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  #1  
Old 06-04-2013, 06:51 AM
CuriousInMN
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Default Excessive Timeouts

My spouse dropped our daughter off at her in-home daycare yesterday (Monday) morning, and was immediately told our little one would be in timeout all day because she refused to behave during her final 15-20 minutes last Friday, saying stuff like 'Im not listening to you.'

Our child sat 7am-3:30pm on the floor next to the couch the provider typically sits on. I'm unsure if she was given coloring books, but she would've been able to see the TV if & when that was on.

One may have a decent arguement that my child may not be very respectful towards the daycare provider, but my concern is how long can a daycare place a child in timeout.

I've heard some places don't do timeouts, but most of the ones that do seem to place children in timeout one minute for every year.

I tried to look online for Minnesota laws concerning this, but I found this site and thought I'd pose the question to you folks.

Thanks!
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:57 AM
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How old is your child? No matter the age, I think it's still excessive. But HOW excessive depends on the age.

There is no way a young child is going to connect the cause and effect of I misbehaved on Friday and so I'm in timeout Tuesday. And the entire day is ridiculous. For an older child I can imagine removing priviledges for a whole day, but not to just sit in one spot.
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  #3  
Old 06-04-2013, 06:58 AM
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I am in MN. A provider cannot place a child in time out or be separated from the group for more than 10 minutes.

I would NOT be comfortable with leaving my child with a provider who used discipline or behavioral strategies like that.

Not only is it developmentally inappropriate, but it is humiliating, shameful and illegal.

Here are the discipline rules for MN

9502.0395 BEHAVIOR GUIDANCE.

Subpart 1.
Methods.

Caregivers shall give each child guidance which helps the child acquire a positive self-concept, self-control, and teaches acceptable behavior.

A. The provider shall discuss methods of behavior guidance with parents at the time of admission and the parent's standards shall be considered by the provider within the context of this part when guiding the behavior of a child.


B. Behavior guidance used by caregivers must be constructive, positive, and suited to the age of the child. Methods of intervention, guidance, and redirection must be used.


Subp. 2.
Standards.

The following shall apply to all caregivers when guiding behavior in children.

A. No child shall be subject to corporal punishment or emotional abuse. "Corporal punishment" means the nonaccidental infliction of physical pain on a child by a caregiver. Corporal punishment includes, but is not limited to, rough handling, shoving, hair pulling, ear pulling, shaking, slapping, kicking, biting, pinching, hitting, and spanking. "Emotional abuse" means the infliction of verbal or psychological abuse on a child by a caregiver. Emotional abuse includes, but is not limited to, name calling, ostracism, shaming, derogatory remarks about the child or child's family, and threats which threaten, humiliate, or frighten the child.

B. Food, light, warmth, clothing, and medical care shall not be withheld from the child.

C. Discipline and punishment shall not be delegated to another child.

D. The separation of a child from a group to guide behavior must be appropriate to the age of the child and circumstances requiring the separation.

E. An infant shall not be separated from the group for disciplinary reasons.

F. A child shall not be separated from the group for a period longer than ten minutes.

G. A child separated from the group must be placed in an area or separate room that is well-lighted, free from hazards, ventilated, and open to the view of caregivers.

H. No child shall be placed in a locked room to separate the child from the group.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousInMN View Post
My spouse dropped our daughter off at her in-home daycare yesterday (Monday) morning, and was immediately told our little one would be in timeout all day because she refused to behave during her final 15-20 minutes last Friday, saying stuff like 'Im not listening to you.'

Our child sat 7am-3:30pm on the floor next to the couch the provider typically sits on. I'm unsure if she was given coloring books, but she would've been able to see the TV if & when that was on.

One may have a decent arguement that my child may not be very respectful towards the daycare provider, but my concern is how long can a daycare place a child in timeout.

I've heard some places don't do timeouts, but most of the ones that do seem to place children in timeout one minute for every year.

I tried to look online for Minnesota laws concerning this, but I found this site and thought I'd pose the question to you folks.

Thanks!
Just a few questions:::

How do you know your child sat in time out all day?? Did the child tell you?? Did the provider tell you??

I agree the provider shouldn't punish after the fact and certainly shouldn't be stupid enough to say that to a child, or a parent.

But do you KNOW for a fact the provider sat your child there all day??

I use time outs, not as a first resort. And I use them correctly.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:03 AM
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this is outrageous! I would remove my child from care and report the place immediately. I dont care how old your child is, putting them in one spot all day is unacceptable by any states standards.

I personally do not use timeouts at all but there are places that allow for a short, age appropriate timeout, nothing at all like sitting in one place all day.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousInMN View Post
My spouse dropped our daughter off at her in-home daycare yesterday (Monday) morning, and was immediately told our little one would be in timeout all day because she refused to behave during her final 15-20 minutes last Friday, saying stuff like 'Im not listening to you.'

Our child sat 7am-3:30pm on the floor next to the couch the provider typically sits on. I'm unsure if she was given coloring books, but she would've been able to see the TV if & when that was on.

One may have a decent arguement that my child may not be very respectful towards the daycare provider, but my concern is how long can a daycare place a child in timeout.

I've heard some places don't do timeouts, but most of the ones that do seem to place children in timeout one minute for every year.

I tried to look online for Minnesota laws concerning this, but I found this site and thought I'd pose the question to you folks.

Thanks!
1. Why did your spouse leave your child there after hearing this?

2. HOW does a daycare provider find the TIME to have a "usual" place to sit on the couch? There are days that the only sitting I get to do is the 45 seconds I spend in the bathroom.

3. One minute per year is a good guideline-sometimes longer for an older child for something serious.

4. To punish a child for something that happened LAST WEEK? Stupid.

I'd have a serious talk with this provider, if you REALLY want to stay there, but I'd more likely just find a new one. I can't tell you if Minnesota has a rule about time-outs, you can call the Department of Social Services and ask for their child care licensing department for information about that.
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  #7  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
9502.0395 BEHAVIOR GUIDANCE.

F. A child shall not be separated from the group for a period longer than ten minutes.
Thanks!

My daughter is 4.
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  #8  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousInMN View Post
Thanks!

My daughter is 4.
Please report this.

Also, please do NOT leave your daughter with a provider who is open about disciplining that way. Makes you wonder what things she does and doesn't tell you...

If you need contact info for your licensing agency to report, let me know and I can give you the contact information.

Good luck
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  #9  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:10 AM
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"A child shall not be separated from the group for a period longer than ten minutes."

While she remained in the same room, she was off to the side and unable to play with the other children. This does constitute the group seperation, yes?
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  #10  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousInMN View Post
"A child shall not be separated from the group for a period longer than ten minutes."

While she remained in the same room, she was off to the side and unable to play with the other children. This does constitute the group seperation, yes?
Yes. Separation from the group, means not being able to join in the group or play with the group.

She did not follow the guidelines for disciplining your child.


I also think "D. The separation of a child from a group to guide behavior must be appropriate to the age of the child and circumstances requiring the separation." applies.

Separating her for a day long time out is NOT appropriate for her age and doing so 3 days later is also NOT appropriate according to the situation that warranted the punishment.

The provider cannot shame or humiliate her either. So I think that strategy was not acceptable for several reasons.

She was disrespectful. She didn't physically harm someone.
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  #11  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:15 AM
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There is no way the next day or after a weekend the child is going to remember why they got a timeout. I do a minute for each year of age. Never more. That is not right. I'd start looking for another daycare.
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  #12  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
If you need contact info for your licensing agency to report, let me know and I can give you the contact information.
If you have it I'd happily take it!
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  #13  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:18 AM
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If you have it I'd happily take it!
I'm curious as to how you know that the provider actually left your child in timeout for that length of time??
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  #14  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
If you have it I'd happily take it!
Human Services and Public Health
Child Care Licensing

Phone: 612-348-3883

Location:

Child Care Licensing

300 South 12th St MC 630

Minneapolis, MN 55404-1004


Hope that helps
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons View Post
I'm curious as to how you know that the provider actually left your child in timeout for that length of time??
This is a quote from the first post of the OP.

"My spouse dropped our daughter off at her in-home daycare yesterday (Monday) morning, and was immediately told our little one would be in timeout all day because she refused to behave during her final 15-20 minutes last Friday, saying stuff like 'Im not listening to you.' "

The provider herself told the OP. Or her husband. I would absolutely pull my child from her care. That is outrageous. I don't care what the child did, you don't make them sit in time out the entire day. Pull her and report.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
1. Why did your spouse leave your child there after hearing this?2. HOW does a daycare provider find the TIME to have a "usual" place to sit on the couch? There are days that the only sitting I get to do is the 45 seconds I spend in the bathroom.

3. One minute per year is a good guideline-sometimes longer for an older child for something serious.

4. To punish a child for something that happened LAST WEEK? Stupid.

I'd have a serious talk with this provider, if you REALLY want to stay there, but I'd more likely just find a new one. I can't tell you if Minnesota has a rule about time-outs, you can call the Department of Social Services and ask for their child care licensing department for information about that.
^^^Bolded above! If I heard a provider say that when I was dropping my child off I would not leave my child. What was your DH's response?
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  #17  
Old 06-04-2013, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo View Post
This is a quote from the first post of the OP.

"My spouse dropped our daughter off at her in-home daycare yesterday (Monday) morning, and was immediately told our little one would be in timeout all day because she refused to behave during her final 15-20 minutes last Friday, saying stuff like 'Im not listening to you.' "

The provider herself told the OP. Or her husband. I would absolutely pull my child from her care. That is outrageous. I don't care what the child did, you don't make them sit in time out the entire day. Pull her and report.
The provider SAID aka... THREATENED ... And that was wrong ... And yes I'd pull my kid, however that does not mean e provider actually DID IT.

Threatening is one thing (again, the wrong thing) but DOING is another.

I read where it said the provider SAID that..but...did she DO it??
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:32 AM
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Simply enough, whether the provider followed through with the day long time-out or not, you have been made uncomfortable with this provider. Remove your child immediately and find new arrangements. If there is someone to report to, then report her.
Where I am we are privately run and unless something crazy happened and a parent wanted to report to the ministry (as in extreme neglect or abuse of some sort, or being way over in numbers) there would be no one to report the "threat of a day long time-out".
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons View Post
The provider SAID aka... THREATENED ... And that was wrong ... And yes I'd pull my kid, however that does not mean e provider actually DID IT.

Threatening is one thing (again, the wrong thing) but DOING is another.

I read where it said the provider SAID that..but...did she DO it??
even if it was threatened, I would still remove my child immediately. threatening may not be against regulations but that would be enough for me to not trust the provider, how they handle discipline.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:36 AM
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even if it was threatened, I would still remove my child immediately. threatening may not be against regulations but that would be enough for me to not trust the provider, how they handle discipline.
I agree, as I did in my previous two posts. While I agree that I'd remove my kids lickety split, I'd react differently depending on whether or not the provider had actually DONE that, compared to just saying that.
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Old 06-04-2013, 07:36 AM
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even if it was threatened, I would still remove my child immediately. threatening may not be against regulations but that would be enough for me to not trust the provider, how they handle discipline.
Totally agree. I don't know how it was threatened. She said that she WAS going to be in time out all day. Not, she might be. Either way doesn't matter to me. My child wouldn't be there another day.
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  #22  
Old 06-04-2013, 08:06 AM
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Thanks for all the assistance!

I've got my eyes peeled for a new provider and hope to find a great new place!!
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:52 AM
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Just make sure you do surprise visits and ask your child what she did during the day and who came to visit the new daycare...such as other adults

Also kids have a hard time with time,events, etc. I have a little 4 year old that told his mom that I made him sit on the toilet "all day".... it was like 3 minutes
His mom laughed because he was having bowel problems and she puts him on for 20 minutes or more.

But just be aware that kids get events, times, and even locations confused.
I have a 4 year old that comes in and a couple times a week she says it's her birthday "Yesterday" and she went to Chuck E Cheese.. I asked mom and she said she hadn't been to Chuck E cheese in 4 months.

Good luck with your new Daycare..hope it works out
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Michelle View Post
Just make sure you do surprise visits and ask your child what she did during the day and who came to visit the new daycare...such as other adults

Also kids have a hard time with time,events, etc. I have a little 4 year old that told his mom that I made him sit on the toilet "all day".... it was like 3 minutes
His mom laughed because he was having bowel problems and she puts him on for 20 minutes or more.

But just be aware that kids get events, times, and even locations confused.
I have a 4 year old that comes in and a couple times a week she says it's her birthday "Yesterday" and she went to Chuck E Cheese.. I asked mom and she said she hadn't been to Chuck E cheese in 4 months.

Good luck with your new Daycare..hope it works out
Good points...I always talk to parents about this too. I tell them I take what their kids say happens at home with a grain of salt, and I ask for the same in return .
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:42 AM
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ok, the child was seperated from the group. How many times do we tell each other that if a child is naughty with the group they need to be seperated. I'm wondering if the provider just worded it wrong. Also, we don't know what really happened because I'm sorry I find it odd that a provider would say this. Also, I'm wondering if the child is acually a bit of a trouble maker and the provider has told the parents multiple times and nothing was done and now they are taking it out on the provider.

if the parents were so concerned then why did you leave your child there. Why didn't you ever do drop in's.
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Old 06-04-2013, 09:55 AM
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I feel horrible that someone would do this to a child. But why did your husband leave her knowing she'd be in a time out all day? If it's because of a lack of any other option for child care, please go to this website and find other care options. You can call this agency, too. http://www.childcareawaremn.org/fami...ind-child-care

Read back and see that the person saying the child would be in a time out "all day" was the provider, not the 4-year-old.

I'm in MN, by the way.

I would not take my child back to that daycare provider for one minute. You should also consider filing a complaint. What she's doing is not permitted, and if the child was really forced to be in a time-out all day, I believe it borders on child abuse.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:11 AM
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Good points...I always talk to parents about this too. I tell them I take what their kids say happens at home with a grain of salt, and I ask for the same in return .

Very very true. I had a parent say that her son said something about his day that was in a negative way and she asked me about it. I laughed and said, well, he also said that your husband holds him upside down, puts his head in the toilet and flushes. She never said anything else since then hahaha!! He was 3 at the time.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:14 AM
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I agree, as I did in my previous two posts. While I agree that I'd remove my kids lickety split, I'd react differently depending on whether or not the provider had actually DONE that, compared to just saying that.
Not me. If you say it and you are serious about it, even if you dont end up doing it, I would still term immediately. If you are a daycare provider and you are seriously considering putting a child in one spot, not allowing them to move all day, I would absolutely question your judgement, patience and child care skills and knowledge of child development. I am shocked by this post. Very glad to hear the parent is looking for new care.
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Old 06-04-2013, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by countrymom View Post
ok, the child was seperated from the group. How many times do we tell each other that if a child is naughty with the group they need to be seperated. I'm wondering if the provider just worded it wrong. Also, we don't know what really happened because I'm sorry I find it odd that a provider would say this. Also, I'm wondering if the child is acually a bit of a trouble maker and the provider has told the parents multiple times and nothing was done and now they are taking it out on the provider.

if the parents were so concerned then why did you leave your child there. Why didn't you ever do drop in's.
we can only go by what the parent said in this post. My replies are assuming that the parent has repeated the incident fully and honestly.
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Old 06-04-2013, 11:42 AM
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we can only go by what the parent said in this post. My replies are assuming that the parent has repeated the incident fully and honestly.
this is so true..
I think it is more work to keep a child sitting in one spot all day.
Where did she eat? If I were a "disrespectful" 4 year old, I would probably spill my food or act up worse if I had to stay in one spot all day.
This just doesn't sound right.
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  #31  
Old 06-04-2013, 12:10 PM
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Totally agree. I don't know how it was threatened. She said that she WAS going to be in time out all day. Not, she might be. Either way doesn't matter to me. My child wouldn't be there another day.
I totally agree. Whether it happened or not, just saying it is too much.
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Old 06-05-2013, 05:32 PM
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I had a similar situation happen when I worked at one center where my assistant teacher was trying to put a 4 year old in time out for 2 HOURS! It was 3:30 and his Mother picked up at 5:30 and she told him she was leaving him to sit until his Mom came. I told her 100% NO and she still tried it. I had to take the child inside the building (we were outside playing) with me to remove him from the situation, and I called the director at home and reported it. In our state you cannot isolate a child for more than a certain amount of minutes. I am thinking it is 8.

Anyway, yes, report this! That is not okay.
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Old 06-06-2013, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by countrymom View Post
ok, the child was seperated from the group. How many times do we tell each other that if a child is naughty with the group they need to be seperated. I'm wondering if the provider just worded it wrong. Also, we don't know what really happened because I'm sorry I find it odd that a provider would say this. Also, I'm wondering if the child is acually a bit of a trouble maker and the provider has told the parents multiple times and nothing was done and now they are taking it out on the provider.

if the parents were so concerned then why did you leave your child there. Why didn't you ever do drop in's.
My first thought was that perhaps DCK was really the provider's shadow (as I've seen advised here many times) and the provider worded it incorrectly.

If she did put the child in time out all day long that is grossly inappropriate and needs to be reported.

In response to the PP asking about the "usual spot" on the couch... And this is a serious question, not snarky.... but is it really wrong for us to have a place to sit? I have a special chair in my daycare room that is mine and mine only... is it bad or make me a bad provider? Athough I don't sit there all day the OP never said their provider does either. I really didn't think it was a bad thing. This is my career. I plan on retiring as a daycare owner. In 40 years when I retire, I'd like to have saved my back enough to enjoy retirement!

Didn't mean to hijack...

Last edited by craftymissbeth; 06-06-2013 at 07:52 AM. Reason: Spelling
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