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  #1  
Old 06-25-2009, 09:16 AM
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Default Pennsylvania DPW

I'm desparately hoping someone can help me. Until this past week, I ran a successful daycare out of my home. I had no shortage of clients and the money was paying our mortgage and other household expenses. My husband is disabled and cant work. Someone called the state and told them I had an illegal daycare and a man showed up and ordered me to send the children home and I was shut down the next day. We relied on the income to support ourselves and i want to know if anyone knows a way I can appeal this decision. can i run my daycare out of a friend's home? does anyone know if PA does follow up inspections? has anyone else had a run in with pennsylvania and can offer advice on what we do next?
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  #2  
Old 06-25-2009, 08:32 PM
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I know little about PA's rules (OK, zilch) but I'm going to bet money that you're now on their "watch" list.

I'd talk with your county about what it would take to get the ball rolling ASAP to become licensed, then this issue will go away. Would it be possible for them to "fast track" considering the situation?

Tell them your two options are: Get licensed so you can work and earn a living, pay taxes, or they can show you where you need to sign up for welfare and food stamps so you can survive.
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Old 07-09-2009, 05:03 AM
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I would just bring the kids back and file for a license. And don't open your door anymore! It's sad that the state has to stick their nose in everyones business. Child care is between the parent and the provider. The state is just looking to pad their wallets.
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Old 07-10-2009, 06:16 AM
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Im sorry this happened to you. I agree, just bring the kids back and dont open your door. Apply for a license if you have to. The state should just mind their own damn business. It's between parents and providers. End of story. I had a licensed center and they showed up maybe once every 2 years? They are supposed to make sure the enviroment is safe once every 2 years? The parents are in and out everyday. They are smart enough to make their own decisions about the enviroment their children are in. The parents know what's going on, the state is clueless.

I dont have a license now and I am careful not to give out my address or answer my door when I am not expecting company. It's none of their business what I do in my home. If the parents had a concern about the way I care for their kids, then they would leave or call DCF.

Good luck Please keep us posted.
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Old 07-10-2009, 08:14 AM
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im sorry this happened to you. I agree, just bring the kids back and dont open your door. Apply for a license if you have to. The state should just mind their own damn business. It's between parents and providers. End of story. I had a licensed center and they showed up maybe once every 2 years? They are supposed to make sure the enviroment is safe once every 2 years? The parents are in and out everyday. They are smart enough to make their own decisions about the enviroment their children are in. The parents know what's going on, the state is clueless.

I dont have a license now and i am careful not to give out my address or answer my door when i am not expecting company. It's none of their business what i do in my home. If the parents had a concern about the way i care for their kids, then they would leave or call dcf.

Good luck please keep us posted.
very well said and i totally agree! What more/greater inspection than parents coming into our home 2 times each day times how ever many familes you care for.......gosh that certainly should be enough.
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Old 07-19-2009, 05:54 AM
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Default I don't suggest that!

If someone called you in once, they will probably do it again. I agree that the state should not have to be involved with your private business. If the parents are happy with you and the care you provide, things should continue as usual. However, that is not reality. You have to follow the rules in your State. If licensing is reqired, you must abide by the law, like it or not. If you are caught again, you may not have the option to run a legal childcare business. You mentioned running the childcare in a friends home...If that is an option for the short term, mabe you could watch the kids there on the hush hush so you wont lose income while you go through the licensing process for your home. Then you will be legit and wont have to worry about a knock on the door. Dont think you can just watch the kids in your house and not open the door if they come again. That is rediculous. It might have worked the first time, but now they know what you are doing. They can call the police department to enforce the law.
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  #7  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:14 AM
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Default this link may help

http://www.daycare.com/pennsylvania/
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  #8  
Old 07-28-2009, 06:37 PM
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Default Surprised

I'm surprised by some of the responses here! Anyone who thinks the state has no business regulating a daycare has no business running one. States regulate and license all sorts of businesses, as they should, and any business caring for small, helpless children whose parents are not there to monitor the care warrant more, not less, oversight than the local coffee shop. If you really understand and care properly for children and can provide facilities and services that pass muster with the state, then go for the license.
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Old 07-29-2009, 05:56 AM
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Just as you could state 10 reasons why everyone should be licensed, I am sure unlicensed providers could state 10 reasons why they should not have to be. It is just a personal opinion--both ways. Ultimately in the end.....it should be the parents opinion that counts. As they are the ones going into the home/center 2 or more times per day and it is their child. Seashell stated it quite well.

And to say that--I quote "Anyone who thinks the state has no business regulating a daycare has no business running one." is quite a harsh statement to unlicensed providers because you don't know them nor do you know what kind of program they offer and use. Being licensed is just a piece of paper that took a lot of bs to get. There are good and bad in both licensed and unlicensed.
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Old 07-29-2009, 06:56 AM
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Default Licensing is a joke

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I'm surprised by some of the responses here! Anyone who thinks the state has no business regulating a daycare has no business running one. States regulate and license all sorts of businesses, as they should, and any business caring for small, helpless children whose parents are not there to monitor the care warrant more, not less, oversight than the local coffee shop. If you really understand and care properly for children and can provide facilities and services that pass muster with the state, then go for the license.
This is a long standing debate on this board and we all need to respectfully agree to disagree. However, assumptions are being made by the pro - license group that non-licensed providers are uneducated and poor quality.

I am an unlicensed provider. I also hold a Masters in Early Childhood Education. I serve as educational consultant to several area licensed centers and I was the director of a large (licensed ) center for over 10 years. I have over 20 years in the field. You will find that this is true for many ( not all) unlicensed providers. I know a great many unlicensed caregivers in my area. We are not child abusers. We are not child molesters. We are not out to beat the system. Our children are well cared for, well educated and loved. We know that the licensing system does not work and we do not put faith in the licensing body.

During my time as a licensed provider (about 10 years) my program had contact with licensing twice. Once during initial inspection and once when a parent complained because her child had chicken pox. Consider, 2 visits in 10 years. Do you honestly believe that an accurate assessment of the program can be made in a few hours over the course of 10 years? A license gives parents a false sense of security. They let their guards down and believe that if the program is licensed, it is safe. I belong to a group that believes that it is the parents responsibility to observe the program at drop off and pick up. I have said this before. Parents are in the center twice a day. Licensing? I am sure there are places that are inspected more often than mine was, but honestly, do you think an occasional visit can truly assess the quality of the program? It is an expense to the program and ultimately the parents, that do not provide protection or safety. It is very easy for a provider to meet the minimum standards to obtain a license. But how often are those standards upheld once the license is obtained? Perhaps if the government took to weekly visits to the program. In this case, the cost to the tax payers, the parents, the center would create a weekly tution bill parents simply could not afford. So whatís the answer?

Simply put, the licensing system does not work. What does work? What is the answer? I am sure there are many ideas on this board, but for me, itís responsible and observing parents. As a child, you were asked to stop, look and listen when you crossed the street. It should be the same when you drop off and pick up your child. Pay attention! If you are not happy, speak up or leave. DCF is there to deal with those people who do not treat children kindly. Licensing does nothing to ensure quality care. It is a myth. If a system was devised that actually worked, I might consider becoming licensed. But would it really matter? The providers on this board are here because we care about children. We do our very best to protect and offer them a healthy and loving enviroment. Would a license change that? No. There are good and bad in both the licensed and unlicensed population. There was a center in our town that was terrible. The kids watched TV all day, they never went outside, the teachers sat in the corners and gossiped while the kids ran wild. The were constantly over ratio and understaffed. They were investigated time and time again and nothing happened. They were slapped on the wrist and business continued as usual. They paid a fine for being over ratio, but they made more money than they paid out from having extra kids, so whatís the incentive for not continuing the practice? Itís like bars who serve under age kids. They make more serving the kids then they pay in fines. Maybe they get caught, maybe they donít. But they still come out ahead and may even raise rates to cover the cost of the fine.

Let me explain the inspection process in CT. ABC daycare is accused of running an unsanitary program, lets say improper diaper changing. The state visits. They tour the center and make a list of items that need to be changed. They observe the providers changing diapers (Yes, they do it perfectly because they are being watched) They leave the list with the center who may or may not correct the issues. The center then submitís a corrective action report describing the changes. The state never visits again to ensure those changes have been made. The case is closed. Lets look at something bigger, a parent says their child is being abused.

The state brings DCF on the investigation. DCF investigates the charges, talks to the parents, observes teacher / child interaction. Licensing? They look for minor infractions and leave the list with the center that will be responded to with a written corrective action report that is filed away and never followed up on. DCF handles the abuse portion of the case and licensing has nothing to do with it. If the complaint is verified? The teacher is fired and itís business as usual. If nothing is found? Itís still business as usual. It is very rare that a program loses itís license and if they do, itís usually because DCF says so, not licensing.

So whatís the solution if licensing doesnít work? Responsible parenting! Pay attention and use your instincts! If it doesnít feel right, leave and tell your friends. Licensing wonít do anything. So back to why some of us donít choose to become licensed? I personally believe parentís are smart enough to make their own decisions, inspect the program on a daily basis and be in tune to their children. I also wonít rip them off by having to charge them more so that I can offer them a piece of paper called a license. Child care is personal thing, between a parent and a provider. That sums it up for me. Agree or disagree, but respect my opinion and donít assume I do not offer a quality program because I am smart enough to know that the licensing system is a joke.
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  #11  
Old 07-29-2009, 08:11 AM
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Thank you seashell. That was extremely well said and I appreciate the time and thought you put into posting it.
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  #12  
Old 07-29-2009, 09:11 AM
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Well said. People need to take the time to get educated on the subject before they jump to conclusions and pass judgement on others.
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  #13  
Old 07-29-2009, 10:04 AM
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Food for thought and well written.
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  #14  
Old 08-04-2009, 06:37 PM
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Default Yippy!

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Originally Posted by seashell View Post
This is a long standing debate on this board and we all need to respectfully agree to disagree. However, assumptions are being made by the pro - license group that non-licensed providers are uneducated and poor quality.

I am an unlicensed provider. I also hold a Masters in Early Childhood Education. I serve as educational consultant to several area licensed centers and I was the director of a large (licensed ) center for over 10 years. I have over 20 years in the field. You will find that this is true for many ( not all) unlicensed providers. I know a great many unlicensed caregivers in my area. We are not child abusers. We are not child molesters. We are not out to beat the system. Our children are well cared for, well educated and loved. We know that the licensing system does not work and we do not put faith in the licensing body.

During my time as a licensed provider (about 10 years) my program had contact with licensing twice. Once during initial inspection and once when a parent complained because her child had chicken pox. Consider, 2 visits in 10 years. Do you honestly believe that an accurate assessment of the program can be made in a few hours over the course of 10 years? A license gives parents a false sense of security. They let their guards down and believe that if the program is licensed, it is safe. I belong to a group that believes that it is the parents responsibility to observe the program at drop off and pick up. I have said this before. Parents are in the center twice a day. Licensing? I am sure there are places that are inspected more often than mine was, but honestly, do you think an occasional visit can truly assess the quality of the program? It is an expense to the program and ultimately the parents, that do not provide protection or safety. It is very easy for a provider to meet the minimum standards to obtain a license. But how often are those standards upheld once the license is obtained? Perhaps if the government took to weekly visits to the program. In this case, the cost to the tax payers, the parents, the center would create a weekly tution bill parents simply could not afford. So whatís the answer?

Simply put, the licensing system does not work. What does work? What is the answer? I am sure there are many ideas on this board, but for me, itís responsible and observing parents. As a child, you were asked to stop, look and listen when you crossed the street. It should be the same when you drop off and pick up your child. Pay attention! If you are not happy, speak up or leave. DCF is there to deal with those people who do not treat children kindly. Licensing does nothing to ensure quality care. It is a myth. If a system was devised that actually worked, I might consider becoming licensed. But would it really matter? The providers on this board are here because we care about children. We do our very best to protect and offer them a healthy and loving enviroment. Would a license change that? No. There are good and bad in both the licensed and unlicensed population. There was a center in our town that was terrible. The kids watched TV all day, they never went outside, the teachers sat in the corners and gossiped while the kids ran wild. The were constantly over ratio and understaffed. They were investigated time and time again and nothing happened. They were slapped on the wrist and business continued as usual. They paid a fine for being over ratio, but they made more money than they paid out from having extra kids, so whatís the incentive for not continuing the practice? Itís like bars who serve under age kids. They make more serving the kids then they pay in fines. Maybe they get caught, maybe they donít. But they still come out ahead and may even raise rates to cover the cost of the fine.

Let me explain the inspection process in CT. ABC daycare is accused of running an unsanitary program, lets say improper diaper changing. The state visits. They tour the center and make a list of items that need to be changed. They observe the providers changing diapers (Yes, they do it perfectly because they are being watched) They leave the list with the center who may or may not correct the issues. The center then submitís a corrective action report describing the changes. The state never visits again to ensure those changes have been made. The case is closed. Lets look at something bigger, a parent says their child is being abused.

The state brings DCF on the investigation. DCF investigates the charges, talks to the parents, observes teacher / child interaction. Licensing? They look for minor infractions and leave the list with the center that will be responded to with a written corrective action report that is filed away and never followed up on. DCF handles the abuse portion of the case and licensing has nothing to do with it. If the complaint is verified? The teacher is fired and itís business as usual. If nothing is found? Itís still business as usual. It is very rare that a program loses itís license and if they do, itís usually because DCF says so, not licensing.

So whatís the solution if licensing doesnít work? Responsible parenting! Pay attention and use your instincts! If it doesnít feel right, leave and tell your friends. Licensing wonít do anything. So back to why some of us donít choose to become licensed? I personally believe parentís are smart enough to make their own decisions, inspect the program on a daily basis and be in tune to their children. I also wonít rip them off by having to charge them more so that I can offer them a piece of paper called a license. Child care is personal thing, between a parent and a provider. That sums it up for me. Agree or disagree, but respect my opinion and donít assume I do not offer a quality program because I am smart enough to know that the licensing system is a joke.
Thank you Seashell! Finally another provider who agrees with me that licensing is nothing but a joke. I believe licensing, esp. TX licensing are a bunch of hypocrites.

It is quite funny and sad at the same time when I read up on my former center. There is a website to look up violations (I don't know if all centers do that) but now they have a system to rate their "standards". TX licensing name some of the stupidest standards as high (such as an ACTIVITIY plan not being posted) to low (e.r. card not filled out, which I would think is more important )

Anyway I am pleased to see that I am not the only who thinks the same!

P.S. To to the poster about how the license is free. I am sorry but in TX you must pay for your license. The last time I checked it is a standard fee plus so many dollars per child that you are licensed for. That is how they pad their pockets.
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Old 08-04-2009, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Former Teacher View Post
Thank you Seashell! Finally another provider who agrees with me that licensing is nothing but a joke. I believe licensing, esp. TX licensing are a bunch of hypocrites.

It is quite funny and sad at the same time when I read up on my former center. There is a website to look up violations (I don't know if all centers do that) but now they have a system to rate their "standards". TX licensing name some of the stupidest standards as high (such as an ACTIVITIY plan not being posted) to low (e.r. card not filled out, which I would think is more important )

Anyway I am pleased to see that I am not the only who thinks the same!

P.S. To to the poster about how the license is free. I am sorry but in TX you must pay for your license. The last time I checked it is a standard fee plus so many dollars per child that you are licensed for. That is how they pad their pockets.
Where do you think the funding comes from that pays for that website to look up violations, and the inspectors wages and expenses who find those violations?

The cost of the license helps fund that.

For those bashing licensing, think the amount of work you as a parent would have to go through to cover the same thing that a licensor does-fire extinguisher inspection, egress window inspection, fire escape plan checking, double checking the vaccinations of any pets in the home, running your own well test, etc etc.

There's a hell of a long list that would have to be done by each and every parent if we had a "parent's responsibility" instead of licensing.
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Old 08-05-2009, 05:31 AM
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Where do you think the funding comes from that pays for that website to look up violations, and the inspectors wages and expenses who find those violations?

The cost of the license helps fund that.

For those bashing licensing, think the amount of work you as a parent would have to go through to cover the same thing that a licensor does-fire extinguisher inspection, egress window inspection, fire escape plan checking, double checking the vaccinations of any pets in the home, running your own well test, etc etc.

There's a hell of a long list that would have to be done by each and every parent if we had a "parent's responsibility" instead of licensing.
The whole point is, after initial inspection, the state doesn't ever do this again unless a complaint is filed. The items you listed are important, but situations change. My fire extinquisher could expire a month later. The dog needs shots every year . . . etc. There is no follow up with the state! Maybe other states are different in their practices, but I still believe it's the parents responsibility, not the state. Child care is too personal to leave to a stranger.
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Old 08-15-2009, 04:05 PM
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Default Dpw pa

Sorry to say, PA has strict rules about all centers. It's a shame because DPW is short-handed and when the site know that they are coming, they spruce everything up. Some jerk must have reported you, and without following their precious regulations, which are ridiculous, you cannot continue your business. Sorry. Where in PA are you?
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Old 08-17-2009, 01:44 PM
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Sorry to say, PA has strict rules about all centers. It's a shame because DPW is short-handed and when the site know that they are coming, they spruce everything up. Some jerk must have reported you, and without following their precious regulations, which are ridiculous, you cannot continue your business. Sorry. Where in PA are you?
without disclosing my exact location for privacy purposes, i am in the north central part. i have gotten a few of my children back, but 6 doesn't compare to 17. my husband and adult son are home with me all day and we have many fun activities for the kids. they missed the pool this summer!
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Old 07-07-2010, 04:08 PM
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Smile do it legal!

To the North central PA caregiver,
I would advise you to do it legal if you really feel led to childcare. Yes PA is tough, but if you were caught w/ operating a non-licensed childcare, it can get costly! Not only will the state come down on you, but your local townships also have rules of how many children a person can watch at a given time. If the utilities get wind of it they too will get you for being a business, not to mention Uncle Sam and the IRS. You may need rezoning for your home as business/residential. Been there done that. The only way you could watch 17 kids, would be license as Center, or if you want to be a home group daycare, you can be licensed for up to 12 kids at any given time. The up-side to running it out of your home legally is that you can claim many tax advantages on your home for upkeep and upgrades. Once in the system you also have many resources, training, and grants available.
Food For Thought......
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:44 AM
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Well, first off I have to say I am NOT pro-licensing. That said...

If you are operating an unlicensed ILLEGAL daycare (as opposed to an unlicensed legal one) you are always at risk of being shut down. While I certainly feel for the OP, that is the risk she chose to take.

As for not opening the door...not a good idea. If you are operating illegally and refuse to allow them inside I can promise you that they will return with law enforcement and a warrent.

My advice to the OP is to get the ball rolling on licensing today! Get letters from your parents stating how wonderful you are and beg licesning to let you operate with a provisional license while you complete the process.

If that doesn't work, take the family with the most amount of kids and see if you can nanny for them during the licensing process.

Good luck! I know that this is a horrible time for you and I really do sympathize with your situation.
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:47 AM
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To the North central PA caregiver,
I would advise you to do it legal if you really feel led to childcare. Yes PA is tough, but if you were caught w/ operating a non-licensed childcare, it can get costly! Not only will the state come down on you, but your local townships also have rules of how many children a person can watch at a given time. If the utilities get wind of it they too will get you for being a business, not to mention Uncle Sam and the IRS. You may need rezoning for your home as business/residential. Been there done that. The only way you could watch 17 kids, would be license as Center, or if you want to be a home group daycare, you can be licensed for up to 12 kids at any given time. The up-side to running it out of your home legally is that you can claim many tax advantages on your home for upkeep and upgrades. Once in the system you also have many resources, training, and grants available.
Food For Thought......
There is no reason to believe that because she isn't licensed she isn't paying taxes! I have NO idea where people get that idea (you certainly aren't alone in that one!) but being unlicesned doesn't mean you don't pay taxes or issue tax statements to the parents. Also, the utility company has ZERO to do with anything...
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:53 AM
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There is no reason to believe that because she isn't licensed she isn't paying taxes! I have NO idea where people get that idea (you certainly aren't alone in that one!) but being unlicesned doesn't mean you don't pay taxes or issue tax statements to the parents. Also, the utility company has ZERO to do with anything...
ITA with you! I am not licensed ( my state does not require it) yet I still report my earnings.
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Old 07-08-2010, 08:56 AM
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Illegal is illegal -- I'm surprised so many are recommending that the OP continue breaking the law. I'm unlicensed, but there are still laws in my province that regulate what I do, and I do my best to follow them. Like someone else said, it was the OP's choice to break the law initially, regardless of the reason. If you steal a loaf of bread to feed your hungry children, you're still stealing and need to be ready to pay the consequences (whether it's fair or not).

OP, it sounds like you were doing a great job running your daycare. If you enjoyed it, just go ahead and get licensed and do it legally. If there's something about licensing you don't agree with, find another field to work in.

My thoughts & prayers to you and your family. It sounds like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place right now. I hope it works out!
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:51 PM
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without disclosing my exact location for privacy purposes, i am in the north central part. i have gotten a few of my children back, but 6 doesn't compare to 17. my husband and adult son are home with me all day and we have many fun activities for the kids. they missed the pool this summer!
I am in PA. And to 4-6 children, unrelated to you, you must be licensed. I don't know what you would need to have 17 kids. To me, that is insane. Now, we can all argue over all the regulations etc that each state has. But, in the end, it doesn't matter what we think, we have to abide by the laws in our state.
I am not licensed and until recently even accepted ccis. I never had any trouble by the subsidy agency. They know I have 3 kids that I care for and have 2 of my own. Since I am unlicensed. they said that I have my limit of unrelated children in my care, but I can have 1 more of my own. (no, thank you
Do you have a large house to accomandate such a large number of children?
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:06 PM
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i don't think being unlicensed is a big deal IF you're doing it within the guidelines. in my state, you can have 4 children and not have to be licensed. if you only have 4 children - why would you get a license if you don't have to?

i had 4 kids and i didn't get a license because i didn't want to be licensed. it gave me a lot more freedom, and i charged more than is average in the area partly because of the low ratio and partly because my degree is in early childhood - parents were willing to pay.

i always think about doctors when i read threads about this and people saying unlicensed care is no worse (or is worse than) licensed care. there are quite a few doctors i know of that are nothing more than drug dealers with a license. in fact, i had a doctor that lost his license for writing prescriptions that weren't warranted. he was literally no better than a thug on a street corner - but he had a license!
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  #26  
Old 07-08-2010, 05:28 PM
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without disclosing my exact location for privacy purposes, i am in the north central part. i have gotten a few of my children back, but 6 doesn't compare to 17. my husband and adult son are home with me all day and we have many fun activities for the kids. they missed the pool this summer!
HOLY COW!! 17 kids! Ok, I'm sorry but that is crazy!!! You said that your husband is disabled and cannot work so I assume that he is not fully physically capable of caring for children!

I am speechless.
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  #27  
Old 12-09-2012, 07:56 AM
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without disclosing my exact location for privacy purposes, i am in the north central part. i have gotten a few of my children back, but 6 doesn't compare to 17. my husband and adult son are home with me all day and we have many fun activities for the kids. they missed the pool this summer!
Whoooaaaaa! You had 17 kids? Am I reading that right!? No wonder you were turned in! In PA you can ONLY have 3 kids that are unrelated to you without a license! And related ONLY means kids or grand kids! Not nieces, not nephews, not cousins...
WITH a license you can only have up to 6!!!!
I am unlicensed in PA bc when I was a director of a center in the city, the regulation was 5 kids without a license. After I opened my FDC I found out they lowered it to 3 so I looked into getting a license and found out I had to close during the process which could take up to 3 months! As a single mom of a new baby, I couldn't do that! So I raised my prices and only take 3 kids (usually friends ask for after school care and I accept since our kids are friends, but Its only every now and then, so no biggie).
The parents I have are ok with the higher prices bc I have a very small group and one even said its more like a "nanny share" situation.
I would never take 17 kids! Ever! How the heck can you possibly handle that? God bless you for your patience! But that's not safe at all! Sorry! And I amanne of the few people that doesn't completely agree with licensing. I feel parents are the best judge and don't feel the states regulations always make sense. Like some states saying little babies can't be in a pack and play while awake.. Sorry, there is no way I can carry a baby around ALL day and still give quality one on one care to my other 2 kids. And laying them on a blanket on the floor is NOT safe when you have other kids playing there.
I tell ALL my parents that I am unlicensed and that I feel they are the best judge of my care and my setup. I have tons of references they can call and even suggest a morning visit to see how we do things here BEFORE they enroll!
My insurance agent knows what I do and has me covered with a $1,000,000 umbrella policy attached to my overly protected homeowners policy. I don't take the kids in my car, so no worries there! But seriously, if you were turned in once, it WILL happen again
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  #28  
Old 12-09-2012, 11:32 AM
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THREE year old thread, guys!!
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  #29  
Old 03-29-2011, 08:41 AM
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Oh Boy if I can warn you against anything it is please do not ignore them and just bring the kids back. First of all are you certain that the person who came was really the DPW? Secondly you are allowed to have up to 6 children in your home for care without licensing. If you had more than 6 then yes you should apply for a license. The regs on a family home daycare are not that bad. Call your local DPW office and ask for a packet. I would not play around with the state in this situation. I know there is a lot of red tape but it is not worth going to jail or getting a fine over. Plus you become more trustworthy when you have a license and you also become able to receive the benefits from the state to help keep you up and running. Daycare is a very profitable business and there are so many opportunities out there to get grants to help with food, bills and supplies. Don't assume that you are on a "watch list" and that the state is out to get you. That is not their objective, they just want to make sure kids are safe. Because even if you are doing a great job taking care of the children you have, some other nutso out there might not be.
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  #30  
Old 03-29-2011, 12:59 PM
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I am a fully licensed provider. My state has two levels of licensing. Residential certificate at a lesser level and fully licensed at a higher level. I am fully licensed and it is not hard. Some of the regs bug me as being pointless..... (After 20+ years of child care and four kids of my own, I despise going to training classes that teach me how to diaper a baby).....But many of the rules and requirements are for the kids and that's what it's all about.

I personally believe that if you are running your day care the way it should be and keeping safety etc a major concern...then there is no reason not to be licensed.

Please do not take this wrong...I know that many of you are not licensed and run wonderful caring home day cares. But there are many out there who would not pass an inspection and the parents only care that it's cheap.

The state is trying to stop the homes where one women will try and care for 25 kids by herself and in conditions you shouldn't keep animals. My own licensor has been to LICENSED homes to do un-announced visits and found horrific things. She came to my home in tears one day after having been to a home where she found a 3 yr old duct taped to a pipe in a laundry room because he had mis-behaved. Who knows what the so-called provider would have done if she knew she wasn't ever going to be inspected. She lost her license and the kids in her "care" are safer now. Imagine if the provider had been un-licensed and knew there was no chance of an inspection?

The state is not perfect. They have many rules that don't really work well for those of us who actually DO child care.....There is waaaay too much paperwork involved.......they don't come often enough to catch a lot of the bad stuff....and too often for those of us who know we are doing a good job and hate the interruptions........but I believe that things would be horrible if child care was suddenly off radar. "Day cares" would pop up all over with kids being taken to women who are not equipped to take are of them.

I think in a perfect world that the PARENTS should be the ones who best know what the best day care is for their kids. But lets get real. We have ALL had kids in our care who's parents are pretty much a waste of space and the kids are just lucky to be in a safe enviroment with us. Those same parents wouldn't bat an eye in taking their kids to a day care down the street that was dirty and overcrowded if it meant saving some money. Sad...but it's a reality.

The state is trying to stop that from happening and to keep day care as good as it can.

Sorry to be so long-winded! Believe me, the state child-care leaders of this state know my name. I am not backward when it comes to telling them that some of their regulations are just plain stupid......but I know they are trying to keep the KIDS safe and not just make MY life easier. So we put up with each other!!
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  #31  
Old 03-29-2011, 03:04 PM
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Ok. I am unlicensed in NJ, BUT I operate within the state's unlicensed guidelines. I have all safety criteria met, keep in check with ratios, and I am 100% legal though not licensed or registered. So I operate LEGALLY in NJ.

You were not operating legally. PA has pretty easy to read guidelines and you were WELL over ratio and deserved to be shut down. I can understand being one maybe 2 kids over ratio on occasion, but 11 over ratio is dangerous and idiotic. There is no way you can evacuate all those kids in an emergency.

Hopefully you can find a different job to support your family, but I would not recommend doing this again in a different home. Unsafe!!!
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  #32  
Old 03-29-2011, 04:23 PM
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I'm in Pa...laws are laws no matter if you think they are ridiculous or not. You are breaking the law. It annoys me when ppl run illegal daycares. They should be reported. It's illegal to rob a bank, drive drunk, steal your neighbor's car....would you do that?

Daycare in homes....
With a daycare of 4 - 6 children you need to be registered which is a little different than having a license. 7 - 11 or 12 (im not sure) you must have a license and a full-time employee.
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  #33  
Old 12-09-2012, 02:25 PM
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I am a fully licensed provider. My state has two levels of licensing. Residential certificate at a lesser level and fully licensed at a higher level. I am fully licensed and it is not hard. Some of the regs bug me as being pointless..... (After 20+ years of child care and four kids of my own, I despise going to training classes that teach me how to diaper a baby).....But many of the rules and requirements are for the kids and that's what it's all about.

I personally believe that if you are running your day care the way it should be and keeping safety etc a major concern...then there is no reason not to be licensed.

Please do not take this wrong...I know that many of you are not licensed and run wonderful caring home day cares. But there are many out there who would not pass an inspection and the parents only care that it's cheap.

The state is trying to stop the homes where one women will try and care for 25 kids by herself and in conditions you shouldn't keep animals. My own licensor has been to LICENSED homes to do un-announced visits and found horrific things. She came to my home in tears one day after having been to a home where she found a 3 yr old duct taped to a pipe in a laundry room because he had mis-behaved. Who knows what the so-called provider would have done if she knew she wasn't ever going to be inspected. She lost her license and the kids in her "care" are safer now. Imagine if the provider had been un-licensed and knew there was no chance of an inspection?

The state is not perfect. They have many rules that don't really work well for those of us who actually DO child care.....There is waaaay too much paperwork involved.......they don't come often enough to catch a lot of the bad stuff....and too often for those of us who know we are doing a good job and hate the interruptions........but I believe that things would be horrible if child care was suddenly off radar. "Day cares" would pop up all over with kids being taken to women who are not equipped to take are of them.

I think in a perfect world that the PARENTS should be the ones who best know what the best day care is for their kids. But lets get real. We have ALL had kids in our care who's parents are pretty much a waste of space and the kids are just lucky to be in a safe enviroment with us. Those same parents wouldn't bat an eye in taking their kids to a day care down the street that was dirty and overcrowded if it meant saving some money. Sad...but it's a reality.

The state is trying to stop that from happening and to keep day care as good as it can.

Sorry to be so long-winded! Believe me, the state child-care leaders of this state know my name. I am not backward when it comes to telling them that some of their regulations are just plain stupid......but I know they are trying to keep the KIDS safe and not just make MY life easier. So we put up with each other!!
Agree wholeheartedly! My state inspects every year with more possible. The state I am in requires very strict standards. Kids in my town are no longer cared for with a ratio of 12/1. Things are so improved. The state has every right to require quality FCC centers and stick their nose in when it comes to children's care.
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  #34  
Old 03-13-2012, 12:55 PM
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Well I am going to assume you were shut down because you were running AN UNLICENSED ILLEGAL DAYCARE. and of course instead of going through the proper procedures such as GETTING LICENSED in the state you are in, and meeting all the proper requirements, you would much rather ILLEGALLY restart the day care at someone elses home to avoid getting caught doing so again. I am so tried of these people that throw a day care together, most of the time get paid CASH to avoid paying taxes, while I bust my hump everyday to pay my taxes and put up with daycare children WHICH ARE ALL AROUND ME because I have one particular daycare near me that is..you guessed it, ILLEGALLY RAN. this person throws the kids outside ALL DAY while the older ones (all ages ranging from 2 to 12) watch the younger ones, this piece of garbage welfare boogin gets paid by her clients so the older kids can do all the work while the neighborhood puts up with kids running everywhere unsupervised by an adult, she is one person and normally has up to 15 kids there at her house, and expects the neighborhood to put up with it, well guess what? this is one neighbor that said NO, and I REPORTED HER. Not only because shes a piece of garbage but because, if only the parents knew what she was doing with those kids during the day which was NOTHING, several were almost hit by cars on I cant even count how many occasions and this idiot blames the driver!! HELLO THE STREET ISNT THE PLAYGROUND FOR YOUR DAYCARE...........MORON. so you see, this is who these laws protect.......THE CHILDREN!!! and if you arent doing what you are supposed to, and you GOT CAUGHT then do the right thing and get your license and make sure you ABIDE THE RULES AND REGULATIONS in order to keep the kids safe and SO YOU CAN REPORT YOUR INCOME!!!!!
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  #35  
Old 03-13-2012, 07:22 PM
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Lightbulb Hmmm

This is a touchy subject for me, but I'm going to throw my 2 cents in anyway. First off, I have 2 degrees in the social services field and a Social Work License. I have 10+ years of working in the field. That being said, I agree that if you operate illegally, you are definitely taking a chance. But can we please keep in mind that unlicensed does not always mean illegal? In PA, I am allowed to have 3 children without a license.

Governmental officials is a touchy subject to me because some folks know that I was starting a center based daycare and was told everything was fine until I asked for a certificate of occupancy for daycare and was told that there were eleventy billion things that needed to be done first. Funny, because I've been in lots of daycare centers and there were not many at all who appeared to comply with the International Building Codes. Apparently, you can get grandfathered in... So let me get this straight... it's okay for ABC Daycare to do business in a building that does not meet the requirements but it is not okay for me? No safety issues, just compliant bathrooms for INFANTS and TODDLERS who will not be using the bathrooms anyway... Water fountains, doors that swing to the outside, child sized toilets and sinks... approximately $100,000+ in work? If one center has to comply to the IBC then all should have to.

Now, what do parents do when they cannot find daycare that will operate according to the hours that they need? And people wonder why parents leave their children at home.

Listen, at the end of the day, I am happier knowing that parents sent their children to SOMEONE to watch them. And as long as they weren't abused, neglected, etc. does it harm anyone? Case in point, I sent my daughter to an unlicensed woman because I TRUSTED her.

Oh and last year in PA:

1. A licensed center based daycare had a baby who suffered third degree burns from Drano being spilled into their diaper...
2. A licensed center based daycare was just in the news for the male staff who was molesting the children...
3. A licensed center based daycare had a carbon monoxide leak (I thought you had to have detectors?) and injured 13 people...
4. The licensed in home provider that was down the street from my daughter's provider had fleas, an incredibly dirty and disorganized house, and was yelling and screaming at two of the children so loud that I swore if she was watching my child I would have to contain myself from not needing bail money!

So whoever posted above and said that a license does not mean that the provider is more trustworthy or safe than an unlicensed provider was absolutely correct.

*end rant*
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  #36  
Old 03-14-2012, 10:26 AM
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People on both sides of the issue make valid points, children can become hurt or abused in either circumstances, however I think that we have to also remember that licensed child care providers are required to report incidents such as accidents and incidents. Licence-exempt (legally running child care with no license), unlicensed (illegally operating child care) and parents do not.

Of course the data is going to show that a majority of the injuries whether they are major or minor happen in licensed child care, no one else is required to report these incidents. If a parent takes their child to the park and their child falls and breaks their arm, their child is taken to the hospital, casted and then sent on their way. If I go to that same park and the child breaks their arm, I have to inform the parent, inform licensing and make a report about the incident which is then logged and used for data and informational purposes. Licensing may possibly come for a surpeise inspection to ensure that I am supervising the children and not neglecting etc. None of which is required of someone else.

Personally I think it's unfair to use the statistical data that's out there about how many children get hurt in licensed child care (including centers) vs the data that is out there about incidents that happen in licence-exempt or unlicensed child care ... in home life for that matter ... simply because the comparison information is not correct. If everyone was required to report all incidents (including parents) then the information would be correct. The only data that we do have is what licensed child cares are required to provide and the really serious incidents of abuse, neglect or negligence in unlicensed, license-exempt and home life that gets reported because Child Protective Services or law enforcement has to step in. Just my 2 cents.
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  #37  
Old 09-11-2012, 01:22 PM
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Seashell you apperantly do not have a good system. PA does yearly announced inspections and 1 unannounced a year. We are checked often for health and safety issues. AND YES PA is FREE to license your daycare. They make sure fire extinquishers are up to date each year as well as fire drills and 12-15 hours of child care trainings each year. Licenseing makes sure your providers stay current and up to date with many issues. It is not fair to run an unlicensed daycare and undercut centers who are keeping up with standards and it is illegal.
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  #38  
Old 09-11-2012, 02:10 PM
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Seashell you apperantly do not have a good system. PA does yearly announced inspections and 1 unannounced a year. We are checked often for health and safety issues. AND YES PA is FREE to license your daycare. They make sure fire extinquishers are up to date each year as well as fire drills and 12-15 hours of child care trainings each year. Licenseing makes sure your providers stay current and up to date with many issues. It is not fair to run an unlicensed daycare and undercut centers who are keeping up with standards and it is illegal.
Seashell last posted in this thread in 2009. Licensure is also NOT the only way to be current and up to date. Being unlicensed is also perfectly legal in many states.

I know many quality programs/providers who are legally unlicensed.
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  #39  
Old 03-14-2018, 06:06 AM
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Default Seashell...wrong on sooo many points!

Lets start with a simple 1 first. Bars serving minors not only get fined, they also loose their liquor license which costs in excess of $100K!!! So its not back to business as usual like you claim!!!

I also know many people with a Masters in Early Childhood Education. Not a single 1 of them has yet to be a parent! Like you, just a bunch of self proclaimed Bearers of ALL Wisdom & Knowledge! And sorry seashell, but the overwhelming majority of unlicensed providers dont have a Masters or any training in Early Childhood Education. Most do their CPR & 1st Aid and thats it. As if that should automatically qualify them! Dont believe me? Scroll thru Craigslist some time!

From CL...I once emailed a loving mother who said I could trust her 100% with my children in her post. She listed everything possible except for the fact she wasnt licensed. (theyre really easy to pick out) When I emailed her calling her out on her lack of a license, this loving mother responded with the most profanity laced email thats ever been written. Right down to calling me an f'ing c*nt!!! And physically threatening me! So much for your unlicensed Mother Teresas!!!

Parents already cant afford Childcare so your weekly inspection idea is mute! And as for costs, I see plenty of posts here where unlicensed providers are whining & crying about having to pay a stinking $120 to get thru the process. Chump change that will be made back off the tuition of 1 child in less than 1 week! In business theres a saying..."it takes money to make money!" The problem with you & the others is that you dont want to put a dime into your business! A reflection on how good of a provider you ARENT!!!

In addition to money is time. Time required to jump thru the hoops. If youre not willing to spend a stinking 8 hours in a required seminar to obtain a license, how much time should I expect you to spend insuring the health, safety, welfare and education of my child?

And how do you justify your BS excuses for not being licensed? You put it squarely on the responsible, observing parents! Somehow its their fault that their child tripped and knocked their teeth out while in YOUR care!!!

Haha! You would consider being licensed if a system were put in place that actually worked? You mean a system that meets ALL of YOUR requirements right seashell?! How about jail for endangering the health, safety & welfare of a child by an unlicensed provider seashell...would that do it for you? Sounds like a system that would work well!

Sorry seashell...in spite of all your self proclaimed righteous accomplishments, you are nothing more than an over glorified babysitter! Quit playing "the victim" and take responsibilty for your actions/inactions and quit blaming every one else!!!

btw...those 12 year old unqualified, untrained babysitters get $15ph per kid. Sharp contrast to the licensed, trained, educated child care provider who averages $2 stinking dollars per hour! Maybe thats your drive and motive huh seashell?!

30+ years in the industry and did my time in law school seashell!!! Go talk your BS to your mirror!
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  #40  
Old 03-14-2018, 06:10 AM
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Go talk your BS to your mirror!
You are ranting at a 9 year old post. Seashell has not been here for a couple years.
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  #41  
Old 03-14-2018, 06:53 AM
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I realize and fully understand that! That doesnt mean 1st time readers like me dont come here everyday looking for advice!!! Its for "their" benefit that I respond! Not seashells!!! Get it?!
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Old 03-15-2018, 07:30 AM
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I realize and fully understand that! That doesnt mean 1st time readers like me dont come here everyday looking for advice!!! Its for "their" benefit that I respond! Not seashells!!! Get it?!
Yikes? Why the hostility?

I am willing to wager that Cat Herder "gets it" but I have to wonder if you do?

I just don't see the need for so much anger

In the real world there's a saying.... "happiness is found within"
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  #43  
Old 03-15-2018, 07:46 AM
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Thank you BC

I felt she was just as angry as I am about illegal providers in my town getting away with it while I struggle to meet absurd "Quality Improvements" and deal with non-stop micromanagement. The problem is the State lacks resources to police them so only focuses on us to get their own financial needs filled (Race to the Top).

I do get it. We all do.

I just keep reporting. Again. And again. And again. It annoys the State, costs them money, makes mountains of paper work for them and that makes me happy. Imagine how quickly they would set up an investigation system if the complaints cost them more money than they get from policing us?

Join us on the dark side unregistered, we have cookies.
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