This little girl, 9 months, is an absolute doll. Very cute, but I am being reminded every day why I don't like enrolling this age.
(this is only the start of week 2).

-Screams BLOODY FRIGGIN' murder every nap. It took almost an hour to get her down for nap this morning, then I woke her after 30 minutes because it was time to go outside. I was already stretching it, too, because there is a window there for outside time before the next round of meal/diapers/nap

-Wakes up screamin BLOODY FRIGGIN' murder

-This afternoon, slept an hour. That's all...then...you guessed it, BFM!

Of course, I also can't walk away, can't put her in a playpen, etc.

Hey cry is like the loudest newborn cry ever. High pitched and really, really loud...wah wah wah....

She's also such a well....baby.... I mean, she's 2 months younger than my next older one, but seems much younger. Can't drink from a cup, barely wants to hold her bottle, can't feed herself (well, she's learning), throws everything off the table onto the floor, etc. I don't blame her and I'm not mad. It's just noticeable that she hasn't grown up here.

No real problem, just kind of venting...

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The 6 mo dcb I have cries like that too. Well, screams. Like a fresh little newborn. My guess is because he's rarely allowed to cry at home so his real cry never developed Actually, the more I let him cry the more it's just turning into an I'm dying scream.


It's tough listening to the crying.

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my dcg is 8 months, doesn't crawl, hold a bottle, or attempt to feed herself. She screams when you are out of her sight. We've played peek a boo a lot today. I'm thinking it will get better once she realizes shes fine. I don't believe they let her cry or ever put her down.

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I so feel your pain!
Leaving the room to go to the bathroom shouldn't bring on this much noise .........

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I had an infant. Once. He was 6months and unable to do anything himself not to mention refused to be on his own for any length of time and mom was so over bearing and had to come every day to see him which added to the problem. She pulled after a week though because she couldn't handle being back at work

I will never take under 18 months again. Maybe 2 years. I will stick to preschool age that can feed them selves and entertain themselves for a minute so I can go to the restroom

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I FEEL YOUR PAIN!
And thanks to your good advice, I was able to get my Lil guy adjusted, finally.

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Apparently, I need to take my own advice. But when she's in there crying her little tuckis off, I actually feel BAD for her...

Like I said, she's pretty darn sweet. Petite little copper top and so cute.

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This is why I prefer the older ones .... but you have them for longer than I do!

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If I could, I'd enroll them all at 4 weeks...no, 2 weeks...no 2 days!

Or...a sweet 3 year old like I just got as a temp. She'll be 4 next week, has been here a total of 8 days, and I'd adopt her in a heartbeat. She is the best! Of course, most of the reason she is so sweet is because she has a mom and a GMA who LOVE her to pieces, spend time with her, and have expectations of behavior.

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This is why I only take one child under 12 months. Because a lot of babies are going to cry from like 6 months till whenever they start walking. Sure some of them are better than others as far as personality and independence but the vast majority of the age, especially if you don't have them as newborns, are going to cry a lot during this time frame. By 12 months, I have most of them on a great routine and cooperative with group care but before that, depending on how sensitive or stubborn they are, expect a lot of crying. I do one baby at a time so I have the room to nap them separately so we all dont have to hear screaming all day. It is my personal belief that children should be home with mom till toddler age which is I know is weird since I offer daycare services but it is just more rare than not that a baby is going to happily transition from home to home, caregiver to caregiver.

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If I stuck to that, I wouldn't have any kiddos. Over 2's way more profitable here, so they all go to the convenient, easy-to-get-to centers in town.

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I had a 9m old (now 13m) that I got that exact way. She is now a complete gem. It took a LOT of work on my part.

I got a 12m old (now 16m) that way too - and he hasn't improved. I may not re-enroll him for the fall as it looks now. 4 months is too much and now we are hitting/kicking/biting on top of the screaming/crying/whining.

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yeah that is tough, when the demand is only there for infant care. It just means that you are stuck with babies and toddlers all the time and that takes a toll on any person.

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I think they scream cause it works at home. You just have to teach them it doesn't work in DC. I had one DCB 7 mths & a DCG 11 mth scream the same way. I would walk in once to lay him/her back down with no eye contact, tell them they were fine & leave the room. Day 2 I took a littler longer to lay them down before I did it as well as day 3, but I said nothing. Always with no eye contact. I never went in on day 4, 5 or anymore. It only took about week for him/her to learn it doesn't work here.

As a side note, DCG parents used the same technique at home & she doesn't scream anymore there. As for the DCB, he still does at home, cuz it works for him. He will be 2 in July & doesn't scream in DC though.

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They scream because the can't communicate any other way. This thread makes me angry and sad. I absolutely understand not wanting to work with babies and the needs of a carer being different from a parent, but some of you are using "self-soothing" as a way to ignore the infants needs.

I don't feel like arguing with anyone here, because I know that your minds won't be changed, but I still feel like it needs to be said.

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Who is?

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What exactly is a 6 month old supposed to do for himself????

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Anyone who believes that it's okay to leave a baby screaming in a bed. Anyone who believes that a child that age can be "spoiled". Anyone who suggests that a baby has been fed and diapered and is therefore crying for "no reason".

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NM it's not worth it.

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I'm not here to argue either and I don't want to elaborate on my opinion, I just wanted to say that I agree with you Queen. If anyone is curious to know why they can dig through some previous threads about CIO.

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There is a lot of terminology floating around here and as I've told you before, I understand what it means. You've already provided me with links explaining why, and I still disagree. I don't believe a child under 6 months should be expected to soothe themselves.

Be careful. That's the way that you do it, not the way that everyone does it. There are plenty of Americans who see it the same way I do.

I certainly didn't mean it as a compliment. And I think what you've described is neglect, which is why I chose to say something. I'm familiar with all different kinds of child raising methods, there are at least 10 different nationalities in the center where I work. But some of the comments I've seen on this site just set my teeth on edge.

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And that's totally fine for you to disagree with it.

This thread is about a 9 month old.

And like I said, there are many different ways of child rearing. My way is not "the right way" and neither is yours. The problem is, you've said that my way is neglectful. Tell any childcare provider they're neglectful and you're going to get an earful.

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Eh, I can handle it.

What I'm saying is that leaving an infant to cry is not child rearing, it's child ignoring. I've said my piece and you responded so I think we can leave it at that.

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Anyway... Heidi, how's she doing?

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You've made several comments on this board about your feelings as far as self-soothing and babies being left to cry.

Rather than comment on how neglectful the providers here are, please explain the method in which you would integrate a high needs infant into care while caring for multiple other children by yourself please.

FWIW, I am NOT trying to be rude or insulting, I am genuinely asking because I've noticed too that you have taken several opportunities to tell others how wrong they are but have yet to educate others about your beliefs/methods.

Condemning isn't the same as educating. One is useful, the other is hurtful.

Oh, and I am not rearing or raising anyone's child. I am NOT their parent. I provide care for them while their parents are away.

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Ok.......
Even though we all have our own opinions, the amount of knowledge being shared here shows a full understanding and deep level of care that goes into the babies and children we all care for.
Nit picking on a few choice words to insinuate a child is being neglected, is totally not necessary.

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Hey, if you want to take it there, alright.

First of all, and infant that cries isn't "high needs". If an infant really is high needs due to health reasons, they should probably be in a home/private care one-on-one situation.

If we're talking about about normal children, I think it would be a mistake to have more than one infant per adult for the very reason that they NEED extra attention.

Yeah, that's not really true. I've expressed a lot of different ideas.

Do you really want me to try to educate anyone here? I don't expect to change anyone's mind, I just didn't want the place to be an echo chamber. If you are sincerely interested, I can tell you how I would do it, or how I've seen it done.

Have that argument with Beth, I was quoting her. But for the record, I agree with her on that.

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I AM genuinely interested.

I am not talking about medical needs...I am talking about the infants that ARE fed, changed and otherwise fine but cry just because they aren't being held.

Those are the infants I think most of the providers are venting about...

How do YOU manage that?

But that is the thing...there are HUNDREDS of normal infants that were simply trained to be happy ONLY when held. Sometimes a provider HAS to help them learn that they do NOT need to be held.

If a 9 month old screams bloody murder because she isn't being held but ALL her needs are being met, what then? Just continue holding her?
What about the other kids?

Also, licensing allows more than one infant per adult and in order to remain successful financially many providers fill out their ratios and DO have more than one infant in care.

I KNOW what MY personal beliefs are in regards to infants in child care (I believe NO infant under 12 months should be in care) but that's MY opinion not the licensor's or the parent's...kwim?

I didn't say that is the ONLY opinion you've expressed. I said you've taken several opportunities....

Yes. I do. I have learned A TON of things from this board that I would never have had the opportunity to know/learn had the poster not felt so adamant about their beliefs...kwim?

Otherwise what is the point of all of us sharing opinions, methods and comments? I was under the impression that the point of networking with others is so that we can learn new ideas, perspectives and ways of doing things.

So yes, if you feel strongly about something educate those that may not understand or agree about why.

That's how I personally learn things.

Oops, my bad.. I thought you were implying that child care providers are rearing kids... I KNOW I am not.

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If this is true, Great! However, no one is willing or able to pay me to care for their child one-on-one. The going rate here is $140 per week (and some are much less). I cannot afford to work 50 hours per week for $140.





First...

Then....

I have been caring for children for 24 years. I have raised countless happy, healthy, well-adjusted children. The ones I get early on never need to "CIO", because they are gently taught to sleep on their own from day 1.

My frustration was because this child has not learned that at all. The previous "babysitter" put her in a swing to sleep. A moving swing for a 9 month old child who can stand up. That, in my opinion, is way more dangerous than letting her fuss. Now, I must undo 7 months or so of misguided sleep training.

Let me also add that it is FAR better to come here and express frustration than attempt to bottle it up. THAT is why so much here sometimes seems negative. Because this is the one place that there are others who understand just how hard our jobs can be. We are isolated, for the most part, with multiple children, and work long hours. Most of our husbands don't get it. They think we sit around eating chocolates all day, many times. So, we are not a bunch of mean, negative people. It's just HERE is where we can share the negatives.

As for little lady:

Will there be tears? Absolutely!

Will she eventually get it? Probably!

Am I being as gentle as I can be under the circumstances? Yep!

Do I think that crying intermittently will harm her permanently? Nope!

I'm not running a Romanian orphanage here. I have 4 children, not 40. There is lots of love here. Hugs, reading stories, sitting on my lap looking with books, eating a meal together, talking through diaper and clothing changes, taking walks, singing songs, encouraging independent play.

I also come more from the "ripping the bandaide off all at once" school then the "gently pull it off" school, but in the end, the bandaide must come off. Still, I am working with a 9 month old, not a 6 year old, and I'm well aware of the developmental differences.

I'm not angry at all. I know it's hard to really see what's going on here when you're in Deutschland, not my neighbor. You only see my words. Not my demeanor or inflections.

If, in Germany you can financially make a living while caring for only one child, I think that's wonderful! But, it's not realistic here. Not even sure how it makes sense. Because, if someone is paying you a "living wage" to take care of one child, why would the parent even work? He or she would be giving her daycare her entire paycheck.

And, if you do have any good ideas, I am always willing to try them. I wasn't necessarily looking for help on this one, but you can always say "hey, did you try this?" Usually, honestly, the advice is "wear her" on this subject. That is not an option with a 9 month old, so yeah, I would say no on that. Besides, she's very happy awake...it's only sleep that we're struggling with.

?

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Since you're genuinely interested...

If she's screaming her needs aren't met. Human contact is a need, just like food and diapers. She's lonely or sad and doesn't have anyway to express that or do anything about that except cry. Self-soothing isn't going to solve the problem that she feels lonely, it's going to repress it. I believe we owe it to them to be there for them when the feel that way. On the other hand, I am not an entertainer. I will not carry around a child that's just bored.

I actually would hold her. I work in a group of 15 kids and 3 adults (sometimes 2, but that's rare). We have one sofa and some chairs for us to sit with the kids when they're eating (we eat with them at the table). Otherwise, we're on the ground, with them. I'm a big fan of free play so a lot of times I just sit and observe and usually, there's someone in my lap. They come and go as they feel like it, bring books and toys. I think that us being down there with them gives them a sense of security which lets them go play some distance from us.

We usually don't start before 8 months, but I would have no problem using a sling before that.

I know, we're allowed 5 by our state, but the European Union suggest that under the age of 18mo, it should be 3 per adult. I know that home care is different and I totally understand it. You do the best job you can.

Heh, we can agree on that then.




The job that I do here in Germany is called "Erzieher" which is literally "child raiser". We don't bother too much with letters and flashcards and stuff like that, we focus on social skills and independence. A good erzieher does nothing for the child that he can't do for himself, knows what that is, and will help him to learn how if he can't.

I'm really curious about your experiences too. I think it's funny that we have a lot of the same issues that you do with the parents.

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I was going to say that: I'm German, too, although I've lived here many years.

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I want to add something...sorry...as if my last post wasn't long enough.

When I said she "screams bloody friggin' murder", it's because that's just how she cries. I cannot describe it better than that. It's just her cry. Not because she's in great distress; it's just she only has 2 volumes. Whisper sweet, or BFM!

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Reaching out across "the pond" for us all to learn from each other is wonderful!
Freely throwing around the word neglect, will cause rough seas!

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Nope, it's not true. I have worked as a nanny for different families, but it's not really my thing. I'm already a mom, thanks. I was defining infant as under 10 months or so. I totally get what you're saying and my post was actually not referring to yours. It's this attitude like babies under 1 are brats because they're crying that really gets to me. It's just...unkind. Your post didn't have that feeling at all.


Agreed. I'm also a mom to 4 and they all slept in their own beds from the beginning.

Absolutely.

You know how some of these parents are. My first live-in nanny job I was told that I wasn't expected to get up with the baby at night. Guess where his bedroom was. Guess where hers was. They'll do anything to get away from their kids.

Hey, I thought so! Oh, now I want to know everything about you!! How long have you been there? Are you "ausgebildet" here?

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Certainly a screaming child is communicating a need. Sometimes, though, that need is to be held all.day.long. because that is what the parents have trained the child to need. I currently care for a neglected child (foster child) who HATES to be held, because he was rarely held the first 4 months of his life. He cries when he IS held, because "normal" to him is to be sitting in a car seat 24/7. He was trained to be left alone.

It is much less about these care givers complaining about the children and much MORE about them complaining on this board about the parents who choose to put their child in group care, but train them to expect and NEED one-on-one care. It's because these people CARE about these children that they come onto this board to seek advice. They're not seeking for approval to neglect the children, but looking for a way to meet the needs of the specific child AND the rest of the group. I doubt there are many of us that wouldn't LOVE to dote on an infant all day, holding and rocking 8-10 hours a day, but we all know that it isn't realistic.

Self-soothing and cry-it-out are completely different things. I am not a proponent of CIO. I agree that children cry to have needs met, and I think that especially young infants should not be left to cry for prolonged periods. A provider trying to teach an infant to self-soothe is trying to help the child feel secure by training the child to feel safe and secure. I believe that we should never do for a child what a child can do for themselves. I think that self-soothing babies are confident, well-adjusted, and happier babies, and that parents and other caregivers should try to promote this skill.

I could go on all day, but I find it very unfair to label these caregivers as neglectful-they're TRYING to meet the child's needs, but finding these needs too demanding. High-need children sometimes really are just trained to be that way.

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How are parents supposed to know what group care is like unless we tell them?

In my opinion, a child will feel safe and secure when they know that their needs will be met by their caretakers.

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IMHO, it IS the parent's job to do their research.

I had NO idea what anything child care related was or wasn't until I put in the time to research what I needed to know.

However, with that being said... I DO think it is a good thing to educate parents. BUT only if the parents WANT to be educated...kiwm?

Often times, you have parents that do whatever is easiest for them (hold all evening, give in to crying/tantrums etc) because it "fixes" the issue for THEM while on THEIR clock but does NOTHING for the time the child is in care.

Not parents care about what's best for their child but care MORE about what works for them. Children now days seem to spend a majority of their awake hours in the care of the provider.

That whole cycle then leaves a provider who cares for multiple children to "make do" or sometimes have to allow a child to cry.

I agree...but if the parent doesn't prepare the soil properly NOTHING will grow no matter how much love, time and/or effort I put into it.



Also, on this same subject... if a child is crying to be held (their NEED for socialization or human contact) when does that NEED become a WANT and at what point are parents OR providers suppose to start teaching that child the difference?

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A child who CAN self-soothe is a child who DOES trust that their needs will be met, IMO. Soothing would not be possible without that trust.

I have been absolutely BLESSED with great parents at my childcare. Others have not been so lucky. I have had two families that have not been wonderful to work with.

One had a 9 month old that literally screamed and cried 95% of the day. Their child had been diagnosed with a dairy allergy, and they were feeding her milk based formula. Because they made the choice not to follow their physician's advice, and because they refused to try to help their daughter, I kicked them out. These parents told me to put her on the floor and let her scream (they said this is how they dealt with her at home). I did report them for medical neglect, nothing came of it.

The second family was abusing their children. I reported them five times, and nothing came of that, either (even after a SERIOUS assault that the child substantiated and left a puncture wound on the child). They were termed, as well.

I hear from many providers, however, about children who can't sleep without being held or worn or in a swing. THOSE parents are NOT helping their children. Parents who don't work to encourage independence in the children are NOT helping their children. It is entirely possible to still be close to your child, meet their needs, hold them, rock them to sleep, etc., and still work to teach them that they don't NEED mom to be holding them 24/7 at exactly a 37 degree angle while bouncing up and down on one foot and turning counterclockwise.

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I just want to add to what Leigh mentioned about sleep. My regs say a all infants must sleep in a PNP or crib. If I have to rock a child to sleep or they won't stay asleep if not being rocked, fed, etc. then I have an issue. It is extremely unrealistic to expect me to go in, pick them back up rock them again until they're asleep, then place them back in their bed. Just to do it again over, and over, and over just because they've been trained to depend on an outside source to be able to sleep.

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I am also not suppose to allow an infant to sleep ANYWHERE other than a PNP or crib. (Without blankets even)

I can't even allow them to be in a sling, wrap or carrier if they are sleeping.

SEVERELY limits my options for a child that knows nothing different

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Hang on...., I need to get some popcorn.

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Thought I'd put on my helmet and throw my 2 cents in:

1) "Self-soothe" and "cry-it-out" are the same thing. Self-soothe is just a nicer way of saying CIO. I'm not sure how, but somehow someone decided to call it "self-soothe" to make it sound more palatable.

2) Infants do not have the ability to self-soothe! That is why they come with grown-ups to care for them! Learning to regulate ones emotions is a life-long learning experience - a six month old cannot reason, plan, discriminate, etc. They need countless positive, loving experiences to trust and know that we (the grown-ups) will make sure they are fed, diapered, clean, cozy, loved, cuddled, stimulated, kept and physically and emotionally safe. Laying a crying baby in a crib to fend for themselves does not promote these positive feelings.

3) Yes, teaching a baby to sleep on their own is hard work, especially if they "swing sleep" or are driven around in the car at home. However, it can be done without letting a child cry.

4) I never understood why some caregivers are so adamant that they won't rock a child to sleep. I care for six children (infants, toddlers, and preschoolers) and I usually rock at least the youngest one to sleep. I've done this for years and all of them are great sleepers. I will rock them until well past the time they are able to sleep on their own. The one 2yo I have now finally decided to stop rocking at 18 months telling me, "My bed Wee-ANNA!"

5) Baby wearing is a real option! Why do people dismiss it so summarily? It is not uncomfortable and you can wear kids well into toddlerhood! You can hold a baby and still have hands! I love it! It works! (Not just for me either, but for women all over the world )

6) Can/should we add "BFM" to the list of daycare acronyms?

Ok...helmet is secured...ready for the rocks...

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Absolutely no rocks from my direction

Now, when I refer to self soothing, I do not mean I place them in the bed and let them cry. The way I do it is to give them a little time... 5-10 minutes to see if they can work it out on their own. Sometimes they find their hand and suck on it and that's what makes them feel better. Sometimes they settle into a little whine (for lack of a better word). Or they may just keep crying and at that time I'll pat or rub their back, shhhhhing to help them calm down. If that doesn't work, Ill pick them up for a few moments to calm them down and then place them back in their bed.

I do have a 6 mo now, though, whose cry turns into an infuriated scream if I try to rub his back or comfort him. His parents give him a bottle in order to get him to sleep. His dad dropped him off today and said he gave him a bottle, he finished it but still wouldn't sleep so he gave him a bottle full of water to get him to sleep. See how that's an issue? This child will ONLY sleep if he has a bottle in his mouth the entire time. When he wakes up 10 minutes later, he screams because he can't get back to sleep without another bottle.

To add: my version of self soothing is to just give them the opportunity to learn to do it themselves. I don't feel like I'm doing them any favors by jumping in and "solving" the problem right away. If they don't figure it out this time that's fine... I'll help now and try again next time. If that makes sense

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I understand we all have different ideas and opinions on this topic, and that is fine. We will never all agree on a topic, perfectly understandable, and actually educational to hear another's view point.
What I'm not ok with is someone who doesn't even care for infants throw the first stone and remark at another's care, using the methods of self soothing or cio, as "neglect".
I work with neglected children! Self soothing and cio is a far cry, (excuse the pun), from "neglect".

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Seriously, if that works for you, great! I am not being sarcastic. It would not work for me, and I don't believe, myself, that it's best for children to be "carried around like a sack of potatoes".

It is semantics...CIO, self-soothing. Each person is going to see it a little differently. I don't like CIO as a term, because it brings to mind the Romanian/Russian orphanage thing where children are left in their beds most hours and a caregiver has 40 infants to "tend".

With a younger infant, sometimes I believe they do need to cry. Sometimes they have excess energy to burn off, and because they can't really move around yet they do it through crying. To me, that infant needs to be comforted, but not necessarily be made to stop crying. A touch, a song, talking softly, reassuring; these are all ways I can offer support and still encourage independence. I also give them the message that their bed is a lovely place to cuddle and sleep. I actually say that to my babies "oh, look, here's your lovely bed. Aren't you lucky that you can snuggle down and get all cozy? Now you'll have a nice sleep!"

With an older infant, especially one who's been taught they need to sleep in a swing or rocked or carried about, we sometimes need to be a little harder. I STILL comfort and support. I sing the same song EVERY NAP TIME. I prepare her, her friends wave night-night, she goes in the same bed, I rub her back briefly, and I walk out.

If she cries to long (BFM), I go in after 9-10 minutes, lay her down, whisper night night, and leave. Rinse and repeat. I am still supporting her; she knows I care, she knows I'm here.

BUT....I know what's best for her; she doesn't. It's best for her to sleep safely in a bed and sleep long so that she can be rested and ready to play.

That's how I see it. It doesn't matter of you don't. It's okay! You do it your way and I'll do it mine, and all these kiddos will be just fine.

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I will PM you.

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Everything I've ever read about training or teaching a child to become independent says to GRADUALLY delay the response time so that the child NEVER feels abandoned but slowly weans themselves from the need for instant "adult".



Also, I asked before but at WHAT point/age does the NEED become a WANT?

You can't just move from NEED to WANT cold turkey so what is the process you use to make the change?

I wonder who the provider is that just puts a baby in a crib to fend for themselves and walks away?

@Leanna... you said "I never understood why some caregivers are so adamant that they won't rock a child to sleep. I care for six children (infants, toddlers, and preschoolers) and I usually rock at least the youngest one to sleep"

So what are the other children that are needing to be rocked to sleep doing while you rock the youngest?

Also, baby wearing IS an option for SOME providers. NOT all.

But it cannot be the ONLY solution. I will NOT wear a baby and certainly not a toddler. So a parent or child that requires or wants a provider that will wear a baby has an obligation then to find a provider that will do this...there are many.

At SOME point in this discussion/debate, some level of responsibility MUST be placed on the parents. Parents have an obligation to find a provider that will be consistent with the care they give at home as well as one that is willing to work WITH them or shares the same beliefs.

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Found this interesting....

http://ocw.usu.edu/Family__Consumer_...sy_Babies.html

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I have given birth to four children, have been a nanny to many infants, and work regularly with children under 12 months. Otherwise known as infants. If all of this was not the case, I'm still a childcare professional and am fully capable of forming an opinion.

I get it, you're offended by the word "neglect". Deal with it.

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Thank you for sharing that!

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Okay, that really isn't necessary.

I am also offended by someone implying others are neglecting kids.

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This is just a healthy, normal debate for us here. There is absolutely no reason to be rude or unkind. We have these debates/discussions here quite often and most of them really enjoy them for their educational value. Adding in comments about providers neglecting their dck's along with phrases like "deal with it" is just unnecessary.

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It's okay for them to want things, too. But I think each child is different. We just have to know. I'd probably start around 1.

Beth described a pretty good process up there.

I literally just read a ccp advising someone to do just that.

I obviously don't know what each states regulations are but we sleep on mats, all 15 kids in the same room with one adult. We also have these little wooden cradle type things for the smaller ones. We turn on soft classical music and rub backs, cuddle, etc. My co-worker even found that one of the babies liked to fall asleep with a little bean bag on his back. I guess the weight felt like a hand. I did it five days a week for five years. It works.

Agreed. But I also feel like it's our responsibility to let them know and kind of set them on the right path.

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I didn't imply anything. I outright said it and that's what I see. You can be offended.

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It's been a rough nap time again today!

She slept 45 minutes, which was just enough time for me to get the dishes put away, everyone else settled, and wipe down the floor, which is disgusting.

I know what the problem is; it's not sleep. It's confinement. She screams whenever she is placed in any type of confinement..the stroller, the cart, the outdoor baby zone, her pnp, her chair. She only stops when movement begins. Move the stroller, the cart, or the car (with her car seat in it), and she immediately stops crying. Food, now that she knows that chair= food, also distracts her enough to tolerate it. On that note, she's gone from being 100% fed by an adult to 100% self feeding in 2 weeks. She's almost mastered the cup, too, although I am still suplementing with bottles.

Not an option here. I cannot nap her on a mat (and she wouldn't stay at 9 months), and I cannot nap her in a swing. Regs say pnp or crib.

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But see, if you read my post up above about what I consider self-soothing, you'll see that what I do is NOT neglect. In no way shape or form am I neglecting my dck's. In this quote of yours you IMPLY that those who teach self soothing to their infants are neglecting them.

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Do you know where/how she naps at home? Sorry if I missed it above

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I wasn't trying to justify why I was offended and I certainly don't need your permission to be offended.

I KNOW I have a right to be offended.

However, simply telling another member to "deal with it." is rude and not at all conducive to a learning discussion.

You'll "educate" and persuade others of your point much faster/easier by being friendly and helpful rather than rude and condescending.

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I am curious for those that are in the rocking/wearing camp, though...

What do you do at night?

Lets say baby wakes up 3 or 4 times at night, and each time needs to be either rocked back to sleep, or walked around in a sling? I can see doing that for a few weeks, or even a couple month.

But, what about when they are 9 months old? Would you still give up possibly hours of sleep because that's what baby thinks she needs? Can a 9 month old even distinguish between wants and needs?

I know someone will say "that won't happen...they figure it out eventually", but I can tell you I had one dcg (who I termed after 4 days as an infant) that still nursed and needed videos put in at 3 in the morning...at the age of 2 1/2 (the family and I kept in contact). She'd wake her mother up, say "I want to nurse please", and then, when she was done, kindly ask dad to put her video in. Very polite child, I might add. They too, thought she'd eventually just start sleeping through the night just because she wanted to. It just didn't happen.

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I am told she sleeps in her own bed, after a short cry. They go in periodically to soothe a little, then leave. Mom actually used the words "CIO" in her write-up.

I don't know if I have the full story yet, though. Mom is so sweet, but she may be leaving out some info here.

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I have never in my life rocked a child to sleep at night. I get them just sleepy enough and put them in bed.

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What do you do if they cry when you lay them down? I have no problem rocking them until they're sleepy, but my problem comes when they cry when laid down or can ONLY sleep while constantly rocked.

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I am really not going to waste my time arguing about hurt feelings. We're adults here. It's just a tactic to distract from the original discussion. Which is why she felt she had to say it four times.

On that note, I'm leaving this discussion because it's devolved.

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Rub backs, sing, just be there. The first step of SS is making sure they're really tired, right? Which for most kids starting day care is easy because we wear them out.

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I know you're never going to read this since you've bowed out of this discussion, but yes we are adults here. Except you're not quite acting like one. Why is it your opinion that we're neglectful is valid, but the opinion that what you're saying is actually hurtful is met with "deal with it" and "I am really not going to waste my time arguing about hurt feelings"?

Others have disagreed on the self soothing, but you've been the only person who can't seem to say things nicely. I heard BabyCenter members are ok with that behavior, but for the most part we try to be kind to one another... even if we're disagreeing at the same time.

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Getting lost in the sea of posts but I think someone (Blackcat, I think) asked what I do when multiple children need to be rocked at naptime. Well, all of my kiddos (babies and "big kids") sleep in the same room. The pack and plays are always set-up and we lay out the cots for the 2's,3's, and 4's daily. We are allowed two children under the age of 2 and four children between 2-5. (NYS defines an infant in FCC as under two.) I personally enroll one "big baby" and one "little baby" at a time. The older kids lay down and I rock the baby to sleep. This usually takes between 5-10 minutes. If the other baby is still one that likes to get rocked I have him/her sit with or near us and sing or talk quietly to him/her until I lay the little baby down. Then, I rock the big baby. If any of the tots need rocked they are next but usually they like to be more independent by the time they are 2. The whole process doesn't take very long at all. It really works well for me and my babes and kiddos - that is one of the main reasons I try to get other people to try it lol. I can see though that if you cared for more than two or three infants by yourself you might have to have a different system.

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Leanna...that sounds very cozy and sweet!

See...honestly, I started the thread because I was concerned about this little 9 month old, not SS or CIO or rocking/not rocking. As I said, I like to get them when they're really young, because then I don't have any habits to break. It's a non-issue then. It is much, much, easier on all of us here if they are comfy and content falling asleep in their beds at a young age.

This little girl doesn't want to be rocked; she wants to sleep in a swing. She's 9 months old; and can stand up. It's SO much harder for her because of this.

It's not fair at all, but I can't give her what she wants, so she will have to learn to accept what I can give her. I don't love it, either, but it is what it is.

I know she'll be okay. She's made huge strides already. She comes to me for comfort, and I can make her laugh, she smiles when I sing to her.

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Hmm, thank you for that Leanna. I can see how that would work if you have the routine down and the kids on a system. Makes sense.

Funny how each state defines infant. Here infant is under 12 months. Toddler is 12-24 months and 2-5 is preschool.

I don't take many infants (only ones from currently enrolled families) so this isn't really an issue for me but I love learning different methods and ways other providers do things. Helps me continuously be a specimen of education.

I've cared for over 200 children in my career and I've never ever had two kids that were the same so keeping my bag of tricks FULL is always a good thing.

Even if I have never done something in a certain manner before, I like to have the "option" in case it ever becomes useful.

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How has the discussion devolved???? I am one who agrees with your stance on cry-it-out, but it seems to me like you were ok with a debate until someone called you out for your choice of words/tone/etc. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Also, please don't bow out of the discussion just because it is getting a little hot. We really are all here to learn from one another.

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Uh, that's what I do!

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ahh...but that's not how it usually works!

DCM of baby I had years ago, they'd rock him to sleep, then sneak him off to bed. If he awoke on the way, they'd start all over.

Guess what happened when this little guy woke up in a BED in the middle of the night? From his perspective, he fell asleep cuddled, warm, being rocked back-and-forth. Next thing he knows, he's in a strange place, it's dark, there'r some creepy animal like things swinging around over his head, and this funky light shining through the window, making them look enormous. I'd freak out, too!


Your version of rocking sounds more like a ritual; a routine. That's what I do, too. We have our meal, we read a story, we sing a certain song (even the 11 mo knows it now), and then we wave night-night to all our friends and go off to our beds. I save her for last, I give her an extra cuddle and repeat the song, and then I lay her down. I rub her back for a moment, but she's already starting when I am lowering her to the bed, honestly.

I could try to rock her a bit, but I highly doubt that it would change anything. The second she is aware of those bed walls, she's PO'd.

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I think coming to you for comfort is a huge step!

And I totally agree that it can be very difficult to teach a child to sleep when they are used to motion sleeping (swing, car, etc.).

Also, if everyone could go back and read Heidi's original post. It is helpful to sometimes remember what was actually said by the person saying it lol. Heidi says the little girl is cute as a button but cries & cries during naps. She didn't say she hates the baby and she leaves it to cry in a dark room all day.

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Yep, that's pretty much what we do. It works.

I'm not out of discussion on how to put them to bed. Still here for that.

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Wow! A comment to this would not even necessary at this point. Your colors are clear!
But that's not my style.....
Your the one who brought the word neglect into this.
If your going to get offended for people reacting to that, then educate yourself on the word before you use it.
Ignorance is bliss!

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thank you!

and to add, I wouldn't have even posted if I didn't feel bad for her having to learn this skill. It's hard on both of us...even though I am trying to help her as much as I can. I just don't have a lot of tools to use. Rocking her to sleep, at this point, would not help her, because it's not what she wants.

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I honestly think the problem might be the bed issue. What's nice about mats is that I can touch them and be close to them without holding them. And for whoever said the 9 month old wouldn't stay on a mat (Heidi), we have these:

http://www.communityplaythings.de/pr.../sleeping/g961

It's unfortunate that you have to use P&P.

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I think Leanna did a fantastic job of explaining her methods and how she did things. It helped me...now I have a perspective I didn't have before.

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I'm quoting myself here, because THIS is the problem, from what I've narrowed it down to.

We have the same problem playing outside. I have an area just for her, but she is miserable there because it has 3 walls (I left one end open). Even when I sit in there WITH her, she screams. The rest of the yard is wood chips and acorns; choking hazards. She screams if she's in the stroller; unless it's moving. So, while 3 children play happily, she is miserable.

ay yay yay!

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I think it is important to mention her too that you don't have co-workers.

You are a one woman show.

Changes things up as when your options are limited because you are the only one in the room over 3 ft tall.

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We are not allowed to hold a sleeping infant (under 12 months) or carry them in any device or place them in any device or keep them in any device except a pack 'n' play or crib, bare, no bumper, no blanket, no toy, no lovey. They may have a pacifier that is not attached to them by any device.

From birth, infants are learning to separate from their parents and to begin to meet their own needs rather than having their needs met. It is a slow process, but that is what is happening. They are fed, they learn to hold a bottle (in care), they are spoon-fed, they learn to finger-feed and then use utensils. They are soothed by us, they learn to self-soothe and eventually to regulate their own behavior.

Each habit that their parents/caregivers develop is just that - a habit, a way of doing things. It is what that infant is accustomed to. It is the way in which they have made sense of their world, the way that that individual baby's world works. So, each parent/caregiver is training them into certain expectations.

To me what is being discussed here, is the mismatch that sometimes occurs between the parental training and the provider training of an infant.
From my own perspective, this seems to be on the upswing in recent years, partly because of the extreme change in recent years in the expectation of what a proper sleep environment looks like in the child care setting.

For me, what it's come to is this: I feel lucky now when a family wants to interview with me before birth, because I have the opportunity to let them know what the expectations are here, and why. I have handouts and websites so that they can prepare themselves before the baby is born and they actually have the time and energy to read all about it Very little information about this seems to be given to parents by their doctor or hospital. Most parents are surprised. And then they want to be sure to set their sleep situation up safely, both for home, and to do the best preparation possible to make a smooth transition to child care.

And all I have to add besides that is: I have had two infants in care many, many times. Most of them remain friends that understand each other deeply, to this day, even when they are very different in interests or personality.
We call them our "childcare twins" but obviously we know they are not. And if children were truly meant to be cared for only one-parent-to-one-infant, parents of actual twins would be in big trouble

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I would love to be able to use floor beds. I'm not sold on the safety, but I love the concept and they just look beautiful and inviting.

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That site I linked to is pretty interesting. It's a religious group similar to the Amish and they make all that stuff themselves. There's an English version too. Check out these cots:

http://www.communityplaythings.com/products/sleep-and-hygiene/listing/cots?guid={B01F6F89-9B25-45B9-B1E7-ABCB672BCAC7}

I think they would be so nice for the older kids. You know how they like to have something special for being big.

What safety aspect are you concerned about?

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My nephew passed away from SIDS so I'm extra specific about how I sleep infants. For me, the safest place is a crib or PNP. But I do still love the idea of floor beds for infants.

I think my toddlers would love them though. I'll have to take a look through that link.
Eta: I have seen those on that site and I love them. I'd love to switch to cots like that eventually. Right now I use nap mats.

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I'm very sorry.

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I talked to them just today about a table! I love Community Playthings!

They don't have those beds in the US version of their catalog. Presumably because most states don't allow them here. I am going to enjoy browsing the german version.

Have you called them? If so, do they speak German with you? Both my reps had "German" names...Brigitte, and now Heidi. I wonder, but didn't notice an accent.

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We met a group of them at a trade fair here, so they spoke fluent German. I *think* they were American though, if I remember correctly.

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