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  #1  
Old 07-23-2012, 01:02 PM
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Default Unvaccinated Child - wwyd?

I have my first ever prospective parents that have a child who is unvaccinated... and they do not plan to do this in the future either. I know the laws in my state, and I can watch her with a waiver. However, she is 10 months old, and in my care I also have a 2 months old infant. My main concern is the 10 month old bringing in something to the baby who is not old enough to have her shots.... also, I am concerned for my family home... and of course, the unvaccinated child becoming sick as well...

I know this is just a personal opinion thing, and that's what I'm asking for... FRIENDLY opinions.. what would you do? I really really like the family and the 10 month old a lot.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:05 PM
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Here are a few other threads about this subject.

http://daycare.com/forum/tags.php?tag=non-immunized

...off to get some popcorn
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  #3  
Old 07-23-2012, 01:08 PM
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I really don't want popcorn... LOL. I want to take the child I just am not sure what the right choice is. Please don't flame me.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:13 PM
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1. It's not *THAT* likely that the ten month old will bring in something...unvaxed does NOT equal dirty and disease-carrying

2. There are new, more virulent strains of things showing up that are affecting vaxed populations as much as unvaxed, so the vax is anon-issue.

3. Don't worry; you'll all be fine. The 2-month old is probably in more danger from all the kids coming in shedding viruses from their vaccines than from the ten month old shedding nothing.

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post

...off to get some popcorn
My thoughts exactly!

WDW- My personal opinion is that it's not the child's fault for the parents beliefs. I could be wrong (it's been known to happen ) but I remember something like the thing that suffers is the child that is not vaccinated.

So go ahead and take her
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by WDW View Post
I really don't want popcorn... LOL. I want to take the child I just am not sure what the right choice is. Please don't flame me.
Sorry.....I wasn't flaming you...I just know this tends to be a heated debate.

I have had children in care not vaccinated, partially vaccinated and vaccinated so I have no worries about what a parent does or doesn't do in that area.

My children are vaccinated but back when they were young, there wasn't the vast wealth of knowledge out there as there is now.

I think that there is no harm in taking the child. The vulnerable one would be the one not vaccinated.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:21 PM
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The vulnerable one would be the one not vaccinated.
So I was right!
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
Sorry.....I wasn't flaming you...I just know this tends to be a heated debate.

I have had children in care not vaccinated, partially vaccinated and vaccinated so I have no worries about what a parent does or doesn't do in that area.

My children are vaccinated but back when they were young, there wasn't the vast wealth of knowledge out there as there is now.

I think that there is no harm in taking the child. The vulnerable one would be the one not vaccinated.
Don't forget that when your children were young they received a fraction of the number of vaccines that children receive today. It's a whole 'nother ballgame these days.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:24 PM
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I have taken non-vaccinated children before. Utah has a place on it's shot record form to put it. The parents also have to have a waiver form from the health dept.
The parents understood that if an outbreak of something popped up in the area, their child would be excluded from care as long as the health dept warranted and they would still have to pay for their spot. They were fine with that.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
1. It's not *THAT* likely that the ten month old will bring in something...unvaxed does NOT equal dirty and disease-carrying I do NOT think that at all!!
2. There are new, more virulent strains of things showing up that are affecting vaxed populations as much as unvaxed, so the vax is anon-issue.

3. Don't worry; you'll all be fine. The 2-month old is probably in more danger from all the kids coming in shedding viruses from their vaccines than from the ten month old shedding nothing. Yes.. this was one of my concerns.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Former Teacher View Post
My thoughts exactly!

WDW- My personal opinion is that it's not the child's fault for the parents beliefs. I could be wrong (it's been known to happen ) but I remember something like the thing that suffers is the child that is not vaccinated. Totally agree that it's not the childs fault..

So go ahead and take her
[quote=Blackcat31;246915]Sorry.....I wasn't flaming you...I just know this tends to be a heated debate. Nah, I didn't think YOU were, just didn't want anyone to, I'm really not trying to be ugly or start debate. Just something I had never been faced with before.

I have had children in care not vaccinated, partially vaccinated and vaccinated so I have no worries about what a parent does or doesn't do in that area.

My children are vaccinated but back when they were young, there wasn't the vast wealth of knowledge out there as there is now.

I think that there is no harm in taking the child. The vulnerable one would be the one not vaccinated.[/QUOTE]

Thanks all!
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  #11  
Old 07-23-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
Don't forget that when your children were young they received a fraction of the number of vaccines that children receive today. It's a whole 'nother ballgame these days.
Yeah, I think they got
DTP...... in a series of 3 boosters
MMR......once at 15 months
Polio...... once, maybe twice by kindergarten entrance.

Diptheria, Tetanus, Pertussis, Measle Mumps and Rubella and Polio......and that was it. (sorry if they aren't spelled that way...it took me years to figure out what all the letters stood for....LOL!)

No Varicella, no Hib, or Hep or Roto-virus or anything like that. I am amazed at the number of vaccinations kids get now days.

Heck I remember getting the polio vaccination in elementary school in a sugar cube. I also got a small pox vaccination when I was born......I think they stopped giving that out shortly afterwards.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:38 PM
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I have had several kids who were unvaccinated over the years. Only once did it backfire on me. It wasn't a huge deal for me in the end. (the family got whooping cough) it was a bigger problem for the family than for me.

They did ask me to take the seven year old when she got too sick to go to school. Bahaha! "WHy, yes, I can't imagine why the school would exclude her for whooping cough". (actually I told them to keep everybody home and watch for symptoms in the little one....which she got)

They paid me for the time they were all off work, and none of the other kids got whooping cough.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:40 PM
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Heck I remember getting the polio vaccination in elementary school in a sugar cube. I also got a small pox vaccination when I was born......I think they stopped giving that out shortly afterwards.
I'm old enough to remember when we got ALL of our shots in school. We never did "well visits" each year, you just got shots in school.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WDW View Post
I have my first ever prospective parents that have a child who is unvaccinated... and they do not plan to do this in the future either. I know the laws in my state, and I can watch her with a waiver. However, she is 10 months old, and in my care I also have a 2 months old infant. My main concern is the 10 month old bringing in something to the baby who is not old enough to have her shots.... also, I am concerned for my family home... and of course, the unvaccinated child becoming sick as well...

I know this is just a personal opinion thing, and that's what I'm asking for... FRIENDLY opinions.. what would you do? I really really like the family and the 10 month old a lot.
I highlighted the bold parts that I think are essential. I don't allow non vac in my home but have never had anyone question me about it.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:20 PM
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I only take fully vaxed children. I have no problem, personally, with a family opting out of vaccines and know many families that do choose that. However, it is in my contract that all children have up to date vaccines. One of the reasons is that I am on my third pregnancy while doing daycare and this is in effort to keep myself and my newborns safe, plus I do take one baby under 12 months at time with my daycare kids. I realize that a vaccination is not a "cure all" and does not guarantee that your child is forever exempt from serious illness....however, this is what I feel comfortable doing in a daycare setting as a preventative measure. I understand that my take on the issue is not what everyone else does, but I wanted to put this out there in support of the OP and other providers. It is important for you to do what you feel comfortable with, and that may be something outside of what the majority is doing.

I have never had anyone question this policy and I find that unvaxed children in daycare is pretty uncommon. A lot of unvaxed kids are from AP style families who arent generally pro-daycare anyway.
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:08 PM
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I would definitely say that you need to inform all the other parents that there will be an unvaccinated child in your care. Also, I think this new child would have to be absent for an appropriate amount of time if she comes down with something.
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:22 AM
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This is a choice you have to make based on your comfort level, and not let your personal feelings of the family get in the way.

Both my kids are fully vaccinated and all my other dck's are vaccinated, so with herd immunity I would do it. However, me personally, with a 2-month-old, I would be more cautious. No, this child is not ridden with diseases and germs but it only takes one time, right?

I think of it like this: if you are not vaccinating your child, that is your choice that you want to take a chance at exposure to those illnesses. If you have a 2-month-old that you plan to fully vaccinate, you are choosing not to expose your child, but you just can't do it yet. I (personally) would not put my newborn in that position.

Along those same lines, if I had 1 child in my daycare that was not vaxxed, I likely would not take another, to increase the safety of the 1 non-vaxxed child in my care.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:40 AM
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I am not allowed to take an unvaxed child unless it is for religious or medical reasons (and then I need a special form signed by a religious official or MD only). Just 'opting out' is not an 'option' here.
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Old 07-24-2012, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by youretooloud View Post
I have had several kids who were unvaccinated over the years. Only once did it backfire on me. It wasn't a huge deal for me in the end. (the family got whooping cough) it was a bigger problem for the family than for me.

They did ask me to take the seven year old when she got too sick to go to school. Bahaha! "WHy, yes, I can't imagine why the school would exclude her for whooping cough". (actually I told them to keep everybody home and watch for symptoms in the little one....which she got)

They paid me for the time they were all off work, and none of the other kids got whooping cough.
This is the only one I'd be really concerned with as it's making a come back and it's pretty wretched with the littlest ones. We adults are also susceptible to it as they are now recommending re-vaccinating at this point.

We did get a notice from School this past year that a child had it and to watch for symptoms.
Here is a short video about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GKiBYuzpL0

I would just follow the letter of the law as far as waivers and paperwork if you take the child.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:36 AM
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I would definitely say that you need to inform all the other parents that there will be an unvaccinated child in your care. Also, I think this new child would have to be absent for an appropriate amount of time if she comes down with something.
I agree with notifying the other parents. Personally, if I were the parent of the 2-month-old, it would make me think about moving my child to a different daycare if the unvaccinated child were accepted. Sure, it may not have any affect on the older children who have received their vaccinations, but as you said, the 2-month-old is not fully vaccinated yet. In addition to pertussis, there have been measles outbreaks in some states over the past couple of years.
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Old 07-24-2012, 06:58 AM
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There are vaccine resistant strains of these diseases developing. Here are a few articles about the US whooping cough epidemic and an epidemic in Australia where they have started pulling the whooping cough vaccine because it doesn't work anymore.

Some info about the current whooping cough outbreak and vaccinations.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8320TM20120403

Witt had expected to see the illnesses center around unvaccinated kids, knowing they are more vulnerable to the disease.

"We started dissecting the data. What was very surprising was the majority of cases were in fully vaccinated children. That's what started catching our attention," said Witt.

To figure out just how well the vaccine was working, Witt and his colleagues collected information on every patient who had tested positive for pertussis between March and October, 2010.

Of the 132 patients under age 18, 81 percent were up to date on recommended whooping cough shots and eight percent had never been vaccinated. The other 11 percent had received at least one shot, but not the complete series.


http://online.wsj.com/article/APae1a...0e3abe635.html

Some parents in California and other states have rebelled against vaccinations and gotten their children exempted from rules that require them to get their shots to enroll in school. Washington state has one of the highest exemption rates in the nation. But the CDC said that does not appear to be a major factor in the outbreak, since most of the youngsters who got sick had been vaccinated.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news...-1226350174856

http://www.smh.com.au/national/healt...320-1vibp.html
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:15 AM
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I agree with notifying the other parents. Personally, if I were the parent of the 2-month-old, it would make me think about moving my child to a different daycare if the unvaccinated child were accepted. Sure, it may not have any affect on the older children who have received their vaccinations, but as you said, the 2-month-old is not fully vaccinated yet. In addition to pertussis, there have been measles outbreaks in some states over the past couple of years.
The 2 month old can pick up a virus that is shed from a child who recently received their vaccinations just as easily as getting something from a non-vaccinated child. If I remember correctly, the ones getting the vaccinations are more likely to "spread" the illness/disease.

A 2 month old is vulerable regardless.

I also think that there are laws in each state about whether or not parents need to be informed or a non-vaccinated child in attendance.

Check your specific area's laws before announcing to other parents and causing unnecessary panic.

After all, how many of your children's schools send you notices that unvaccinated children are in attendance?
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:34 AM
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After all, how many of your children's schools send you notices that unvaccinated children are in attendance?
You're right, they *rarely* send notices. Because in my province, your child can not attend public school if they are not vaccinated. Oh, sure, that there are religious exemptions, but here it happens so rarely that a child would attend that isn't vaccinated due to religious exemption that the school would send out a notice. It's never come up. But I promise you, the school would do it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 07:45 AM
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You're right, they *rarely* send notices. Because in my province, your child can not attend public school if they are not vaccinated. Oh, sure, that there are religious exemptions, but here it happens so rarely that a child would attend that isn't vaccinated due to religious exemption that the school would send out a notice. It's never come up. But I promise you, the school would do it.
Maybe in your school but NOT here.

Here we have a choice that says "conscientiously opposed" as an option along with medical and/or religious reasons for not vaccinating your child.

Not vaccinating your kids has become an epidemic itself here and is actually pretty common in my area.

NONE of that info is sent home in mass mailings or school announcements here.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:28 AM
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Maybe in your school but NOT here.

Here we have a choice that says "conscientiously opposed" as an option along with medical and/or religious reasons for not vaccinating your child.

Not vaccinating your kids has become an epidemic itself here and is actually pretty common in my area.

NONE of that info is sent home in mass mailings or school announcements here.
True except that our district lets you know HOW MANY are not vacc and enrolled. Just another reason to get vacc in my opinion. Protect yourself.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:33 AM
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True except that our district lets you know HOW MANY are not vacc and enrolled. Just another reason to get vacc in my opinion. Protect yourself.
Weird how districts in the same state vary as I have never recieved that info. I am sure it is out there somewhere but I have never seen it in all my years of being a parent if a school age child.

I agree about getting your kids immunized though.....I am definitely pro-vax.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:11 AM
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My nephew is not vaccinated. His parents were pro-vax like the majority of people, but then they began doing some research and what they found surprised them and they have made the decision not to vaccinate right now. They may when he is older, but right now babies his age are so vulnerable to what is PUT in the Vaccines now days that they decided it is best not to. The OP doesn't need to be concerned. The majority of outbreaks have been found to come from children who just received their vaccines rather than those who were not vaccinated. It's terrible what all is put into vaccines now. Including mercury... Some vaccines have caused babies to have seizures, some have actually killed the baby... and I have friends whose babies have disorders and the doctor for one of those children even admitted that it was most likely from the vaccines (he told which one, but I can't remember which). But all this is off topic from what the OP asked. Sorry... I think your concern is for the 2 month old, but I wouldn't worry about it too much (after what I've learned about vaccines). I believe their biggest risk of getting something comes from a child who is recently vaccinated, rather than from one who is not. You were also concerned for the unvaccinated child becoming sick with something. As long as your policies say parents have to pay even if the child is home sick, you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. besides that, I believe the child is most likely to get sick if he is vaccinated, according to the research my brother-in-law and sister have done. So I think all your bases are covered and it should be fine to take this new little one on. I wouldn't even think you would need to let the vaccinated children's parents know that one is not. If they are vaccinated, even if this non-vaxed one did get something, their children are "protected" against it.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:45 AM
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Weird how districts in the same state vary as I have never recieved that info. I am sure it is out there somewhere but I have never seen it in all my years of being a parent if a school age child.

I've never seen anything like that either....not sure why it's relevant information anyway. What is to be gained by collecting and posting such data, other than to fuel the anti-vax hype that is running rampant in parts of the state? Monkey see monkey do? If others are doing is so should I?

The town I live in now is the most anti-med I've ever seen to boot. So many parents swear by essential oils and many refuse to bring their kids into the doctor unless/until they're on their death beds. I'm not exaggerating



I accepted a sibling pair who are completely non-vaxed. On MN Health Deptartments Immunization Record form they simply chose option D - "I understand that not following vaccination recommendations may endanger the health or life of my child and others that my child might come in contact with. I hereby certify by notarization that (check one):
I am opposed to all immunizations
I am opposed to only the vaccines indicated. Vaccines I oppose:
_____________________________________

Signed/dated
Notary public signed/dated and stamped."

That's all any kiddo needs to be in compliance in a licensed daycare or public school in MN. That is state wide as far as I know, since it's run by MDH. If it wasn't an option everywhere then why would it be offered?



I will say the pair are hands down some of THE SICKEST kids I've EVER had or even met. They were born healthy and by all accounts should in theory (according to mom) be the healthiest kids in town. Reality though is the one has had a green snotty nose non-stop since he started in February and the other one coughs and hacks her way through every naptime. They've missed multiple days for having ridiculous fevers, flus and various other things that drag them down so hard and fast they don't even want to get out of bed.

I cannot help but assume there is a connection.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:53 AM
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There have been rampid cases of whooping cough in our state and Washington. They constently have it on the news and it scares me because of how sick these kids have been this year and me also.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:57 AM
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It's terrible what all is put into vaccines now. Including mercury...
This is super outdated information, and it feels unnecessary paranoia.

Thimerosal *was* a preservative used in vaccine serums and yes, it did contain mercury - however - it was used since the 1930's and was certainly nothing new.

That said due to the hype of the autism paranoia it's no longer produced or used in any of the traditional childhood vaccinations.

Repeat - thimerosal is no longer used as a preservative in childhood vaccines.




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Originally Posted by Preschool/daycare teacher View Post
Some vaccines have caused babies to have seizures, some have actually killed the baby... and I have friends whose babies have disorders and the doctor for one of those children even admitted that it was most likely from the vaccines (he told which one, but I can't remember which).
There is risk in introducing especially live attenuated vaccines, it's plainly stated and parents have to sign off acknowledging those risks. That said, what do you think contracting the actual virus/disease itself will do if a child?

Mortality rates are infinitely higher in comparison to mere reactions from vaccine exposure.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Willow View Post
This is super outdated information, and it feels unnecessary paranoia.

Thimerosal *was* a preservative used in vaccine serums and yes, it did contain mercury - however - it was used since the 1930's and was certainly nothing new.

That said due to the hype of the autism paranoia it's no longer produced or used in any of the traditional childhood vaccinations.

Repeat - thimerosal is no longer used as a preservative in childhood vaccines.






There is risk in introducing especially live attenuated vaccines, it's plainly stated and parents have to sign off acknowledging those risks. That said, what do you think contracting the actual virus/disease itself will do if a child?

Mortality rates are infinitely higher in comparison to mere reactions from vaccine exposure.
I need a source for your statement that thimerosal is no longer used. AFAIK It is still used in MMR.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:10 AM
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Awesome post, Willow!
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:12 AM
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I will say the pair are hands down some of THE SICKEST kids I've EVER had or even met. They were born healthy and by all accounts should in theory (according to mom) be the healthiest kids in town. Reality though is the one has had a green snotty nose non-stop since he started in February and the other one coughs and hacks her way through every naptime. They've missed multiple days for having ridiculous fevers, flus and various other things that drag them down so hard and fast they don't even want to get out of bed.

I cannot help but assume there is a connection.
If you didn't know their vaccine status, would you have made that "connection?"

Really...are you saying that they are constantly ill with a vaccine-preventable disease? No? Then how on EARTH could be a connection and what is it?????
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:28 AM
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Mortality rates are infinitely higher in comparison to mere reactions from vaccine exposure.
Japan raised its minimum vaccination age to two years in 1975 the overall infant mortality rate improved to become the best in the world.

I found this info out some years back and thought it was very interesting.

They also have a very low SIDS rate compared to the US and other countries. I have zero clue as to the legitamacy of this info but thought I would throw it out there.....
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:32 AM
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I need a source for your statement that thimerosal is no longer used. AFAIK It is still used in MMR.
Merck & Co produces two MMR vaccines (M-M-R-II and ProQuad that includes varicela) that are thimerosal free. That can be confirmed on the Tables of recommended vaccines here:

http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVac...fety/UCM096228

Thimerosal has been removed from or reduced to trace amounts in all vaccines routinely recommended for children 6 years of age and younger, with the exception of inactivated influenza vaccine (see Table 1). A preservative-free version of the inactivated influenza vaccine (contains trace amounts of thimerosal) is available in limited supply at this time for use in infants, children and pregnant women. Some vaccines such as Td, which is indicated for older children (≥ 7 years of age) and adults, are also now available in formulations that are free of thimerosal or contain only trace amounts. Vaccines with trace amounts of thimerosal contain 1 microgram or less of mercury per dose.



Yet another source, I have loads if you want more.


http://www.cdc.gov/h1n1flu/vaccinati...merosal_qa.htm

Since 2001, no new vaccine licensed by FDA for use in children has contained thimerosal as a preservative, and all vaccines routinely recommended by CDC for children under six years of age have been thimerosal-free, or contain only trace amounts, except for multi-dose formulations of influenza vaccine. This was done as a precautionary step and not because there was evidence confirming that thimerosal-containing vaccines were causing health problems. The most recent and rigorous scientific research does not support the hypothesis that thimerosal-containing vaccines are harmful.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:41 AM
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If you didn't know their vaccine status, would you have made that "connection?"

Really...are you saying that they are constantly ill with a vaccine-preventable disease? No? Then how on EARTH could be a connection and what is it?????
Being a licensed provider I have to know their vaccine status, not knowing wasn't an option.

If they were kids I just happened to know in life I'd conclude the same, that they are much sicker than most kids I've ever known.


When kids are vaccinated live attenuated viruses especially it challenges the immune system. Across the board I believe those minor challenges boost the immune systems ability to rebound to anything.

It's no different than a parent keeping their child in a bubble and then throwing them into kindergarten and wondering why they're ill as heck all through their elementary school years.

Exposure to ANYTHING infectious builds antibodies.

Less exposure, less work the immune system has had to do, less antibodies, less protection.

More exposure, more work the immune system has had to do, more antibodies, more protection.


It's not at all a far fetched belief, and one that's pretty well rooted in what science and biology specifically has already proven.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:50 AM
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You're right, they *rarely* send notices. Because in my province, your child can not attend public school if they are not vaccinated. Oh, sure, that there are religious exemptions, but here it happens so rarely that a child would attend that isn't vaccinated due to religious exemption that the school would send out a notice. It's never come up. But I promise you, the school would do it.
Actually if you're in Nova Scotia like your location says you are completely wrong. There is no requirement for any vaccination to start school in NS. They recommend a full series but you do not need a medical, religious or any other type of exemption because there are no written rules. I have two children in the public school system in NS and neither are vaccinated. I just refused 13 shots or something like that for my 12 year old that were done in school. I simply had to decline on the permission form. When both of my children started school I wrote, "we do not vaccinate" in the section where you list your vaccinations.
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Old 07-24-2012, 10:58 AM
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Being a licensed provider I have to know their vaccine status, not knowing wasn't an option.

If they were kids I just happened to know in life I'd conclude the same, that they are much sicker than most kids I've ever known.


When kids are vaccinated live attenuated viruses especially it challenges the immune system. Across the board I believe those minor challenges boost the immune systems ability to rebound to anything.

It's no different than a parent keeping their child in a bubble and then throwing them into kindergarten and wondering why they're ill as heck all through their elementary school years.

Exposure to ANYTHING infectious builds antibodies.

Less exposure, less work the immune system has had to do, less antibodies, less protection.

More exposure, more work the immune system has had to do, more antibodies, more protection.


It's not at all a far fetched belief, and one that's pretty well rooted in what science and biology specifically has already proven.
...........

I.....

....am going to take this to PM...
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
...........

I.....

....am going to take this to PM...
Just so you know, I won't respond if it's negative in nature.



If you don't use your brain it atrophies.

If you don't use your muscles they become weak.

If you don't use your immune system it's non-existent.


An immune system is only as strong as it's made.


You can disagree with me if you'd like, and I respect your choice to do so, but that's biology 101 as far as I'm concerned and it is my belief.

OP asked for opinions regarding this, I gave mine based on the research I've done for my own children and my own personal experiences. That's all.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:14 AM
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Just so you know, I won't respond if it's negative in nature.



If you don't use your brain it atrophies.

If you don't use your muscles they become weak.

If you don't use your immune system it's non-existent.


An immune system is only as strong as it's made.


You can disagree with me if you'd like, and I respect your choice to do so, but that's biology 101 as far as I'm concerned and it is my belief.

OP asked for opinions regarding this, I gave mine based on the research I've done for my own children and my own personal experiences. That's all.
I'd like to see some of the research if you have links available.

I have never heard of unvaccinated children having less developed immune systems. In fact I've heard the opposite. Most vaccines temporarily suppress the immune system.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:34 AM
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Dang, I ran out of popcorn.
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:40 AM
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Just so you know, I won't respond if it's negative in nature.



If you don't use your brain it atrophies.

If you don't use your muscles they become weak.

If you don't use your immune system it's non-existent.


An immune system is only as strong as it's made.


You can disagree with me if you'd like, and I respect your choice to do so, but that's biology 101 as far as I'm concerned and it is my belief.

OP asked for opinions regarding this, I gave mine based on the research I've done for my own children and my own personal experiences. That's all.
*sigh* I'm not being negative, I promise...just not wanting to derail the thread further.

Just saying that here so no one thinks I'm being unpleasant or something :P
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Old 07-24-2012, 11:47 AM
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I'd like to see some of the research if you have links available.

I have never heard of unvaccinated children having less developed immune systems. In fact I've heard the opposite. Most vaccines temporarily suppress the immune system.
The key word there is "temporarily"

What do you think then happens afterward?

Do you believe the vaccines have NO positive effect on the body? That they don't protect against disease/illness at all?

Do you believe a newborn is born with a perfectly formed and finely tuned immune system or do you believe it has to mature?

If you believe it has to mature what do you think matures it?

If you believe antibodies mature it (as vaccines contain) then why would unvaccinated children have more of a developed immune system when they have less exposure to that which build's it?

Genuine questions, I hope they read that way

I'll rustle you up some links, hang on....
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:27 PM
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I'd like to see some of the research if you have links available.

I have never heard of unvaccinated children having less developed immune systems. In fact I've heard the opposite. Most vaccines temporarily suppress the immune system.
According to Dr Dave Mihalovic, a naturopathic doctor who specializes in vaccine research:

"The emerging generation of unvaccinated children will be among the healthiest in the world"

http://deretornoacasa.wordpress.com/...-unvaccinated/


From everything I have read (not just this thread but other info too) vaccinating our children is a personal choice and depending on which side of the fence you are on, the research you believe and choose to take as real is also a choice.

Obviously if you are pro-vax, then it isn't too hard to find evidence/reasearch that supports your choice, just as there is plenty of evidence/research to the polar opposite.

I think whether a child is vaccinated or not should be up to the parent and the parent should also assume the responsibilty of educating themselves in any manner they should feel appropriate and not simply let others lead them or be part of the mainstream group just because it is the "in" thing to do.

Find the right thing for YOU and YOUR children and do what YOU feel is necessary.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:12 PM
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Great article!

I agree, Blackcat. As a former vaccinating parent that now chooses to not vaccinate at all it IS easy to find research to support either argument. You have to be very careful what you're reading and where you're reading it. You're much better off looking for real studies and scientific sources.

That's why I'm interested in Willow's links. I can never have too much info. Who knows? I might change my mind again.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:21 PM
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Actually if you're in Nova Scotia like your location says you are completely wrong. There is no requirement for any vaccination to start school in NS. They recommend a full series but you do not need a medical, religious or any other type of exemption because there are no written rules. I have two children in the public school system in NS and neither are vaccinated. I just refused 13 shots or something like that for my 12 year old that were done in school. I simply had to decline on the permission form. When both of my children started school I wrote, "we do not vaccinate" in the section where you list your vaccinations.
Then I am going to assume the sensible thing and say that it sounds like it is different for different school boards and districts.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:24 PM
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Then I am going to assume the sensible thing and say that it sounds like it is different for different school boards and districts.
My info is from Nova Scotia Public Health but perhaps they were referring to HRM only when I spoke with them and didn't say so.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:32 PM
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This link was just posted to my facebook page and some of you might be interested in reading it. Brand new information about Whooping Cough vaccine.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...c-in-70-years/
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:43 PM
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This link was just posted to my facebook page and some of you might be interested in reading it. Brand new information about Whooping Cough vaccine.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevensa...c-in-70-years/
Not agreeing or disagreeing with the info in the article you posted ......just making my point that for EVERY article in support of vaccinations there is one easily found with evidence to support the polar opposite:

Former post-doctoral researcher of the Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics, Grainne Long found that vaccination led to a 40-fold enhancement of B. parapertussis colonization in the lungs. His data suggested that the vaccine may be contributing to the observed rise in whooping cough incidence over the last decade by promoting B. parapertussis infection.

An acellular whooping cough vaccine actually enhances the colonization of Bordetella parapertussis ; pointing towards a rise in B. parapertussis incidence resulting from acellular vaccination, which may have contributed to the observed increase in whooping cough over the last decade.
http://sanevax.org/vaccines-causing-superbugs/
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:48 PM
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changed my mind.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:51 PM
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changed my mind.
Are you for vacinations now or not?
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:00 PM
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The way I see it is this. SOME vaccines are all right--they've been around for awhile, they're proven, and they have definite benefits. MMR, I can see (although NOT before age 3, personally, unless they re-release the individual ones). DTAP, I can see (though personally must be careful with my own children due to a reaction I had to TDAP).

Some have a particular reputation for being nasty--Gardasil for example. Too new, too unproven, and kind of too useless. Another is the Hep B vax at birth...because newborns share SO many dirty needles . One...pneumoccal? (I know I slaughtered that spelling) or Prevnar? has a nasty rep. The Rotovirus vax has a nasty rep too and an old ped of ours who was VERY pro-vax actually refused to administer the rotovirus one to her patients <---that speaks LOADS to me.

I will not vax before age 1--little immune systems need time to strength before having to deal with the direct injection of chemicals. I will not give MMR before 3. And we don't do flu shots, ever.

But I also will not buy into fear and hype on either end of the scale. My kids are healthy; they rarely get sick even with the things that my (fully vaxed ) dcks bring in and when they do get sick it's usually over pretty quick. I will NOT buy into fear. Both sides of the vaccine debate engage in fear-mongering hype tactics and I hate them both.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:26 PM
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Great article!

I agree, Blackcat. As a former vaccinating parent that now chooses to not vaccinate at all it IS easy to find research to support either argument. You have to be very careful what you're reading and where you're reading it. You're much better off looking for real studies and scientific sources.

That's why I'm interested in Willow's links. I can never have too much info. Who knows? I might change my mind again.
Not looking to change anyone's mind, just putting out there how I've come to the conclusions I have

I do agree that anyone can find information in support of their argument, and even if it's credible information it could be considered completely obsolete or inconsequential to someone else.

Here's the very basics to me:

How the immune system is formed:
http://medicalcenter.osu.edu/patient...ges/index.aspx


How vaccines work in laymen's terms:

http://www.biologyreference.com/Ta-Va/Vaccines.html


This one's tough to get through but if you speak microbiology at all:
http://cvi.asm.org/content/17/7/1055.full

The conclusion there is:

"This review has shown that after the administration of nearly all vaccines, with the exceptions of BCG and zoster, prevention of infection correlates with the induction of specific antibodies. However, the situation is far from simple: antibodies must be present at the site of replication on the mucosae or in specific organs and must have sufficient breadth to affect heterologous serotypes, if they exist. Moreover, CD4+ responses, key to B-cell help and cytokine production, are sometimes better correlates of protection than antibody titers. Although I have sought to identify single correlates, for many of the vaccines considered above, multiple immune responses interact to protect. B-cell memory is crucial to prolonged protection after vaccination and is dependent on the magnitude of the innate immune response that enhances adaptive cellular responses (21). Nevertheless, the generalization holds that antibodies prevent infection whereas cellular responses control infection once replication has been established."

If you're only interested in the conclusion the bolded in particular to me translates to.....

Unvaccinated kiddo - goes to the grocery store and is exposed to a bitty cold virus. Kid gets sick. Kid's immune system fights off virus eventually.....on the flip side of that kid goes to the grocery store and picks up rotovirus. Kid gets sick. Kid's immune system fights off virus eventually. Repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat....etc. The body has no road map to fight off either and the B-cells have never been challenged in a way that enhances their ability to more effectively fight off even minor illnesses.

Vaccinated kiddo - goes to the grocery store and is exposed to a bitty cold virus. Kid doesn't get sick at all because his immune system is like a fortress. It's been introduced to and challenged by some pretty severe illnesses. His cellular response to infection is enhanced because his B-cell memory has been enhanced by the introduction of those much more ominous illnesses. The more ominous the illness, the more enhanced the B-cells tend to be....on the flip side of that kid goes to the grocery store and picks up rotovirus. Kid again doesn't get sick at all because his T-cell memory already has the roadmap to fight it off incredibly efficiently. He'll never contract it again no matter how much he's exposed to it.


For information on what memory cells are, how they impact our health and vaccination's affect on them. This offers a great explanation:

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-memory-cell.htm




I went nuts over this stuff before my kids were born and subsequently in review of if I should buck having my dogs vaccinated per licensing requirements or just titered because one had some pretty severe vaccine reactions as a pup.

I love talking about it because to me it's fascinating stuff.

I do think it's relevant to the thread as the OP was having a tough time deciding how she felt about the issue and what to do. The more information she has the better she'll feel about whatever decision she makes.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
Some have a particular reputation for being nasty--Gardasil for example. Too new, too unproven, and kind of too useless.
Agree



Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
And we don't do flu shots, ever.
Agree


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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
I will NOT buy into fear. Both sides of the vaccine debate engage in fear-mongering hype tactics and I hate them both.
Completely agree
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:14 AM
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Are you for vacinations now or not?
Most definitely against. I just changed my mind about what I was going to post. But like I said I'm always interested in new or different information. You can never stop learning about this stuff as it's constantly changing.

I vaccinated for years without even thinking about it until my family had a very bad experience with one of the diseases we were suppose to be protected from. We were given different info by public health and the hospitals and the media reported a 3rd version of events about the outbreak. At that point I decided that I would never make a decision like vaccination again without knowing everything that I can from sources that are independent as I can find.

Thanks for the links, Willow. I'll go through them tomorrow. I took biology so I'm really looking forward to the last one.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:01 AM
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I did the very basic with my kids. Now there are so many extras that you can get, but I really don't think they need it. I don't do flu shots or chicken pox shots either. Whatever happened to building immunity, its so crazy now.

I will say that, those who have recieved the flu shot (the kids) are always sick, then those who haven't. I started noticing a couple of years ago.
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