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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Ok, My Problem dcb Has a Diagnosis
sahm2three 10:21 PM 06-19-2010
The infamous "How long can you put a child in time out" boy, he has a diagnosis. I haven't read about it yet, but am going to do that soon. He was diagnosed with ODD, or Oppositional Defiant Disorder as well as ADD. I am just torn as to what to do. He can be a very sweet boy, and seems sad (at least I get that vibe). I do agree with whomever said that the pattern of him being termed may be making matters worse. I know I can't fix him, but I don't want to make the situation worse for him either. I think I will just have to start him with a clean slate each morning, but the first time he hurts someone I will just have to remove him. I hate to put the other kids in harms way. Maybe I just keep both eyes right on him and intervene before anyone gets hurt. That will be difficult because I do have other kids, including an infant and 18 month old. I just don't want to give up on the kid. I hope no one thinks I am evil. I didn't keep him with his nose in the corner for 45 minutes. I had him sitting quietly for a good 10 to 15 minutes until he calmed down enough for us to talk and then I had him just hanging out with me as we talked for the rest of the 45 minutes. I didn't berate him. And during the infamous 45 minutes, I talked to the mother. And the mother talked to dcb. Not that I owe anyone an explanation. At school they use a Time Out room and for offenses that would come even close to the offenses he has committed here he would have been in the Time Out room for the rest of the day! In a cubicle with nothing to do but homework or reading.
So....not really sure what I am going to do, but thought I would fill you all in.
So....not really sure what I am going to do, but thought I would fill you all in.
fctjc1979 06:49 AM 06-20-2010
I looked ODD up on line and looked at several different sites. Most of the sites talk about choosing your battles, focusing on the positive, positive reinforcement, and offering logical choices. They also talk about symptoms as being tatrums, lashing out, defiance, and hostility toward authority.
My daughter has never had this but she did have the same symptoms temporarily after she was physically abused by a daycare provider. She would lash out at anyone near her, get upset very easily, ignore rules, and many many other disturbing symptoms. It tore my heart out because, for a while anyway, it seemed as though I was never going to get my little girl back. She was totally different than she was (and is now).
The therapist that I sent my daughter to recommended a book called Parenting With Love and Logic by Foster Cline and Jim Fay. It is not set specifically for kids with special needs, it's set up for all kinds of kids. The techniques in this book worked wonders for my daugher. She was back to herself in about three months. Obviously, what this child is dealing with is not the same. He did not come about this behavior because of a trauma; it is probably going to be a life-long issue for him (although several of the sites did say that some was caused by being abused by parents or not connecting with parents). When I looked up the book to tell you what it was since I couldn't remember the authors I discovered that they now have a website. Here it is http://www.loveandlogic.com/ . I haven't looked through this site, so I don't know if there is any good info on there for you or not. If you are in doubt, I would talk to a counsilor or maybe your pastor to see if anyone has any resources available to help you with this child.
Also keep in mind that while a couple of sites said that changing child care providers can compound the problem, that you need to keep yourself, your family, and your other dck safe and mentally sound.
I think you know that already and are ready to deal with this as is necessary for all around.
My daughter has never had this but she did have the same symptoms temporarily after she was physically abused by a daycare provider. She would lash out at anyone near her, get upset very easily, ignore rules, and many many other disturbing symptoms. It tore my heart out because, for a while anyway, it seemed as though I was never going to get my little girl back. She was totally different than she was (and is now).
The therapist that I sent my daughter to recommended a book called Parenting With Love and Logic by Foster Cline and Jim Fay. It is not set specifically for kids with special needs, it's set up for all kinds of kids. The techniques in this book worked wonders for my daugher. She was back to herself in about three months. Obviously, what this child is dealing with is not the same. He did not come about this behavior because of a trauma; it is probably going to be a life-long issue for him (although several of the sites did say that some was caused by being abused by parents or not connecting with parents). When I looked up the book to tell you what it was since I couldn't remember the authors I discovered that they now have a website. Here it is http://www.loveandlogic.com/ . I haven't looked through this site, so I don't know if there is any good info on there for you or not. If you are in doubt, I would talk to a counsilor or maybe your pastor to see if anyone has any resources available to help you with this child.
Also keep in mind that while a couple of sites said that changing child care providers can compound the problem, that you need to keep yourself, your family, and your other dck safe and mentally sound.
I think you know that already and are ready to deal with this as is necessary for all around.
QualiTcare 07:40 PM 06-20-2010
i've tried this with a lot of kids that had ADD or were just always into something....
instead of putting them in "time out" i would give them some mundane task like sorting beads. i'd give them a big tub of beads and tell them i needed them to "help me sort them." i'd give them little cups and it usually worked - when i saw they were getting ready to blow up i'd bring them over and get them started on a task like that. it sounds crazy, but it'd keep them busy for a long time and they didn't seem to mind because they didn't think they were "in trouble."
i had this one kid that was in trouble so much that other parents were threatening to take their kids out of daycare (not mine, but one i worked at). i started him doing things like that and from there on out, he'd ALWAYS want to "help me" do something. he became my little assistant and stayed out of a lot of trouble that way.
instead of putting them in "time out" i would give them some mundane task like sorting beads. i'd give them a big tub of beads and tell them i needed them to "help me sort them." i'd give them little cups and it usually worked - when i saw they were getting ready to blow up i'd bring them over and get them started on a task like that. it sounds crazy, but it'd keep them busy for a long time and they didn't seem to mind because they didn't think they were "in trouble."
i had this one kid that was in trouble so much that other parents were threatening to take their kids out of daycare (not mine, but one i worked at). i started him doing things like that and from there on out, he'd ALWAYS want to "help me" do something. he became my little assistant and stayed out of a lot of trouble that way.
nannyde 05:26 AM 06-21-2010
Originally Posted by sahm2three:
The infamous "How long can you put a child in time out" boy, he has a diagnosis. I haven't read about it yet, but am going to do that soon. He was diagnosed with ODD, or Oppositional Defiant Disorder as well as ADD. I am just torn as to what to do. He can be a very sweet boy, and seems sad (at least I get that vibe). I do agree with whomever said that the pattern of him being termed may be making matters worse. I know I can't fix him, but I don't want to make the situation worse for him either. I think I will just have to start him with a clean slate each morning, but the first time he hurts someone I will just have to remove him. I hate to put the other kids in harms way. Maybe I just keep both eyes right on him and intervene before anyone gets hurt. That will be difficult because I do have other kids, including an infant and 18 month old. I just don't want to give up on the kid. I hope no one thinks I am evil. I didn't keep him with his nose in the corner for 45 minutes. I had him sitting quietly for a good 10 to 15 minutes until he calmed down enough for us to talk and then I had him just hanging out with me as we talked for the rest of the 45 minutes. I didn't berate him. And during the infamous 45 minutes, I talked to the mother. And the mother talked to dcb. Not that I owe anyone an explanation. At school they use a Time Out room and for offenses that would come even close to the offenses he has committed here he would have been in the Time Out room for the rest of the day! In a cubicle with nothing to do but homework or reading.
So....not really sure what I am going to do, but thought I would fill you all in.
The infamous "How long can you put a child in time out" boy, he has a diagnosis. I haven't read about it yet, but am going to do that soon. He was diagnosed with ODD, or Oppositional Defiant Disorder as well as ADD. I am just torn as to what to do. He can be a very sweet boy, and seems sad (at least I get that vibe). I do agree with whomever said that the pattern of him being termed may be making matters worse. I know I can't fix him, but I don't want to make the situation worse for him either. I think I will just have to start him with a clean slate each morning, but the first time he hurts someone I will just have to remove him. I hate to put the other kids in harms way. Maybe I just keep both eyes right on him and intervene before anyone gets hurt. That will be difficult because I do have other kids, including an infant and 18 month old. I just don't want to give up on the kid. I hope no one thinks I am evil. I didn't keep him with his nose in the corner for 45 minutes. I had him sitting quietly for a good 10 to 15 minutes until he calmed down enough for us to talk and then I had him just hanging out with me as we talked for the rest of the 45 minutes. I didn't berate him. And during the infamous 45 minutes, I talked to the mother. And the mother talked to dcb. Not that I owe anyone an explanation. At school they use a Time Out room and for offenses that would come even close to the offenses he has committed here he would have been in the Time Out room for the rest of the day! In a cubicle with nothing to do but homework or reading.
So....not really sure what I am going to do, but thought I would fill you all in.
Boy that was fast. Was she able to get him evaluated that quickly? I would definitely ask for this in writing from the Child Psychiatrist. A lot of times parents will tell you diagnoses like this but in reality the medical doctor or nurse practicioner said he "may" be showing signs of _____. That's all a parent needs in many casses to come to the provider and state the child has that. I would think it would take a series of behavioral assessments and famlial assessments to come up with such a severe diagnosis. The diagnosis of this kind can lead to a VERY costly process for the school system the child is in so they don't hand those out unless they can back them UP. The school will ask that documentation be given.
The next thing I would want to know is what medication and services will the child and family be receiving. Ask for a signed medical consent for both the MEDICAL doctor that gave that diagnosis and the therapist that is working with the child. That way you can talk freely with them.
I wouldn't do ANYTHING in your day care until you receive complete documentation, medication information, and therapy information. IF they are able to come up with these THEN you need to discuss special needs funding for this child to cover the cost of any additional care the child receives based on his special needs. That includes any research, behavioral plan, time for the child to employ the plans, and parent conferencing to discuss the plans.
This diagnosis should translate into funding for your business to meet his needs. A parent doesn't get to drop the ADD and ODD bomb without having the in writing diagnosis to back it up and PROOF of what THEY are doing with the child.
Until you have that he is to be viewed as any other kid in the day care with the same rules, boundaries, and limitations that all of the other kids have. This isn't a "get out of jail free" card. The Mom needs to pony up with what SHE is doing before you make ANY considerations or alterations in his care. You need to pursue NOW the special needs funding for this child.
I could be wrong but I got a sneaking suspcion the child hasn't really been evaluated yet but rather she has done the first level of contact with a regular doc or nurse practicioner and they have discussed SOME of the possibilities of a diagnosis.
I could be wrong but that seems very fast.
Childminder 06:50 AM 06-21-2010
I had a child with ODD....and ADHD, OCD, and was bi-polar too. Good Luck. Couldn't leave him alone for a second. He was 5 when I got him. By the way his counselor (one of three) told me that ODD was just another name for BRAT and usually was just bad parenting.
Crystal 06:51 AM 06-21-2010
I seriously wondered if there was an underlying issue that may be a contributing factor to his behavior issues. Hence, the reason I asked in the original thread if he had been referred for special needs assessment/diagnosis....his behavior seems to off the hook to simply be related to discipline issues.....although I am sure that is PART of the problm.
I am glad that Mom was smart enough to seek medical advice.....and hope that the child will now recieve the services he so desperately needs. You may be able to recieve some support from your local resource and referral agency, in the form of training, intervention, etc. at your program. I would call to find out what types of services they provide to providers who have children with diagnosed special needs.
Good luck, I hope that things get better for you and the child and that you are now able to make a difference in his life - I am glad you chose not to terminate, he NEEDS you!
I am glad that Mom was smart enough to seek medical advice.....and hope that the child will now recieve the services he so desperately needs. You may be able to recieve some support from your local resource and referral agency, in the form of training, intervention, etc. at your program. I would call to find out what types of services they provide to providers who have children with diagnosed special needs.
Good luck, I hope that things get better for you and the child and that you are now able to make a difference in his life - I am glad you chose not to terminate, he NEEDS you!
Crystal 06:52 AM 06-21-2010
Originally Posted by Childminder:
I had a child with ODD....and ADHD, OCD, and was bi-polar too. Good Luck. Couldn't leave him alone for a second. He was 5 when I got him. By the way his counselor (one of three) told me that ODD was just another name for BRAT and usually was just bad parenting.
WOW, I had a child with ODD....and ADHD, OCD, and was bi-polar too. Good Luck. Couldn't leave him alone for a second. He was 5 when I got him. By the way his counselor (one of three) told me that ODD was just another name for BRAT and usually was just bad parenting.
, REALLY?
HeatherB 07:04 AM 06-21-2010
one of mt foster son is ODD ADHD! postive reinforcement & giving him choices seem 2 limit the outbursts here. Not an easy task..but please remember he has no control over how he behaves it is a chemical imbalance!
Crystal 07:11 AM 06-21-2010
BTW, something that may help when he is having his outbursts is providing him with simple sensory play.....sand/water, playdough, flubber, etc. Children who are always "on" tend to relax and unwind when provided these less stimulating activities. The bead sorting idea, and similiar activities, are good as well.
sahm2three 07:14 AM 06-21-2010
I guess he has been undergoing an evaluation for months. Would have been nice to know. She gave me a paper to send in to the state. Since she is on state assistance, so I guess I will get paid a higher rate for him. It makes me feel bad, I hate to think that I am going to cash in on his disorder. Know what I mean? Anyway, at least we know now. I guess she is working with a counselor to work out a plan for him. As for medication, I am not sure what she is doing. She is leaning towards not medicating him, which I would agree with her. I think too many kids are just put on medication and forgotten. There has to be behavioral things we can do. Anyway, I will keep you all posted.
nannyde 08:13 AM 06-21-2010
Originally Posted by sahm2three:
I guess he has been undergoing an evaluation for months. Would have been nice to know. She gave me a paper to send in to the state. Since she is on state assistance, so I guess I will get paid a higher rate for him. It makes me feel bad, I hate to think that I am going to cash in on his disorder. Know what I mean? Anyway, at least we know now. I guess she is working with a counselor to work out a plan for him. As for medication, I am not sure what she is doing. She is leaning towards not medicating him, which I would agree with her. I think too many kids are just put on medication and forgotten. There has to be behavioral things we can do. Anyway, I will keep you all posted.
She gave me a paper to send in to the state. What paper is that and does it have a diagnosis on it? I guess he has been undergoing an evaluation for months. Would have been nice to know. She gave me a paper to send in to the state. Since she is on state assistance, so I guess I will get paid a higher rate for him. It makes me feel bad, I hate to think that I am going to cash in on his disorder. Know what I mean? Anyway, at least we know now. I guess she is working with a counselor to work out a plan for him. As for medication, I am not sure what she is doing. She is leaning towards not medicating him, which I would agree with her. I think too many kids are just put on medication and forgotten. There has to be behavioral things we can do. Anyway, I will keep you all posted.
My State doesn't fund special needs in home day care at a higher rate than regular kids. They DO with Centers and it's huge. The special needs kids end up in the Centers because the rate they pay home day care is really low even for a regular kid.
Why should you feel badly about making money if the kid requires higher level of service than other kids? This is BUSINESS. If you are in business you charge more for more work. Really simple.
There's something about this that doesn't feel right. It doesn't make sense that you have had SO many serious behavior issues with him and up until now she didn't say a word about him even having testing much less counselling?
sahm2three 08:25 AM 06-21-2010
I knew he was being tested for ADD but took that with a grain of salt because I think that is a blanket diagnosis for any child who acts up.
Yes, the paper is a paper from the doctor with a diagnosis report. And my state does pay a higher rate to in home daycares for children with a confirmed doctors diagnosis. The parent had already asked her case worker about this and printed out the email interaction between them and gave it to me as well.
I feel badly because yes it is a business, but this poor kid has something going on with him that he can't completely control, and doesn't really know how to deal with it. I don't know what to do either. But I will be trying the things that were suggested. I have LOTS of beads to sort! But this is the thing, I don't want him to get into trouble for hitting someone and then give him playdough to play with. Isn't that rewarding his behavior? I think I will still do a time out (because he usually needs that time to calm himself) and talk to him about what to do differently and why it wasn't ok. Thinking out loud here, lol, bear with me! Thanks everyone!
Yes, the paper is a paper from the doctor with a diagnosis report. And my state does pay a higher rate to in home daycares for children with a confirmed doctors diagnosis. The parent had already asked her case worker about this and printed out the email interaction between them and gave it to me as well.
I feel badly because yes it is a business, but this poor kid has something going on with him that he can't completely control, and doesn't really know how to deal with it. I don't know what to do either. But I will be trying the things that were suggested. I have LOTS of beads to sort! But this is the thing, I don't want him to get into trouble for hitting someone and then give him playdough to play with. Isn't that rewarding his behavior? I think I will still do a time out (because he usually needs that time to calm himself) and talk to him about what to do differently and why it wasn't ok. Thinking out loud here, lol, bear with me! Thanks everyone!
Crystal 08:31 AM 06-21-2010
Originally Posted by sahm2three:
I knew he was being tested for ADD but took that with a grain of salt because I think that is a blanket diagnosis for any child who acts up.
Yes, the paper is a paper from the doctor with a diagnosis report. And my state does pay a higher rate to in home daycares for children with a confirmed doctors diagnosis. The parent had already asked her case worker about this and printed out the email interaction between them and gave it to me as well.
I feel badly because yes it is a business, but this poor kid has something going on with him that he can't completely control, and doesn't really know how to deal with it. I don't know what to do either. But I will be trying the things that were suggested. I have LOTS of beads to sort! But this is the thing, I don't want him to get into trouble for hitting someone and then give him playdough to play with. Isn't that rewarding his behavior? I think I will still do a time out (because he usually needs that time to calm himself) and talk to him about what to do differently and why it wasn't ok. Thinking out loud here, lol, bear with me! Thanks everyone!
Oh, no, I didn't mean give him play-dough/sensory if he hits the other children. I mean, if you recognize that he is starting to get "wound up" you may be able to avert issues by providing sensory play, BEFORE anyone is hit! I knew he was being tested for ADD but took that with a grain of salt because I think that is a blanket diagnosis for any child who acts up.
Yes, the paper is a paper from the doctor with a diagnosis report. And my state does pay a higher rate to in home daycares for children with a confirmed doctors diagnosis. The parent had already asked her case worker about this and printed out the email interaction between them and gave it to me as well.
I feel badly because yes it is a business, but this poor kid has something going on with him that he can't completely control, and doesn't really know how to deal with it. I don't know what to do either. But I will be trying the things that were suggested. I have LOTS of beads to sort! But this is the thing, I don't want him to get into trouble for hitting someone and then give him playdough to play with. Isn't that rewarding his behavior? I think I will still do a time out (because he usually needs that time to calm himself) and talk to him about what to do differently and why it wasn't ok. Thinking out loud here, lol, bear with me! Thanks everyone!