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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>This Is A Huge Problem And Something Needs To Be Done
grateday 12:19 AM 03-08-2014
Is there any way to petition a national change here on what is going on in our childcares and centers and schools in terms of illnesses and parents putting everyone at risk.

I know there is change.org but who do we need to petition exactly to make it a law that you cannot drop a kid off who has certain symptoms of needing to stay home. Who do you contact.

Define it in such a way that the parent does not have to worry about losing there job
Make it so that the CDC defines parameters for parents and employers as to what to do
Define it so that employers are well aware and there is proof - dr notes, prescriptions, etc, photos, etc.

I mean sending kids to care with funny rashes
So lethargic
Diarrhea
Fever
Seizures

The law should state the child needs to be picked up immediately and state a time frame that is reasonable; except in the case of those occupations where leaving work right away is going to kill someone or put someone at risk.

Does anyone else have anything to add here
Does anyone know someone good at writing things up
Does anyone know someone with experience in government that could chime in

Cause I am so tired of all of this crap and I am ready to be involved in changing it. Is anyone with me here on this.
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JenNJ 06:47 AM 03-08-2014
I don't see how a law will help. Are you going to jail parents for doping and dropping? No employer will be on board with this. Any person could say, "My kid is sick. I'm not coming today." Then the employer is out an employee and has no recourse. It's just not a feasible option.

What needs to happen is daycares need to enforce policies and term when a parent violates it. Every single time.
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Blackcat31 07:30 AM 03-08-2014
Originally Posted by JenNJ:
I don't see how a law will help. Are you going to jail parents for doping and dropping? No employer will be on board with this. Any person could say, "My kid is sick. I'm not coming today." Then the employer is out an employee and has no recourse. It's just not a feasible option.

What needs to happen is daycares need to enforce policies and term when a parent violates it. Every single time.
I agree!

There is NO law that will stop parents from doing this.

YOU are the owner of your business. Make rules and enforce them.

That really is the ONLY way you are going to eliminate this issue.

I have VERY strict illness rules and have VERY little incidence of illnesses circulating and NO incidences of parents knowingly dropping off sick children.

While illnesses and sickness can and do happen, it does NOT run rampant through my care.

My parents all know that I take illness and exclusion VERY seriously and that I WILL and DO enforce ALL policies that were discussed and agreed to upon enrollment.

It really doesn't require a law at all.

It requires providers to be willing to risk the loss of an upset parent and providers who are diligent about the rules/policies they make WITHOUT fear of losing income and/or clients.

IME, a LARGE number of providers do not enforce their own policies for fear of losing income.

IF you are one of those providers, you will NEVER be able to get the illness and spread of such illnesses under control no matter what type of rule, regulations, policies or laws are in place.

It doesn't require congress or licensing to change this....it only takes YOU.
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Laurel 07:44 AM 03-08-2014
I agree with the others.

I don't want any more government intrusion in my life than is necessary. I don't want laws regarding who I can and cannot watch. I want to be able to make those decisions and not have them made for me. kwim?

Laurel
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grateday 08:15 AM 03-08-2014
This is what should change

Here is how I see it. Employers need to come up with a way of communicating.

Parents should not have to fear losing there job because they are taking care of an ill child

Also, providers and parents need to be more accountable. I am not saying jail a parent or provider either.

I am saying how can DHS help the new provider with this. How can our local clinics and other parent resources help parents see this. How can we make it part of a parent interview question- from childcare resource and referral. How can we bring about an awareness of the problem. How can we make it more taboo than it already is. Or maybe an explanation of scenario might spell it out. Even with all this you are going to get that person that does not care-yeah but at least it is out there in a way that is clear.

Black cat I liked that form that you had that said something about needing an evaluation from a doctor. I think that is an important start in accountability. It says hey, take your kid in and don't come back until I know from a doctor what is going on. But it also says that you have the right to turn around and say you cannot come here because you are still putting others at risk.

I spoke with a doctor who said that when they fill out a doctors note, they do so but only state a minimum amount of time that a parent should be away from work. You see that is not always enough time to avoid spreading germs. The doctor is considering the employer and parent relationship. Not the daycare parent relationship.
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Leanna 08:29 AM 03-08-2014
Some people specialize in "sick child care." Whether anyone agrees or disagrees with it or not there are parents who can't or won't be able to care for their children at all times.

In NYS the state designates 3 types of care, well care, which is well (no symptoms), mildly ill care (symptoms you might find with the common cold like a runny nose, etc.), and sick child care. Within those designations, each provider must decide what he or she is comfortable with, make policies based on that, and ENFORCE them. A sick child will not be at day care if you don't let them in. If the parents lie to get them in and you discover it, well then you can decide how to handle it. If this is unacceptable to you, term.

As much as we lay on the parents, we providers must do our part too. Make sure the kids wash their hands before eating, after using the potty, etc., sanitize toys that have been mouthed, teach healthy practices like covering their mouths when they sneeze & cough.

Please remember also that kids get sick. They just do. And yes, sadly there are parents out there who don't care, but I believe these parents are few and far between. Most parents are just trying to juggle everything in their lives.
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Evansmom 08:34 AM 03-08-2014
OP, I see what you're saying I think. So you're talking about supporting legislation that says parents can't lose their jobs for staying home with a sick child and that docs could be required to write excuses that exclude for an amount of time that actually lessens the risk of spreading germs? Am I correct? You're not proposing legislation on daycares. You're saying the root of the problem is that parents fear for their jobs and so if they could be legally allowed to stay home with their sick child without consequences from their employer (similar to FMLA?) that it would help the dope and drop situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, this idea intrigues me.
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CraftyMom 08:55 AM 03-08-2014
Originally Posted by Evansmom:
OP, I see what you're saying I think. So you're talking about supporting legislation that says parents can't lose their jobs for staying home with a sick child and that docs could be required to write excuses that exclude for an amount of time that actually lessens the risk of spreading germs? Am I correct? You're not proposing legislation on daycares. You're saying the root of the problem is that parents fear for their jobs and so if they could be legally allowed to stay home with their sick child without consequences from their employer (similar to FMLA?) that it would help the dope and drop situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, this idea intrigues me.
This is the way I understood the post as well, and I agree. I think more parents would keep their kids home if they had more time allowed from their jobs to be able to do so.
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Leanna 09:09 AM 03-08-2014
Originally Posted by Evansmom:
OP, I see what you're saying I think. So you're talking about supporting legislation that says parents can't lose their jobs for staying home with a sick child and that docs could be required to write excuses that exclude for an amount of time that actually lessens the risk of spreading germs? Am I correct? You're not proposing legislation on daycares. You're saying the root of the problem is that parents fear for their jobs and so if they could be legally allowed to stay home with their sick child without consequences from their employer (similar to FMLA?) that it would help the dope and drop situation.
Correct me if I'm wrong, this idea intrigues me.
Now this I agree with.
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Laurel 11:16 AM 03-08-2014
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Now this I agree with.
Hmmm, I'm not sure how I feel about this if this is what is being proposed. Let me play devil's advocate and assume I am an employer.

It sounds good but I'm not sure it is any fairer for employers to have to be concerned with something that a family should be responsible for. Shouldn't a family have a back up? Would it be 'paid' time off for tending to a sick child? How many days, as an employer, am I required to allow a parent? What happens when the child is still sick (as in the case of difficult or long term illness) after the allotted days are up? What if the family is living the high life and they could afford for one spouse to be home full time or at least work part time but the parent decides to work full time for more money. Then should that employer be obligated to be inconvenienced just because a person has a child/children?

Also, I can see problems with employees that don't have children. Would they get the same number of days and that kind of thing.

Just thinking out loud and wondering if I would sign a petition for this issue.

Laurel
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Margarete 01:49 PM 03-08-2014
Lets look at the FMLA law already in place. Businesses that have less then (50 I think is the number) do not have to comply. If they are a larger company in most states employers or daycares for that matter can still let people/ clients go for not being a good fit, or just give notice and not list a reason.
I know someone on an approved leave, where the company sent out contract renewal paperwork while he was out, and it was due before he got back. He had been with the company for 8 years, and they told him because he missed the deadline he would have to re-apply for his job... they didn't re-hire him.
Things like this happen all the time where employees are punished/ let go for using time off that is allowed but not convenient for the employer... even though officially it's for 'no reason' or some other reason.
Or Imagine it from the employers point of view.. You run a childcare facility and don't allow children of employees in the center, an employee tells you I need to be at my child's daycare in 30 minutes which means I'm giving you 15 minutes notice before I head out the door. The employee leaving would legally put you out of compliance with staff/ child ratio's, and you have no time to get a substitute. What if this was happening on a regular basis? Would you even want to hire parents of small children?
FMLA already allows employees of larger companies to legally take 12 weeks of non-paid time off to care for sick family, with guarantee of having their job when they return (but not necessarily 2 weeks later). I don't see a separate law changing the climate of some employers or jobs. Regardless, parents still should make sure if they are not able to take time off, or leave their work in certain amount of time, that someone else can provide that care for their sick child when needed.
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Laurel 02:04 PM 03-08-2014
Originally Posted by Margarete:
Lets look at the FEMA law already in place. Businesses that have less then (50 I think is the number) do not have to comply. If they are a larger company in most states employers or daycares for that matter can still let people/ clients go for not being a good fit, or just give notice and not list a reason.
I know someone on an approved leave, where the company sent out contract renewal paperwork while he was out, and it was due before he got back. He had been with the company for 8 years, and they told him because he missed the deadline he would have to re-apply for his job... they didn't re-hire him.
Things like this happen all the time where employees are punished/ let go for using time off that is allowed but not convenient for the employer... even though officially it's for 'no reason' or some other reason.
Or Imagine it from the employers point of view.. You run a childcare facility and don't allow children of employees in the center, an employee tells you I need to be at my child's daycare in 30 minutes which means I'm giving you 15 minutes notice before I head out the door. The employee leaving would legally put you out of compliance with staff/ child ratio's, and you have no time to get a substitute. What if this was happening on a regular basis? Would you even want to hire parents of small children?
FEMA already allows employees of larger companies to legally take 12 weeks of non-paid time off to care for sick family, with guarantee of having their job when they return (but not necessarily 2 weeks later). I don't see a separate law changing the climate of some employers or jobs. Regardless, parents still should make sure if they are not able to take time off, or leave their work in certain amount of time, that someone else can provide that care for their sick child when needed.
Hmmm, I didn't know any of that. Thanks for the info.

Laurel
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grateday 02:37 PM 03-08-2014
Yes that is correct, what you are saying with the FEMA law. That is really sad and I agree that letting someone go and not re-hiring is all too common place. I made a choice to leave the working world because of my sons illness and no childcare other than some centers with waiting lists would enroll him when I was looking. I like that New York state has that law about separating the types of care. But that could be problematic

I think a business is not making money if the workers are not there to work depending on the employment structure. I think that parents need time to care for there kids though.

What if an employer had something like a sick money pot. Ok so every worker pays into it, every worker gets so much time based on how many family members they have. Now if a parent happened to go over that time because they truly needed too that parent would have to make that up by putting more money back into that pot. Because in essense they would be borrowing from others pot. The parent would have to have doctors notes, evidence, things to prove.

The other issue is that employers would not want to hire parents. I see that too, but something has to change still. Because if we do nothing we (parents/providers) are kind of stuck.

Yes back up care is an issue though.

Back up care, means the ability to ask a neighbor in some cases, and that can be hard. I have no family in the community I reside and neither do some of my parents so they have had to ask neighbors.

I support having a choice and there needs to be a place where children who are ill can go too.

Ok, so I see that is a good point about the employer not finding coverage. But, here is the thing. If a parent knows that you operate on a more well child type of care and they don't agree, here is were black cat's advice has come in handy. Help the parents to see the fundamental differences you have and terminate the agreement.

This is were we need some defining like new york state has language to be able to say what needs to be said before a person enters care.

Ok also the state of Oregon mandates a week of paid sick leave to parents and this is a new law that has been a game changer for many small businesses. The problem is that they are paying them their full rate. I think they should pay them half time rate for half the week. Work on flexible working options if possible-working from home. Sort of like being on a short term disability. The thing is I see the other side of the fence.

But the problem is the flu epidemic is not going to get better if employers, parents, and providers don't work together for some sort of change here.
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NoMoreJuice! 04:58 PM 03-08-2014
We have an exclusion policy in Kansas:

http://www.kdheks.gov/bcclr/applicat..._Exclusion.pdf
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Blackcat31 06:01 PM 03-08-2014
Originally Posted by grateday:
Yes that is correct, what you are saying with the FEMA law. That is really sad and I agree that letting someone go and not re-hiring is all too common place. I made a choice to leave the working world because of my sons illness and no childcare other than some centers with waiting lists would enroll him when I was looking. I like that New York state has that law about separating the types of care. But that could be problematic

I think a business is not making money if the workers are not there to work depending on the employment structure. I think that parents need time to care for there kids though.

What if an employer had something like a sick money pot. Ok so every worker pays into it, every worker gets so much time based on how many family members they have. Now if a parent happened to go over that time because they truly needed too that parent would have to make that up by putting more money back into that pot. Because in essense they would be borrowing from others pot. The parent would have to have doctors notes, evidence, things to prove.

The other issue is that employers would not want to hire parents. I see that too, but something has to change still. Because if we do nothing we (parents/providers) are kind of stuck.

Yes back up care is an issue though.

Back up care, means the ability to ask a neighbor in some cases, and that can be hard. I have no family in the community I reside and neither do some of my parents so they have had to ask neighbors.

I support having a choice and there needs to be a place where children who are ill can go too.

Ok, so I see that is a good point about the employer not finding coverage. But, here is the thing. If a parent knows that you operate on a more well child type of care and they don't agree, here is were black cat's advice has come in handy. Help the parents to see the fundamental differences you have and terminate the agreement.

This is were we need some defining like new york state has language to be able to say what needs to be said before a person enters care.

Ok also the state of Oregon mandates a week of paid sick leave to parents and this is a new law that has been a game changer for many small businesses. The problem is that they are paying them their full rate. I think they should pay them half time rate for half the week. Work on flexible working options if possible-working from home. Sort of like being on a short term disability. The thing is I see the other side of the fence.

But the problem is the flu epidemic is not going to get better if employers, parents, and providers don't work together for some sort of change here.
The flu epidemic, like many other ailments and illnesses WOULD decline if parents used the resources and knowledge we (society) have already given them.

Proper nutrition, plenty of exercise, good sound sleep and
OVER ALL healthy habits .

If every single parent in the country put their child to bed ROUTINELY, met ALL their nutritional, physical and emotional needs the health of our nation WOULD be better.

I don't think making laws to "fix" this would help because there are too many variables and differing situations that it would be impossible.

Instead, I think our aim should be the root of the issue.

WHY are kids getting sick more than in previous generations?

We (as providers) all know why. We see it every day. Non-napping babies, fast food diets, virtually no exercise, being "on the go" continually and no routines such as bed times.

A good majority of these children are being denied good health simply do to parenting.

YOU as a provider can change that. YOU can make a change with out legislative intervention just by communicating with your clients.

Advocate for good health, good sleep and healthy life styles.
Educate parents AND children.

The impact YOU make now on the children in your care IS the beginning of the change you are calling for.
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Play Care 06:30 AM 03-10-2014
I DO believe there should be sick time for every job. I believe ANY PERSON who needs it should be able to take it WITHOUT fear of losing their job. I don't think it should be a parent issue - there are people who may not have children but are caring for family members who are ill, etc.

I think our family leave policies are SHAMEFUL.

I DO think the day is coming where those of us who enforce our illness policy will lose out on clients who will go to providers who are more lax.

That said, I'm so sick of laws and legislation that do NOTHING except cause unnecessary stress. They will pass a law saying employers need to provide time, but no substance to back up the law. *technically* you have the time, but heaven forbid you use it
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WImom 07:40 AM 03-10-2014
Originally Posted by grateday:
This is what should change

Here is how I see it. Employers need to come up with a way of communicating.

Parents should not have to fear losing there job because they are taking care of an ill child

Also, providers and parents need to be more accountable. I am not saying jail a parent or provider either.

I am saying how can DHS help the new provider with this. How can our local clinics and other parent resources help parents see this. How can we make it part of a parent interview question- from childcare resource and referral. How can we bring about an awareness of the problem. How can we make it more taboo than it already is. Or maybe an explanation of scenario might spell it out. Even with all this you are going to get that person that does not care-yeah but at least it is out there in a way that is clear.

Black cat I liked that form that you had that said something about needing an evaluation from a doctor. I think that is an important start in accountability. It says hey, take your kid in and don't come back until I know from a doctor what is going on. But it also says that you have the right to turn around and say you cannot come here because you are still putting others at risk.

I spoke with a doctor who said that when they fill out a doctors note, they do so but only state a minimum amount of time that a parent should be away from work. You see that is not always enough time to avoid spreading germs. The doctor is considering the employer and parent relationship. Not the daycare parent relationship.
I agree - if all employers were required to have sick days available to parents they may be better keeping kids home. Also not penalizing them for leaving for a sick child.
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Sugar Magnolia 11:37 AM 03-10-2014
I bet this isn't a problem in Europe.
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renodeb 01:46 PM 03-10-2014
I agree with others, no law is going to help. Providers need to enforce there own sick policies. For most of my clients my using the dc regs is good enough for them. The few problem parents I have had tend to come around eventually. I have never had anyone leave because of sick policies. (well yet). Each provider needs to discuss sick policies at the interview/enrollment. Our business our rules.
Deb
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Country Kids 02:19 PM 03-10-2014
I think employers should let employees build sick time up-8 hours a month or something like that but let them use it hourly if necessary.

My hubby worked for a place that allowed him to use his sick time for the family. If one of our kiddos had a dr. appt/dentist appt./some type of medical appt./pick a sick kid up from school he was allowed to use his sick time with no penalty. He was given 8 hours a month and could use it hourly I believe wish was SO nice. Took a load of stress off of me.
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Blackcat31 02:31 PM 03-10-2014
Originally Posted by WImom:
I agree - if all employers were required to have sick days available to parents they may be better keeping kids home. Also not penalizing them for leaving for a sick child.
I had a DCM once that would ask me periodically if I would call into her work and say her child was sick.....

...so she could go home WIHTOUT him and yet not get in trouble with her employer.

This was NOT a minimum wage parent either. She held a masters degree for her position.

So just like DC providers that have issues believing parents about a child's illness (or lack of) how are employers suppose to KNOW that an employee isn't lying about their child being sick and maybe just wanting to take some time off?

I also think that a lot of jobs DO come with PTO time. It seems it is mostly the minimum wage jobs that don't have that but I also believe that minimum wage jobs are suppose to be starting points for people and not jobs in which families raise children with the expectation that, that job will cover them when their child is sick.

For employers who have a majority of minimum wage employers, I think it is simply not feasible for them to supply PTO time too.
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Sugar Magnolia 04:42 PM 03-10-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I had a DCM once that would ask me periodically if I would call into her work and say her child was sick.....

...so she could go home WIHTOUT him and yet not get in trouble with her employer.

This was NOT a minimum wage parent either. She held a masters degree for her position.

So just like DC providers that have issues believing parents about a child's illness (or lack of) how are employers suppose to KNOW that an employee isn't lying about their child being sick and maybe just wanting to take some time off?

I also think that a lot of jobs DO come with PTO time. It seems it is mostly the minimum wage jobs that don't have that but I also believe that minimum wage jobs are suppose to be starting points for people and not jobs in which families raise children with the expectation that, that job will cover them when their child is sick.

For employers who have a majority of minimum wage employers, I think it is simply not feasible for them to supply PTO time too.
Yikes! That's like ASKING for Karma to pay a visit.
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Tags:burnout, enforcing policies - consistency, provider accountability, venting
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