Daycare.com Forum
Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Destructive Child
Pestle 10:07 AM 08-08-2016
I have three full-time kids and can't currently afford to lose any of them--I've only been in operation for 2.5 months and don't have enough of a network to fill the spaces.
Two are siblings. The younger is two and a half years old. I've had him for going on two months now.
No speech, parents aren't potty training, they give him a bottle at his nap each day. I'm having luck potty training him here and teaching him to use a cup. He makes eye contact, smiles, hugs, and will occasionally respond to commands. I have made soft sounds while standing behind him and he's repeated them, so if he has a hearing problem, it's not a major one. However, he only vocalizes when he shrieks, moans, or roars (basically all the time). There's never any babble or attempts at words--except that he says "Thank you."
He cannot hold a crayon or pencil; he grabs the coloring sheets and twists them up and tears them up. Everything he gets his hands on will be: 1. Mouthed, 2. Shaken as hard as possible, and 3. Thrown across the room. He has broken a LOT of my toys. He sleeps in a bed a home, but here I have to put him in a crib because he runs across the other kids during nap time. When in the crib, he shakes it as hard as he can while laughing. (I'm working on training him not to do that, but it's typical behavior for him.)
He ignores circle time and will sometimes join in ring-around-the-rosie, but that's the extent of his cooperative play. He has never joined in play with another child; however, he runs up to them and attacks them while wrenching their toys away. (Yes, I'm working on discipline.)
He bites the other kids, and tears their hair out. They are all afraid of him. When I take him aside, he smiles, stops making eye contact, and turns his head to ignore me. I can press my face right up against his and he will still pretend I'm not there.
All this to say--do you think this is just a late developer with parents who are too hands-off, or would you ask his parents to have him tested? Currently, I can't term due to lack of alternate income.
Two are siblings. The younger is two and a half years old. I've had him for going on two months now.
No speech, parents aren't potty training, they give him a bottle at his nap each day. I'm having luck potty training him here and teaching him to use a cup. He makes eye contact, smiles, hugs, and will occasionally respond to commands. I have made soft sounds while standing behind him and he's repeated them, so if he has a hearing problem, it's not a major one. However, he only vocalizes when he shrieks, moans, or roars (basically all the time). There's never any babble or attempts at words--except that he says "Thank you."
He cannot hold a crayon or pencil; he grabs the coloring sheets and twists them up and tears them up. Everything he gets his hands on will be: 1. Mouthed, 2. Shaken as hard as possible, and 3. Thrown across the room. He has broken a LOT of my toys. He sleeps in a bed a home, but here I have to put him in a crib because he runs across the other kids during nap time. When in the crib, he shakes it as hard as he can while laughing. (I'm working on training him not to do that, but it's typical behavior for him.)
He ignores circle time and will sometimes join in ring-around-the-rosie, but that's the extent of his cooperative play. He has never joined in play with another child; however, he runs up to them and attacks them while wrenching their toys away. (Yes, I'm working on discipline.)
He bites the other kids, and tears their hair out. They are all afraid of him. When I take him aside, he smiles, stops making eye contact, and turns his head to ignore me. I can press my face right up against his and he will still pretend I'm not there.
All this to say--do you think this is just a late developer with parents who are too hands-off, or would you ask his parents to have him tested? Currently, I can't term due to lack of alternate income.
EntropyControlSpecialist 10:13 AM 08-08-2016
I would compile your list of observations and address the concerns with the parents. I'd also have a list of what children are typically doing at this age.
They definitely need to have him evaluated by a speech language pathologist. That is very likely the reason he is biting. He can't communicate at all and that's not typical for his age.
As for the biting and tearing hair out...if I were the third child's parent, who isn't related, I would exit your daycare program.
I understand that you can't afford to lose income but I would be actively trying to find a replacement. Most parents won't stick around for long if their child is being harmed.
I would also implement a behavior plan. After x amount of times of biting then he will be suspended for x number of days. Then there needs to be a consequence after he comes back if he still continues.
They definitely need to have him evaluated by a speech language pathologist. That is very likely the reason he is biting. He can't communicate at all and that's not typical for his age.
As for the biting and tearing hair out...if I were the third child's parent, who isn't related, I would exit your daycare program.
I understand that you can't afford to lose income but I would be actively trying to find a replacement. Most parents won't stick around for long if their child is being harmed. I would also implement a behavior plan. After x amount of times of biting then he will be suspended for x number of days. Then there needs to be a consequence after he comes back if he still continues.
MarinaVanessa 10:21 AM 08-08-2016
I know you said that you can't afford to let anyone go and it's a financial concern that he is a sibling of another daycare kid of yours so of course if you let this child go then you'll most likely lose his sibling. But, can you afford to keep him?
What if this child continues to destroy your belongings? Can you afford to continuously buy new replacements? Have you done the math yet to compare the income you are receiving to the amount of damages you are incurring?
What about him hurting the others? At some point the other parents will get fed up with their own child getting hurt and you'll lose the "good" child. What are they saying at pick up when you explain that the child was physical/tore out hair of their own child? Are you letting them know? What if the child hurts someone seriously? Can you afford to pay for medical costs or an ambulance ride? Typically the parent will pay for the cost of medical expenses if their own child gets hurt from normal play but a provider can be held accountable if they are negligent and it seems like this has been going on for a couple of months so there is a risk that if a child gets seriously hurt from this child you could be held liable for negligence because you knew of the issue that wasn't getting better.
Are the parents involved in a plan of action to improve his behavior? Have you seen improvement? Do you suspect it's just behavior? Or do you suspect developmental concerns?
This child seems like a huge liability risk to me.
What if this child continues to destroy your belongings? Can you afford to continuously buy new replacements? Have you done the math yet to compare the income you are receiving to the amount of damages you are incurring?
What about him hurting the others? At some point the other parents will get fed up with their own child getting hurt and you'll lose the "good" child. What are they saying at pick up when you explain that the child was physical/tore out hair of their own child? Are you letting them know? What if the child hurts someone seriously? Can you afford to pay for medical costs or an ambulance ride? Typically the parent will pay for the cost of medical expenses if their own child gets hurt from normal play but a provider can be held accountable if they are negligent and it seems like this has been going on for a couple of months so there is a risk that if a child gets seriously hurt from this child you could be held liable for negligence because you knew of the issue that wasn't getting better.
Are the parents involved in a plan of action to improve his behavior? Have you seen improvement? Do you suspect it's just behavior? Or do you suspect developmental concerns?
This child seems like a huge liability risk to me.
childcaremom 10:22 AM 08-08-2016
I couldn't do that every day.I would be advertising to replace both spots asap. September is just around the corner and (in my corner of the world) busy time. I would be wondering if I could cut back on expenses for a few months and term immediately.
I won't keep a child who is destructive and rough despite my attempts to curb behaviours. That is way too much liability for me to take on.
I would consider approaching mom and dad, having a sit down and putting this child on probation. That xy and z behaviours need to be resolved by x date or you will no longer be able to provide care. They may pull, though.
In the meantime:
Give him toys that he can't break: soft toys, baby toys, etc. He needs to be separated from the other children if he is that rough. I would have him be my shadow at all times. Separate play area and separate napping area. He is a danger to himself and a danger to others. Not ever alone with other children.
Biting? Pulling hair out? You may lose the other child/family.
KiwiKids 10:31 AM 08-08-2016
I would voice your concerns to his parents. Aggression can be tied to verbal delay and that's understandable but not something that can be tolerated. Your other daycare child needs a safe and calm environment and even the most understanding parents get frustrated after awhile.
Luke25 10:35 AM 08-08-2016
Sounds like a combination of lots of things to me.
Lack of parent discipline, developmentally behind, and frustrate because he can't communicate well.
I would absolutely separate him from the other kids as much a possible. I had 2 biters at the same time (ugh
)
Unless I was in arms reach of them they were in pack and plays. I had two set up in my play room. They eventually stopped for the most part.
At 2.5 he should be able to understand and take corrections a little better and should be communicating a lot more than that.
I would bring up all concerns to the parents and let them know he can't continue if the behaviors continue.
Honesty I feel home daycare isn't the best for children with major behavior issues. Ideally a child like that would need 1:1 all the time to prevent destructive/ aggressive behavior and it's just not possible since there is only one of you.
Sorry you're going through this.... I know how stressful it is!!
I have a hard group too. It's so exhausting.
Lack of parent discipline, developmentally behind, and frustrate because he can't communicate well.
I would absolutely separate him from the other kids as much a possible. I had 2 biters at the same time (ugh
) Unless I was in arms reach of them they were in pack and plays. I had two set up in my play room. They eventually stopped for the most part.
At 2.5 he should be able to understand and take corrections a little better and should be communicating a lot more than that.
I would bring up all concerns to the parents and let them know he can't continue if the behaviors continue.
Honesty I feel home daycare isn't the best for children with major behavior issues. Ideally a child like that would need 1:1 all the time to prevent destructive/ aggressive behavior and it's just not possible since there is only one of you.
Sorry you're going through this.... I know how stressful it is!!
I have a hard group too. It's so exhausting.
Pestle 10:37 AM 08-08-2016
Thank you all for confirming that this is straight-up ridiculous!
My third child is a newborn, so fortunately he's not in danger--I keep him separate from the siblings at all times. My daughter is spending all of her time in her bedroom to avoid this boy, so it's been kids who are only here every once in a while--and the older sibling--who bear the brunt of the aggression.
But you're so right; I can't expose the other kids to this.
Agreed, I need to be advertising to fill all the spaces. It's tricky, since I don't want more than one non-walker at a time and I already have that space filled. I think I need to fill the fourth space ASAP, then land another child and term the siblings--putting myself back down to three until I get another fourth child. If that makes sense.
My third child is a newborn, so fortunately he's not in danger--I keep him separate from the siblings at all times. My daughter is spending all of her time in her bedroom to avoid this boy, so it's been kids who are only here every once in a while--and the older sibling--who bear the brunt of the aggression.
But you're so right; I can't expose the other kids to this.
Agreed, I need to be advertising to fill all the spaces. It's tricky, since I don't want more than one non-walker at a time and I already have that space filled. I think I need to fill the fourth space ASAP, then land another child and term the siblings--putting myself back down to three until I get another fourth child. If that makes sense.
EntropyControlSpecialist 10:45 AM 08-08-2016
Originally Posted by Pestle:
Thank you all for confirming that this is straight-up ridiculous!
My third child is a newborn, so fortunately he's not in danger--I keep him separate from the siblings at all times. My daughter is spending all of her time in her bedroom to avoid this boy, so it's been kids who are only here every once in a while--and the older sibling--who bear the brunt of the aggression.
But you're so right; I can't expose the other kids to this.
Agreed, I need to be advertising to fill all the spaces. It's tricky, since I don't want more than one non-walker at a time and I already have that space filled. I think I need to fill the fourth space ASAP, then land another child and term the siblings--putting myself back down to three until I get another fourth child. If that makes sense.
What does your contract/parent handbook say about you terminating care? What does it say about THEM terminating care? If it's only a 2 week notice then I would begin advertising and let those who attend the interview know (if it's a sibling set) that you won't have a spot available for 2 weeks. Most families are able to wait that as they have to give their current place a 2 week notice.Thank you all for confirming that this is straight-up ridiculous!
My third child is a newborn, so fortunately he's not in danger--I keep him separate from the siblings at all times. My daughter is spending all of her time in her bedroom to avoid this boy, so it's been kids who are only here every once in a while--and the older sibling--who bear the brunt of the aggression.
But you're so right; I can't expose the other kids to this.
Agreed, I need to be advertising to fill all the spaces. It's tricky, since I don't want more than one non-walker at a time and I already have that space filled. I think I need to fill the fourth space ASAP, then land another child and term the siblings--putting myself back down to three until I get another fourth child. If that makes sense.
MarinaVanessa 11:04 AM 08-08-2016
What does your contract say about termination on your part? If you have a clause where you can terminate at will without any notice then you can continue to advertise for 2 spots and once you get that second child signed up you can terminate your current client immediately if your newer client needed the spot right away.
It's REALLY harsh to do that and I wouldn't normally advise immediate termination without notice if it weren't for the fact that the child was hurting others.
Maybe a happy medium would be to talk to the parents about the behavior, keep daily logs, suggest to the parents that they speak to their pediatrician about your observations AS WELL AS request an evaluation for speech (the evaluator will suggest further evaluations if developmental delays are observed), shadowing the child, removing hard toys etc as others have already suggested and putting a plan of action in place for improvement.
Keep track of incidents to see if there's a pattern, possible triggers, specific time of day (before nap: maybe he's tired, before meals: maybe he's hungry, ) etc that's causing him to become upset.
In the mean time you can easily print out some simple sign language cards (or buy some) and teach him the basics like eat, sleep, help, drink, milk, water, juice, play, apple, banana etc (things in his normal routine).
http://www.babysignlanguage.com/flash-cards/
You can also make a communication board or make communication cards for him to point to in order to tell you what he needs/wants. Typically these are for children with autism but I used these with my own son who had delayed speech and no other developmental challenges. Here's an example of a "board"
http://alongcamethebird.blogspot.com...ld-school.html
You can still advertise for this child's spot and if you get interest in the spot and don't see improvement from this child then replace the family, if the parents seem hands-on and on board with resolving the issues and you see improvement before you fill his spot then you can keep him.
It's REALLY harsh to do that and I wouldn't normally advise immediate termination without notice if it weren't for the fact that the child was hurting others.
Maybe a happy medium would be to talk to the parents about the behavior, keep daily logs, suggest to the parents that they speak to their pediatrician about your observations AS WELL AS request an evaluation for speech (the evaluator will suggest further evaluations if developmental delays are observed), shadowing the child, removing hard toys etc as others have already suggested and putting a plan of action in place for improvement.
Keep track of incidents to see if there's a pattern, possible triggers, specific time of day (before nap: maybe he's tired, before meals: maybe he's hungry, ) etc that's causing him to become upset.
In the mean time you can easily print out some simple sign language cards (or buy some) and teach him the basics like eat, sleep, help, drink, milk, water, juice, play, apple, banana etc (things in his normal routine).
http://www.babysignlanguage.com/flash-cards/
You can also make a communication board or make communication cards for him to point to in order to tell you what he needs/wants. Typically these are for children with autism but I used these with my own son who had delayed speech and no other developmental challenges. Here's an example of a "board"
http://alongcamethebird.blogspot.com...ld-school.html
You can still advertise for this child's spot and if you get interest in the spot and don't see improvement from this child then replace the family, if the parents seem hands-on and on board with resolving the issues and you see improvement before you fill his spot then you can keep him.
Sunchimes 11:35 AM 08-08-2016
I was going to suggest teaching him some simple signs, eat, water, milk, stop, play, yes, no. Maybe make it something you teach everyone do he isn't singled out. Tell the parents about ECI, insurance pays or the eval is free. Payment is income based and very inexpensive. I don't think any of my dc families have ever paid more than $10 a month, max. When he turns 3, ECI will help figure out the next step. In the meantime, you have learned some vital skills for your Difficult child toolbox.
sahm1225 12:42 PM 08-08-2016
Originally Posted by Pestle:
Thank you all for confirming that this is straight-up ridiculous!
My third child is a newborn, so fortunately he's not in danger--I keep him separate from the siblings at all times. My daughter is spending all of her time in her bedroom to avoid this boy, so it's been kids who are only here every once in a while--and the older sibling--who bear the brunt of the aggression.
But you're so right; I can't expose the other kids to this.
Agreed, I need to be advertising to fill all the spaces. It's tricky, since I don't want more than one non-walker at a time and I already have that space filled. I think I need to fill the fourth space ASAP, then land another child and term the siblings--putting myself back down to three until I get another fourth child. If that makes sense.
Honestly, I would cut back everywhere else and just term now. As of right now, you don't have a reputation built since you are new right? Think of the word of mouth you will be getting if the dcb keeps biting and hurting the kids that just come once in a while. THEN add the fact that your dd is spending time in her room because the dcb is in daycare. It's not fair to you or your daughter.Thank you all for confirming that this is straight-up ridiculous!
My third child is a newborn, so fortunately he's not in danger--I keep him separate from the siblings at all times. My daughter is spending all of her time in her bedroom to avoid this boy, so it's been kids who are only here every once in a while--and the older sibling--who bear the brunt of the aggression.
But you're so right; I can't expose the other kids to this.
Agreed, I need to be advertising to fill all the spaces. It's tricky, since I don't want more than one non-walker at a time and I already have that space filled. I think I need to fill the fourth space ASAP, then land another child and term the siblings--putting myself back down to three until I get another fourth child. If that makes sense.
Mike 03:24 PM 08-08-2016
For the safety of yourself and others, you need to have changes made very soon or term. I would give the parents 2 weeks notice to term with the option of cancelling that if there is a noticeable improvement within 1 week. If they really want to leave their kids with you, they will work on changes, including having that child looked at and tested.
LysesKids 06:13 PM 08-08-2016
Originally Posted by Pestle:
I have three full-time kids and can't currently afford to lose any of them--I've only been in operation for 2.5 months and don't have enough of a network to fill the spaces.
Two are siblings. The younger is two and a half years old. I've had him for going on two months now.
No speech, parents aren't potty training, they give him a bottle at his nap each day. I'm having luck potty training him here and teaching him to use a cup. He makes eye contact, smiles, hugs, and will occasionally respond to commands. I have made soft sounds while standing behind him and he's repeated them, so if he has a hearing problem, it's not a major one. However, he only vocalizes when he shrieks, moans, or roars (basically all the time). There's never any babble or attempts at words--except that he says "Thank you."
He cannot hold a crayon or pencil; he grabs the coloring sheets and twists them up and tears them up. Everything he gets his hands on will be: 1. Mouthed, 2. Shaken as hard as possible, and 3. Thrown across the room. He has broken a LOT of my toys. He sleeps in a bed a home, but here I have to put him in a crib because he runs across the other kids during nap time. When in the crib, he shakes it as hard as he can while laughing. (I'm working on training him not to do that, but it's typical behavior for him.)
He ignores circle time and will sometimes join in ring-around-the-rosie, but that's the extent of his cooperative play. He has never joined in play with another child; however, he runs up to them and attacks them while wrenching their toys away. (Yes, I'm working on discipline.)
He bites the other kids, and tears their hair out. They are all afraid of him. When I take him aside, he smiles, stops making eye contact, and turns his head to ignore me. I can press my face right up against his and he will still pretend I'm not there.
All this to say--do you think this is just a late developer with parents who are too hands-off, or would you ask his parents to have him tested? Currently, I can't term due to lack of alternate income.
When I was a newbie many years ago, I tried hard to build a reputation, but it was shot down by a child similar to yours... I didn't have enough support back then to know when to cut my losses and it killed my business quickly (I was licensed at the time)... IMO, it's time to term if you want to keep the rest of the clients. I have three full-time kids and can't currently afford to lose any of them--I've only been in operation for 2.5 months and don't have enough of a network to fill the spaces.
Two are siblings. The younger is two and a half years old. I've had him for going on two months now.
No speech, parents aren't potty training, they give him a bottle at his nap each day. I'm having luck potty training him here and teaching him to use a cup. He makes eye contact, smiles, hugs, and will occasionally respond to commands. I have made soft sounds while standing behind him and he's repeated them, so if he has a hearing problem, it's not a major one. However, he only vocalizes when he shrieks, moans, or roars (basically all the time). There's never any babble or attempts at words--except that he says "Thank you."
He cannot hold a crayon or pencil; he grabs the coloring sheets and twists them up and tears them up. Everything he gets his hands on will be: 1. Mouthed, 2. Shaken as hard as possible, and 3. Thrown across the room. He has broken a LOT of my toys. He sleeps in a bed a home, but here I have to put him in a crib because he runs across the other kids during nap time. When in the crib, he shakes it as hard as he can while laughing. (I'm working on training him not to do that, but it's typical behavior for him.)
He ignores circle time and will sometimes join in ring-around-the-rosie, but that's the extent of his cooperative play. He has never joined in play with another child; however, he runs up to them and attacks them while wrenching their toys away. (Yes, I'm working on discipline.)
He bites the other kids, and tears their hair out. They are all afraid of him. When I take him aside, he smiles, stops making eye contact, and turns his head to ignore me. I can press my face right up against his and he will still pretend I'm not there.
All this to say--do you think this is just a late developer with parents who are too hands-off, or would you ask his parents to have him tested? Currently, I can't term due to lack of alternate income.
BTW, when I took older kids (I do infants only now), I had a policy in place that made parents responsible for replacing or paying for toys or other items broken on purpose (damages to home or property was instant termination)... sorry but the destruction of toys alone would have gotten the kid booted before now if he was in my care, much less the other behavior.
I grew a backbone fairly quick so the same things didn't cause me issues when I did re-open. I was a single mom of 3 when I lost my business the first time... swore it wouldn't happen again & it hasn't... $$ isn't worth your rep or your child's mental health
EntropyControlSpecialist 05:42 AM 08-09-2016
Praying for you this morning. You were on my heart. It's so difficult to not feel anxious about things when your business is so new and I'm sure you're feeling quite stressed.
We're all rootin' for ya.
We're all rootin' for ya.
Pestle 08:58 PM 09-04-2016
I just bought a book called "No Biting" and I'm finally getting some interest from people on the side to replace him. He drew blood a couple of weeks ago--looks like his big sister has a scar now right across her cheek. He slashed at her with a badly broken nail that his parents didn't trim.
The tricky part is I have his older sister, and right now I only have any interest in his space from families whose kids are infants. I've got my application for licensing in, but was told to expect it to be 6 months to a year before they look at it. Without the license, I can only keep two under the age of 2. So with the one infant I already have, even if I replace this kid, I expect his parents to pull the older one, too.
I talked to the mom last week. Told her that today he repeatedly tried to kick the infant that I was wearing in a carrier, and tried to hit the infant in the head with a toy (I've been wearing the baby so he can't reach him). He wasn't angry. Didn't want anything. Just casually tried to attack.
That same week, his sister walked into the room and he squealed with joy, then ran up behind her and knocked her down.
I'm planning on spinning it like this:
"Billy needs one-on-one attention that I can't provide without neglecting the other kids, and I need to be able to guarantee the well-being of the children in my care, which I can't do until Billy understands that he shouldn't hurt people.
Billy and Janey have a destructive relationship. They cannot focus on their own activities as long as the other one is around, and they're both anxious and compulsive about taking toys from each other. I think that if Billy and Janey go to another care provider together, their relationship will just move along with them. I'd be very happy to keep Janey here so that both kids are able to develop healthy social skills apart from each other. Since I know you're considering homeschooling, I can use the lessons and materials I've already created for my own child to get Janey prepared for preschool."
The tricky part is I have his older sister, and right now I only have any interest in his space from families whose kids are infants. I've got my application for licensing in, but was told to expect it to be 6 months to a year before they look at it. Without the license, I can only keep two under the age of 2. So with the one infant I already have, even if I replace this kid, I expect his parents to pull the older one, too.
I talked to the mom last week. Told her that today he repeatedly tried to kick the infant that I was wearing in a carrier, and tried to hit the infant in the head with a toy (I've been wearing the baby so he can't reach him). He wasn't angry. Didn't want anything. Just casually tried to attack.
That same week, his sister walked into the room and he squealed with joy, then ran up behind her and knocked her down.
I'm planning on spinning it like this:
"Billy needs one-on-one attention that I can't provide without neglecting the other kids, and I need to be able to guarantee the well-being of the children in my care, which I can't do until Billy understands that he shouldn't hurt people.
Billy and Janey have a destructive relationship. They cannot focus on their own activities as long as the other one is around, and they're both anxious and compulsive about taking toys from each other. I think that if Billy and Janey go to another care provider together, their relationship will just move along with them. I'd be very happy to keep Janey here so that both kids are able to develop healthy social skills apart from each other. Since I know you're considering homeschooling, I can use the lessons and materials I've already created for my own child to get Janey prepared for preschool."