I had a union job and it was the best paying ECE job in my City by a very wide margin. People just starting were hired at $45,000 and that was 10 yrs ago. Plus benefits, sick time etc etc.

Every person I know who is in a union makes more than they would in the private sector.

Too bad this interesting discussion has derailed into a pissing contest as usual :rolleyes:

If you're not happy with your wages

Just my comments:
1) While it's not at the top of my list of concerns for parents, I still worried about whether I was affordable.
2) I honestly wouldn't have wanted to be filled with dcfs that could only afford top prices because some of them feel very entitled and expect special for the high prices.
3) Wait lists aren't all they're cracked up to be. By the time their name came up, other dc had been found. This is from when I was lucky enough to accumulate several names so take that thought for what it's worth.
4) JMO, but experience with children, dedication, love and compassion play just as much of a role as your so-called book learning, certificates and education. :rolleyes:

I don’t feel the need to do anything to shorten a waiting list. It’s just not a concern for me. I’ll just keep doing my job, and enrolling families that fit well here.

The only thing unions help are themselves

The only benefit for the individual is a higher wage.

But at who's cost?

Unions are/were the downfall of the economy in my area
They are/were the downfall of automakers.

Unions help unions get rich but at who's expense?

Unions have also wrecked the steel and textile industries and have helped drive manufacturing jobs overseas.

They've ruined public education and cost tax payers billions of dollars and are bankrupting cities and states. (Wisconsin is a perfect example).

If unions were so wonderful, why aren't child care providers flocking to join them? Why aren't child care providers shouting from roof tops how beneficial and helpful unions are to this profession?

Unions have turned the American dream into a nightmare.

Originally Posted by Josiegirl:
Does this sound derogatory to anyone else? :rolleyes:

Most certainly!

Unregistered:
A good licensed, educated teacher would never portray the self righteous, judgmental attitude you are displaying here.
Good teachers have compassion for others, see worth in all people, teach children and young adults how to treat others and the world they inherit with kindness. I take pity on the ones who will be subject to your wrath.

Originally Posted by Ariana:
My guess and I do not mean for this to sound offensive is that most providers are only in it for the short term and have low education/know very little about business.

I have to say, that comment really rubbed me the wrong way. That statement couldn't be further from the truth. Maybe where you live, that's what you're seeing. In my area, we take pride in our field. Many of us have had years of early childhood education and training. I don't know too many fields that require the ongoing training we do here.

In regards to short term: The providers I know have 10 years or more under their belt. Myself included.

I charge more for infants AND require full time Carr
I do this because it’s needed in my community AND spots are rare.
Same way other places do it. Higher demand, less ‘product’ and less spots.

Originally Posted by Josiegirl:
3) Wait lists aren't all they're cracked up to be. By the time their name came up, other dc had been found. This is from when I was lucky enough to accumulate several names so take that thought for what it's worth.

Yep! Exactly. I have never bothered having a wait list. The parents find other care. They aren’t all just waiting around with no daycare.

Originally Posted by Mom2Two:
They aren’t all just waiting around with no daycare.

Here in Seattle a lot of parents do end up waiting for a long time. Getting a full-time nanny is an alternative solution, but good nannies are very hard to find.

Some parents might also find a daycare that's far from where they live, instead of being able to send their kid to the closest location. Some are only able to find a part-time option while they want a full-time option. None of this would be an issue if waiting lists didn't exist.

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
I fully agree that it won't let you increase your capacity, but in theory it should increase your profit margin. Let's say you are currently charging $100 per week and have a 3 year waitlist. If you increase it to $110 (for new clients) the waitlist might drop to 2 years. If you further increase it to $120 it might go down to 1 year. Therefore your revenue would increase by 20% without having to take up any extra work.

It would price out some parents out of the daycare market, but at the same time it would help parents who have recently moved into the neighborhood and haven't had a chance to sign up for the waitlist three years ago. That's an issue faced by many of my parent colleagues who are new to Seattle.

Why do you assume that the waitlist would drop due to a rate increase? The need for childcare will still be there regardless of a rate increase.

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
Here in Seattle a lot of parents do end up waiting for a long time. Getting a full-time nanny is an alternative solution, but good nannies are very hard to find.

Some parents might also find a daycare that's far from where they live, instead of being able to send their kid to the closest location. Some are only able to find a part-time option while they want a full-time option. None of this would be an issue if waiting lists didn't exist.

Can you elaborate on that thought process?

I don't understand how you are coming up with these conclusions.... although it could be a simple misunderstanding in regards to parent perspective and provider perspective.

But if you could explain how eliminating wait lists would fix the issues you mentioned I would appreciate it. :)

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
None of this would be an issue if waiting lists didn't exist.

That’s ludicrous. Waitlists will cease to exist when there are enough options for families to find adequate care. Price gouging does nothing to eradicate that.

I would bet good money that the lack of daycare in your area is due to licensing restrictions and mandated policies they inflict on their local providers. Many states make it near impossible to make a good profit with their ratio restrictions. On top of that, state representatives who have never stepped foot in a daycare impose statute after statute of mandated procedures that make this job dreadfully complicated. As a result, that drives providers out of business by the dozens.

If you truly want to make a change in the daycare supply, write to your representatives. Let them know that the public (you) wants changes. That they should make this professional a priority and appealing to future providers by giving them resources they need and freedom in their business, instead of pushing them out in the name of “universal pre-k”.

Originally Posted by LostMyMarbles:
Why do you assume that the waitlist would drop due to a rate increase? The need for childcare will still be there regardless of a rate increase.

The need would still be there, but you won't have to wait for it. Just like you can always buy a plane ticket for Christmas, even if it costs a lot more than on other days. Likewise it is easy to buy a house in Seattle, although you need a lot of money to afford one.

Originally Posted by :
Can you elaborate on that thought process?

Having a long waiting list means parents who both want to work full-time are unable to do so, even if they have the funds to pay for childcare. I personally know people who are struggling with this issue. Increasing the price would increase the profitability of daycares and make access to their services easier to plan for.

Originally Posted by :
Waitlists will cease to exist when there are enough options for families to find adequate care. Price gouging does nothing to eradicate that.

It is easy to demonstrate why this is true with an exaggerated example. Let's say you increase your daycare price to $100,000 per week. At those rates only someone like Bill Gates would be able to afford it and the waitlist would be gone. Obviously you can't charge $100k per week, but there is always a price point at which the waiting list would become minimal without hurting your profitability. In economic theory this is referred to as the "supply and demand" curve.

Originally Posted by :
If you truly want to make a change in the daycare supply, write to your representatives.

I completely agree that overregulation is the root cause of the daycare deficit! However that doesn't explain the business practices of daycares in the existing legal environment :)

Your theory however does not work in all economic areas...:

As I have already said I charge a lot more than other area daycares do. (Almost double) Many of them have openings they can’t fill.

I have a lengthy waitlist...a waitlist that has grown as my rates have grown. So how does your theory work when applied to me?

The business of child care is not the same as The business of selling a product ....

It’s also important to remember that most childcare providers are looking to make an income but they are not in this business so that they can rob hard-working parents

Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Your theory however does not work in all economic areas...:

As I have already said I charge a lot more than other area daycares do. (Almost double) Many of them have openings they can’t fill.

I have a lengthy waitlist...a waitlist that has grown as my rates have grown. So how does your theory work when applied to me?

This just means that you have a superior product and people are willing to pay your company more than to competition. You could most likely increase the prices even more while still working at full capacity. Similarly Paul McCartney's concerts regularly sell out while small time bands struggle with attendance rates. Paul's product is superior and he can make more money from it than others in the business.

Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
It’s also important to remember that most childcare providers are looking to make an income but they are not in this business so that they can rob hard-working parents

If the explanation is that you are consciously lowering your profit margins to help out struggling parents, then it makes perfect sense! :) Although I'm not sure this explains why corporations like Bright Horizons also has waitlists.

In the $100,000/week example, sure, it eliminates the waiting list. But who did it help, besides the Bill Gates person and the daycare provider?

As others have pointed out, our maximum allowed ratios do not change, no matter how high we raise our rates. This whole concept of raising rates to eliminate waiting lists is just ludicrous. The parents sitting at home waiting for daycare would still be doing that even if I doubled or tripled my rates.

Originally Posted by Rockgirl:
In the $100,000/week example, sure, it eliminates the waiting list. But who did it help, besides the Bill Gates person and the daycare provider?

By increasing the prices you're helping:

1. Yourself as the business owner, as your profit margins go up. This might additionally incentivize you to expand the daycare in the future.
2. Daycare employees (if there are any) might see an increase in salary
3. Parents will have more flexibility as they know wait times for daycare are short

Originally Posted by Rockgirl:
As others have pointed out, our maximum allowed ratios do not change, no matter how high we raise our rates.

The ratios don't change, but your income per customer will increase.

Originally Posted by Rockgirl:
This whole concept of raising rates to eliminate waiting lists is just ludicrous. The parents sitting at home waiting for daycare would still be doing that even if I doubled or tripled my rates.

If you double your rates a certain percentage of parents will no longer be able to afford your daycare and would drop off the waitlist. If you triple the rates even more parents will drop off. Nobody has infinite money :) Obviously this wouldn't address the problem of daycare shortage as the number of available spots won't increase, but it would address the issue of waiting lists causing issues for parents.

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
By increasing the prices you're helping:

1. Yourself as the business owner, as your profit margins go up. This might additionally incentivize you to expand the daycare in the future.
2. Daycare employees (if there are any) might see an increase in salary
3. Parents will have more flexibility as they know wait times for daycare are short



The ratios don't change, but your income per customer will increase.



If you double your rates a certain percentage of parents will no longer be able to afford your daycare and would drop off the waitlist. If you triple the rates even more parents will drop off. Nobody has infinite money :) Obviously this wouldn't address the problem of daycare shortage as the number of available spots won't increase, but it would address the issue of waiting lists causing issues for parents.

Can you tell us your story? What happened to you, that makes you upset with the wait list? Are you currently waiting for for an opening?

Originally Posted by 284878:
Can you tell us your story? What happened to you, that makes you upset with the wait list? Are you currently waiting for for an opening?

I'm not waiting for an opening right now, but I would have to be if I decide to have a child in Seattle. I'm also surrounded by people who've recently moved to the city and are struggling to find daycare.

This isn't an issue when it comes to other expenses: for example its fairly easy to find a property to buy/sell, although it's very expensive compared to the rest of WA state. And there aren't queues in IKEA for baby cribs or other child expenses :)

I don't see the answer to the Seattle kind of dilemma as pricing the normal income family out of the dc possibility completely or leaving them with the lowest possible standard dc that can be afforded. I see the dilemma as being solved by increasing the # of available quality child care options. When states stop making the hoops so difficult to jump through and start giving providers more support, more respect, in regards to being in the profession then maybe the dilemma will improve. When they can gather funding to help pay the costs of dc(which is already exorbitant in some places) more than they do currently, then things will improve.

States have taken away financial support while increasing their regulations and requirements in recent years, making it more and more difficult for a provider to be able to stay in business or *want* to stay in business. Nothing burns a provider out more than constantly giving giving giving of their time and money to stay in regulation. :(

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
I'm not waiting for an opening right now, but I would have to be if I decide to have a child in Seattle. I'm also surrounded by people who've recently moved to the city and are struggling to find daycare.

This isn't an issue when it comes to other expenses: for example its fairly easy to find a property to buy/sell, although it's very expensive compared to the rest of WA state. And there aren't queues in IKEA for baby cribs or other child expenses :)

So is that what is bothering you? That you feel waitlist as turning children into names, not numbers? I get that, I would never want to feel like my child was a number to her teacher. (although they are assigned a number every year)

Well, it sounds like you may be very passionate about this, my question is, outside of posting here, what is your next step to fix the problem that you are seeing?

Others have suggested that you write the lawmakers, is that what you are planning on doing?

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
The need would still be there, but you won't have to wait for it. Just like you can always buy a plane ticket for Christmas, even if it costs a lot more than on other days. Likewise it is easy to buy a house in Seattle, although you need a lot of money to afford one.



Having a long waiting list means parents who both want to work full-time are unable to do so, even if they have the funds to pay for childcare. I personally know people who are struggling with this issue. Increasing the price would increase the profitability of daycares and make access to their services easier to plan for.



It is easy to demonstrate why this is true with an exaggerated example. Let's say you increase your daycare price to $100,000 per week. At those rates only someone like Bill Gates would be able to afford it and the waitlist would be gone. Obviously you can't charge $100k per week, but there is always a price point at which the waiting list would become minimal without hurting your profitability. In economic theory this is referred to as the "supply and demand" curve.



I completely agree that overregulation is the root cause of the daycare deficit! However that doesn't explain the business practices of daycares in the existing legal environment :)

Ok, let's break this down into real-world.

Your supply and demand theory is seriously flawed when it comes to this particular issue (waitlist) and this industry.

Let's pretend for a moment that Provider Amy does as you suggest and raises her rates- double what she currently charges. She lets everyone on her waitlist know that's what she's doing.
Likely, nobody on her waitlist will drop because they are not currently paying her that rate until they enroll. They will wait to make that decision until they know if they have a spot.

Provider Amy then lets her current clients know she's doubling their rate. For argument's sake, let's say 3/4 of them can't afford that and leave.
Amy then goes through her waitlist only to find that 1 of them will pay double fees.... she's not making any additional profit with this new fee.
She's lost 3/4 of her clients who used to pay reasonable fees and only gained one who pays more.
She's now working TWICE as hard in the future to find those clients who will fill those premium $ spots, because those clients are few and far between. She also takes a higher risk when those clients leave for the inevitable name brand preschools (the spots will be vacant-making $0).

While those spots are vacant- insurance and utilities are still due, licensing costs money and zero is being contributed to her retirement funds.

Had she kept her reasonable fee, her clients likely stay longer in the long run (in-home typically costs less than centers and less than formal preschools), which means less turn over, less advertising, less effort and supplies used to fill vacant spots (that again- make $0). She would also be making a nominal fee from waitlists (IF she charges one) and again, working less to fill spots when children age out or leave. Job security.

Sure, your waitlist may be gone but Provider Amy did not profit and works harder to find the $ in the haystack. You may think that "well, when the clients DO come, there won't be a wait for them". True. But Amy took a loss waiting for them.

There are so many behind the scenes intricacies of this business that so many outsiders don't realize.

Originally Posted by Snowmom:

Let's pretend for a moment that Provider Amy does as you suggest and raises her rates- double what she currently charges. She lets everyone on her waitlist know that's what she's doing.
Likely, nobody on her waitlist will drop because
Provider Amy then lets her current clients know she's doubling their rate. For argument's sake, let's say 3/4 of them can't afford that and leave.
Amy then goes through her waitlist only to find that 1 of them will pay double fees.... she's not making any additional profit with this new fee.
She's lost 3/4 of her clients who used to pay reasonable fees and only gained one who pays more.

Thank you for the response, now we're finally getting to a real answer :) So you're saying people won't drop off the waitlist but would refuse the spot eventually and leave you with no clients in the end? Or in other words daycare providers don't have a stable supply of customers and prefer a long waitlist to maintain job security?

However your example is flawed as it represents a bad business practice. Real life businesses do this differently:

1. You start with a price of $100/week and a waitlist of two years
2. You keep the same price for existing customers but raise the price for anyone joining next year to $120
3. As you go through the waitlist it shortens and now your waitlist is 1.5 years long
4. Next year you raise your price for new customers by another 20% to $150
5. After going through the waitlist you've now shortened it to 1 year only and stop raising your fees

That's how my local barbershop which suddenly became very popular did this. I still pay the same fee as I did a few years back, but new customers have to pay 50% more. They are now considering increasing the price even more, as they still have more customers than they can handle.

An alternative option is to have a fee to skip the waiting list. So for say $5000 you'd get to be the first family to get offered a spot. That's how Disneyland works - if you stay at their very expensive hotels you get to skip some of the lines. This is also how airports work - if you buy a business class ticket you can skip the regular line to the security check.

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
Real life businesses do this differently:

No.

Real-life business owners do whatever they want.

How long have you owned and operated your own business?

Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
No.

Real-life business owners do whatever they want.

How long have you owned and operated your own business?

Obviously they do! If they didn't, I would have been here asking this question :) However I'm curious why they do this - both small daycare centers and large corporations like Bright Horizons. Daycare represents one of the few examples of hard to get products in the Western world and is therefore a curiosity.

I don't run a daycare myself but my family runs assisted living facilities so I'm well familiar with what service providers have to deal on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
Thank you for the response, now we're finally getting to a real answer :) So you're saying people won't drop off the waitlist but would refuse the spot eventually and leave you with no clients in the end? Or in other words daycare providers don't have a stable supply of customers and prefer a long waitlist to maintain job security?

However your example is flawed as it represents a bad business practice. Real life businesses do this differently:

1. You start with a price of $100/week and a waitlist of two years
2. You keep the same price for existing customers but raise the price for anyone joining next year to $120
3. As you go through the waitlist it shortens and now your waitlist is 1.5 years long
4. Next year you raise your price for new customers by another 20% to $150
5. After going through the waitlist you've now shortened it to 1 year only and stop raising your fees

That's how my local barbershop which suddenly became very popular did this. I still pay the same fee as I did a few years back, but new customers have to pay 50% more. They are now considering increasing the price even more, as they still have more customers than they can handle.

An alternative option is to have a fee to skip the waiting list. So for say $5000 you'd get to be the first family to get offered a spot. That's how Disneyland works - if you stay at their very expensive hotels you get to skip some of the lines. This is also how airports work - if you buy a business class ticket you can skip the regular line to the security check.

You know, it sounds like you have it all figured out, so go for it! Put these ideas into practice and open a daycare! Another quality daycare will surely help shorten a few waiting lists.

Originally Posted by Rockgirl:
You know, it sounds like you have it all figured out, so go for it! Put these ideas into practice and open a daycare! Another quality daycare will surely help shorten a few waiting lists.

I'm not trying to convince anyone I know more about their business than they do! Obviously I don't know jack about how to run a daycare. Otherwise I wouldn't be here asking the sages of Daycare.com for their opinion.

All I'm asking is why daycare businesses follow an unusual pricing strategy. So far the answer seems to be "because daycares are extremely risk averse and prefer having very long waiting lists instead of trying to maximize their long term revenue".

Have you ever worked overtime and had your check come out to less than if you just worked your normal schedule?

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
Thank you for the response, now we're finally getting to a real answer :) So you're saying people won't drop off the waitlist but would refuse the spot eventually and leave you with no clients in the end?
Or in other words daycare providers don't have a stable supply of customers and prefer a long waitlist to maintain job security? No, I'm saying with your approach, there is no money. While yes, job security is important to absolutely everyone who HAS a job, maintaining profit along with longevity is the goal.

However your example is flawed as it represents a bad business practice. The example I gave is what would happen with YOUR approach. YOUR approach is what's bad business practice because it leads the provider down a path of more work, less profit.
Real life businesses do this differently:

1. You start with a price of $100/week and a waitlist of two years
2. You keep the same price for existing customers but raise the price for anyone joining next year to $120
3. As you go through the waitlist it shortens and now your waitlist is 1.5 years long
4. Next year you raise your price for new customers by another 20% to $150
5. After going through the waitlist you've now shortened it to 1 year only and stop raising your fees

Most daycares already raise their prices for new clients, so your point is moot.
As long as there is a shortage of providers, nothing changes the wait for a daycare. Price gouging only shifts the wait to other daycares. But hey, it's not illegal in your state (although it is in others).

That's how my local barbershop which suddenly became very popular did this. I still pay the same fee as I did a few years back, but new customers have to pay 50% more. They are now considering increasing the price even more, as they still have more customers than they can handle.

An alternative option is to have a fee to skip the waiting list. So for say $5000 you'd get to be the first family to get offered a spot. That's how Disneyland works - if you stay at their very expensive hotels you get to skip some of the lines. This is also how airports work - if you buy a business class ticket you can skip the regular line to the security check.

^ THAT is actually not a bad idea, although considered unethical in our line of work. However, in my experience, the clients who have the most money, aren't always the best ones. But for $5000, I'd consider it.

Replied above

Originally Posted by Snowmom:
Price gouging only shifts the wait to other daycares. But hey, it's not illegal in your state (although it is in others).

THAT is actually not a bad idea, although considered unethical in our line of work. However, in my experience, the clients who have the most money, aren't always the best ones. But for $5000, I'd consider it.

Got it. So essentially daycares are trying to avoid being accused of unethical behaviour and thus losing clients in the long term. Otherwise everyone would maximize their prices or charge fees to skip the waitlist. This pretty much answers my original question.

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
Got it. So essentially daycares are trying to avoid being accused of unethical behaviour and thus losing clients in the long term. Otherwise everyone would maximize their prices or charge fees to skip the waitlist. This pretty much answers my original question.

My question is, where are all of these families going who are now priced out of the waitlist?

Done.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by jenboo:
My question is, where are all of these families going who are now priced out of the waitlist?

In Seattle the average daycare price is somewhere around $2000/month which already prices out a large percentage of families. People deal with in various ways, just like my grand grandparents dealed with their children back in the day when daycare was not as common :)

Originally Posted by Myst_Seattle:
In Seattle the average daycare price is somewhere around $2000/month which already prices out a large percentage of families. People deal with in various ways, just like my grand grandparents dealed with their children back in the day when daycare was not as common :)

It sounds as though you've just disproved your own theory. From what you've just said, Seattle providers have already raised their rates to the point where a large percentage of families can't afford care and yet, there are still long waiting lists that still exist. Once day care becomes too expensive, you're right...many people will decide to stay home and raise their own kids. Working won't be a viable choice for them. That won't result in shorter waiting lists. They will still exist because most of the providers who exist currently will have priced themselves out of business. Fewer providers doesn't equal shorter wait lists for the parents who still need/choose to work.

Wait list are needed due to the child care need/ provider ratio. The are more children than providers. The only thing that could change that is birth control or more providers.

Nope. The AVERAGE price of daycare in Seattle is $1200.

http://www.seattleschild.com/Cut-the-cost-of-childcare/

Originally Posted by e.j.:
It sounds as though you've just disproved your own theory. From what you've just said, Seattle providers have already raised their rates to the point where a large percentage of families can't afford care and yet, there are still long waiting lists that still exist. Once day care becomes too expensive, you're right...many people will decide to stay home and raise their own kids. Working won't be a viable choice for them. That won't result in shorter waiting lists. They will still exist because most of the providers who exist currently will have priced themselves out of business. Fewer providers doesn't equal shorter wait lists for the parents who still need/choose to work.

Not really. This just shows that $2000 is not high enough, which isn't surprising as we have tens of thousands of highly paid Boeing, Microsoft, Amazon, Google employees living in the city. However no one has infinite money so at some price point (say $3000) parents will start dropping out of the waitlist and it will become possible to get a spot on a short notice.

Originally Posted by tandow:
Nope. The AVERAGE price of daycare in Seattle is $1200.

http://www.seattleschild.com/Cut-the-cost-of-childcare/

That article is from 2016 and lists $381 per week for center based care, which is $1524 per month. Unfortunately costs have further increased around here, especially if you want something close to downtown.

The average Boeing employees makes $125,000 a year. There are 80,000 employees in the Greater Seattle region.

Microsoft? $207,500. 42,000 employees.

Amazon? $159,000. 25,000 employees. (including employees in their fulfillment centers that are in places like Renton and Dupont)

Google? $200,500. They're not even CLOSE to being one of the Seattle metros top employers, with only 98,000 employees worldwide.

The average NET salary in Seattle is $69,000.

Basically what you're saying is that we need to raise our prices so that only the wealthy are entitled to quality childcare.

Nevermind that we have years of experience, and actually know what we're talking about.

If someone offered me $5000 to get off my waitlist I'd laugh in their face. I don't want parents that think they can "buy" me. My policies are mine, and they're set for a reason. Entitled parents in the beginning typically end up being problem parents while using your services. They want it when they want it, no matter how you or the other parents of children in your care are affected.

But you be stubborn and stick to your guns.... your OPINION on this is obviously worth more to you than our experience.

In the beginning, I wanted to stay up with this thread just because it interested me but now I'm thouroughly:confused:and going:eek:.

"What does any of this have to do with the price of beans in China?" as my grandfather used to say:lol: