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Unregistered 07:10 PM 03-23-2016
I was hoping to seek advise on what is the better way to handle parents that have decided not to have shots to their child, right down to TB. As we all know it is a requirement to being licensed. Our one family has had two weeks to make the decision to take the test or not. Because they took so long my DHS worker has given me a provisional license. I personally can't stand it and have taken to not liking the parents... which is almost spilling over to her child. After long conversations on it and them going back and forth with the state about their reason's why they didn't want to, they have decided to get the shot.... WHAT the what! not right is what I say since I am left with a provisional til she sends in her child's results.
With me now stopping the venting, would you change your policy for reasons like this? I feel so stressed about it now that I have a hard time focusing.
thanks for your comments of help
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spedmommy4 07:21 PM 03-23-2016
If it's a state requirement that children have certain vaccines, I do not allow them to attend until they provide proof of the required vaccines.

If you were converting from unlicensed to licensed, or in the process of receiving one, I would have termed the child pending proof of required vaccines. I would have said, "sorry, it's not personal, the state requires this. No exceptions."

Then it's on the parents to figure it out. Usually lack of childcare is a big motivation.
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NoMoreJuice! 07:22 PM 03-23-2016
Vaccination records are one of the items I go over when a parent asks what paperwork I require to enroll. If a parent informs me that they don't vaccinate their child, I let them know that I will not enroll their child and I send them down the road to find a provider who will. All paperwork is completed and turned in before the child steps foot in the door for their first day, so there are no surprises.
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MunchkinWrangler 07:24 PM 03-23-2016
That is really rough that their decision affected your license. What state is that, I have never heard of that. I personally don't allow anti vaxxers because I care for infants and I strongly believe in herd immunity and I think people take for granted the fact that we have a way to eradicate some of these nasty illnesses that past generations of families had to suffer with. With that said, my pediatrician also mentioned that this generation did not grow up with polio, smallpox, and the like and don't have a baseline of what these diseases are capable of. I just recently had to turn someone away from my program because her child wasn't vaccinated, she got snippy with me because I told her it was a requirement, which it is but licensing made it clear that I am allowed to make that decision on if I was going to allow it and have the correct signatures or not. I have to be careful because I can't discriminate but anti vaxxers are not a protected class. I also think about the possible immunocompromised child that could be in my care. My families are pro vax and it has been brought up at interviews as well. I personally require all vaccinations to be up to date to enroll in my program, and I don't discuss it further, unless a child is medically unable to receive them which would need a signature as well. I don't allow the conscientious objectors. I don't understand not getting the TB, it is just a simple test and isn't a vaccine. This is a hot button issue right now and people are so passionate about it.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 07:37 PM 03-23-2016
I am an anti-vaccination family and I enroll children who are not vaccinated, are only partially vaccinated, and are fully vaccinated. It is exactly the same as being out in public (the grocery store, public school, etc.). It is fully legal and will not affect your license at all so long as the family follows whatever protocol is required by your state (it's an exemption form here).
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spedmommy4 07:38 PM 03-23-2016
Originally Posted by MunchkinWrangler:
That is really rough that their decision affected your license. What state is that, I have never heard of that. I personally don't allow anti vaxxers because I care for infants and I strongly believe in herd immunity and I think people take for granted the fact that we have a way to eradicate some of these nasty illnesses that past generations of families had to suffer with. With that said, my pediatrician also mentioned that this generation did not grow up with polio, smallpox, and the like and don't have a baseline of what these diseases are capable of. I just recently had to turn someone away from my program because her child wasn't vaccinated, she got snippy with me because I told her it was a requirement, which it is but licensing made it clear that I am allowed to make that decision on if I was going to allow it and have the correct signatures or not. I have to be careful because I can't discriminate but anti vaxxers are not a protected class. I also think about the possible immunocompromised child that could be in my care. My families are pro vax and it has been brought up at interviews as well. I personally require all vaccinations to be up to date to enroll in my program, and I don't discuss it further, unless a child is medically unable to receive them which would need a signature as well. I don't allow the conscientious objectors. I don't understand not getting the TB, it is just a simple test and isn't a vaccine. This is a hot button issue right now and people are so passionate about it.
In California, parents can no longer decline required vaccines. The child would have to get a medical exemption. There are very few states this strict.
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MunchkinWrangler 08:02 PM 03-23-2016
Originally Posted by spedmommy4:
In California, parents can no longer decline required vaccines. The child would have to get a medical exemption. There are very few states this strict.
Oh ok. There was s a medical/allergy sign off and then there is a religious sign off. Licensing was clear though that there are a number of required vaccinations and I have to be vigilant, especially with that whole Disneyland Measles outbreak. The vaccines are required before children go to school as well so either way. I heard exemptions can be hard to get unless you find the right Dr. I don't appreciate people who will lie about religion being their cause as that's corrupt so I just require it and that's it. Sorry to hijack the thread.
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DaveA 04:00 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I was hoping to seek advise on what is the better way to handle parents that have decided not to have shots to their child, right down to TB. As we all know it is a requirement to being licensed. Our one family has had two weeks to make the decision to take the test or not. Because they took so long my DHS worker has given me a provisional license. I personally can't stand it and have taken to not liking the parents... which is almost spilling over to her child. After long conversations on it and them going back and forth with the state about their reason's why they didn't want to, they have decided to get the shot.... WHAT the what! not right is what I say since I am left with a provisional til she sends in her child's results.
With me now stopping the venting, would you change your policy for reasons like this? I feel so stressed about it now that I have a hard time focusing.
thanks for your comments of help
As for it holding up your license, probably the only solution is to tell DCPs "This is the requirement. Have it done and to paperwork to me by X date or I can no longer provide care."
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LysesKids 04:15 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by spedmommy4:
In California, parents can no longer decline required vaccines. The child would have to get a medical exemption. There are very few states this strict.
I can name at least one other.... West Va; Even with medical waivers, I had problems getting the public schools to accept 2 different ones - sorry but if my child had severe seizures on the first round & Dr's are afraid she could have worse reaction, inc death if she gets it again, yeah, I'll go back to homeschooling (and I did until she graduated High school)

My kids had medical waivers for live vaccines of any kind too because I was the caretaker for 2 cancer patients (my parents - I lived in the house before I did daycare).
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Thriftylady 04:39 AM 03-24-2016
I agree you options are to get whatever paperwork the state allows for exemptions or term. Since you are feeling angry about it, I would probably term. The relationship is broken.

In the future, don't allow anyone without the required paperwork, either shot records or whatever paperwork the state allows not to do them. I used to be one of those that said kiddos need the shots no matter what. Then a few years ago I got a flu and pneumonia shot and got very sick. They told me I could never have another of either. I will likely never get another vaccination. I was so sick. So, I would allow a medical exemption now in daycare, but would require the proper paperwork.
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ColorfulSunburst 04:52 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
I am an anti-vaccination family and I enroll children who are not vaccinated, are only partially vaccinated, and are fully vaccinated. It is exactly the same as being out in public (the grocery store, public school, etc.). It is fully legal and will not affect your license at all so long as the family follows whatever protocol is required by your state (it's an exemption form here).
it is not the same.

In my state it is not legal. I may not have unvaccinated kids here.
Do you inform parents that you enroll unvaccinated kids?
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childcaremom 05:07 AM 03-24-2016
If it is a requirement for your license, I would not let them attend until you had the required documentation saying that he had the shots/test/whatever.

If it has gotten to the point where it would affect your license and your business, I would term if parents aren't willing to get it done.
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kidsandchicks 05:21 AM 03-24-2016
Yep. What childcaremom said. Without jumping into the vaccine debate, if it is a requirement of licensing, and no waivers or exceptions are available, then providing documentation of immunizations is a must.

So your worker won't change your license now that the family is in compliance?

In the future, and this is what I did when I had to have either proof of vaccination or waiver, children could not attend without it. So, first day of care I required ALL signed paperwork, monies due, personal items requested, all that. That way I did not have to chase a family down since it was my license on the line if they didn't come through with promised paperwork.
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LysesKids 05:25 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by ColorfulSunburst:
it is not the same.

In my state it is not legal. I may not have unvaccinated kids here.
Do you inform parents that you enroll unvaccinated kids?
That means you turn away Medically waivered kids? Not sure thats legal considering a Medical waiver is accepted & a given for all 50 states. A medical waiver is different than choosing the religious option
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Rockgirl 05:39 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
That means you turn away Medically waivered kids? Not sure thats legal considering a Medical waiver is accepted & a given for all 50 states. A medical waiver is different than choosing the religious option
We were told we can turn them away (Texas).
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Play Care 05:55 AM 03-24-2016
This has nothing to do with personal beliefs about vaccinations.
If it's required in your state, then it's a requirement.

You wouldn't nap a baby on their belly or in a car seat because a parent tells you it's okay. It's against regs, period.

Same thing here.

I would tell the parent that this is the rule and unfortunately you are not allowed to provide care.

On side note, I don't know how California is handling medical waivers, though I know they've gotten very strict with vaccinations after several outbreaks. My guess is that any medical exemption must now meet stricter criteria (perhaps an event witnessed/documented by medical personnel rather than a parent claim?) Can someone be turned away with a valid medical exemption? Probably not. This is where they are counting on "herd immunity." But I would check with licensing about that to be sure.
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LysesKids 06:09 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Rockgirl:
We were told we can turn them away (Texas).
That would have meant my child never going to daycare ... heck I was told schools can't turn away medical waivers because they are state legal

And people want to know why I accept medically fragile babies... they can't always get their shots because of issues, so what does a parent do, if everyone denies a STATE LEGAL FORM?
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LysesKids 06:14 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Play Care:
This has nothing to do with personal beliefs about vaccinations.
If it's required in your state, then it's a requirement.

You wouldn't nap a baby on their belly or in a car seat because a parent tells you it's okay. It's against regs, period.

Same thing here.

I would tell the parent that this is the rule and unfortunately you are not allowed to provide care.

On side note, I don't know how California is handling medical waivers, though I know they've gotten very strict with vaccinations after several outbreaks. My guess is that any medical exemption must now meet stricter criteria (perhaps an event witnessed/documented by medical personnel rather than a parent claim?) Can someone be turned away with a valid medical exemption? Probably not. This is where they are counting on "herd immunity." But I would check with licensing about that to be sure.
My understanding was medical waivers could only be done by a licensed DR... parents can't just say they have a medical waiver... I had to jump hoops to get WV to accept MD Dr paperwork ( the DR that waived my child)... of course down the line all 3 of my kids ended up with a Medical waiver for EVERY LIVE VAX due to the situation I was dealing with. Daycares & Schools accepted them, but it came from a form signed by an oncologist, not just the kids Pediatrician. When 2 Dr's sign off, you better believe there is a reason
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Rockgirl 06:21 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
That would have meant my child never going to daycare ... heck I was told schools can't turn away medical waivers because they are state legal

And people want to know why I accept medically fragile babies... they can't always get their shots because of issues, so what does a parent do, if everyone denies a STATE LEGAL FORM?
It doesn't mean everyone turns them away...just that we have the option. I'm not a public school--I'm a business owner. I consider the infants in my care--the ones too young to have had all their vax--we depend on the older children here to have had theirs to protect those infants. And that is as far into the vax debate as I will go.
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snbauser 06:25 AM 03-24-2016
Without wading into the vax debate and to answer the op question...the way you do it is fairly easy...you stop allowing a parent to dictate how your business is run. If it's a state reg, then they can't attend until you have what you need. No exceptions.
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Lovisa 06:27 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by NoMoreJuice!:
Vaccination records are one of the items I go over when a parent asks what paperwork I require to enroll. If a parent informs me that they don't vaccinate their child, I let them know that I will not enroll their child and I send them down the road to find a provider who will. All paperwork is completed and turned in before the child steps foot in the door for their first day, so there are no surprises.
Exactly what I do!

Originally Posted by LysesKids:
That means you turn away Medically waivered kids? Not sure thats legal considering a Medical waiver is accepted & a given for all 50 states. A medical waiver is different than choosing the religious option
I am in Ca and turn away any kid that isn't fully vaccinated (I've been doing that since before the new restrictions on waivers).

Before I even give the parents their new client packet, I go over a few things on the phone or via text (vaccines MUST be up to date and we have a cat in the home). If either of these are a problem, I won't even invite them for an interview. PLENTY of other things are discussed at the interview, but these are two things that I won't bend on. Your child must be vaccinated, and your child will be around our family pet.
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Annalee 06:31 AM 03-24-2016
I took one family who did not vaccinate...State made me get a notarized form for their record.....will NEVER take another family like that again....they were here July 23 thru Nov. 19 when I terminated.....the oddest relationship or lack thereof I have EVER had.....doctor notes were brought in for EVERYTHING.....licensing says it is MY decision to enroll or not so I choose from now on to NOT enroll any unvaccinated child!
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Blackcat31 06:33 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
That means you turn away Medically waivered kids? Not sure thats legal considering a Medical waiver is accepted & a given for all 50 states. A medical waiver is different than choosing the religious option
There is no law stating a family child care HAS to accept a non-vaccinated kid (even if they are non-vax'ed due to medical reasons). As a business owner it's MY right to refuse to enroll or to enroll. I don't even have to share my reasons. Not being vaccinated is not a protected class covered by the ADA so it is not discrimination as defined by law.

Originally Posted by LysesKids:
My understanding was medical waivers could only be done by a licensed DR... parents can't just say they have a medical waiver... I had to jump hoops to get WV to accept MD Dr paperwork ( the DR that waived my child)... of course down the line all 3 of my kids ended up with a Medical waiver for EVERY LIVE VAX due to the situation I was dealing with. Daycares & Schools accepted them, but it came from a form signed by an oncologist, not just the kids Pediatrician. When 2 Dr's sign off, you better believe there is a reason
This may be different depending on which state you live in.

IIRC, there was a time in which parents in my state could simply opt not to vaccinate and there was no requirement as to why or why not. They just signed off on the part that stated "My child is not vaccinated".

I refuse to accept a non-vaccinated child into care.

I have my reasons too and they are just as valid as anyone else's so MY choice to not accept non-vax'ed kids supercedes the non-vax'ed child's right to enroll simply because I am a PRIVATE business owner.

These rules/policies may differ when it comes to public schools though.

As for the options for parents in situations like yours... I do NOT mean to come across as cold-hearted (just being factual) but YOU have to do what YOU have to do as their parent and if every daycare in the state refused to enroll your child, then you would have to stay home or find alternate care arrangements. It's that simple.

Again, I am not speaking for public schools etc... I am only referring to in home family child care.
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Annalee 06:36 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
There is no law stating a family child care HAS to accept a non-vaccinated kid (even if they are non-vax'ed due to medical reasons). As a business owner it's MY right to refuse to enroll or to enroll. I don't even have to share my reasons. Not being vaccinated is not a protected class covered by the ADA so it is not discrimination as defined by law.



This may be different depending on which state you live in.

IIRC, there was a time in which parents in my state could simply opt not to vaccinate and there was no requirement as to why or why not. They just signed off on the part that stated "My child is not vaccinated".

I refuse to accept a non-vaccinated child into care.

I have my reasons too and they are just as valid as anyone else's so MY choice to not accept non-vax'ed kids supercedes the non-vax'ed child's right to enroll simply because I am a PRIVATE business owner.

These rules/policies may differ when it comes to public schools though.

As for the options for parents in situations like yours... I do NOT mean to come across as cold-hearted (just being factual) but YOU have to do what YOU have to do as their parent and if every daycare in the state refused to enroll your child, then you would have to stay home or find alternate care arrangements. It's that simple.

Again, I am not speaking for public schools etc... I am only referring to in home family child care.
You are right! I am in Tennessee and licensing says it is MY choice to enroll or not.
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Blackcat31 06:48 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I was hoping to seek advise on what is the better way to handle parents that have decided not to have shots to their child, right down to TB. As we all know it is a requirement to being licensed. Our one family has had two weeks to make the decision to take the test or not. Because they took so long my DHS worker has given me a provisional license. I personally can't stand it and have taken to not liking the parents... which is almost spilling over to her child. After long conversations on it and them going back and forth with the state about their reason's why they didn't want to, they have decided to get the shot.... WHAT the what! not right is what I say since I am left with a provisional til she sends in her child's results.
With me now stopping the venting, would you change your policy for reasons like this? I feel so stressed about it now that I have a hard time focusing.
thanks for your comments of help
Can you either copy and paste the licensing rules in regards to this process (being given a provisional license) and the rules that say why they (the state) can do that based on parents? Or link to your state rules so we can read what it says.

Re-reading your post, I am thinking this isnt the parents fault at all. Maybe for not submitting paperwork when you asked but most state licensing agencies don't "punish" the provider when the parents don't submit paperwork UNLESS the provider continued to allow attendance KNOWING the family hadn't completed all the required paperwork.

If I didn't receive the required paperwork for a family upon enrollment I would not allow them to attend and the state could not cite me for it because I followed the regulations....however if I still allowed them to attend KNOWING they didnt have all the required paperwork then that would fall on ME and the state could cite me for it.

THAT ^^^^ is what I think is going on here.

If that is the case, you are placing blame on the wrong party.
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Play Care 06:54 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by :
If I didn't receive the required paperwork for a family upon enrollment I would not allow them to attend and the state could not cite me for it because I followed the regulations....however if I still allowed them to attend KNOWING they didnt have all the required paperwork then that would fall on ME and the state could cite me for it.

THAT ^^^^ is what I think is going on here.

If that is the case, you are placing blame on the wrong party.
This exactly.
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MunchkinWrangler 07:36 AM 03-24-2016
Oh gosh, I hope this isn't a troll!
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LysesKids 08:57 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Rockgirl:
It doesn't mean everyone turns them away...just that we have the option. I'm not a public school--I'm a business owner. I consider the infants in my care--the ones too young to have had all their vax--we depend on the older children here to have had theirs to protect those infants. And that is as far into the vax debate as I will go.
Oh I get that... I deal with nothing but infants so mine never have all their vax depending on age; Heck most leave here barely old enough to get the MMR or they have only gotten first round.
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Unregistered 09:50 AM 03-24-2016
In MN there are two ways to exempt from immunizations: medical or conscientious objection. According to the current immunization form from the state.

Are there actually states where dcks need a Tb test?
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thrivingchildcarecom 10:28 AM 03-24-2016
Yeah! I know what you mean. I actually did make the decision not to enroll families that do not intend to immunize.

Sound harsh? Well here's why...

Years ago I had a child that had a very low immune system. At the time I had parents that didn't want to pick up kids when they were sick. Anyway, the little girl caught a cold from one of the kids that didn't get picked up. However, because she had a low immune, she wound up in the hospital. I felt so bad!

Anyway, no shots, no care. That's just the way I roll!
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Cat Herder 10:49 AM 03-24-2016
The best way to keep parents from getting your business in hot water is to not let them.

No.

No is a complete sentence. You should never feel guilt, pressure or be in a position where their family's needs outranks your family's needs.

I have been told this becomes more sticky when clients are on subsidy? OP is this why you were not "allowed" to terminate this family's contract? Are they a state subsidy client?
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EntropyControlSpecialist 11:00 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by ColorfulSunburst:
it is not the same.

In my state it is not legal. I may not have unvaccinated kids here.
Do you inform parents that you enroll unvaccinated kids?
Does the grocery store or public school post a notice that unvaccinated people walk around there? Totally unnecessary. However, I become friends with ALL of my clients and they are ALL aware. When asked about vaccinations during interviews I inform incoming clients that I am like a public school and enroll children who are both vaccinated and unvaccinated. That is perfectly legal in my state.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 11:03 AM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
The best way to keep parents from getting your business in hot water is to not let them.

No.

No is a complete sentence. You should never feel guilt, pressure or be in a position where their family's needs outranks your family's needs.

I have been told this becomes more sticky when clients are on subsidy? OP is this why you were not "allowed" to terminate this family's contract? Are they a state subsidy client?
Agreed. Hope this works out for you.
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ColorfulSunburst 12:58 PM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
Does the grocery store or public school post a notice that unvaccinated people walk around there? Totally unnecessary. However, I become friends with ALL of my clients and they are ALL aware. When asked about vaccinations during interviews I inform incoming clients that I am like a public school and enroll children who are both vaccinated and unvaccinated. That is perfectly legal in my state.
I just hope you do not take infants.
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CityGarden 01:13 PM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by spedmommy4:
In California, parents can no longer decline required vaccines. The child would have to get a medical exemption. There are very few states this strict.
This is NEW to California. While I am not personally anti-vax I delayed and spread out vaccinations for my own dd (it is a pain to do it but I don't regret it). One thing my daughter's pediatrician noted when we (the doctor and I decided on this approach) was to note that this choice of delayed vax was a luxury I had by being a SAHM and not needing my dd in daycare.

People were really freaked out by the measles outbreak that was traced back to Disneyland and I feel the policy change was based out of fear.

I would not take anti-vax families especially if it put your license at risk. I would be willing to take delayed vax if they were up to date on the ones required at the time they entered my care.
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LysesKids 01:57 PM 03-24-2016
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Can you either copy and paste the licensing rules in regards to this process (being given a provisional license) and the rules that say why they (the state) can do that based on parents? Or link to your state rules so we can read what it says.

Re-reading your post, I am thinking this isnt the parents fault at all. Maybe for not submitting paperwork when you asked but most state licensing agencies don't "punish" the provider when the parents don't submit paperwork UNLESS the provider continued to allow attendance KNOWING the family hadn't completed all the required paperwork.

If I didn't receive the required paperwork for a family upon enrollment I would not allow them to attend and the state could not cite me for it because I followed the regulations....however if I still allowed them to attend KNOWING they didnt have all the required paperwork then that would fall on ME and the state could cite me for it.

THAT ^^^^ is what I think is going on here.

If that is the case, you are placing blame on the wrong party.
See this is me... I consider a copy of immunizations/alternate schedule or written state waiver part of the registration paperwork I need before the first day a child attends...I don't get that paper, they get no care, but they still have to pay while their child is excluded (it's part of my contract and it states it in policies they get before signing); the only exception is a 6 week old infant that won't get their first set until 8-10 weeks (at least around here).
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Tags:enforcing policies - consistency, vaccinations
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