I have been doing so well after almost 9 years of daycare but a new child (4 yrs old) has my head spinning! Literally getting a migrane over this and I need some help please.

So he is a new child enrolled just this week. Upon interview Mom said he had ADHD and ODD and was been kicked out of a large daycare for unruly behavior and the examples she gave me sounded usual and something I was able to cope with. First 2 days were fine. He had the usual push to a child here and there nothing abnormal. Had good manners, did as I asked basically. Today was good until I was cooking lunch. He smacked a 2 yr old in the face when I asked why he said because he didn't like him. I asked why he said because he's a baby. I sat him for time out and got the plates ready. uring lunch he was having some attitude and I ignored it. the more i ignored it the worse it got. He tore his food apart and threw it in the garbage. I warned him if he did that I would not give any more until snack. He was quiet and went to the living room. He tried to watch TV I said no TV today (sometimes I allow nickJR at nap time for kids who dont nap) He got mad and threw his cot. I told him to stop and he spit on me. I told him he is going to have to go home if he does it again so he did it again. He ran upstairs wouldnt get on the phone with his Mom. I told her we would try to work things out. I figured he would calm down and come down but instead I hear spitting. I look up and he is spitting down over the railing to the 1st floor. I ran up he shut the bathroom door. I pushed my way in and he kicked my heater across the room. I got him out but he is such a large child I couldnt get him down the stairs. I call DCM and shes on her way. I told him get his coat he has to leave. He yelled no bitch and threw my tree down the stairs. he started spitting over the railing again on to my picture frames and lamp etc. I have to get him down so I go up and try to pull him by his hand. He spit in my face and said shut up bitch! I yelled at him told him to STOP! he then said "Do you want me to smack you bitch?" I am almost in tears by this point I dont understand what the heck got into this kid. I get him downstairs and he goes spitting around the room on my sofa, on my dog, on the other child. I grab him to hold him and he spits down my arms and pinches my breast so I had to let go. Again he runs and spits on the sofa and the dog I get the dog out and guard the kids. I dont know what to do I am in shock and this kid is in control of my house! I want to put a bag over his head but know I cant. Finally his Mom comes and I think thank God. She tries to talk to him like a therapist no sorry to me. I told her everything that happened and she just said "Really Joseph lets go now" She pulled him out the door said she would call me later. What the hell happened here? What am I supposed to do with an extreme spitter??

I have NEVER had a child flip a switch like this!! This isn't normal ADHD ODD issues this is like bipolar, devil possesion!

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Personally, I would term. No way is DCM paying enough for me to deal with that kind of abuse.

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HOLY CRAP!!!!

My phone call would be really short- "Find care somewhere else. He's not coming back here." If he does that right out of the gate it's not going to get better. I hate to think what his home behaviors are like or what he's modeling. The fact that you didn't even get a sorry from DCM makes me pretty sure this will repeat itself. Disconnect yourself from them ASAP.

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She and her husband said they don't understand why he does this because he does not do these behaviors at home with them or his teenage siblings. My guess is he doesn't want them to leave him anywhere. I'm still in shock. DCM text said she would bring check but didnt ask if he was allowed back or anything just she will bring the weeks check. he's not scheduled again until next week so I don't know what's on her mind. I would be calling not texting and apologising abundantly! I dont know who shocks me more.

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OH MY!!!
It takes a lot for me to term (well I haven't done it yet) and this would make me run! I would not do another day with that child, I don't care if mom apologizes or not. I am in shock that a 4 year old did all that.

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Term. The writing is on the wall. Clearly mom downplayed the behavior so you would take him.

But the day a child spits at me would be their last day here. They wouldn't even finish out the day.

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BUH BYE! I wouldn't even entertain working with that. It's obviously an ongoing concern. Mom needs a nanny, and a psych eval.

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Yeah right! If he doesn't do it at home, she would be apologizing profusely! It sounds like they are used to it.

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I call BS on DCP- they've seen that crap before and don't want to admit it. She didn't ask because she doesn't want to bring it up & hopes you'll let it slide. If you're going to term, make sure are clear about it. If they're that much in denial they might take anything less as a "suggestion" and try to keep bringing him.

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Bologna.

They either downplay his behavior BIG TIME OR they cater to his every whim to prevent him from behaving like a demon possessed little monster.

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Oohhhhhhh no, no, no, no, no. He has serious mental health issues that cannot be tolerated in group care. Buh bye. The only group care he needs is the one he'll get in a psychiatric facility. I feel terrible for the parents who are trying to deal with this little devil, but it is not appropriate to expose the other children to this kind of behavior and language. Send them packing.

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Term. For the safety of the other children, for the safety of your dog, for this child's safety. He needs way more help than you can offer.

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Sounds exactly like the ADHD/ODD kids that I had. I'll NEVER, EVER, EVER take another ODD child. EEEEEEVER. Not at all worth it. Not even a little. Not for ANY amount of money.

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I'm sorry this happened to you.

Be done with that child today!

He is going to hurt somebody. And I say somebody instead of just children, cause he has targeted you too! If you are having difficulty getting him to stop hurting you, how are you going to get him to stop hurting the other children? With this kind of aggression, I don't think I would even want to incorporate an assistant to try and make it work, just an instant termination notice.

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ODD is particularly hard because the usual treatment is behavior therapy, so basically counseling. There isn't a med for it, even though some add meds help to an extent. These children usually have no respect for authority, truly believe everything they request should be immediately given, and see themselves as being equal or superior to adults. So they lash out at anyone having the audacity to discipline them. This has been my experience, anyway, with 2 children with ODD. Their parents continue to struggle with them and they are now teenagers. It's been a constant, lifelong battle for them.

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My 12 yr old son has ADHD and ODD I have been coping with his since he was 3 and I had a 6 yr old DCB for a couple years with the same. They each had issues but nothing to this extreme. I was/am able to get them to sit and calm down even at the worst level. But this was like a driven rage of spit. I don't think she thinks spitting is a big deal she did agree the behavior was "inapropriate" but that's all she said.

Personally I think ADHD and ODD diagnosis is slapped on many too many kids when not needed but this one.. Oh yeah! Someone needs to put the cuckoo back in the clock!

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Mom isn't lying about him not behaving like that at home.

Most children (not all) that have these types of issues don't have them at home because the environment at home has been altered to fit them. Or rather not upset them.

I am sure at home, he is given anything and everything he wants so that he doesn't have a fit or get upset.

If I were in your shoes I would NOT allow him to come back to care. I would also document and report this incident to licensing just so your butt is covered.

Incidences of extreme violence like that can be psychologically harmful for the children to have witnessed and you will unfortunately have to relay the short version to the other parents upon pick up today so that they are all aware of what happened.

I would also report this to licensing simply as a safety net for not only you but for this child as his parents seriously need to get him the help and/or services he clearly needs. If he is already in some sort therapy or seeing a specialist then that is great but still what a scary situation and one that will have fallout no matter what.

I am sorry you had to endure all that.

Are you okay?

Not just physically but emotionally as well?

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My VERY FIRST dck was very similar. No diagnosis that I know of. I had never heard of ODD until I joined here, Im sure my dck had it. He lasted 3 days here, I don't know how he lasted that long. I guess due to him being my first kid I wanted it to work. It ended when I asked him to wash his hands for lunch. He refused then ran away. I found him naked peeing on my living room rug! I asked him why "because I don't like you or your stupid house or your stupid dog" (6 pound yorkie) Then he told me he was going to get a gun and shoot me so I would be dead!! That was the end. This boy hadn't even turned 3 yet!

Mom was always talking in baby sweet talk to him, making excuses galore. In the end she tried blaming his previous daycare, kids were being mean to him. Yeah sure.

I am hoping you don't take him back. I would be worried for the other kids. The boy I had would just clothes line the other kids for no reason and other mean things, saying he didn't like them.

He could also be a sweet ray of sunshine...good manners, played very well, but only with one child, the others he bullied. He would fine as long as he could dictate the entire day.

He was previously at a center. Mom said she decided to go with home daycare so he could get more structure????? I now know he must have been kicked out of the center

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Words cannot express what you went through, I'm so sorry to hear that happened to you! For the safety and well being of yourself and anyone else in your home, I hope you do not allow DCB back in your home again. That is beyond what a daycare should be trying to help with, and you would be putting the safety of everyone involved at risk, as well as your job. Say he went into a rage and hurt another child? You'd be liable as you had known he was capable of it. I'd call DCM and explain that you are not able to care for anyone with that type of behavior and wish her luck. (I wouldn't want to even wish her luck, as her lack of outrage and huge expression apology would have been so disrespectful to me!)

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That level of aggression is usually across the board. It could be that he is dominant in their home, and they cater to him to prevent outbursts. It's just not safe for him to be in group care. I'm sorry that you had to experience that.

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Thank you for your concern it really means a lot! Everyones replies are really appreciated. I am fine, still in shock but I will be ok. Thank you. Talk about an instant headache! Tell ya what it makes me much much more thankful for all of my other kids! Even the naughty ones! lol I am giving everyone including the parents huge hugs before they leave today!!

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The kids I had were brothers. Their caregivers did nothing about the situation except inflame it. They only received therapy at my home-the caregivers refused to participate because they thought that what went on at home was no one else's business. The kids were in a chaotic environment (verbal and physical abuse) with no rules. The only time these kids were dealt with at home was to yell at them, hit them, or worse (things were bad). The therapy was starting to help with the oldest when the younger's behaviors started to escalate. After their therapist telling me for months to terminate care, I finally did when the youngest attacked a younger child at my home and hurt him. I was spit on, bitten, kicked, hit, had about $2000 in damages to my home, and was basically a basket case every day trying to find ways to manage these kids. I didn't want to give up because I felt like I was the ONLY person who cared about these kids' well-being. I finally realized that unless their caregivers are also working on the situation, it would never change. They have been through MANY childcares since they left me-some lasting only a few weeks. I feel sorry for those kids, and think about them all the time, but it was not worth dealing with them at all. The other kids are happier with them gone and so am I.

I just could not do it again, and I wouldn't suggest that anyone else do it, either. The kids I had just were not safe and did not belong in group care.

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I had 3 siblings that had ADHD and OCD here last year for 5 veeerrrryyy looooong months.

It got to the point that the rest of my families all threatened to pull their children if this family stayed. That's a lot of income to lose all at once.

The 3 kids were so horrible to everyone that they hated coming here and the show that was put on daily, at pick up time was out of this world.

I finally had to make the decision to term. she put her kids in a centre!!

I think you need to term him asap.

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Wow so many problems in these little minds. I don't understand how it gets so far. Obviously parents catering to them but has to be more than that. God help the school system when they enter there! Sorry you and the others have had bad experiences as well. I guess mine wasn't so bad after all but it was bad enough. I will be praying for these troubled kids tonight.

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You're not a behavioral specialist; you're a daycare provider. Please don't take this on yourself. He needs a one-on-one that is trained to deal with this.

Oh, and

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Oh he!! no way that child would ever be stepping foot in my house again. Not just the spitting but nobody calls me bi!@h in my own home. I've had 2 that did that(it wasn't the only thing they did but that was the proverbial straw)and they both got notice.
I hope you've calmed down a little since they left and can let it go. As I read all you wrote I could picture it in my head; all I could think was OMG that poor woman!!
Wish I could share my chocolate with you or something.
Tomorrow's Friday.

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...........
Just out of curiosity, what kinda chocolate?.....I may have to make a run to the store

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I had a child similar to this. He ended up kicking my dog so hard he broke his rib and gave him a concussion. I called mom and termed immediately. He had been here a month and I should have seen this coming. I won't go into too much detail but a boot thrown at my head wasn't fun. And then mom couldn't control him, not even to leave. One day she asked me "Miss, do you have a belt?" I was floored! You want me to give you a belt to hit your child! WTH!!!!
Hurting my dog was just the icing on the cake... It had all built up to this and I was done. Heaven forbid he had kicked a baby and broken his/her ribs!

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I will never understand why a parent has a child that is perfectly normal at home... who never shows an ounce of aggression... and when in public is a violent animal... why in the WORLD would you ALLOW him to be somewhere where you KNOW he is going to be violent?

There's NOTHING wrong with him at home under parental care... then keep him with you. It's abusive to put him in a situation where he is violent when he is an angel with you. He deserves to be where he is happy and well behaved... if that means living under a bridge thenso be it.

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amen!!

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I'm ok now. I was just in so much shock I wanted to cry. I have been hit before and cussed at before but they were either in an angry fit or a crying state and I was able to talk to them and it was short lived. This kid was just matter of fact calm like we were dicussing craft time or something. It came out of no where and just non stop. Now I'm just in disbelief over the Mother more than the child. Thanks for offering your chocolate that means a lot! lol

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Potter patter did you term this child??? It sounds like this child needs a nanny to stay at home with him or mom should stay at home. Group care is not appropriate for this child. The sooner Mom realizes this the better. He will not last more than a day or two in any other facility.

The best you can do is term. You now know the extent of this child's issues and to keep him would be irresponsible. If you keep him and he hurts another child you may be held liable.

This isn't easy. ((Hugs))

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I've worked with kids like this...the GOOD thing is, they can be reached. It just takes time, patience and the right team of people to do it. However, when I was working with them it was in a school setting. Lots of resources, lots of people to tag team, no babies/toddlers to try and juggle while doing it. There are pre-school/daycares etc that are capable of helping kids like this. I wonder if you know of any or could find them to suggest to mom? I have a soft spot for these types of kids honestly But trying to work with them, in my home, with no additional staff...no, I just can't do it.

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Yes, please tell us you termed effective immediately? Not for principle, but for safety and well-being! That boy needs help for his problems, and care that a home daycare is not capable of providing! to you again!

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I spoke with a behavior specialist in our resource center and he said it could just be him testing me and seeing how far he can push since it's a new environment. He said DCB probably tried to call my bluff when I threatened to call his Mom and send him home. And now that I have done so and the boy sees that I mean business he will learn from it.

He suggested I give the child another chance since this was his first problem and was so well behaved the other 2 1/2 days. I guess I should follow his guidelines since I asked. I thought he too would say term and it would all be noted right there in office records as well.

If DCB does start again I have a plan in place to call in a back up from down the street and be with the other kids while I deal with DCB in the front hall and wait for DCM to pick up. That way he has no contact with anyone and the others wont see his behavior. Luckily I have no infants, the youngest is 2. The specialist and I agreed on the 3 strikes you are out rule and void the 2 week notice. If he acts up next week DCM will then be given her final notice that 1 more strike you are out. If he acts up that quickly I'm sure the 3rd won't be too far behind.

I gave DCM a list of other centers and head start programs where he might be able to get specialized care. 1 right in the school he would be attending grade school but she said his Dr. advised her to place him in a small home child care group where he can have more one on one time. I would love to be able to talk to his Dr.

Thank you to everyone who helped me through my initial shock. I'm geared up and ready to win this war if he decides to battle again.

Sending a hope and prayer to God to get us through and if not then to at least bless the child and his next care provider(s).

Thanks again ladies!!

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Oh 1 more thing how do I term immediately? I have always given a 2 week notice in writing and vague on the reason but made sure DCM knew why. For something like this I think I would want it all written in black and white so what do I say how do I write and immediate term notice without all the details? I will need to know and have it ready because I really don't trust this boy now and betting it will be next week.

Thanks again!

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You’re in my prayers!

There is no way I would even risk putting myself, home and other children back into that scene.

Yes, I know you have a back up. Down the street, you still have to call, have a conversation and her get there to take over the other children in your care. I get pushing boundaries and testing. I think this is something else and it won’t stop. There would be NO 3 STRIKES, the next time is his last time.

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I cannot offer help with the immediate termination letter but I have to ask, why do you have to listen to your resource person?? I think it all depends on what is good for your childcare on the whole, AND for you! At the most, I'd give him 1 more chance and I'm not even sure about that. I've had challenging children but never as bad as the one you have.
I'm still shaking my head and going whoa at all the stuff he put you through.
Is there some behavioral resource that can come into your daycare and help him interact with the others? He needs one on one, IMO, to heck with any type of group care.

Hmm, thought I just edited my post but didn't find it. Ok anyways, does this child display behavior like this often? I know you've only had him 2 1/2 days but is it common for him? Is he on meds that could make him go off like that? Any allergies?

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That kid isn't worried one bit about you calling mom. When mom got there he was treated like a prince and got to go home to the world where he is a completely opposite angelic child.

The mom wants him in a home day care because she has found that the total time the provider will keep him is longer than when he is in a center. She wants to ride this as long as possible before she has to get someone else. The doctor doesn't do home child care or have to physically restrain him. He doesn't get spat on and called filthy names. Either does the worker.

If you need the money then do what you need to do. You are at serious risk for being alone with him. He could harm you, your kids, your property. If you have to intercede physically to restrain him you are putting your freedom and ability to raise your son at risk.

I wouldn't take a.thousand a week to have him in my care. He needs inpatient therapy where the adults are plentiful and have the training to take him down and force him into a safe locked area. They need to be able to put a face mask on him for spitting.

You haven't seen the tip of his violence. He gave you horrify by spitting. Next is throwing things over the stairs (super fun and exciting) and destroying your walls and windows. He's also going to attack you cuz he know no pain will come his way when he does.

When mom comes she will say "how did it make you feel when you couldn't throw the heater over the stairs?" And then take him home after she runs thru a drive thru to pick up something special for the boy that had a rough day.

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I just wanted to add that if you choose to term immediately, it is not your fault and you did not fail.

This is a dangerous and difficult situation. Maybe dcm will finally realize that she needs to get dcb the help he needs if you term.

I have a clause in my contract saying I can term at will. I have used it before by simply handing the parent a written letter saying services were terminated effective immediately (I stated current date) and listed numbers they can call to find alternative care. I would verbally tell them it wasn't a good fit, hand them (or mail them) their stuff and move on.

If you don't have that clause, you could still cancel immediately and cite the safety of the all the children involved and then take the hit financially if needed (refund unused days or whatever). Add that clause in your contract in the future.

He could without warning hurt one of the kids...then you'd have to explain that situation to the parents of that child. Keep in mind the person you talked to most likely has never done family child care nor have they ever dealt with that particular child and witnessed his behavior in your daycare.

I personally had a wild child like that in my care...he started out like an angel but after a day he was terrible. He once whipped a dirt clod point blank into my 2yo son's face and laughed. He pinched others to make them cry for fun. He dropped to the ground and screamed and kicked and smashed items if I told him no. He was almost 6.

When I would tell dcm about his behavior, she would tell him he was silly and then he would ask to go to McDonald's and she'd take him! I gathered that he was just as terrible at home but she would just give him whatever he wanted to keep him quiet. She even witnessed him try to push/kick his brother down the stairs and didn't try to stop him. I had to intervene and she got mad at me for reprimanding him and making him wait his turn to go down the stairs. She told me he was just being silly (he wasn't). He just would laugh whenever he hurt someone and would intentionally break the same rule multiple times a day every day.

I was going to term (I had the letter in hand) but the parents beat me to it because they were mad that I had enforced my policies so they termed and then never showed up for the remaining 2 weeks.

Looking back, I should have termed way sooner...that child had no self control and was randomly violent. It just didn't get better no matter how much I enforced the boundaries. He just kept testing me anyway.

Good luck and I hope whatever decision you make goes well for you!

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OK so, my take on ADHD/ADD; ODD....IT'S A DIAGNOSIS WAY OVERUSED!!!

First,
Did you get ANY documentation that this kid actually has it? Some kids are just plain old bad. Their parents and friends give them an excuse that they must have something wrong with them. They don't want to rock the boat so "assume" it's ADHD/ADD; ODD or something else, instead of correcting the real problem: Behaviors not controlled by firm discipline, love, redirection and a home where parents care about their children.

The problem is that parents and others want dcproviders to handle all their messes. OF COURSE Johnny is getting great feedback from home, where he can do no wrong because mom is giving in to him, rather than correcting him. If he truly has this condition, she needs to be even MORE firm and consistent with him. Which she should be doing even if he doesn't. It is UNACCEPTABLE for a child to abuse you this way and for his parents to allow and /or dismiss it.

I would let the kid go if behavior gets worse. SOMETIMES you can get a child to turn around. I have done this. But the child in question NEEDED a firm hand, and I'm that firm hand. His MOTHER was VERY cooperative and honest with me, and that really helped in him getting to be where he needed to be. He still had moments, far and few in between, but overall, with all of us working together, he was one of my best students. The thing is, this mom sounds like she's making up a lot of excuses, minimizing his behavior, and dismissing your concerns by saying "he's awesome at home" when truthfully, he's probably equally a terror, hence her giving in so much

Don't let her make you his next victim of abuse.

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I have a friend who has a 3 yo son diagnosed with autism and a bunch of other medical issues (can't remember them all but some are behavioral and others are life-threatening). She is a trained child therapist. So, at home he is indeed perfect. She has the environment to suit his physical and emotional needs and she knows the signs of an impending meltdown for him and can curb it before it happens to help prevent it from escalating.

He came here for a brief visit. Ds was playing with him while my friend and I talked. Neither ds nor I knew about the full extent of the child's situation until ds accidentally bumped the child's car out of the perfectly arranged line. The little boy who was playing very nicely with ds suddenly flipped out. He started screaming "I hate you," and then attempted to physically attack ds in a matter of seconds. My friend grabbed her child and held him there until she could calm him down. She apologized for not warning me and watching him closely and explained that if he is overstimulated and his organizational system is broken, he'll become violent. It is the reason why she rarely visits anyone. Ds never touched his line again and all was well after that but could you imagine his behavior at daycare if the provider didn't have this important information and the extra set of hands/eyes to handle his multiple behavioral concerns? My friend sends her son to preschool, but they have an extra person there to help him through his day as needed. He really is an intelligent and happy child but he would be very frustrated with a group daycare setting as we all know how mixed age groups can frustrate even the most patient preschooler...

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No way!!!!!

I'm sorry but a behavioral specialist that actually suggests you subject the other kids in your care to violence and aggression of that level AND that YOU should give the child another chance to physically assault you?!?!?

No flippin' way would I take that advice.

If I were a parent of the other kids in care, I'd pull my child in two seconds flat and not pay one single dime for a 2 week notice because the environment with that child there is NOT safe.

If a simple consequence like calling his mom (whom he CLEARLY has zero respect for or fear of) sets him off like that, I'd hate to see what happens when the wind blows south instead of north.

I am FLOORED that a behavioral specialist would actually utter those words when you are a GROUP care provider.

I'm sorry Pitter, I mean ZERO disrespect to you and my heart breaks that you had to even deal with any of that......

This is bigger than you can manage.

Even if you had immediate back up IN your home, it only takes one second for him to seriously hurt another child.

NOT something I could ever do.

(((hugs))) and prayers to you in whatever you decide to do.

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I don't have to listen to him but that's what he's there for. They suggest we call in and report/discuss situations when we have problem children so I did. They have helped in the past, once they even came in to monitor and things got better so I guess I was hoping for the same here. I just felt bad when he said something like " if everyone keeps giving up on this child at the 1st sight of a problem he will never get any better" My son has the same diagnosis and has come a long way but his was never this extreme my son never spit and rarely hit he was just defiant and bouncing off walls. I know I was grateful for the people that stood by him so I thought maybe I could help this one. We will see. I have thought about the 3 strikes deal and I think meeting the specialist half way and taking the kids back for 1 more try is better. So next time he does this he is out. I am working on a term letter now to be prepared.

As for his behavior the other 2 days... He ate his meals and put the dishes where I asked when done. He was fine at craft time, he worked nicely on his craft sharing materials. Circle time he loved because he likes music and even tried the dance moves with us. He was very interested in teh stories I read and sat nicely paying attention. The only time I had a problem was during the free play time when he shoved a child who kept following him too closing with the big cars. He pushed him another time when I had my back turned not sure why but that's pretty much it. The 3rd day he just had a melt down. He is not on any meds they don't want him on meds.

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DCF

This is letter is written notice of IMMEDIATE termination of your child care services.

At this time, I am unable to provide the care and intervention your child requires while maintaining a safe environment for the other children in care.

Please note, that ALL incidences of violence and aggression that occurred in care on October xx, 2014 has been documented and submitted to licensing.

DCB's belongings have been bagged up and are ready for pick up. A year end receipt for any monies paid to ABC Child Care will be mailed to you after the first of the year.

Sincerely

Provider

Personally, I would term immediately and not provide one single minute more on this.

Mom knows full well what her child is like in daycare and is simply hoping she finds someone that is willing to continue putting up with his bad behavior so that she can say if one person can manage him then it HAS to be everyone else's fault and not DCB's or hers.

Usually large chain centers will work a lot harder or ignore behaviors a lot longer than an in home provider or small center so I HIGHLY doubt that mom has not been aware of how bad DCB's behavior really is until now.

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Me too. Has that person ever worked in a program or is it "I went to school so I'm an expert?"

Sorry but no way would the child come back to my program. The parents are asking to operate in an unsafe manner IMHO. In my policies that is grounds for immediate termination. I hope the child gets all the help he needs, but I wouldn't have anything to do with them anymore.

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That was NOT fair!!!

Plus the PARENTS need to be the ones not giving up.....if they can't take the lead and be the forerunners in seeking help for this child, why is it YOUR responsibility?

I'm so sick of professionals that have never actually been hands on in a group care environment say words and phrases like that. I'm sick of them laying the guilt on us while they make the $ using words and you get nothing but spit on and breast with bruises from a preschooler!

How is that even okay?!?!

If the behavioral specialist doesn't want to give up in this kid then he/she can provide services for him.

Personally, I would report a behavioral specialist that actually suggested subjecting the other kids to violence and aggression like that.

If you truly want to help...you can definitely keep him and not give up in him but I guarantee you the other parents wont give one second of their time feeling bad or admirable towards you for putting their child(ren) at risk.

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I do worry about the other kids in care and I know you mean no disrespect I have always appreciated your advise. Thank you for giving it again. I just feel stuck in the middle like I will be making this kid worse by being just another person that dumps him at the 1st sign of distress. I was going to term but some of the things the specialist said made sense. I told him my concern for teh other children and thats when he suggested another person helping and I made the plan for the back up to come as soon as she gets my call. I just want to help EVERY child but I don't want any innocent ones hurt in the process. Sometimes this job is just too hard mentally. Thank you again!

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my fingers are shaking as I type....

I am so angry FOR you!!!!

I know you care and I know you don't want to fail but sometimes it in EVERYONE's best interest to not be that childs savior.

You can't help one child while allowing the possibility of ALL the others being harmed.

Saving one is NOT worth losing 5. (or however many you have)

...as well as any fall out from those 5 pissed off families....

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Pitter you have known the kid for a couple of days. He won't recognize you in a month. His care has nothing to do with your business unless you want it to.

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The specialist you spoke to just guilted you into making a decision that could not only cause extensive damages to your home and reputation, but also WILL affect the other children-their stress levels will go through the roof from witnessing this child's uncontrollable behavior. It's not fair to them-take it from someone who has been there.

This is NOT your problem to deal with, and to make you feel like you are "giving up" on this child was W.R.O.N.G. You are not a psychiatrist, and that is what this child needs. You won't be helping him by keeping him because you CAN'T help him. Only his parents and a good therapy/psychiatric team can. You are being used to hold him until you can't take it anymore, at which time the parents will move on the the next kind-hearted, unsuspecting childcare provider.

This is way more than most of us can handle. You can hold this child in your care for a while, but you can't help him.

I apologize that my writing style comes across sometimes as blunt, confrontational, or even cruel-that is not my intention. I'm just worried about you and the kids in your care. This child is NOT SAFE. I have been there, and it's no place to be. I, too, was guilted into caring for TWO kids like this. It affected my whole household, inside and outside of daycare hours. The other kids were completely stressed out and one was completely fearful. I was a wreck. I tried and tried, and had a therapist in my home for 4 hours a week. The therapist took months to convince me that the kids can not be helped in my home. There's not enough love in the world for you to help this kid-you're just delaying the inevitable.

ETA: I am guessing that this "specialist" that you spoke to is not a therapist or psychiatric professional. I believe that if you spoke to someone with experience dealing with kids like this, you'd get the same answers that we have given you. These answers are given from experience. The specialist probably gave you advice that would work with "normal" children. You're not dealing with a "normal" child, but one with serious psychiatric issues. The usual techniques just don't work with those kids.

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It's too late...he smacked a 2 year old, spit on a child and they all witnessed his violence and swearing. I'm seriously shocked you would even consider letting him come back. He needs one on one care. I would pull my child in a heartbeat if I knew you were letting him come back. You risk losing everything...Please reconsider for the sake of the other children in your care. I understand you have a need to help this child but that is his parents job, they need to get him the help that he needs. Your job is to keep the kids in your care safe and that won't happen if you keep this child.

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The guilt card...gotta love that. That should've never been said to you.
My heart goes out to you. This child needs to have a team working with him. He needs specially trained people and the one-on-one care that someone mentioned. Maybe what you have in your home fills his needs, maybe you are the answer to his problems, maybe just maybe it would work out. None of us know the outcome. My nerves would be too frazzled after what you've described and I'd be too stressed out fearing liability issues dealing with outbursts like that.
I don't know you but I am so so sorry you've got this over your head, this worry and guilt and wanting to do the right thing. I think most providers want to do the right thing, fix all kids whose lives aren't perfect, help everyone. But we have to realize our shortcomings and that we're only human. We can only do so much with what we have and have to keep in mind what's best for every person, including yourself. All the stress will flow over into your personal life and your family time.
I hope and pray, for you, that he can behave and learn and grow in your care but if he can't, PLEASE do NOT take the guilt trip for it.

As Nannyde mentioned, the child was able to go home, which in his eyes was not a bad thing. UNLESS discipline carried over with the dcp. I've almost called parents a couple times about taking their ds home but didn't because to the child, it's a win-win situation.

PitPat, I hope we aren't coming off as a bunch of snarly grumpy tellin'-ya-what-to-do providers but I think most of us are worried for you. We all know how challenging a good day of providing care can be; I couldn't imagine taking on the extra challenge of this child. HUGE HUGS to you!!!

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Boy do I remember that kind of thing! LOL

I remember a mom whose child did actually have autism. She never told me. We went to Safeway to let all the kids pick out ice cream bars (and mom even gave consent!) . BIGGEST MISTAKE OF HER LIFE because she was immediately termed. I had NO IDEA he could not be out in public. She used me as an experiment to see if he'd behave with someone else outside of the home, and I didn't like being lied to. She tried to deny something was wrong, but the behavior at Safeway was CLEAR autism. I recognized it right away because my friend's son has it pretty severe, and it was almost IDENTICAL to the way my friend's son acts when something becomes too difficult for him.

I was so mad. I could have helped had she not lied.

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Pitter, are you trying to keep him because you need the money? I don't mean if the money would be nice but if you NEED the money?

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I do need the money yes but, it doesn't have a bearing on the decision. I learned that lesson years ago with the help of you all when I had the sibling tots with all the diseases. No money is worth another childs safety. Him slapping the toddler is really bothering me the most. The spitting in my face also. I was just a frantic mess when I 1st posted and yes I am calmed down now but haven't forgotten. I was struggling with why he was so good for me for 2 whole days and just snapped, was it maybe a fluke? Could he be good again? Then the centers specialist had some good points, and the guilt didn't help. I don't think he guilted me on purpose he doesn't know them but he should choose his words better. After thinking about this over the past few days and reading everyones posts I have decided to term. These kids are like my own and it would break my heart if something did happen to them. I feel bad for the good little boy that I had for those 2 days but the bad seed that sprouted on Thursday just can not be trusted nor controlled. You all are right. I will direct her to the resource center maybe they have more ideas to assist her. I do have guilt over dropping him so quick but if one of my DCKs or my son or my dog got hurt the guilt would be much worse. So lesser of the evils I guess. Thank you again Nan and everyone!

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Oh Pitter I can explain why the first two days were good.

This is very common with mentally unstable kids and aggressive kids. Not so much under three years olds but older.

The first two.days everything is new. The toys are new, the excitement is new, the attention and promises from the mom that if he is good he gets special is new.

By day three the newness is gone. He has exhausted every avenue within your setting to scout what pleasures him.

By day three you start getting back to normal. You stop investing time into talking to him and introducing him to your world. Your voice changes to how you talk to the others. Your expectations now become that he is to remember the rules and abide by them.

He LOVES the newness. He LOVES how you talk to him to get him to like the place. He LOVES the promises mon made. He LOVES the new to him toys.

By day three he has had all the high end fun and attention he's going to get and he says NO to going into being one of the group. He goes ballistic so he forces you to give him the level of attention he got the first two days. He goes postal and he KNOWS mom.will have to cpme.get him.

He's been to this rodeo again and again. You are just another brick in the wall to him.

Bottom line... like the saying goes... visiting relatives are like fish... they go bad by the third day.

Aggressive little feral children are like fish... they go bad by the third day. The ONLY way he won't is if you set up his world like mon does where he gets everything he wants second to second so it is always new and special.

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It's not a fluke since he's been kicked out of every daycare he's been in. This kid has serious problems. NOTHING is going to be done by his mom until she probably gets sued because he hurts someone. It's NOT fair to the other children to be near that hot mess. When I worked in a head start, there was a child like this. Thankfully, you can get rid of him.

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Believe me, as Ive posted here, I've had this kid and worse. You are NOT helping him by keeping him. Your environment is not what he needs. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's that he needs help and your accepting him just enables mom to buy more time where his behavior is considered "normal" and she doesn't have to do anything about it.

All you're actually doing is putting the other children and yourself at risk. Because no way that was a one time thing. It was the season opener.

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Pitter I would like to offer you a free consult if you need extra help. I won't try to convince you to not keep the kid. That's your choice of course.

If you need me pm me and I will spend as much time.with you as you need.

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Thank you Nan I really appreciate it but I have decided to term. I am too worried about my DCKs safety. I won't be able to keep my eyes on him 100% of the time and it might only take a second for him to flip next time. And I agree there will be a next time it's just a matter of when because I will not cater to one childs wants. Thanks again for all the help!

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You've definitely made the right decision. Please keep up posted on how the term goes!

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I think the term will go well. I have a degree in special education. I have worked with a lot of students who are special needs. While a lot of parents are in denial, they know their child has issues. Mom will not fight this, especially as she admitted to you that he has been removed from other daycares.

I wonder if mom works. I ask, because it seems impossible to work a 40 hour week outside of the home if she's always picking him up/looking for new daycares.

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Agreed. You have to take into account the safety and physical/mental well-being of ALL the kids in your daycare, not just this one. I have a clause built into my contract that I reserve the right to term without notice in cases of extreme disrespect, failure to pay, or if a child or parent is posing a threat to myself or the other children. Never in million years would I accept this child back into my home.

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I was just thinking about you and your post. I am so glad you chose to term. When I was reading your post, I just kept thinking to myself 'what if you weren't able to control him until his mom came?' and it made my stomach hurt from worry about it.

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Well I guess if I had to I would sit on him lol
No seriously I had the same thoughts, my imagination ran wild with what if's so he won't be back. Thanks for thinking about me

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Yes she does work, in a professional field actually so she is needed and very upset when she has to leave work. It was one of the things we discussed in detail. I know she was angry with me because I called her to pick up but it's her own child's fault not mine. She sure as heck wouldn't allow her children to be in that environment so why should anyone elses.

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you're welcome!

I volunteered at my DDs kindergarten class and it's a mix of special needs and regular needs students. One of the little boys came up to me and gave me a hug. I told him thank you but you are not supposed to hug parent volunteers. I didn't know he was special needs. Well, out of the corner of my eye, I see the teacher stand up and make a fast walk to the phone to call someone. I think nothing of it, until the little boy turns around and comes to hug me again. this time it was super hard and almost knocked me off my feet! I couldn't get his arms off from around me and I kept calm just talking to him and about 5 seconds later, his special needs teacher walks in and tells him to let me go and go to her (he did). I realized at that moment that if I was ever to become a teacher at that school that I would have to start lifting weights!

The little boys strength was impressive. And he wasn't even angry!

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What Did Mom say when you termed her child??

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Nothing, she won't respond to email or phone. Guess that's that. Makes me kind of nervous though because I am used to a rant or pleading when I term a child which isn't often. I guess she saw it coming.

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This mom knew it was coming. It was obvious in her reaction to when you told her how dcg's tantrum went down. If that were me and you told me my child acted that way my jaw would hit the floor and my eyes would pop out of my head. I would apologize and send you some flowers or something out of guilt. It is so sad that this mom is even trying to send her child to a home daycare. She needs to get him help. He needs to be in a place that specializes in his issues.

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