I have been following a case in my hometown about little girl who drowned at te public pool while in the care of her daycare. It has rocked our small town and I have posted before about this, giving updates on how the little girl was doing but here is a rundown of the situatation, followed by my question.

Daycare took trip to local pool, which has life guards (mostly teen girls).
Dcg was spotted by lifeguards at bottom of pool, pulled out, given CPR, and careflighted to nearby hospital.
She passed away about one month later after not being able to be taken of life support.

Daycare provider has been charged with negligent homicide and operating without a license.

The local head of social services (or the person in charge of licensing and inspection) is being charged also for basically not doing he job. (it appears she looked the other way in this case or at the very least, did not follow up with this particular daycare.
The city attorney is also filing a wrongful death suit against the city, as lifeguards were present and it is a public pool. (they specifically said the city is filing suit, not the family of the girl.)

Now, this is all hear say, but according to others, the dcp had 17 kids in her care and if she wa snot licensed, she would nly be able to have 5. Even with a license, she would only be able to have 7 + 2 SA. I heard she had an assistant with her at the pool and the kids were in two groups. I know nothing else about her, other than she is very well known in the community. Her family owns the local coffee shop as well.

So, here is my question. A little girl is dead and it looks like all in invovled in her daycare will be prosecuted. Do you think the parent holds any responsibility for putting her child in a daycare that is unlicensed and obviously over ratio? Would that be child endangerment? The reason I am curious is because I have had discussions with people and there have been mixed emotions. They all blame the daycare, but then also turn around and say that they cannot believe someone would knowingly enroll their kid in a daycare that had so many kids and then let them go to the pool no less. From what I have heard, mom knew the daycare situation, yet still sent her daughter. Again, all hear say, but if it is true, do you think the mom hold responsibility as well? (I say mom only, because I believe dad is out of the picture, although there may be a step dad involved.) Just curious what all of you think on this. Regardless, it is a sad case and my town is very upset about it. And if the suit against the city is won, it may be the end of our local pool, which is an amazing pool and I have been swimming in for almost 30 years

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Only if you could prove she knew the rules regarding daycare in her state

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Yes!

Parents should be held accountable for many of tragic things that happen to their children that are often ruled accidental.

Using unlicensed care is only one of many many many things I feel parents should take some responsibility in. I know that not all parents understand the whole licensing process and whether someone should or shouldn't be licensed but I feel it is in some ways their responsibility as a parent to educate themselves about these things if they are going to use them.

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This is the first time I am hearing about this. It is sad for all parties involved. I do feel to a certain degree that anytime a parent decides to used unlicensed care they are taking a risk. I think if the childcare provider and the parent were penalized for this kind of thing it would happen a lot less. More parents would verify that childcare providers were licensed and that would be the end to most of this mess. Was the mother negligent for using unlicensed care? Yes. When I look at the definition of neglect I feel this mom did not provide the child with proper childcare in her abscence. When bad things happen everyone has to start blaming and finger pointing but not many thinking about if they contributed to the problem. The more we keep allowing people to pass the blame and sue unnecessarily the more people will continue to take risks and not make better choices.

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A million times yes.

This is your child, for goodness sakes. I didn't put ds in daycare without knowing everything I needed to.

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I will say first of all that I think many times there are charges when there shouldn't be. An accident is just that.

BUT

Having said that in this case if you are going to press charges I have questions. First off I am speaking as someone who was trained in lifeguarding but never did it. And I am the mother of a lifeguard. Knowing how some pools operate I would have some questions. Were there enough guards on duty? Was the pool over capacity? If questions that that are answered improperly then yes there should be a case against the pool. I know for a fact these things do happen.

Next I will deal with the provider. Yes, she did wrong plain and simple BUT providers could not operate illegally and with way to many kids if one thing didn't happen, if parents didn't use them there wouldn't be an issue.

So... I think if the provider is going to be charged so should the parents. They CHOSE the provider, it is their job to use their eyes, ears, smell, touch and whatever else they have to monitor where there child is being cared for. Once they use a provider who is clearly breaking the rules, they have been put on notice that it may not be a safe place for their child.

We see it all the time in the news, in our towns etc illegal providers with way to many kids, following unsafe practices, etc and tragedy happens. Why are parents keeping to use these providers except for price? And a tragedy that happens because you didn't want to pay for safety is negligent.

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I read this entire thing, makes ones head spin. Lot of things going on here imo and I don't think anyone will be doing any time. It will either be dismissed or they'll find the prosecutor is way out of bounds on this one. For one, doesn't matter about her not being licensed, but taking the kids to a pool was poor judgement especially if they couldn't swim. Why didn't the life guards not see the child struggling? Or the provider or helpers?? The parent allowed a child that couldn't swim to go on this field trip???? How about not traveling with such young kids, and not having that liability.

Lot's of problems here but in the end it's a accident, and I think that is what the ruling will be. Last week a licensed facility left a kid in NY behind, and he ended up sleeping on a park bench and thankfully was found. Trying to charge all these people sounds like politics and more going on imo.

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Many people in the community feel the city attorney is going overboard and that it was a terrible accident. I question why numerous adults and two lifeguards (they have two lifeguards on chairs and 3-4 that are on duty but not directly supervising the pool) did not see the child, but I have also heard that some kids don't struggle and can very quickly, and silently drown. The lifeguards pulled her from the water, but a close family friend of my MIL was there and is a nurse and she is the one who performed CPR, reviving the girl, who was then flown to the hospital, but was never able to breathe without support after that. As for the provider, another person I know through FB questioned how this provider was unlicensed, as she accepted childcare assistant, but in our state, you only have to be registered or a self declared provider to get CCA, so I am wondering if part of why the social services person was arrested is because they were falsely claiming those benefits. Even if she was registered or self declared, she could only have a max of 7 full time kids, so maybe she and the county officer were in cahoots and claiming assistance for way more kids than she would have been legally allowed to take? Not even sure if that is possible, but it makes me wonder.

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And again, this is pure word of mouth, but many are saying that the family is pushing very hard for charges to be pressed and even though the attorney says the family is not invovled int eh suit against the city, others feel they are pushing for it and if there are monetary damages, the family will be compensated. Again, I have no idea if that is true, but if it is, I feel it is unfair, as I think the family (mother specifically) is responsible for this situation as well. She said she never gave permission for the trip to the pool, but the girl had swim wear and according to others at the daycare, they went to the pool often and everyone knew it. There are two main daycares in the town and this is one of them. I don't understand how on of the largest daycares int he town could be unlicensed. I just don't get any of it, but I will be so pissed if this leads to the pool being shut down.

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I have mixed opinions on it. Where I am the vast majority of providers are unlicensed. Even if you are unlicensed the most you can have in your care is 5 children. There was an incident a few years ago where two providers had a pool play date with 10 kids and one of them drowned. There was nothing illegal about the situation but a child still drowned. They have since changed the rules and providers are no longer able to get together for play dates.

Drowning is the leading cause of death of children. It happens. However when it is a daycare all hell breaks loose and everyone involved gets charged. I know a woman who was at the cottage with her 2 year old and there were 5 adults present and he still fell in the water and nearly drowned!! Would they have charged her or the adults around with the death if he had died??

When a child dies everyone wants someone to pay for it. It is unfortunate that this lady had too many children in her care and she should be charged for that and shut down but can we honestly say that this was the reason for the child's death? Not sure. If other drownings are any indication I would say "NO". Even children in the care of their own parents drown.

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I agree. I get that cost is a huge factor in childcare but I checked the licensing history of every family childcare and center that provided care for my kids. I checked references for babysitters. I was a struggling college student at one point but they are my babies. I wanted them safe and well cared for while I was at school. It is a parent's responsibility to vet the person they are considering leaving their little ones with.

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I had read an article a while back that said as a society we have come so far with safety that it has removed us from death - meaning we just don't see people die (they do so in hospitals, etc) and kids don't even attend funerals, etc. So when kids die in accidents, we MUST find fault. We MUST hold someone accountable. Someone MUST pay. The thinking is that there is no such thing as a true accident and everything is 100% preventable.
And of course, when one Monday morning quarterbacks, that is true.
It's led to a litigious society where everyone is afraid to allow anything (but WE don't know nothing about that )

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A parent leaving a child in illegal unlicensed care, especially when way over ratio, is the same to me as a parent leaving their child with a 7 year old. The parent knowingly let someone who is incapable of properly caring for their child take responsibility.

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Yes too bad she wasn't licensed, then surely that child wouldn't have drown.

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I don't believe that her being licensed would have prevented the child's death but it would have held her accountable to keep better ratios. 17 children for a privider is way too many to be looked after properly, especially if swimming.

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I think it was sarcastic.

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I understand you intended this as sarcasm, but to a certain extent you're post is accurate.

IF the provider was licensed, she would have had to maintain lower ratios.
IF the provider was licensed, those forced lower ratios would have led to better supervision.
IF this provider was licensed in my state, there are SO MANY hoops to jump through to go to any public pool that she may have opted not to go.

licensing, training, educating- providers and parents, does saves lives.

I am NOT saying you ALWAYS get bad care in an unlicensed home. But I would NEVER leave my child with someone who was knowingly operating an illegal business, was out of ratio for even a legally licensed home, OR took that number of children on field trips. Recipe for disaster.

I am 6:1, and I would NEVER take my kids swimming. EVER. NO WAY. They are 18 m-4 years. It would take ONE minute to lose one of them. That's not a risk I am willing to take.

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This is so so true! I once had a conversation with a guy who was in advertising and he said the best and fastest way to sell a product is to make it about the safety of children. He said that you could sell ice to a snowman in winter if he thought it would keep his child safe. He mentioned that carseats were the biggest sham. I have noticed this myself, whenever a child dies in a car crash they almost AWAYS blame the parents for not having it installed properly or not done up correctly or some such nonsense. The truth is that a carseat can only go so far to protect your child in an accident.

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My mothers cousin had 5 children. Her husband had died in a farming accident shortly after the youngest was born. She left them in the care of the eldest (around 16) when she went to work. One summer day, he decided to take the boat out of the dock and bring all of the kids fishing. It capsized and they ALL drowned. It was a horrific tragedy. Fully preventable. She wasn't charged with anything.

I do agree that accidents happen. THIS could have been prevented if she had followed state laws. There's a reason they're in place to begin with.

The separation from death in our society-That's part of the reason we have pets (they die- it's a tough lesson in life, but much easier to manage harder deaths when you understand it)- we bring our kids to wakes/funerals.

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Like smart monitor claims etc. If she was licensed, and had less kids that day probably still would have happened. Maybe the mom and dad should be arrested to for not teaching a 5 year old to swim. What about the life guards. Apparently mom did allow it since she was in swim wear, so mom's claim is apparently false. If they are suing you can bet it's to take advantage of a tragedy and win the lottery. So far the parents have gotten 37k from charity. This one of those accidents, and no one should be charged.

The provider needs to do what one did in our city years ago. She hired the best law firm, spent 10 mo in jail until it was over turned. The county prosecutor ended up losing his job, the state bar took away his ability to practice law due to being unethical, dishonest, you name it. The daycare provider then sued for 12 mil.

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WHAT? the parents suing=winning the lottery but the PROVIDER should sue?

I'm making crystal meth. My lab blows up and kills a child in my care. I should spend my time in jail, then sue the state?

What she was doing was ILLEGAL. There is NO WAY she wasn't aware of that fact. When someone dies while in the commission of a crime, it only increases sentencing. She has NO LEG to stand on. she was criminally negligent, at best.

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Absolutely - Parents, people take advantage of accidents to enrich themselves. Nothing new there.

Being unlicensed doesn't merit those kinds of charges. If you want to assign blame it goes back to the parents, provider, and life guards from the little I have read. Sounds like abuse of power, so something her attorney will look into and for a judge to decide.

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Just a bit more info I found on this situation today. I am watching the child of one of the families who went to this daycare. She said it is the largest daycare in the town and has about 30 kids. The little kids were not taken to the pool, just those that are school age and I guess they go quite often in the summer. The provider had a helper there too, so I am still not sure how many kids total, but it sounds like they were within ratio. The part that is still missing is whether she was licensed or not and how on earth she could operate a center and not be licensed boggles my mind, but probably answers why the city official is also under arrest (looked the other way maybe?). This daycare is actually very close to me. My grandma sold the original owner the land next door so she could expand her outdoor play area. The original owner was also my mom's assistant before she opened her dayacre (my mom had the first big center in town). It is sad all around, but another thing that sucks is there are 30 families who have no childcare now and there are no other options in the town. If I wanted to open a big center, now would be a good time

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See, we don't know that. The only thing that stands out is that she may not have been licensed. She had (allegedly) 17 kids with her, but she also had an assistant. Now in our state I can have 5 or 6 FT, depending on ages and 2 SA kids, plus my own SA kids who don't count in my ratio. I only have two SA KIDS of my own, but if I had 3 or 4 kids and they were all SA, plus all the DC kids, I could have 12-13 by myself and I would still be within legal ratios. If I was a group family we could have almost 20 kids out between 2 of us and still be legal.
So I'm not necessarily bothered by the number, though I would never take a group to a pool at all.
The problem with drowning is that it's a silent death, and unless one has been trained, it's actually very hard to spot (there was a video in Facebook where they asked people to "spot" the drowning person and most people got it wrong ) This could have very well happened to a licenesed provider - a busy pool, lots of other(non day care) kids, etc. What I'm wondering is what their policy was when they went to the pool for head counts, breaks, etc.

Frankly I'm flabbergasted that a CENTER, with a large public profile (at least according to the OP) operated without a license. I have no idea how that would even be possible. I can see how an illegal in home could hide it for years, but a large CENTER? There has to be more to that - someone dropped the ball *if* she was truly not licensed. I'm almost wondering if she thought she was licensed because I find it hard to believe someone would be that public and open whilst operating that illegally, KWIM? But I suppose stranger things have happened.

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According to Velva Community Development Corp. they state on their page that The Kids Quarters is licensed. That's supposedly the one she owned.

That's about all I could find. Definitely more to the story I'm sure, but thanks for the updates. Sure would like to know more on why the other lady was arrested, very sketchy.

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I saw that too, but they are charging her with negligent homicide, neglect of a child, and operating without license. I do not get how one of the main centers in town could not be licensed, unless she didn't take proper steps to renew it? The city official is charged with giving false information to police, being a public servant refusing to perform their duty, tampering and conspiring to tamper with public records.

If the daycare was licensed and within ratio and had permission to go to the pool, which also had lifeguards, can they really charge the provider and continue a wrongful death suit against the city? I mean, whose fault is it? Right now, they are blaming the provider, the city official, and the city itself? What's next? Are the 17 year old life guards also responsible? What about the parent who put their kid in the daycare? It is getting a little crazy, so i wish more facts were available so it may start to make sense.

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I'm wondering if this other lady was friends with her and they conspired to make her appear to be licensed. What other reason would this other lady have to tamper with those records? That was my impression from the news articles, though info. was sparse on all that. Keep us in the loop if you do find out more.

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This. As someone who had a family member go through very public legal issues a few years ago, I will say that a LOT of misinformation is put out by officials to make it seem as though the person they are targeting is 100% guilty. This way the person, rather than risk going to trial, takes a plea bargain. It makes the DA look good. And there are not as many trial lawyers as one would think - mostly they all want you to take the plea so the can get a fee and go home to their kids at a decent hour.

Threre was just an excellent article/study about how our legal system really isn't working because of the plea bargains, etc.

It's why I never believe anything until I can research ALL sides.

Obviously this will never be an okay situation - a child is dead. But if the provider was licensed, in ratio, actively supervising the kids, had all the i's dotted and t's crossed, etc then I hope she fights like hell.

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I spoke with someone yesterday and she is licensed and has been licensed for the last ten years she has owned it. She co owned it and bought it out fro the other owner awhile back.

This part is hearsay, but according to many, the family is out for somone get punished, but they say they are not pushing for the suit, which no one believes. Everyone in the town is keeping quiet, because the family is well known, but the provider and county social service woman are also well known and very loved in the community. A lot of parents at the daycare are very upset because they lost there daycare and they loved it there from what I have heard. They don't want the provider to take the fall, but again this is just what I have heard from a few of the families I know.

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imo it still wouldn't merit those kinds of charges, still a accident. The lifeguards didn't catch it either. If they find out she was't licensed that would probably be a misdemeanor.

You do have to research because there is so much bs reported. Recently a child died of SIDS just S. of me and it was in the paper. The reporter made sure to use the "illegal Daycare" card in his story online. I made sure to post that in our state you don't have to be licensed. He argued, even after going on their website because he didn't understand it.

I ended up giving him their phone number, and he did apologize. I also told him that wouldn't matter one bit in a case of SIDS. If one were unlicensed that is a completely different issue.

As for the court system you are correct, trials take a lot of time and inconveniences everyone involved.

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If she's licensed and was under ratio, then I can't see a reason for the neglect charges against the provider. Nor can I see any reason for which the parents bear any responsibility. I think there is something that we're not hearing.

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I think it's going to come down to what were she and her assistant doing while at the pool. Were they clearly supervising the kids and doing head counts every 15-20 minutes? Were the kids on a buddy system? Or were they sunning themselves while chatting, etc.

When I've taken my own kids to the lake we seem to go at the same time a school aged camp is there. The workers split - some usually stand at the edge of the lake clearly watching the kids, and others are with the non swimmers supervising them. Every so many minutes they have the kids come out and physically do a head count and have the kids verbally confirm who their "buddy" is. If this was a similar situation - I think they are going to have a hard time getting charges to stick.

Child death in care usually = lynch mob mentality.

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