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Unregistered 02:08 PM 11-16-2011
I have logged out..

I have taken on a new child and this will be his 3rd week. She is 3years old and is here 1/2 days 4 days a week. I knew going into this that it was going to be more difficult than the rest of the children in my care, but it is something that i can deal with.

Well today the child was not able to listen at all. I had to have her sit and play away from the other kids due to the fact that she was not listening to their words when they would ask her to stop causing complete chaos. Kids that have never hit anyone in the 3.5 years that they have been , hit her today.

the last time that I had to separate her from the group, she went into complete melt down and was kicking, screaming, throwing her body all over the place. NOrmally I just put them in a safe place and walk away, give them time to cool off, collect themselves and come back.

But this child was so out of control that there was no safe place to put her other than in a pack and play.

I have never in my life put a child of this age in a pack and play, but felt it was the safest thing to do... However, I am feeling horrible about this decision. I will tell the parents and I am worried what they will think and say about it..

Am I wrong for doing this? As I parent I don't think I would be happy to hear that someone put my child in a pack and play at age 3. But I was at a loss on how to keep everyone safe..

Please adivse.
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sharlan 02:12 PM 11-16-2011
Take a deep breath and relax. We all have bad days now and then.

I think by placing the child in the pack n play, you were not only protecting the other children, but her as well.

IMHO, it's harder and takes a lot longer for a part-time child to acclimate.
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Cat Herder 02:17 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
she went into complete melt down and was kicking, screaming, throwing her body all over the place. Please adivse.
I would have put her in one, too. It was to keep her from injuring herself or others.

I would approach it from the standpoint that she needs to not REQUIRE you to do that again. That is not acceptable behavior.

The Parents being mad I did that would not be my concern, YKWIM?
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mommiesherie 02:22 PM 11-16-2011
Don't feel bad. I would have done same. Nothing wrong with that at all. You were protecting her and the other children there as well. My goodness what is up with children with such bad behavior these days. Oh I know parents that don't teach them anything!!! I agree the parents being mad wouldn't worry me. Most parents that have children like that do have some sort of attitude when you tell them how their child behaved in my experience anyways.
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Country Kids 02:26 PM 11-16-2011
I do it all the time! In fact the parents are the ones that brought it and said please put the child in there until they can listen, behave, and calm down! This child is 3.5 and I figure if licensing has any problem with this I will call a meeting with them and the parents.
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Unregistered 02:32 PM 11-16-2011
Thanks ladies for responding...

I really do feel better about it. I think I am feeling defeated because I thought that I could handle this no problem.

The parents are actually really nice and sweet. I know that they won't be happy to hear that I had to do this, but they are always coming to me for advice about how to deal with things at home. They are very open, but I was just wondering if the PNP was the right thing to do.

Glad to know that I am not alone in doing this. This child looked like the devil took over their body...lol

Now to decide if I CAN really deal with this.... The thing is, is that she has such off and on days.... today was obviously an off day....lol
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nannyde 02:43 PM 11-16-2011
I think you are lucky she didn't climb right out of the pnp. I wouldn't consider that a safe place for her for too many more situations because she will most likely figure out within a few trips that all she has to do is leg lift and she can get out and start rageing again.

I definitely think you did the right thing... but PLEASE get a plan in place for the next explosion.
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Cat Herder 02:47 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
... but PLEASE get a plan in place for the next explosion.
I agree. THIS is what todays discussion should be about.

A discipline plan.

I added a couple tags to old threads that talk about them.
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Unregistered 02:52 PM 11-16-2011
what kind of plan would you impose on this type of situation?

I have never had to make a plan for such a child.....

Is it just me or is everyone starting to see even more out of control children these days???
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nannyde 03:04 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
what kind of plan would you impose on this type of situation?

I have never had to make a plan for such a child.....

Is it just me or is everyone starting to see even more out of control children these days???
It aint you sistah

If you are going to do child care you are going to have to plan for rage in babies, toddlers, and preschoolers and violence in toddlers and preschoolers.
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Cat Herder 03:04 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
what kind of plan would you impose on this type of situation?

I have never had to make a plan for such a child.....

Is it just me or is everyone starting to see even more out of control children these days???
It typically is a plan you and the parents come up with, together. (within reason)

My last one included removing child from the playroom entirely when a tantrum began and the parent picking up when a set time limit was met.

They followed up at home on their end.
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hoopinglady 03:17 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
It aint you sistah

If you are going to do child care you are going to have to plan for rage in babies, toddlers, and preschoolers and violence in toddlers and preschoolers.
Have you talked about this phenomenon, Nannyde...in terms of frequency and possible causes? I have a not quite two year old who was exhibiting rage (he's ok now) but it was very very disturbing to me at the time to see in such a young one.

With this little guy I actually dubbed myself the baby whisperer (this was before I came here, lol) because I would just do things like approach him and stand next to him or touch him in such a way that I was waiting for/encouraging his energy to change it totally reminded me of the dog whisperer. I just tried to get through to him, be strong and in control but not battle him or feed into it...allow him to feel safe.
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Unregistered 03:20 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
It typically is a plan you and the parents come up with, together. (within reason)

My last one included removing child from the playroom entirely when a tantrum began and the parent picking up when a set time limit was met.

They followed up at home on their end.

I thought about the call home time limit thing, but then thought to myself that will only show her that if she behaves so badly that she will eventually get that call home.

She will be rewarded with mommy or daddy picking her up??

Am I wrong on this?
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nannyde 03:25 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by hoopinglady:
Have you talked about this phenomenon, Nannyde...in terms of frequency and possible causes? I have a not quite two year old who was exhibiting rage (he's ok now) but it was very very disturbing to me at the time to see in such a young one.

With this little guy I actually dubbed myself the baby whisperer (this was before I came here, lol) because I would just do things like approach him and stand next to him or touch him in such a way that I was waiting for/encouraging his energy to change it totally reminded me of the dog whisperer. I just tried to get through to him, be strong and in control but not battle him or feed into it...allow him to feel safe.
You ARE the baby whisperer.

I can't tell you how much I dig this post.

would just do things like approach him and stand next to him or touch him in such a way that I was waiting for/encouraging his energy to change it totally reminded me of the dog whisperer. I just tried to get through to him, be strong and in control but not battle him or feed into it...allow him to feel safe.

Read this thread:

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...ighlight=storm
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Cat Herder 03:42 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I thought about the call home time limit thing, but then thought to myself that will only show her that if she behaves so badly that she will eventually get that call home.

She will be rewarded with mommy or daddy picking her up??

Am I wrong on this?
Not from my perspective.

I was not hired to raise their child, I never offered those services. I provide a safe, nurturing environment, in my home, for their child while they are at work.

If a child is exhibiting violent behaviors and disrupting every other child in care, then they can't stay.

It prevents me from HAVING the safe, nurturing environment that all the other parents pay me to offer to their children.

I hand it back over to the parent to discipline their child. It rarely takes more than a couple times, ever.

Honestly, in all my years, only one child has made me do it multiple times.
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hoopinglady 04:07 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
You ARE the baby whisperer.

I can't tell you how much I dig this post.

would just do things like approach him and stand next to him or touch him in such a way that I was waiting for/encouraging his energy to change it totally reminded me of the dog whisperer. I just tried to get through to him, be strong and in control but not battle him or feed into it...allow him to feel safe.

Read this thread:

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...ighlight=storm
Very interesting. I figured you'd have a theory on this.

Their mama is very young and has 3 babies under 5, recently divorced. Behavior-wise she is every bit the stereotypical modern parent in every way you listed.

I will say that the kids have responded very well to being here though.

edit: it took this kiddo forever (and he still struggles) to find interest in anything at all except for tormenting other kids. He feeds very strongly on their energy. If someone cries or throws a fit, he'd walk over and smack them.
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Kaddidle Care 04:28 PM 11-16-2011
Interesting - I just read the attached thread and article about the raging babies. I still feel that all the craziness and even autism is due to environmental factors, terrible food choices and the fact that so many women have dabbled in recreational drugs. You have your eggs from day one and they are affected by everything you do. Sad but true. There is also the divorce factor.

To the OP - without a game plan you did what you needed to do to keep the child from harming herself and others.

Time for a meeting with the Parents pronto to work this out.

Something an online friend does with her Autistic sons is when they get really stressed, she has a plastic container filled with beans and rice (uncooked) and they just put their hands in it and roll it around - it has a calming effect.

I haven't tried it myself but am tempted to suggest it where I work for one particular child who.. well let's just say doesn't react properly when told No or Not Now. All of us that have worked with him have been hit and kicked. There are times when he has to be removed from the room so he doesn't hurt others.
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emmajo 05:59 PM 11-16-2011
Something that scares me about this and Nan's linked post - does it follow that if young parents are not raising children well, neither will future day care providers be doing any better? Is this a whole society failure? This is not to find fault with any young providers on this forum, but a concern about the direction of child raising in general.
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Cat Herder 06:03 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by emmajo:
Something that scares me about this and Nan's linked post - does it follow that if young parents are not raising children well, neither will future day care providers be doing any better? Is this a whole society failure? This is not to find fault with any young providers on this forum, but a concern about the direction of child raising in general.
Sounds like the book "A Mothers Job, The History of Daycare."
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countrymom 06:06 PM 11-16-2011
you guys didn't answer the question, what is she going to do. I'm curious, because you said not to put her in a pnp, she can't be left in the corner, so what is she going to do, call the parents everytime the child has a melt down. I would be upset if I were her parents. I always say that, what happens at daycare, I will deal with it. I find it odd that after several hours when the parents pick the child up that they would deal with what happened at daycare, the child would have no idea what is going on. Happens at school too. So unless parents come right away, your defeating the purpose of calling them, and also like it was mentioned, the child will think its a treat to call mom or dad.
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mommiesherie 08:15 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by countrymom:
you guys didn't answer the question, what is she going to do. I'm curious, because you said not to put her in a pnp, she can't be left in the corner, so what is she going to do, call the parents everytime the child has a melt down. I would be upset if I were her parents. I always say that, what happens at daycare, I will deal with it. I find it odd that after several hours when the parents pick the child up that they would deal with what happened at daycare, the child would have no idea what is going on. Happens at school too. So unless parents come right away, your defeating the purpose of calling them, and also like it was mentioned, the child will think its a treat to call mom or dad.
I agree that calling parents kinda gives her a treat. Like rewarding her behavior. On the other hand you do have to think about the other kids and how this affects them. Hum this is a hard one. I have no idea what to do as far as a game plan on this. Even my psychomotor development class didn't cover this one. Lol. I am interested to hear what others suggest. I didn't read article yet but it is disturbing to me the lack of parenting that is done these days. Its not a day cares job to parent but that is certainly the way its beginning to be.
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Cat Herder 08:38 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by countrymom:
you guys didn't answer the question, what is she going to do. I'm curious, because you said not to put her in a pnp, she can't be left in the corner, so what is she going to do, call the parents everytime the child has a melt down. I would be upset if I were her parents. I always say that, what happens at daycare, I will deal with it. I find it odd that after several hours when the parents pick the child up that they would deal with what happened at daycare, the child would have no idea what is going on. Happens at school too. So unless parents come right away, your defeating the purpose of calling them, and also like it was mentioned, the child will think its a treat to call mom or dad.
I think she was told that putting her in a PNP will not work for long, not to not try it at all.

The child will escalate to climbing out, rocking it back and forth, tearing the mesh or flipping it over. It is a pattern. Continuous as the day is long...

Without a consistent discipline plan to stop the escalation it will continue to get more and more violent. Each childs plan will have to be individualized to the child.

For many years I tried to do all the hard work myself, but eventually it was time to hand the reins back, YKWIM? My clients understand and agree to this during enrollment.

HUGE tantrums that include kicking, rolling around, screaming, spitting, destroying property, throwing things or other violent behaviors are just not tolerated here. I think everyone has their limitations.

I go YEARS here without a tantrum. IMHO, It is not as common as some are inclined to believe.
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hoopinglady 08:39 PM 11-16-2011
treat it like any tantrum. I use my hallway. If they are 3 and screaming really loudly, I will place them just outside the kitchen door in my mudroom where our cubbies are. I can still supervise but they are out of the group and the screaming isn't so nerve wracking with the door barrier.

If they are starting to be disruptive but not out of control I send to another room or another part of the room to play alone. I explain that if they can't play nicely than they can't play with the group. Often they will find something to do. If they are set on throwing a fit and refuse to do as told, back to the hallway, no playing, etc.

as calm as possible, matter of fact, don't engage and don't argue, don't over explain.

Parents are tricky because if they don't "get it" there isn't a lot you can do except for control the way things go down at your house. When I mentioned to my dcm about her toddler's anger she said, "I just laugh at him".

If they are truly willing to listen to your advice then everyone has to get strong, firm and consistent. It's hard and continuous.

It's difficult to say unless we see the child and know more about their family life and your house.

Does she have plenty to do? Does she have opportunities to express herself? Is she rested, hungry, in pain, frustrated. Does she have somewhere quiet to go if she needs? Is she being taught and demonstrated the proper words? Is she being empowered so she know that no means no for herself as well as her friends? Is she getting plenty of time to run and exercise outside preferably?

There's no easy answer.

Good luck, whatever happens.
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hoopinglady 08:41 PM 11-16-2011
darn it catherder, another book for my wish list. I read the review for this one, yesterday, looks really fascinating.
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Cat Herder 09:05 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by hoopinglady:
darn it catherder, another book for my wish list. I read the review for this one, yesterday, looks really fascinating.
Eh, I guess it is fair... Now I want "Fragile Families, Fragile Solutions" from your link above....

I AM ordering that one Friday....
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daycare 09:14 PM 11-16-2011
Originally Posted by mommiesherie:
I agree that calling parents kinda gives her a treat. Like rewarding her behavior. On the other hand you do have to think about the other kids and how this affects them. Hum this is a hard one. I have no idea what to do as far as a game plan on this. Even my psychomotor development class didn't cover this one. Lol. I am interested to hear what others suggest. I didn't read article yet but it is disturbing to me the lack of parenting that is done these days. Its not a day cares job to parent but that is certainly the way its beginning to be.
I cannot agree more..

Especially the part: " Its not a day cares job to parent but that is certainly the way its beginning to be."

I just ended a long time relationship with a family that took ZERO part in parenting thier children. They eventually went from a few hours at my house to 11+ hour days, eating every meal here with me.

It then went to whatever behavioral issues the children had out of daycare was my fault and my problem.

When I had confronted that parent about it, they basically told me that they have no control over their kids and that being a parent it too stressful. they just cant take it anymore and need me to do it.............I sat there floored for awhile, but realized that she had let her lack of parenting go on for so long that now she could not take it anymore so she had to have someone else deal with her kids. It was one of the saddest days in my daycare life. These people kept on having kids, but were sitting in my face telling me that they wanted NO part of being a parent to them.........


As soon as I found out that mom was sitting at home with her feet up eating chips and drinking soda, while I delt with her kids until 7-7:30 at night I termed. I told her sorry, I am not their parent you are. And (thank you Nannyde for this line) you will never get good at parenting if I keep doing it for you. YOu have to start doing it to get good at it.

GOod-bye to this family...........I am sad for the children, but I am hoping that she was not able to find another provider to send her kids to for every meal and for that many hours. They so bad just wanted to be with their mom and dad.
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mommiesherie 09:34 PM 11-16-2011
Daycare, wow that is horrible!!!!! I can't imagine asking someone else to parent my child!! Why in the world have them?!?! Seroiusly! I mean the free clinic will give ya the pill or condoms lady. I know it had to be hard but I do not blame you at all for terminating them. If she is at home eating bon bons and you are getting the blame for behaviors. The thing she doesn't realize is their behavior would probably be much better if she would just love them and give them a little quality time. I didn't spank my children. I simply spent a lot of time with them and we talked a lot. I taught them kindness and self control. I had an uncle give me a hard time about not spanking them. Then we went for a visit to his house for a week. After the week was almost over he said ya know I thought since you don't spank the girls they would be terrible. He said they are the most well behaved polite children I have ever seen in my life. I explained to him that the reason is because I spent so much time with them and you don't have to spank them. Just teaching them kindness and showing them how to be kind to others would do it. Quality time with your children can shape them into quality members of society. I feel bad for many children that do not get any guidance.
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hoopinglady 05:55 AM 11-17-2011
On one of my families' child info sheet upon enrollment, she listed the reason for leaving the previous child care as she didn't agree with the way the children were "being raised".

Now maybe it was just a poor choice of words but to me it sounded like, I'm paying you a few hundred bucks a month to raise my children.

No pressure, ladies.
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Kaddidle Care 06:18 AM 11-17-2011
Originally Posted by daycare:
GOod-bye to this family...........I am sad for the children, but I am hoping that she was not able to find another provider to send her kids to for every meal and for that many hours. They so bad just wanted to be with their mom and dad.
How very sad indeed. But unfortunately, she'll find another care provider - or maybe two to do what you did so long as she can afford it.

I had a co-worker that was appalled that I was planning to stay home with my child until School Age. She told me "Oh I could never do that!" She didn't have the time, patience or understanding to raise her children, clip coupons and not buy the highest fashion to wear. Material things came first, her job, her money and last on the list were her kids. They were an accessory much like a bracelet.

She would complain that she had to spank her son to get him up in the morning so she could bring him to Daycare. Obviously she either wasn't getting him to bed at a proper hour or he hated his Daycare. She didn't care because she was too wrapped up in her little world.

Never liked that girl. Wonder why.
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Cat Herder 06:20 AM 11-17-2011
Originally Posted by hoopinglady:
On one of my families' child info sheet upon enrollment, she listed the reason for leaving the previous child care as she didn't agree with the way the children were "being raised".

Now maybe it was just a poor choice of words but to me it sounded like, I'm paying you a few hundred bucks a month to raise my children.

No pressure, ladies.
Oh... this NEEDS to be a thread topic.
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countrymom 08:00 AM 11-17-2011
sometimes I feel like I raise these kids, because I have children who would rather be at my house then their own.
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Tags:3 years old, consistency, discipline - notifying parent, discipline plan, won't listen
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