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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Mom Rewards Bad Behavior! Frustrating!!
small_steps 06:21 AM 06-12-2014
This past week one of the kids has been awful! He's been spitting at me, screaming at me and throwing toys at me.
He's always been a handful but he's never done this. I really can't afford to term right now. I went from being almost full (11) to having only 8 kids and 2 more are leaving first week in July. That's hurting my income really bad. However, I will not put up with this kind of behavior for long. The kid is almost 3 and when I put him in time out he just sits there screams and spits from time out. Doesn't seem to affect him in any way.
Brother is 5 and he's ok most of the time but if he has to go to time out for anything he screams and kicks and throws an all out temper tantrum. Yesterday mom told them if they were good they would get snow cones. I told her that the little one had a bad day. Told her what he did. She said she was sorry and that he had been doing that at home also. Ok fast forward to this morning and guess who got snow cones yesterday?! Yep! Why the heck would you reward such bad behavior? It makes me want to term even more because no matter how sorry she is I know that I have no help with their behavior when it comes to her.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 06:27 AM 06-12-2014
I would put that child on a behavior plan, ESPECIALLY since Mom is doing nothing to work with you on the behavior.

The first behavior plan I implement always outlines that they have, typically, 3 times of bad behavior and then they are suspended for 2 full school days. Upon returning from the suspension, if the behavior comes back the contract is terminated. No refunds. This is valid for a full month.

If I have to implement a second behavior plan down the road (say, they pass that first month) which I have only done once...it was one strike and the contract is terminated. That child, on the second behavior plan, is still currently here. The other child who had a behavior plan had his contract terminated here.

If you private message me your e-mail address I can e-mail you what I use.
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small_steps 06:34 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
I would put that child on a behavior plan, ESPECIALLY since Mom is doing nothing to work with you on the behavior.

The first behavior plan I implement always outlines that they have, typically, 3 times of bad behavior and then they are suspended for 2 full school days. Upon returning from the suspension, if the behavior comes back the contract is terminated. No refunds. This is valid for a full month.

If I have to implement a second behavior plan down the road (say, they pass that first month) which I have only done once...it was one strike and the contract is terminated. That child, on the second behavior plan, is still currently here. The other child who had a behavior plan had his contract terminated here.
What would you suggest? I haven't had discipline problems that I couldn't handle in a while. I've been extremely consistent with him. And I don't let any of the spitting or anything slide. As soon as he does it he goes straight to time out. No warnings anymore because he knows better. I've tried separating him from the group cause he has been mean to friends this week. I'm running out of ideas.
I use a clothespin behavior method. If their clothespin stays on all day they get a treat. The first couple weeks we gave treats often so they would realize what they were getting it for. He doesn't leave his own at all. Basically doesn't participate. I'm not sure what else I can try but a fresh idea would be great if anyone can think of something to try.
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Blackcat31 06:35 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by small_steps:
This past week one of the kids has been awful! He's been spitting at me, screaming at me and throwing toys at me.
He's always been a handful but he's never done this. I really can't afford to term right now. I went from being almost full (11) to having only 8 kids and 2 more are leaving first week in July. That's hurting my income really bad. However, I will not put up with this kind of behavior for long. The kid is almost 3 and when I put him in time out he just sits there screams and spits from time out. Doesn't seem to affect him in any way.
Brother is 5 and he's ok most of the time but if he has to go to time out for anything he screams and kicks and throws an all out temper tantrum. Yesterday mom told them if they were good they would get snow cones. I told her that the little one had a bad day. Told her what he did. She said she was sorry and that he had been doing that at home also. Ok fast forward to this morning and guess who got snow cones yesterday?! Yep! Why the heck would you reward such bad behavior? It makes me want to term even more because no matter how sorry she is I know that I have no help with their behavior when it comes to her.
Aside from mom having some sort of epiphany and stepping up, you are imprisoned by your own financial needs.

The only suggestion I have is to try and find another method of discipline as TO is not working. Maybe have the child play by himself or be your shadow.

It's clear mom isn't going to do anything so you have two choices...figure out how to manage his behavior while at your house (without mom's input) or term them.

My guess is that if the spitting, kicking and hitting continue you are going to lose other families because no one wants their child seeing that or picking up those negative behaviors.

Can you explain the scenario BEFORE DCB gets in trouble... what happened to send him to time out? Does he spit then or is it the spitting that is getting him sent to TO?

Does he kick and hit others or just you?
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coolconfidentme 06:36 AM 06-12-2014
Maybe I'm different, but if a DCK is screaming to scream I tell them the TO starts when they are done screaming. If this method doesn't work. I have them go sit in the hallway to Scream It Out. This is away from visually seeing the group. When the screaming stops, they can come back & take the TO. I remind them that their choice to scream put them in the hallway. If they don't want to go there then don't scream.
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Meyou 06:38 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
I would put that child on a behavior plan, ESPECIALLY since Mom is doing nothing to work with you on the behavior.

The first behavior plan I implement always outlines that they have, typically, 3 times of bad behavior and then they are suspended for 2 full school days. Upon returning from the suspension, if the behavior comes back the contract is terminated. No refunds. This is valid for a full month.

If I have to implement a second behavior plan down the road (say, they pass that first month) which I have only done once...it was one strike and the contract is terminated. That child, on the second behavior plan, is still currently here. The other child who had a behavior plan had his contract terminated here.
Yep, make it Mom's problem. She'll never be on board with being consistent if it doesn't affect her directly. Losing her childcare will probably be a huge incentive for her to get her act together.

I had a boy that was throwing rocks last summer. Long term client and we "talked" about it for 7 weeks. They "tried" to talk to him, threaten him, bribe him or so they said during this whole time but the throwing rocks and excuses continued all summer. Until the day I gave them a final written warning about his behavior and stated I would term immediately with no notice the next time he threw a rock or anything else in my home. He never threw a rock again. He didn't even pick up a rock to play with for months. I suffered all summer listening to Mom and Dad's WORDS for no reason. I will never, ever let anything go that long again. Now the words mean NOTHING to me unless I see actions behind the words.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 06:41 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by small_steps:
What would you suggest? I haven't had discipline problems that I couldn't handle in a while. I've been extremely consistent with him. And I don't let any of the spitting or anything slide. As soon as he does it he goes straight to time out. No warnings anymore because he knows better. I've tried separating him from the group cause he has been mean to friends this week. I'm running out of ideas.
I use a clothespin behavior method. If their clothespin stays on all day they get a treat. The first couple weeks we gave treats often so they would realize what they were getting it for. He doesn't leave his own at all. Basically doesn't participate. I'm not sure what else I can try but a fresh idea would be great if anyone can think of something to try.
I don't do things like clothespins or stoplights. I feel like it highlights the bad behavior and shows EVERYONE how their day was. I am just not good with that. Plus, you are saying he is nearly 2. He will not grasp that concept AT ALL.

Talks from Mom and Dad are a must. I have ONLY had any changes in behavior when we are BOTH on the same team...reinforcing that we use our words, spit stays in our mouth, hands are for hugging NOT pushing, etc. etc. etc.
When children throw fits here I look at them and say in a monotone type voice, "No tantrums. Tantrums hurt our ears." and then move them to a spot where it seems like no one can hear them. I have only had one child, 2, tantrum more than a handful of times but her brother was the one who got expelled so there ya go. It had much more to do with that family than it had to do with anything else.

PM me your email address and I will email you my behavior plan I use. It puts the responsibility for really bad behavior back on the parent.
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Blackcat31 06:48 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by Meyou:
Yep, make it Mom's problem. She'll never be on board with being consistent if it doesn't affect her directly. Losing her childcare will probably be a huge incentive for her to get her act together.
.
OP said she can't afford to term...

So I don't think that is an option for her.

That was my first thought too....make it mom's issue but when someone can't term it usually doesn't work very well and just turns into more trouble..kwim?
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Meyou 06:50 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
OP said she can't afford to term...

So I don't think that is an option for her.

That was my first thought too....make it mom's issue but when someone can't term it usually doesn't work very well and just turns into more trouble..kwim?
I type slow and posted that when there was only one reply to the thread.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 06:51 AM 06-12-2014
I get that she can't afford to term ... but I feel very badly for her that she is essentially trapped into dealing with bad behavior. I don't honestly know that she can change it without getting Mom on board.

All you can really do is make the kid shadow you.
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small_steps 07:02 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
OP said she can't afford to term...

So I don't think that is an option for her.

That was my first thought too....make it mom's issue but when someone can't term it usually doesn't work very well and just turns into more trouble..kwim?
I really can't afford to term but I also can't tolerate that behavior much longer. In the end I would rather struggle for a month or two financially because this is getting me to the point where I get burnt out and don't want to even work in this field! I would love to not have to do that but I know in the end my sanity has to be what matters. Also, I have an interview tonight. If I get that one it wouldn't be too bad to lose the two siblings. It would be an income loss but not as great as if I just had to term and brought no others on board.

It's so hard to explain what makes him do this. The older brother throws tantrums when he goes to TO for even a minor reason. Say he's ugly to a friend with his words and gets sent to TO. He makes it worse by kicking and crying and screaming for mom. He's almost 6! But he doesn't throw things or spit so I just let him sit in TO until he calms down. If he'd just go sit in TO and get it over with he wohld be done in no time. He hasn't gotten that part down yet.

Also the other one is almost 3, not 2...sorry if I had a typo in the op. I have 3 others his age that do get the clothespin cocept for the most part. They get upset if I threaten to take there's when they're acting out. What mainly gets him started with his fits is minor things. If he tries to take a toy from someone and I ask him to give it back and redirect him to something else he will just fall out on the floor, tell me no, spit and scream. Most of the time whatever I'm asking him to do isn't that big of a deal but he has a fit over even being told he can't do what he's wanting to. Or if I get on to him for getting out of his seat at breakfast, or really just anything that's not what he wants to do.
Very similar to how the older brother acts when he gets in trouble but older boy isn't as extreme.
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small_steps 07:05 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist:
I get that she can't afford to term ... but I feel very badly for her that she is essentially trapped into dealing with bad behavior. I don't honestly know that she can change it without getting Mom on board.

All you can really do is make the kid shadow you.
The mom doesn't know I really can't afford to term. Maybe it will give her incentive to get it together. I will pm my email. I would love a copy of what behavior plan you use.
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Blackcat31 07:10 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by small_steps:
I really can't afford to term but I also can't tolerate that behavior much longer. In the end I would rather struggle for a month or two financially because this is getting me to the point where I get burnt out and don't want to even work in this field! I would love to not have to do that but I know in the end my sanity has to be what matters. Also, I have an interview tonight. If I get that one it wouldn't be too bad to lose the two siblings. It would be an income loss but not as great as if I just had to term and brought no others on board.

It's so hard to explain what makes him do this. The older brother throws tantrums when he goes to TO for even a minor reason. Say he's ugly to a friend with his words and gets sent to TO. He makes it worse by kicking and crying and screaming for mom. He's almost 6! But he doesn't throw things or spit so I just let him sit in TO until he calms down. If he'd just go sit in TO and get it over with he wohld be done in no time. He hasn't gotten that part down yet.

Also the other one is almost 3, not 2...sorry if I had a typo in the op. I have 3 others his age that do get the clothespin cocept for the most part. They get upset if I threaten to take there's when they're acting out. What mainly gets him started with his fits is minor things. If he tries to take a toy from someone and I ask him to give it back and redirect him to something else he will just fall out on the floor, tell me no, spit and scream. Most of the time whatever I'm asking him to do isn't that big of a deal but he has a fit over even being told he can't do what he's wanting to. Or if I get on to him for getting out of his seat at breakfast, or really just anything that's not what he wants to do.
Very similar to how the older brother acts when he gets in trouble but older boy isn't as extreme.
Sounds like this is definitely learned behavior.

They don't get what they want so they tantrum...mom gives in.

They are trying to do that with you too... but since you aren't giving in, the tantrums/fits are escalating.

Maybe have them play together alone. Tell them they have to earn the right to play with the others. Once they can play nicely with each other or alone for a period of time, tell them you are going to allow them to go play with the other children but if they fight or get ugly, they WILL be removed from the group. Tell them the consequence BEFORE hand. Let them know if they comply with the consequence without screaming or hitting/kicking/spitting, you will allow them another chance to play with their playmates after TO,

If they don't take the TO well, they are removed from the group for the day.

ONE chance PER day little steps at a time.

If they get violent or aggressive call mom for immediate pick up.

If they aren't aggressive but scream, they go straight to nap.

Rinse and repeat. FIRMLY each and every time.

I am praying you get this family tonight so you can be done with this...
Mom has a hard lesson coming her way....if not from you now, it will happen.

Is she a single mom by chance?
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small_steps 07:17 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Sounds like this is definitely learned behavior.

They don't get what they want so they tantrum...mom gives in.

They are trying to do that with you too... but since you aren't giving in, the tantrums/fits are escalating.

Maybe have them play together alone. Tell them they have to earn the right to play with the others. Once they can play nicely with each other or alone for a period of time, tell them you are going to allow them to go play with the other children but if they fight or get ugly, they WILL be removed from the group. Tell them the consequence BEFORE hand. Let them know if they comply with the consequence without screaming or hitting/kicking/spitting, you will allow them another chance to play with their playmates after TO,

If they don't take the TO well, they are removed from the group for the day.

ONE chance PER day little steps at a time.

If they get violent or aggressive call mom for immediate pick up.

If they aren't aggressive but scream, they go straight to nap.

Rinse and repeat. FIRMLY each and every time.

I am praying you get this family tonight so you can be done with this...
Mom has a hard lesson coming her way....if not from you now, it will happen.

Is she a single mom by chance?
No she isn't a single mom BUT I just download an app called mobile patrol and could see who in our area is in jail at the time...and I noticed dad spent the weekend there which could explain the change in behavior from last week (it aS much worse than last week or prior to that). I didn't download it to see if he was there I just downloaded it because One of my friends mentioned it on Facebook and happened to see his face on there. It doesn't say what he was in there for. It looks like he spends weekends there maybe? To pay off fines or something I guess or some sort of work release.

I'm a single mom and I don't even let my own kids act like that or even close to that..they know better...so it infuriates me when someone else's talks to me or acts like that to me. My kids would have a rude awakening if their teacher called me and said they were behaving like that.
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Blackcat31 07:24 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by small_steps:
No she isn't a single mom BUT I just download an app called mobile patrol and could see who in our area is in jail at the time...and I noticed dad spent the weekend there which could explain the change in behavior from last week (it aS much worse than last week or prior to that). I didn't download it to see if he was there I just downloaded it because One of my friends mentioned it on Facebook and happened to see his face on there. It doesn't say what he was in there for. It looks like he spends weekends there maybe? To pay off fines or something I guess or some sort of work release.

I'm a single mom and I don't even let my own kids act like that or even close to that..they know better...so it infuriates me when someone else's talks to me or acts like that to me. My kids would have a rude awakening if their teacher called me and said they were behaving like that.
You are right, they could be exhibiting fall out from what is going on at home.

Have you tried to talk with them at all? Maybe just a little reassurance about your place being a calm and accepting place for them and maybe talk a bit about how their tantrums are working for them (or rather not working)?

The older child seems old enough that he would be able to have a perspective conversation with you about how his behavior makes you and the other kids (as well as himself) feel...

Sometimes that discussion means a lot to a child and can sway their behaviors if they know you care and are trying to do what is best for them.

I am betting mom is probably "making up" for dad not being present ...unless she is just one of those mom's who is just clueless about how positive reinforcement works.

fwiw~ I didn't mean to imply single moms are lenient moms as I have several single moms in care who run their house with a firm hand... I was asking because alot of times that is the first excuse a parent will give for their child's bad behavior rather than accepting responsibility for their role in it.
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Blackcat31 07:25 AM 06-12-2014
Oh, and I check out those jail sites and criminal history look up places ALL the time.

It's always amazing what you learn on them.
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SquirrellyMama 08:14 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by small_steps:
The mom doesn't know I really can't afford to term. Maybe it will give her incentive to get it together. I will pm my email. I would love a copy of what behavior plan you use.
This could backfire on you if you really aren't prepared to term. I wouldn't make any empty threats.

I'm really sorry you have to deal with this. I have no suggestions for you except I would have mom not make deals with the kids about daycare behavior and rewards at home. I don't think a 2 year old can grasp that concept well, and 8 to 10 hours is a long day for a kid.

Kelly
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small_steps 08:39 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
You are right, they could be exhibiting fall out from what is going on at home.

Have you tried to talk with them at all? Maybe just a little reassurance about your place being a calm and accepting place for them and maybe talk a bit about how their tantrums are working for them (or rather not working)?

The older child seems old enough that he would be able to have a perspective conversation with you about how his behavior makes you and the other kids (as well as himself) feel...

Sometimes that discussion means a lot to a child and can sway their behaviors if they know you care and are trying to do what is best for them.

I am betting mom is probably "making up" for dad not being present ...unless she is just one of those mom's who is just clueless about how positive reinforcement works.

fwiw~ I didn't mean to imply single moms are lenient moms as I have several single moms in care who run their house with a firm hand... I was asking because alot of times that is the first excuse a parent will give for their child's bad behavior rather than accepting responsibility for their role in it.
I know you didn't mean that about single moms :-)
I just have no tolerance for parents using that excuse and I've seen it many times unfortunately.
Today I have them playing separately today and told them when they can behave and play nicely alone then they can play with friends. So far so good. He screamed this morning because he tried to bite a friend for standing in his way and went to time out. I made him lay on his mat until he stopped the fit. Then he got to go eat breakfast alone because the other children were already done. We will see how the rest of the day goes.
Also, just scheduled another interview for tomorrow evening so that's two this week! Hoping they go well!
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small_steps 08:58 AM 06-12-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
You are right, they could be exhibiting fall out from what is going on at home.

Have you tried to talk with them at all? Maybe just a little reassurance about your place being a calm and accepting place for them and maybe talk a bit about how their tantrums are working for them (or rather not working)?

The older child seems old enough that he would be able to have a perspective conversation with you about how his behavior makes you and the other kids (as well as himself) feel...

Sometimes that discussion means a lot to a child and can sway their behaviors if they know you care and are trying to do what is best for them.

I am betting mom is probably "making up" for dad not being present ...unless she is just one of those mom's who is just clueless about how positive reinforcement works.

fwiw~ I didn't mean to imply single moms are lenient moms as I have several single moms in care who run their house with a firm hand... I was asking because alot of times that is the first excuse a parent will give for their child's bad behavior rather than accepting responsibility for their role in it.
I know you didn't mean that about single moms :-)
I just have no tolerance for single parents using that excuse and I've seen it many times unfortunately.
Today I have them playing separately today and told them when they can behave and play nicely alone then they can play with friends. So far so good. He screamed this morning because he tried to bite a friend for standing in his way and went to time out. I made him lay on his mat until he stopped the fit. Then he got to go eat breakfast alone because the other children were already done. We will see how the rest of the day goes.
Also, just scheduled another interview for tomorrow evening so that's two this week! Hoping they go well!
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small_steps 01:23 PM 06-13-2014
No real changes today or yesterday unfortunately. When he acted up I took him straight to TO or to his mat and it didn't really seem to phase him. Today a parent picked up during nap and he started screaming that he wanted his mommy while this other parent was still here of course. So embarrassing not to mention he woke up 2 other kids. His brother also did the same thing today. I got onto him at lunch for messing with his friends water bottle and he yelled no to me. He's almost 6! I made him go to nap early where he also proceeded to scream and cry for his mom. This is just getting ridiculous. I am probably going to have to term.
I had an interview last night. That child starts Monday. I have another interview today and if that goes well I will probably give notice next week. This made my entire week horrible and made me not appreciate my job very much. And I don't want to get anymore burnt out than I already am.
:-(
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Blackcat31 01:27 PM 06-13-2014
Originally Posted by small_steps:
No real changes today or yesterday unfortunately. When he acted up I took him straight to TO or to his mat and it didn't really seem to phase him. Today a parent picked up during nap and he started screaming that he wanted his mommy while this other parent was still here of course. So embarrassing not to mention he woke up 2 other kids. His brother also did the same thing today. I got onto him at lunch for messing with his friends water bottle and he yelled no to me. He's almost 6! I made him go to nap early where he also proceeded to scream and cry for his mom. This is just getting ridiculous. I am probably going to have to term.
I had an interview last night. That child starts Monday. I have another interview today and if that goes well I will probably give notice next week. This made my entire week horrible and made me not appreciate my job very much. And I don't want to get anymore burnt out than I already am.
:-(
Congrats on the new kid!

If you get this next interview....don't wait to term.

Do it immediately. NO WAY would I put up with that for another 2 weeks if I didn't have to.
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KiddieCahoots 01:29 PM 06-13-2014
Fingers crossed for a fantastic interview today! ....
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