gets off of the bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Tuesday
2 year old 7 - 5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter) Girl
4 year old (She rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Wednesday (Always my FULL day)
2 year old 7-5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter arrives at 11am after preschool) Girl
3 year old (Preschool arrives at 11am stays until 5pm) Boy
4 year old (Rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Thursday
2 year old 7 -5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter) Girl
3 year old 7 - 5pm Boy
4 year old (Rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Friday
2 year old 7 - 5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter) Girl
4 year old (Rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Once summer comes I add two school age Girls a 7 and 9 year old!! 7 year old is full time 7-4:15 and the 9 year old is 3 days a week 7:30-5!

I also have a mom who is expecting in October! : )
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daycare 08:51 AM 05-05-2011
wow how do you do it?? that is a lot of kids for one person to take on...
You my friend are brave..lol
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nannyde 09:13 AM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by JJPlaycare:
I am licensed to care for up to 12 children by myself! I usually have that many in the summer and I hire a teenager to help me during the summer months! During the school year I usually have 10 or so! I currently have 9 children that are here and this is what my week looks like!

Monday
2 year old 7 - 5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30-5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter, Preschool: leaves at 7am and returns at 11am) Girl
3 year old (Preschool arrives at 11am stays till 5pm) Boy
6 year old (My daughter gets off of the bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Tuesday
2 year old 7 - 5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter) Girl
4 year old (She rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Wednesday (Always my FULL day)
2 year old 7-5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter arrives at 11am after preschool) Girl
3 year old (Preschool arrives at 11am stays until 5pm) Boy
4 year old (Rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Thursday
2 year old 7 -5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter) Girl
3 year old 7 - 5pm Boy
4 year old (Rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Friday
2 year old 7 - 5pm (Not the problem child) Boy
2 year old 7 - 4pm (Problem child) Boy
4 year old 7-4:15pm Boy
3 year old 7:30 - 5pm Girl
4 year old (My daughter) Girl
4 year old (Rotates 2 days one week, 4 days the next week 2:30-5) Girl
6 year old (My daughter gets off of bus at 3:45pm) Girl
4 month old (My son) Boy

Once summer comes I add two school age Girls a 7 and 9 year old!! 7 year old is full time 7-4:15 and the 9 year old is 3 days a week 7:30-5!

I also have a mom who is expecting in October! : )
YIKES that's a lot
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Mrs.Ky 09:16 AM 05-05-2011
You really shouldnt assume the parents arent doing what they are suppose to be doing unless you know for sure. It could be more then just a parenting problem he could have some kind of special need, he could be abused, etc. I speak from experince my middle child was very agressive as a toddler, had alot of behavior problems till age 6 when I knew it was NOT a parenting problem on my part like everyone thought at the school he actually has something wrong with him he is ADHD with behavioral therpay and the right meds he is a sweet, well behaved, loving little boy Im not saying this boy is ADHD but he could have something wrong with him so you should look into that further not just pointing the finger at the parents.
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nannyde 09:36 AM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Mrs.Ky:
You really shouldnt assume the parents arent doing what they are suppose to be doing unless you know for sure. It could be more then just a parenting problem he could have some kind of special need, he could be abused, etc. I speak from experince my middle child was very agressive as a toddler, had alot of behavior problems till age 6 when I knew it was NOT a parenting problem on my part like everyone thought at the school he actually has something wrong with him he is ADHD with behavioral therpay and the right meds he is a sweet, well behaved, loving little boy Im not saying this boy is ADHD but he could have something wrong with him so you should look into that further not just pointing the finger at the parents.
Yes this is true. That's why I wrote this:

Little Johnny is not responding to normal methods of discipline and correction. I have also seen numerous situations during arrival and departure where he is acting out and not responding to the verbal redirections you have given him. After speaking with you specifically about this, I am convinced that he is only doing this in my setting. Your account of his home behavior is so drastically different than what I'm seeing in my care that I'm certain the only rationale for such immense difference IS my setting.

This states that what the provider sees is the poor behavior in her setting AND the one time she DOES see the child with the parents the child is behaving badly. That's all she can speak to.

Her account of the time she DOES see the parent dealing with his poor behavior is this: (and keep in mind these are parent observations of 15-20 minutes each time... over a period of many many months)

Like when she gets here at the end of the day: He won't leave, tells her no, takes toys from the kids and she just stands there, watches and in a whiney high pitched voice says "lets go", "you shouldn't do that", "give that back", but NEVER makes him do anything! I get SOOOOO sick of it that I pick him up, bring him down to my entryway and walk back up the stairs and shut the door! I take him off of the swing set him out of the sandbox and tell him to go! She will let this go on for 15-20 mins EVERYDAY! I don't think she has EVER picked him up and MADE him leave!!! One day she came and I was cleaning up snack and some of the kids where down and she was standing by my gate trying to persuade him to leave when I heard the 2 year olds start bickering I went running over there and pulled him off the other 2 year old who he was trying to bite, while she just stood right there next to them and LITTERALLY watched it happen and DID NOTHING!

So my advice is to assume the parent is telling the truth and only speak to what you KNOW FOR SURE.

She knows for SURE that the child is behaving violently and disrespectfully around the parent and the parent does NOTHING at all to MAKE HIM STOP. She isn't guessing about it... she knows it for SURE.
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Live and Learn 09:44 AM 05-05-2011
JJ,

To be honest I would term any child who you would title "problem child" on a public forum if you know what I mean.

Obviously the love is gone. You deserve better and so does the child.

Keeping kids safe is your #1 job. The other dc kids aren't safe with the bully around. He would have been gone a long time ago here.

Good luck
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JJPlaycare 09:53 AM 05-05-2011
I am NOT completely pointing my finger at the parents! I said what I said about the parents due to some of the things I have seen them DO or NOT do for that matter! I talked to the mom last night again told her that I am still having some behavioral issues with him and that I think now our next step is to sit down and have a meeting and talk about this on a further measure! I asked her to talk to her husband and to get back to me on what night works best for them! We talked more about what is going on and I told her that it is my job as a childcare provider to provide a safe, happy and healthy environment for all of the kids I am caring for and I am having a hard time doing that with her childs behavior! I ALSO said that this will be for the best interest of her child as well! In the beginning I thought it was just a phase and thought it had nothing to do with lack of dicipline, alot of children express behaviors when they lack communication skills and the result of the outcome of those behaviors is all due to how we react to them and how we handle them! This is dragging on and on and on and he just keeps adding new ones! I at this point DO NOT think it is entirely the parents fault. Obviously this child needs help and support from all parties involved and that is why I am taking the steps to correct this and make a difference for him!! Whatever it may be ADHD, lack of dicipline it needs to be corrected and it needs to happen now! I was just trying to explain his behavior and explain his life style and what I have seen, he certainly could have an underlying condition and that is why I as a childCARE provider is trying to get to the bottom of it in the best way I possibly can, but with all do respect to all of the other families I care for that might need to be termination! Is that fair to this child, nope not at all - sounds as if I would be giving up on him at that point, but I have talked to the parents on several different occasions and I have tried several different things here to correct it and obviously NOTHING is working! Maybe it is me and maybe it is the other kids and the environment, I am not entirely sure, but that is why I am doing what I am doing to sort it out and figure out the best route for this child and it might not be me or the environment I provide! Thank you for pointing out the ADHD situation and giving an example where you have seen it, I will take this with me and will keep trying to figure this all out! However, if it is not corrected or if he is not showing progress then I need to do what is best for the rest of my families and he needs to move on because it OBVIOUSLY wouldn't be healthy for him to stay here because something isn't working here!
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seashell 09:55 AM 05-05-2011
I had a child who exhibited similar behavior on my center and I eventually terminated. I love the letter Nannyde, but...

I sent the boy who was causing the disruptions home on several occasions. What I found was it only reinforced the negative behavior. He realized that if he hit, kicked, bit, etc. he could go home with grandma. She felt sorry for him that the mean daycare sent him home, so she would take him to the park, for icecream, etc. Not saying that this would happen in your case, just something to think about.
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Mrs.Ky 10:00 AM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Yes this is true. That's why I wrote this:

Little Johnny is not responding to normal methods of discipline and correction. I have also seen numerous situations during arrival and departure where he is acting out and not responding to the verbal redirections you have given him. After speaking with you specifically about this, I am convinced that he is only doing this in my setting. Your account of his home behavior is so drastically different than what I'm seeing in my care that I'm certain the only rationale for such immense difference IS my setting.

This states that what the provider sees is the poor behavior in her setting AND the one time she DOES see the child with the parents the child is behaving badly. That's all she can speak to.

Her account of the time she DOES see the parent dealing with his poor behavior is this: (and keep in mind these are parent observations of 15-20 minutes each time... over a period of many many months)

Like when she gets here at the end of the day: He won't leave, tells her no, takes toys from the kids and she just stands there, watches and in a whiney high pitched voice says "lets go", "you shouldn't do that", "give that back", but NEVER makes him do anything! I get SOOOOO sick of it that I pick him up, bring him down to my entryway and walk back up the stairs and shut the door! I take him off of the swing set him out of the sandbox and tell him to go! She will let this go on for 15-20 mins EVERYDAY! I don't think she has EVER picked him up and MADE him leave!!! One day she came and I was cleaning up snack and some of the kids where down and she was standing by my gate trying to persuade him to leave when I heard the 2 year olds start bickering I went running over there and pulled him off the other 2 year old who he was trying to bite, while she just stood right there next to them and LITTERALLY watched it happen and DID NOTHING!

So my advice is to assume the parent is telling the truth and only speak to what you KNOW FOR SURE.

She knows for SURE that the child is behaving violently and disrespectfully around the parent and the parent does NOTHING at all to MAKE HIM STOP. She isn't guessing about it... she knows it for SURE.
Makes you wonder if the parent even knows how to handle it too. My Son never responded to punishments either till I also got some parenting therpay to be showed how to handle my special needs child. Maybe she can give the parent some resources so she can get some classes, read books, etc. to help her also cope with this child Im sure her child is no walk in the park either for her. I know its so hard to deal with misbehaving children but it breaks my heart when they are just thrown out of daycare, schools like trash and no one wants to help them. I also had a little boy who misbehaved in care they found out her has SPD I never gave up on him thou he ended up going to a special pre school program when he was 3 but what I did was read up online and figure out how to handle it I didnt wanna give up on him.
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JJPlaycare 10:13 AM 05-05-2011
I knew me righting "Problem child" on here would cause someone concern! LOL I didn't know how to put it I was going to right "bully" guess that should have been better! : S I do love this child and want it to work! That is why I have been diligently trying my DARNDEST to make it work and I have been hovering and trying to keep everyone safe! My nursing 4 month old doesn't know how to eat steadily he constantly is pulling on and off because I think this is how I have nursed him since he was born because I ALWAYS have to interrupt his feedings to intervene with ONE child! He now just eats like this! All of the other kids and alot of kids I have raised have to be warned and told and they will stop! Not him I have to physically remove him from a situation EVERYTIME and it really is disruptive yes I know and yes it is my job to keep everyone safe so that is why at this point I feel I have done everything I could and this is my last straw and if it doesn't start improving he is out!
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Live and Learn 10:16 AM 05-05-2011
Why are you keeping him?
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nannyde 10:35 AM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by Mrs.Ky:
I know its so hard to deal with misbehaving children but it breaks my heart when they are just thrown out of daycare, schools like trash and no one wants to help them.
I don't agree with this. I don't think it's the "place" of home providers (especiallly when they are alone during the day) to even attempt to work with children with this kind of behavior. We have to KNOW when the child's needs are NOT being met and gladly turn that over to more qualified personelle.

Instead of seeing it as "thown out like trash"... I like to see it as "escorted out on a silver platter".

Day care providers should NOT keep children and work with parents that are too hard to manage. You should KNOW inside yourself what you can and can't do and turn away children and parents that are beyond your abilities.
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JJPlaycare 10:41 AM 05-05-2011
Why am I keeping him? Well I may or may not be! This post sounds absolutely horrible in which it is.... However I would like to say this since it has been mentioned that the love is obviously gone! In which is NOT true what so ever, if the love was gone he would have been out a LONG time ago! I show my love over and over again by continueing to try along with countless other ways!! I will continue to show my love by terminating this child if things aren't improving greatly in the next few weeks! My love will be shown in this simply because it isn't working, the child needs help from someone who can give it to him in a better manner than I! If my consistency, my structure, myself, my group and my home are not working for him than why would I keep him here - that would NOT be loving!! My last resort is to get everyone on board NOW, not tomorrow, not next week, not in a month, NOW! If at that point things aren't comming around well then he needs to move on because I simply can't do for him what he needs and by myself making that decision is LOVE in itself! The reasons why I want it to work and not want him to leave goes on and on, however I didn't explain these reasons because that isn't the problem at hand! But since this post sounds horrible I am going to list just a few reasons why I LOVE having him here to show that the Love isn't gone: Every morning my door pops open and he greets me with the grinnyiest "Good Morning Megan!" He is as cute as a bugs ear and even though there is mischief behind his smile he has one alot of the day and I love that about him! He is squishy and loveable and always is willing to give me a hug! He is adventurous, imaginitive and fun! His parents are respectful of my hours! They are considerate and understanding if I need time off! They ALWAYS pay on time! They show up on time and call if they will be late at dropping him off even if it is for 5 mins! The love certainly isn't gone and I could go on and on to show this! He has some behavior issues that are aggressive and that is all and I came on here looking for advice on what my next step should be! I do certainly love and care for him just as much as I do all of the families I care for and that is why I have tried and why I will term if need be!
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nannyde 10:48 AM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by JJPlaycare:
I will continue to show my love by terminating this child if things aren't improving greatly in the next few weeks!


And the winner winner chicken dinner line:

My last resort is to get everyone on board NOW, not tomorrow, not next week, not in a month, NOW!

Not a week from Tuesday?


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JJPlaycare 10:50 AM 05-05-2011
NannyDe That is all!
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JJPlaycare 11:20 AM 05-05-2011
A week from Tuesday is termination day if there isn't everyone on board and some major improvements!
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jojosmommy 11:25 AM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by JJPlaycare:
He has been here since he was 6 months old! The behavior started when I added a child the same age as him.... However he does it to ALL of the kids, just the majority is taken out on the same aged child!
IMO this is the problem. My mild mannered son who has a very good vocab has in the last 3-4 months increased his hitting, wrestling etc of another child very close to his age. He too will do it to anyone close however if he and this particular child are in different rooms. He has never scratched, bit or caused marks to anyone though. My son just turned 2 so at first I felt like "oh great terrible twos." I started watching and this other little boy does very little things to set him off. When I say XX there is a train, can you pick that up? This other child runs over and snatches it before my son can get it. This other child intentionally sits next to my son when we are waiting for the bathroom and breathes on him (in his ear) or gives him "grumpy eyes". I started watching very closely at the other kids and now I see it is aggravated first by something.

I do not condone hitting, wrestling, etc. I do not allow it in my home however I am now more aware of the fact that one is fighting with his hands and the other with his mind. Now I call them both out when this happens so that the sneakier one doesnt think he can get away with this.

You said the mom says she never sees the behavior elsewhere and I can attest to this too. My son plays in a number of play groups and NEVER does this. He doesnt even do it when this other kid is not at daycare but the rest of the kids are.

We are teaching my son what he can do with his hands. He currently knows he can give moochies (kisses hand then blows it to friend), snuggles (hugs) high fives or pats on the back. EVERYTIME he offends he takes a break with me and then we remind him. "What can we do with our hands?" He has the understanding but lacks the foresight to do it BEFORE hitting etc. I think it takes a long time to teach kids to think BEFORE they react. And ALOT OF PAITENCE. I have passed over taking other young ones at this time b/c I know I need to be more one on one until he learns not to wrestle, hit etc.

It sounds like with all the kids you have and the nursing you don't have the time to put in the work to train a more stubborn child like this. If you think you are going to lose others you might want to drop him- especially if he is causing marks etc.
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Mrs.Ky 12:04 PM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I don't agree with this. I don't think it's the "place" of home providers (especiallly when they are alone during the day) to even attempt to work with children with this kind of behavior. We have to KNOW when the child's needs are NOT being met and gladly turn that over to more qualified personelle.

Instead of seeing it as "thown out like trash"... I like to see it as "escorted out on a silver platter".

Day care providers should NOT keep children and work with parents that are too hard to manage. You should KNOW inside yourself what you can and can't do and turn away children and parents that are beyond your abilities.
Teachers, providers, etc should HAVE to take classes on how to deal with children like this instead of getting rid of them there are alot of children out there with special needs these days. I see it as throwing them out like trash as I have dealt with this first hand and you dont really know till its your child who is treated like this. I didnt mean that the provider above is doing this its just I have seen it with my own child because the teachers didnt have the education on how to interact with a special needs child they do have school for such children that are HIGHLY expensive and middle class families such as myself cant afford them. Im not sure if there are childcare centers or homes like this or not would be nice if there are so parents have a choice to take there child somewhere where the child wont be kicked out of somewhere else every other month.
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Live and Learn 12:06 PM 05-05-2011
I hear ya',

Like I said he would have been long gone here. I keep a non violent daycare so that everyone can remain safe.

It will be an act of kindness when you term him and send him him lovingly on towards a provider who probably has way fewer children so that they have the time to shadow him and give him a fresh start.

When I say "the love is gone" it is obvious from all of your exclamation points and capital letters that you are not loving the situation that you are choosing to remain in.

Good luck.
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Mrs.Ky 12:07 PM 05-05-2011
Originally Posted by JJPlaycare:
Why am I keeping him? Well I may or may not be! This post sounds absolutely horrible in which it is.... However I would like to say this since it has been mentioned that the love is obviously gone! In which is NOT true what so ever, if the love was gone he would have been out a LONG time ago! I show my love over and over again by continueing to try along with countless other ways!! I will continue to show my love by terminating this child if things aren't improving greatly in the next few weeks! My love will be shown in this simply because it isn't working, the child needs help from someone who can give it to him in a better manner than I! If my consistency, my structure, myself, my group and my home are not working for him than why would I keep him here - that would NOT be loving!! My last resort is to get everyone on board NOW, not tomorrow, not next week, not in a month, NOW! If at that point things aren't comming around well then he needs to move on because I simply can't do for him what he needs and by myself making that decision is LOVE in itself! The reasons why I want it to work and not want him to leave goes on and on, however I didn't explain these reasons because that isn't the problem at hand! But since this post sounds horrible I am going to list just a few reasons why I LOVE having him here to show that the Love isn't gone: Every morning my door pops open and he greets me with the grinnyiest "Good Morning Megan!" He is as cute as a bugs ear and even though there is mischief behind his smile he has one alot of the day and I love that about him! He is squishy and loveable and always is willing to give me a hug! He is adventurous, imaginitive and fun! His parents are respectful of my hours! They are considerate and understanding if I need time off! They ALWAYS pay on time! They show up on time and call if they will be late at dropping him off even if it is for 5 mins! The love certainly isn't gone and I could go on and on to show this! He has some behavior issues that are aggressive and that is all and I came on here looking for advice on what my next step should be! I do certainly love and care for him just as much as I do all of the families I care for and that is why I have tried and why I will term if need be!
I didnt want you to think I was saying YOU where throwing your dcb out like trash I just meant ive seen it before and its been done to my own child at his school. Good luck I hope you and Mom have a good meeting and she understands where you are coming from if he doesnt improve he might do better in a smaller group or with a Nanny who can provide one on one care. I wish you and his Mother all the best of luck and hopefully he out grows it and he doesnt have anything wrong.
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Tags:bullying, terrible 2's
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