Organic Food vs. Child Care Fee

[Jenniferdawn]

Hi all. I'm about to set my child care fees and I'm wanting a little advise, particularly if you have an organic daycare. I will be providing all organic or pesticide free, all natural/grass fed, homemade, etc food to the children in my daycare. I believe very strongly in this and am excited about being able to make an impact in the children lives with great food, but the cost as you know is a good amount higher than if I fed them other food. So here's the question: Do you think parents will pay more for this? Right now, in my area, the average daily fee is $45. If you do think they would pay more, how much more? Any help would be great!

[Oneluckymom]

I'm curious about this too. I would like to know what extra cost of going organic is. Hopefully Nannyde will let us in on this...lol.

[Jenniferdawn]

Lol. I was thinking the same thing. Nannyde, help us!

[nannyde]

It just depends on how you do it.

I buy in season and store (freeze). If I bought it at the store as we used it weekly it would be a lot more money.

For me, the cost of the organic is in the labor of getting the meats, veggies, and fruit... and storing them. That's more than the actual money increase for the foods.

I buy whole pigs, a quarter of a beef, eigth of a bufallo, whole chickens, fifty pounds of veggies and fruit at one time, cook, and store. I get elk, venison, and fish donated. I spent yesterday morning defrosting one of the freezers. That took quite a few hours of work which I would NOT have if I wasn't buying in bulk for the organic, grass fed, free range etc.

I spend about five dollars a day on food for each kid. That's just the hard cost of the food. The labor for the organic would add about another two dollars per day per kid.

[Jenniferdawn]

I buy bulk for a lot too, but it is still more expensive than if I fed them conventional food. So, I guess I'm still wondering if you think parents would pay more for having this in the daycare or not. I'm not sure if I can raise may rate a few dollars higher than the local competition and still get parents who want to use me.

Also, do you post your in season recipes anywhere? I'd love to have a bit of help with some good daycare approved recipes that follow my philosophy of eating.

[PitterPatter]

Originally Posted by Jenniferdawn

Hi all. I'm about to set my child care fees and I'm wanting a little advise, particularly if you have an organic daycare. I will be providing all organic or pesticide free, all natural/grass fed, homemade, etc food to the children in my daycare. I believe very strongly in this and am excited about being able to make an impact in the children lives with great food, but the cost as you know is a good amount higher than if I fed them other food. So here's the question: Do you think parents will pay more for this? Right now, in my area, the average daily fee is $45. If you do think they would pay more, how much more? Any help would be great!

That is such a nice thought going organic! I would love to do all organic but I simply can't afford it. I do what I can when I can though. Especially the veggies and fruits. There is no way I could charge more for going all organic. Mainly because I have most state paid clients (most don't care what kids eat), I get a set rate and that's it. But even when I do get a private payer that cares about nutrition they don't care about organic so I couldn't charge more. They would just go to the next provider in line here.

Around here the parents don't seem impressed at all when I mention I use a lot of organic fruits and veggies. Some don't even know what that means exactly so I have to explain it. Most of my clients don't care what the kids eat. They have shown up here with a bag of doritos and a pepsi for breakfast. Now I did have 1 DCM in the past that did care that her child eat right but she wasn't sure what organic meant either. When I handed out info with the newsletter a couple were nay sayers that said they just stamp it organic to get more money and make you think it's healthier. I told them they can't do that there is a process and I would gladly get more info for them. They didn't care. Healthy eating DCM said just as long as her child was getting fruits and veggies she doesn't care where they came from.

I thought of her just recently when I watched Dr Oz and the Arsenic in Your Apple Juice. Gerber was the highest with arsenic content and that's what she brought her child with every morn. I wondered if she saw that on TV.

Does anyone else have clients that just don't care about organic?

Everything seems to differ around the states so things may be different in your area. Good luck to you I hope you can have the organic program and for the price you are seeking!

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by Jenniferdawn

I buy bulk for a lot too, but it is still more expensive than if I fed them conventional food. So, I guess I'm still wondering if you think parents would pay more for having this in the daycare or not. I'm not sure if I can raise may rate a few dollars higher than the local competition and still get parents who want to use me.

Also, do you post your in season recipes anywhere? I'd love to have a bit of help with some good daycare approved recipes that follow my philosophy of eating.

I think it depends on your area. I don't know for sure though because I've only done it for about a year and a half.

I think some parents will like it but few will pay for it. I also think there is a risk that it is a turn off for families where the parents eat processed food and feed that to their kids.

I don't know of any child care in my area that are doing organic and having it be a draw to the child care where parents will pay the providers fees PLUS the extra for the specialty foods.

I don't really charge for it. I have the same kids I had when I started and I haven't raised rates. I do it because that's what I want to feed kids.

I can say that I have had a marked decrease in illness in the child care. Dramatic decrease. I don't know that this is related to the food change but it has happened at the same time I switched to organic. It may be luck or good weather related (we had a mild winter and with the exception of one month.. a mild summer).

Unfortunately you can't really advertise the wellness aspect of it because it would place an expectation that the incoming child would be nearly illness free while in your care. I don't want to take the risk of parents having expectations like that so I just mention it but don't promise it.

The other thing I can say for sure is that the kids LOVE the food. They are the eatenest eaters around. The ALL eat ALL the food every day. They really love the taste of real food. It makes mealtime wonderful here.

Cooking with it is a learning curve. There's always something different to try but I stay really basic and make most stews and purees. My kids love themselves a big hearty bowl of meat, potatoes, veg or beans and rice. They REALLY love pureed fruits for desert and fresh baked whole grain fruit bread.

We keep it really plain and simple. It works for us. My son gets tired of it though. He would rather have Taco Bell

[Oneluckymom]

Thank Nannyde! I will give this a lot of thought too.

[AnneCordelia]

I think it really does depend on area. I tried to appeal to an organic crowd but the demand just isn't there in my area.

I did find that the push for whole foods is strong in this area, so although I don't serve strictly organics, I do serve homemade, whole foods and have found many families who want that instead of junk (nuggets, store-bought muffins, spaghettios, fish sticks, fries, ect). Nobody wanted to pay more for organic though and I got no phone calls from that ad.

We also buy our beef by the half, our chickens/turkey/duck/pheasant whole, and pork/lamb in bulk. I wish I had more space and time.

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by AnneCordelia

I think it really does depend on area. I tried to appeal to an organic crowd but the demand just isn't there in my area.

I did find that the push for whole foods is strong in this area, so although I don't serve strictly organics, I do serve homemade, whole foods and have found many families who want that instead of junk (nuggets, store-bought muffins, spaghettios, fish sticks, fries, ect). Nobody wanted to pay more for organic though and I got no phone calls from that ad.

We also buy our beef by the half, our chickens/turkey/duck/pheasant whole, and pork/lamb in bulk. I wish I had more space and time.

Oh yes.. lamb and phesant too.

I wish I had more space too. I don't think I'll have the space for a lamb this year. Having two full freezers is a good thing though.

I just found some yellow peas today. Mmmmm can't wait to try some home made lamb stew with yellow peas. Yummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmy

[AnneCordelia]

I've also got a few dozen quail growing out in the backyard too. It's a good lesson for my older children. We hatch, raise, and butcher them for the freezer. That's only a few meals worth but it's definitely fulfilling to eat what we raised!

They are definitely organic!

[Jenniferdawn]

I was told by a few mothers in my area (Sacramento, Ca) that there is only one other organic daycare here and she always has a long waiting list because of the food she prepares. I think here there is probably more awareness here than in other states about the importance of organic/free range etc. Only I can't get her on the phone to ask her about her daycare/fees etc.

[Meyou]

There are several organic dayhomes in my area but there was a gap in the vegetarian market that I saw. I was already serving whole, unprocessed food bought locally as much as possible so it wasn't hard to alter my menu. The response through word of mouth has been overwhelming. I was a little surprised. I don't charge more but I do have higher end rates for my area so perhaps they offset each other.

I also buy in bulk and freeze whenever possible. Actually last night I talked my DH into going to my aunt's in two weeks for an afternoon. She has an apple orchard and said we could pick what we could carry. He decided it was a good idea when I said if we take an afternoon we could pick enough apples to last until spring for free and just keep them in the garage. Yummy, pesticide free apples.....mmmmmmm. I hope he realizes I want him to pick 50 or 60lb.

[littlemommy]

I don't do everything organic, but all meats/milk are hormone and antibiotic free. All meals are made from scratch-no processed box meals here! I advertised once as being a clean eating, eco-friendly, cloth diaper friendly daycare. It got zero calls. Advertising in my town just doesn't return anything for anyone.

In our small town, it's easy to find hormone/antibiotic free meat and eggs from local farmers. Our local HyVee also has a decent selection of organic produce, and I grow plenty in my garden.

As far as parents go, every parent I have couldn't care less. Everyone eats processed junk for every meal at home. When I have problems with the kids eating here, I sometimes ask parents if they eat that at home. They say "oh, they like hot dogs, kraft mac n cheese, frozen pizza, hamburger helper..."
I continue to do it. It doesn't cost me a ton more than conventional food because I meal plan and stockpile foods that are on sale.

[justgettingstarted]

Wow! I'm in the Sacto area as well and am working on starting my organic/humanely raised foods daycare too. I'd love to chat more if you're interested, my email is kristin.brightbeginnings@gmail.com. Good luck!!

[Jenniferdawn]

Emailing you!

[Blackcat31]

So for you gals who go the complete organic route.....how do you purchase all your goods when you are on the food program? Are there special rules?

I am interested in the organic route but was told by our food program coordinator that EVERYTHING served must be purchased through a grocery store or be USDA certified. We are a big area of deer, elk (and yes Nan, moose ) etc and we cannot serve any of it to our dck's unless it was processed, inspected and approved by a USDA licensed inspector.

I didn't dig any deeper after being told that so I was wondering if anyone actually knows the rules about this. What about fresh produce, eggs, meat, fish or poultry we have caught or raised ourselves?

[Jenniferdawn]

Ohhhh, hmmm. Well, I haven't signed up yet with the food program cause I'm still in process of setting everything up, so I'm not sure what the rules are here. That's a good thing to look into. Where are you located? I imagine there are different regulation for different states about this sort of thing.

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Jenniferdawn

Ohhhh, hmmm. Well, I haven't signed up yet with the food program cause I'm still in process of setting everything up, so I'm not sure what the rules are here. That's a good thing to look into. Where are you located? I imagine there are different regulation for different states about this sort of thing.

I am in MN but the food program is a Federal program so the basic guidelines should all be the same but most of us on here have fugured out that some of the rules are interpreted differently between states and sponsers. I am unsure of what they are and aren't allowed to do differently for each state so if you do find out an answer be sure to post because I am definitley curious too....

[Jenniferdawn]

I just talked to the food program lady here and they accept all food as long as it is the types of food listed that cover. In fact, they support farmers markets, etc and encourage providers to use them and encourage people to make their own garden and they will reimburse for that too. I think being california, there is more openess to things like this maybe??

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Jenniferdawn

I just talked to the food program lady here and they accept all food as long as it is the types of food listed that cover. In fact, they support farmers markets, etc and encourage providers to use them and encourage people to make their own garden and they will reimburse for that too. I think being california, there is more openess to things like this maybe??

LOL! That's funny that you called her because I was curious as well. I was told fresh fruits and vegetables either purchased at a grocery store, farmer's market or home grown are okay. The same goes for vegetables and fruits you have personaly froze. However it is NOT okay to serve home-canned vegetables and/or fruits.

ALL meat (domestic and wild game), fish and poultry must be slaughtered, processed and packaged at a USDA approved facility. We cannot serve meat or wild game we have processed and packaged ourselves.

The same goes for milk and eggs. They must be purchased from approved sites and not local farmers in order to be credible for the food program.

My coordinator said the food program is a federal program and although each sponser is a separate entity and may interpret the rules differently they can be looked up on the USDA website. http://www.fns.usda.gov/cnd/care/Homes.htm

So after all that new knowledge, I feel like I just received a food training course. LOL!!

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

So for you gals who go the complete organic route.....how do you purchase all your goods when you are on the food program? Are there special rules?

I am interested in the organic route but was told by our food program coordinator that EVERYTHING served must be purchased through a grocery store or be USDA certified. We are a big area of deer, elk (and yes Nan, moose ) etc and we cannot serve any of it to our dck's unless it was processed, inspected and approved by a USDA licensed inspector.

I didn't dig any deeper after being told that so I was wondering if anyone actually knows the rules about this. What about fresh produce, eggs, meat, fish or poultry we have caught or raised ourselves?

I don't think it's that we can't serve it ... it's that it cant be counted as credible. All of the venison, elk, salmon, phesant, and bufallo we eat has been processed at a USDA certified facility. My donators don't do their own slaughter. They send it to a butcher to be processed.

I don't know about the eggs though. In Iowa you are allowed to sell eggs directly to the customer and slaughter your own chickens. We buy our chickens straight from the farm. They are AMAZING.

I also don't know about buying veg and fruit from the store. We grow our own and I buy directly from backyard farmers and orchards. One of the toughest things about the organic is weeding out who really is and who isn't. That's part of the LABOR costs. It's a huge learning curve and a lot of times it's just gut instinct.

I've never had a kid get sick off of my food so I must be doing something right. If the food program doesn't reimburse for something I feed I would just take the hit. I think the food I serve is very safe. I'm really careful about everything that the kids get.

www.EcoBabyChildcare.com

We are a unique early childhood education center.
We offer an Eco safe environment, promote a message of positive worldly consciousness and modern learning. We provide a safe, and developmentally appropriate environment for infant and toddler age children. Our focus is to provide loving & educational care. Each child's potential will be nurtured to build a strong foundation for their future, as well as the future of our world.

[MaritimeMummy]

I thought it was worthwhile to post a link to this home day care. (Not mine).

Located in Halifax, NS. Legally unlicensed. I'm linking directly to the rates, etc, but worthwhile to have a look at the entire website.

http://www.organicsouthendchildcare....formation.html

Keep in mind that the going rate in NS is anywhere from $25 (essentially slave labour, haha) to $35-$40 a day.

I am a very small home day care an hour away from this one. I don't do organic as a draw to parents but I do offer it whenever possible. I am not licensed also but am approved to operate through the Department of Community Services, which means I still have to operate according to day care standards and be inspected like a licensed day care. My rate is $30 a day, and I am considering raising to $35.

I hope this helps when considering your rates.

[Willow]

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

The same goes for vegetables and fruits you have personaly froze. However it is NOT okay to serve home-canned vegetables and/or fruits.

ALL meat (domestic and wild game), fish and poultry must be slaughtered, processed and packaged at a USDA approved facility. We cannot serve meat or wild game we have processed and packaged ourselves.

I was told the same things, thinking we may be on the same program?

We hunt and fish and can loads as we hunt right here on our own property and keep a giant garden. I too was told the game we harvest is not credible as there is no way to prove that appropriate/sanitary field dressing methods were practiced. Any meat product must be slaughtered right there in a USDA slaughterhouse and processed via their standards. Nothing taken out in the field is credible.

We do not believe game "farms" are ethical so although I think venison in particular is incredibly healthy I don't feed it if that's the only way I can get it.


With the canning I was told same thing, there is no way to verify sanitary processing. My food rep shared a story of coming in on a provider canning once. There were flies everywhere along with full fly strips hanging above the sink where she was working. Many of the jars of what she had canned in the days earlier never actually sealed and the food was bound to spoil. She saw no problem with that saying canned foods cannot spoil and said if anything it added flavor

Although it was a thorn in my side not being able to share what I preserve I do understand the reason behind the rule.

Program rep said just about anything you can you can freeze. I started doing it last year and it actually works just as well, stores better I have a freezer near stocked corner to corner with flat ziplock bags full of fruits and veggies and it cuts the work involved by a ton!

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by Willow

I was told the same things, thinking we may be on the same program?

I was with Provider's Choice (17+ yrs) but switched to Child Care Choices about 2 years ago. LOVE my current rep!

Originally Posted by Willow

Although it was a thorn in my side not being able to share what I preserve I do understand the reason behind the rule.

Yes, I do agree and fully understand why they have the rules they do about the canned foods....as I too have seen some not-so-clean methods of preserving but there are some things I wish they would change but I guess when the government has complete control over some things we should kind of expect some odd or nonsensical rules.

[crazydaycarelady]

There was an organic daycare here in my town. They served organic food, used organic toys, etc. They charged quite a bit more, I'm thinking around $8/day more, but they weren't in business very long. Of course a lot of daycares don't last long so I don't know if it was lack of business or what. BTW....my town is VERY "hippie" and into organic, natural, etc.

They had a tour of their facility once and I was not very impressed. The "organic toys" were things like empty food boxes being used for blocks.

It really frustrates me that I cannot use the eggs that the children gather everyday from my own chickens because they were not processed. I was also told I could not serve the freezer jam that the kids and I made!!!

[Willow]

Originally Posted by Blackcat31

I was with Provider's Choice (17+ yrs) but switched to Child Care Choices about 2 years ago. LOVE my current rep!



Yes, I do agree and fully understand why they have the rules they do about the canned foods....as I too have seen some not-so-clean methods of preserving but there are some things I wish they would change but I guess when the government has complete control over some things we should kind of expect some odd or nonsensical rules.

Same here

I felt lucky to keep Keri Bitz when I moved - she's been so easy to work with!


I agree many of the regs are ridiculous and make no sense. Especially when you consider that the ones botching it for the rest of us are probably falling short all over the board and not just in the one area of canning lol