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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Point of Grace Preschool in Waukee
Blackcat31 12:00 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by unregistered:
Yup, discrimination. That's the right word. Thanks.
I thought that is what you meant. To them though it isn't discrimination, it is a belief. A belief that is their legal right to uphold if they choose.
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youretooloud 12:02 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
This is in their terms
You are not currently practicing a homosexual or bisexual lifestyle.
I have a deeply religious cousin who also happens to be Gay. She chooses not to practice a Homosexual lifestyle. She also chose not to marry a man because she wouldn't love him the right way. She chooses to have a life without a Significant Other. Many wonderful doors have been opened for her that may not have been if she'd chosen the path she was born with.
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mom2many 12:03 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by familyschoolcare:
How are they being racists what does once race have to do with the way they live their life?
Huh????? I'm just as confused! What does race have to do with this?
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familyschoolcare 12:33 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by unregistered:
From what I read it sounds like the daycare doesn't want homosexuals working there? Did I miss something or did some peopke just add that in their posts. That was what I was referring too. If that's the truth then it's sad and wrong.
Oh, I have never consider being homosexual to be a race. To me your race has more to do with where you are born.
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Blackcat31 12:36 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by mom2many:
Huh????? I'm just as confused! What does race have to do with this?
Originally Posted by familyschoolcare:
Oh, I have never consider being homosexual to be a race. To me your race has more to do with where you are born.
She meant discrimination not racism. She clarified in her last post. (post #100)
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familyschoolcare 12:50 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
She meant discrimination not racism. She clarified in her last post. (post #100)
That makes sense at least.
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wdmmom 02:35 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by laundrymom:
I will tread lightly, I respect you, your posts are thoughtful, helpful and usually non discriminatory. I have to be honest when I say, I think someone may have hacked your acct and written this post. However I realize this may just be your hot button. I am not one to stir up trouble. I'm not one to label, point fingers, or try to hide my feelings.
I am bothered by your statement that in a moment of intense fear, horror or shock, that most would respond by cursing.
Personally,..
When I am scared I call on my Lord. I do not curse in his name.
When my closest male relative took his life in a very gruesome way, I cried for God to help me understand, when my best friends daughter was diagnosed with leukemia I fell to my knees in prayer for her, when my niece died of SIDS I wept while praying for healing for her parents. I never once thought to curse, but to ask for help. I really try to think before I post. I try to get my thoughts in check before I say something.

I think there are a lot more people who respond like me. Also, I can't think where it says in my bible that I cannot drink alcohol if I choose to. Which I don't but that's not the point.
My point exactly...none of us are the same. None of us live the same, walk the same, talk the same, look the same, etc. This democracy is telling us who, what, when, where, why and how. I realize all of these people have the option to continue working but what about those that may not. What about the family that isn't married but has a daughter together and they live together, and they want to be married, it's just that their finances don't allow for it right now. Does this woman have to tell her boyfriend of 6 years to pack up and leave their home and leave his daughter because she NEEDS her job?! (There's something to think about...)
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youretooloud 03:41 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
My point exactly...none of us are the same. None of us live the same, walk the same, talk the same, look the same, etc. This democracy is telling us who, what, when, where, why and how. I realize all of these people have the option to continue working but what about those that may not. What about the family that isn't married but has a daughter together and they live together, and they want to be married, it's just that their finances don't allow for it right now. Does this woman have to tell her boyfriend of 6 years to pack up and leave their home and leave his daughter because she NEEDS her job?! (There's something to think about...)
It's too expensive to get married? It's about $80. (less than the price of an Xbox) Those two have their priorities messed up if they can't find a way to get married if they truly want to. When it becomes important to them, they'll do it.

And, yes. If you want to teach at a Christian school, or be in any teaching/leadership position in any church, you should be living a biblical, Godly life. Otherwise, get a job at Sunrise Preschool. Secular Preschools do not have expectations of what happens on the teacher's own time. So, that person who doesn't want to sign the contract should get herself in gear and apply at a secular school before the other teachers do.
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wdmmom 04:20 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
It's too expensive to get married? It's about $80. (less than the price of an Xbox) Those two have their priorities messed up if they can't find a way to get married if they truly want to. When it becomes important to them, they'll do it.

And, yes. If you want to teach at a Christian school, or be in any teaching/leadership position in any church, you should be living a biblical, Godly life. Otherwise, get a job at Sunrise Preschool. Secular Preschools do not have expectations of what happens on the teacher's own time. So, that person who doesn't want to sign the contract should get herself in gear and apply at a secular school before the other teachers do.
Priorities?! You think it's a simple fix to go and spend $80 to get it done but, not only are you wrong but who are you to decide HOW these people get married? This is a first marriage for both and she is insistent on having it done the right way. Not running down to the courthouse and paying the license fee ($35.00) and hire someone to perform the ceremony (ranges from $150-$250). And I certainly wouldn't be apt to rushing into something just because my job said so!

Some people and businesses need to realize that you can't push everyone around! I can only hope that someone finds some more gray in this law and has this new management/owner charged accordingly.

(I work for a pastors family and they are very aware that I'm agnostic. My beliefs have absolutely no bearing on how I perform my job.)

While I do believe they should be Christian to work in a pre-school and participate in prayer, etc., I don't think any employer should expect you to live, act or behave any particular way while off the clock. I'd feel like I'm being watched every move and hoping no one is listening if you slip up.

(A Walmart bag broke and a jar of spaghetti sauce dropped right on your toe. While fumbing with the bag, a container of apple juice. I screamed, "D@mn!t". Now I fear losing my job.

I hope the employees of this place realize it's much easier to be broke and happy than work for someone with rules you don't like and be unhappy!
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mom2many 04:41 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
It's too expensive to get married? It's about $80. (less than the price of an Xbox) Those two have their priorities messed up if they can't find a way to get married if they truly want to. When it becomes important to them, they'll do it.

And, yes. If you want to teach at a Christian school, or be in any teaching/leadership position in any church, you should be living a biblical, Godly life. Otherwise, get a job at Sunrise Preschool. Secular Preschools do not have expectations of what happens on the teacher's own time. So, that person who doesn't want to sign the contract should get herself in gear and apply at a secular school before the other teachers do.
Exactly!
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Unregistered 05:01 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
It's too expensive to get married? It's about $80. (less than the price of an Xbox) Those two have their priorities messed up if they can't find a way to get married if they truly want to. When it becomes important to them, they'll do it.

And, yes. If you want to teach at a Christian school, or be in any teaching/leadership position in any church, you should be living a biblical, Godly life. Otherwise, get a job at Sunrise Preschool. Secular Preschools do not have expectations of what happens on the teacher's own time. So, that person who doesn't want to sign the contract should get herself in gear and apply at a secular school before the other teachers do.
This is absolutely ridiculous!

People should get married if and when they want to get married. FYI, weddings aren't always cheap and there is nothing wrong with wanting to wait to get married and save up for that wedding. True, a couple can apply for a marriage license and skip the wedding, but why should anyone have to give up having the wedding that they want to have? Don't make it about priorities, either. That's nonsense. Priorities are unique to a person's situation. It's not "one size fits all".

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but think about this. Would Jesus be cool with the situation? I'm being serious. If the teachers are already working there and have been good teachers so far, then isn't it pretty judgemental to see them in a different manner based on how regularly they attend church or have a child out of wedlock? Why should it matter? It's judgement and the last time I checked, judging was not a Godly behavior. There are lots of bible verses that talk about how to live a biblical life, but have you considered that there are quite a few verses that address being judgemental?

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumbling block or an occasion to fall in his brother's way." Romans 14:12-13

“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye." Matthew 7:1-5


I would be a lousy candidate for that place, but it that would be fine by me. I'd rather focus on love, rather than arm the children in my care with reasons to find fault with others. I realize that by making this post that I'm being judgemental but I waited until my kids were gone for the day so that they don't see me being judgy.
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Preschool/daycare teacher 05:44 PM 08-25-2011
This is a CHURCH preschool. Not a secular preschool. If I went looking for a job at a church preschool, I would expect to follow their lifestyle. If I were a parent, I would enroll my child at a church preschool that followed my beliefs. I would probably pull my child out if I heard that Ms so and so at x church preschool was not following that lifestyle. The whole purpose of enrolling my child at a church preschool would be because I would want my child in the care of someone who follows my beliefs (the beliefs I want my child taught and brought up in). Look at it this way. If you attended a Christian Church, and then heard the minister didn't even live a Christian life, would you want that minister ministering to you? What would be the purpose of a Christian minister if he wasn't even a Christian, following the Bible's teachings? Same for a teacher in a church preschool. The parents enroll their child at a CHURCH preschool for that reason.
These employees from the church preschool are representing the preschool whether they're at work or at the store. Just as someone working at any preschool or daycare represents their daycare/preschool, even during their off hours.
The story didnt say anything about requiring that of the families. It's not the healthy who need a doctor, it's the sick. So if someone was enrolled at the preschool who did not live these Biblical lifestyles, they're in the right place (or at least that's how my church would look at it).
I cannot see how it's discriminatory since it's in a church preschool (run by that church). I'd think it'd go without saying that employees would be expected to uphold a certain lifestyle while working there. If I didn't want to live that way, I wouldn't have ever applied to work there to begin with.
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familyschoolcare 06:33 PM 08-25-2011
How is excepting people to live by the life style that the church pre-school believes in and “sells” any different from expecting someone to where clothing sold at the boutique they work at? Please respond I like this conversation and I DO NOT see how it is wrong to except people to live a Christian life that are teacher/leaders of a church run/based pre-school.

Some people have asked if this is common practice and as I have a lot of friends that work in churches or church run schools (Because, I got my BA from a private Christian University). Yes, it is common practice and while some place have a much more relaxed policy just saying employees must live a Christian or Biblical life, my friends have informed me that more than a few are stricter. Examples include having to tithe %10 of you income, volunteering either extra income or time to a religious based non-profit organization of some sort, those are the two that this post has not brought up that are out their in the Christian world of employment.
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youretooloud 07:11 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
This is absolutely ridiculous!

People should get married if and when they want to get married.
It's not at all ridiculous.

If you choose to live out of wedlock, you don't get to lead children in a Christian school. It doesn't matter if you REALLY want a 14K dollar wedding, and can't afford it. You are more than welcome to live in whatever way you want, but you can't lead in a church until you are willing to give your life over.

You can live however you want...as long as you work in the secular world.

I don't care if people want to live together, or have an open marriage. Just don't teach my kids in a Christian school if you want to live your life your way.
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Unregistered 07:27 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by youretooloud:
It's not at all ridiculous.

If you choose to live out of wedlock, you don't get to lead children in a Christian school. It doesn't matter if you REALLY want a 14K dollar wedding, and can't afford it. You are more than welcome to live in whatever way you want, but you can't lead in a church until you are willing to give your life over.

You can live however you want...as long as you work in the secular world.

I don't care if people want to live together, or have an open marriage. Just don't teach my kids in a Christian school if you want to live your life your way.
Who said anything about an open marriage?
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wdmmom 07:31 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by Preschool/daycare teacher:
This is a CHURCH preschool. Not a secular preschool. If I went looking for a job at a church preschool, I would expect to follow their lifestyle. If I were a parent, I would enroll my child at a church preschool that followed my beliefs. I would probably pull my child out if I heard that Ms so and so at x church preschool was not following that lifestyle. The whole purpose of enrolling my child at a church preschool would be because I would want my child in the care of someone who follows my beliefs (the beliefs I want my child taught and brought up in). Look at it this way. If you attended a Christian Church, and then heard the minister didn't even live a Christian life, would you want that minister ministering to you? What would be the purpose of a Christian minister if he wasn't even a Christian, following the Bible's teachings? Same for a teacher in a church preschool. The parents enroll their child at a CHURCH preschool for that reason.
These employees from the church preschool are representing the preschool whether they're at work or at the store. Just as someone working at any preschool or daycare represents their daycare/preschool, even during their off hours.
The story didnt say anything about requiring that of the families. It's not the healthy who need a doctor, it's the sick. So if someone was enrolled at the preschool who did not live these Biblical lifestyles, they're in the right place (or at least that's how my church would look at it).
I cannot see how it's discriminatory since it's in a church preschool (run by that church). I'd think it'd go without saying that employees would be expected to uphold a certain lifestyle while working there. If I didn't want to live that way, I wouldn't have ever applied to work there to begin with.
These people aren't applying. They have worked there and because of a change in management, now they are required to sign a code of conduct.

If a teacher was hired regardless of having a child out of wedlock and was residing with the child's father/boyfriend and the facility didn't have an issue prior to hiring, why is it now being condemned just because a new management team says so?!

And, how do you really know (I mean REALLY KNOW) whether any and all of these people are upholding this lifestyle? Are you the ethics police? Are you a fly on all of these people's walls?! Of course not!

No one ever REALLY knows anybody. For all you know your pastor is a closet drinker, he treats his wife horribly, etc. YOU nor anyone REALLY knows...

We all just HOPE that everyone lives a particular way, however, everyones beliefs vary as does everyones way of life.
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Unregistered 07:36 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
These people aren't applying. They have worked there and because of a change in management, now they are required to sign a code of conduct.

If a teacher was hired regardless of having a child out of wedlock and was residing with the child's father/boyfriend and the facility didn't have an issue prior to hiring, why is it now being condemned just because a new management team says so?!

And, how do you really know (I mean REALLY KNOW) whether any and all of these people are upholding this lifestyle? Are you the ethics police? Are you a fly on all of these people's walls?! Of course not!

No one ever REALLY knows anybody. For all you know your pastor is a closet drinker, he treats his wife horribly, etc. YOU nor anyone REALLY knows...

We all just HOPE that everyone lives a particular way, however, everyones beliefs vary as does everyones way of life.
Well said!

I'm pretty sure that you've heard this before but I'll say it just in case. You're pretty awesome!
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wdmmom 07:53 PM 08-25-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Well said!

I'm pretty sure that you've heard this before but I'll say it just in case. You're pretty awesome!
Thanks for the compliment. (I can't say that I've heard that one before.)

I'm not out to disrespect anyone or religion in general. But the people that have jobs and peform their job very well but may not meet all the criteria of the code of conduct are forced to find a new job. It's sad! Especially when the economy is in the tank as it is.
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nannyde 07:29 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
That daycare will lose employees and families because the church didn't consider that the employees and parents may not be cool with the policies which all but trample on a person's civil liberties.
But Mullen said the unexpected media coverage of the changes at Point of Grace has led to multiple calls of interest and support from other teachers and parents.

“I could never have paid for this much advertising,” he said.

Cha Ching

http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/d...e-pastor-says/
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Blackcat31 07:29 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Who said anything about an open marriage?
She was making a point about not caring what people do in their own lives as long as they weren't Christian role models for her children.

Originally Posted by wdmmom:
These people aren't applying. They have worked there and because of a change in management, now they are required to sign a code of conduct.

If a teacher was hired regardless of having a child out of wedlock and was residing with the child's father/boyfriend and the facility didn't have an issue prior to hiring, why is it now being condemned just because a new management team says so?!

And, how do you really know (I mean REALLY KNOW) whether any and all of these people are upholding this lifestyle? Are you the ethics police? Are you a fly on all of these people's walls?! Of course not!

No one ever REALLY knows anybody. For all you know your pastor is a closet drinker, he treats his wife horribly, etc. YOU nor anyone REALLY knows...

We all just HOPE that everyone lives a particular way, however, everyones beliefs vary as does everyones way of life.
I thought the debate was over whether or not the daycare had the right to ask their employees to live a specific lifestyle, NOT about whether or not they were doing it and/or policing them. They were asking new and old employees to agree to it, which to me means the employees are agreeing to police themselves and be people of their word.

Originally Posted by wdmmom:
I'm not out to disrespect anyone or religion in general. But the people that have jobs and peform their job very well but may not meet all the criteria of the code of conduct are forced to find a new job. It's sad! Especially when the economy is in the tank as it is.
People are losing their jobs every day to new management, down sizing and outsourcing to other places, people and countries so why is it so especially sad for these people?

I think whenever new management/owners come on board it is common practice to clean house.
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wdmmom 07:40 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
She was making a point about not caring what people do in their own lives as long as they weren't Christian role models for her children.



I thought the debate was over whether or not the daycare had the right to ask their employees to live a specific lifestyle, NOT about whether or not they were doing it and/or policing them. They were asking new and old employees to agree to it, which to me means the employees are agreeing to police themselves and be people of their word.



People are losing their jobs every day to new management, down sizing and outsourcing to other places, people and countries so why is it so especially sad for these people?

I think whenever new management/owners come on board it is common practice to clean house.
That may be so but these employees have 2 weeks to govern themselves accordingly.

No stated rules/regulations/policies to an actual "Code of Conduct"?! I just think it's very unfair to these employees that have worked there for an unspecified amount of time, have gotten pay increases, received exemplary performance reviews, do their job, aren't late/tardy, don't call in, etc. but might not meet ALL of this so called criteria.

What if your child was placed in a daycare at age 1 and had the same teacher for the past 3 years and this year you find out that this new management team will not allow Ms. Sarah to work there anymore all because she roommates with a guy and a girl?! It's really ridiculous if you ask me.

No one knows anyones finances. If you can't afford to live on your own, you roommate or live at home. What if DSM isn't home?! What if you are going to school part time and working part time? Why should it matter who you live with... if it's man, woman, dog, cat or alien?! Because according to their new code of conduct, you can't live with someone of the opposite sex without being married. What if you roommate with a gay guy?! There's always going to be circumstances that aren't going to apply to everyone and they are trying to make this code apply to everyone regardless of their past work performance.
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satcook 08:42 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
I hope the employees of this place realize it's much easier to be broke and happy than work for someone with rules you don't like and be unhappy!
But for some of us, we are happy with these rules, and it is what we want in a workplace.

Lori
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Blackcat31 09:30 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
That may be so but these employees have 2 weeks to govern themselves accordingly.

No stated rules/regulations/policies to an actual "Code of Conduct"?! I just think it's very unfair to these employees that have worked there for an unspecified amount of time, have gotten pay increases, received exemplary performance reviews, do their job, aren't late/tardy, don't call in, etc. but might not meet ALL of this so called criteria.

What if your child was placed in a daycare at age 1 and had the same teacher for the past 3 years and this year you find out that this new management team will not allow Ms. Sarah to work there anymore all because she roommates with a guy and a girl?! It's really ridiculous if you ask me.
No one knows anyones finances. If you can't afford to live on your own, you roommate or live at home. What if DSM isn't home?! What if you are going to school part time and working part time? Why should it matter who you live with... if it's man, woman, dog, cat or alien?! Because according to their new code of conduct, you can't live with someone of the opposite sex without being married. What if you roommate with a gay guy?! There's always going to be circumstances that aren't going to apply to everyone and they are trying to make this code apply to everyone regardless of their past work performance.
I agree with you, I do. It is a sad, and IMHO, an unfair thing for current employees especially in the situation you mentioned above (in bold).

However, with that being said, (and FTR- this is NOT my personal thought as I don't care either way) if I had placed my child in a Christian daycare with the intent for them to learn from Christian role models, then I would probably not want my child being taught by Ms Sarah if I was not in agreement with her sinful living arrangements. Does that make sense?

Like I said, I do not care about how someone lives since I truly believe in personal choices and life styles, I am only saying what I think parents who specifically seek out Christian daycares and role models would think about the situation.

Hypothetically, Not having the new rules would not have allowed me, as a parent to know what Ms Sarah was doing in her personal life/time but with the new rules I could rest assured that the daycare was doing everything in it's power to guarantee me the proper role models for my child by requiring all staff to agree to this committment to a moral life style.


This whole topic/debate reminds me alot of the thread cillybean83 started about being termed by a parent for her political beliefs. https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...itical+beliefs
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satcook 09:38 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Lori could we see what they do have to sign?

Offering free child care on top of minimum wage is a BIG salary for a staff assistant. That would definitely help. Here in a center that would be an additional 4.5-5.00 dollars an hour per kid of untaxed income.

That's what I'm talking about with special special. THAT'S some money especially when you are getting into a second/third kid.

If they offer THAT... and they keep their infant population really low or no infants... my guess is they can pull it off.

Just my guess though...
We ask them to read the staff handbook and then sign a statement acknowledging they have read it and will follow it. Here are some snippets from the handbook:

SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT
The teacher should:
 Have a clear testimony of salvation and ability to express it
 Make sure that any doctrine discussed in the classroom should be in alignment with Sunrise’s statement of faith or not discussed at all
 Be an active member in a church that is doctrinally sound
 Have a daily quiet time to be renewed, fed by the word, and prayed-up before entering the classroom every morning
 Remember and strive to include Christ in all our teaching styles and methods

THE MATTHEW 18 PRINCIPLE FOR SOLVING PROBLEMS IN AND OUT OF THE CLASSROOM
“And if your brother sins go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gather. Matthew 18:15-17

Problems are defined as work-related disputes or an employee’s expressed feeling of dissatisfaction with aspects of her/his working conditions and working relationships which are outside her/his control. There are several clear principles that Jesus taught in solving people-to-people problems: Keep the issue in confidence. Discussing the problem with others (gossiping) does not keep the matter confidential. Most issues are solved on the two person level. Keep the issue straight forward and in brotherly (sisterly) love.

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES
The use of alcohol, tobacco, and non-prescription drugs is strictly forbidden. All employees are responsible for their conduct during the working day as well as after hours. Conduct that is not in compliance with the ethics and morality taught at Sunrise Christian Childcare may be grounds for immediate dismissal.

I, _________________________, have thoroughly read, understood, and agree to observe the requirements as outlined in the staff/personnel handbook.
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wdmmom 09:38 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I agree with you, I do. It is a sad, and IMHO, an unfair thing for current employees especially in the situation you mentioned above (in bold).

However, with that being said, (and FTR- this is NOT my personal thought as I don't care either way) if I had placed my child in a Christian daycare with the intent for them to learn from Christian role models, then I would probably not want my child being taught by Ms Sarah if I was not in agreement with her sinful living arrangements. Does that make sense?

Like I said, I do not care about how someone lives since I truly believe in personal choices and life styles, I am only saying what I think parents who specifically seek out Christian daycares and role models would think about the situation.

Hypothetically, Not having the new rules would not have allowed me, as a parent to know what Ms Sarah was doing in her personal life/time but with the new rules I could rest assured that the daycare was doing everything in it's power to guarantee me the proper role models for my child by requiring all staff to agree to this committment to a moral life style.


This whole topic/debate reminds me alot of the thread cillybean83 started about being termed by a parent for her political beliefs. https://www.daycare.com/forum/showth...itical+beliefs
I have no doubt the previous management team made strides in who they chose as employees and if Ms. Sarah is a Christian, parents are members of the church, she also attends, isn't interested in a relationship, etc. it makes no sense why her living situatioin should affect her job. Especially if she's not even having a relationship with the male roomate. KWIM?

I know many young, college students roommate right after school while searching for ideal employment.

I completely understand what the new management team is trying to do but how do you tell someone that has been employed for years that all of a sudden, they are good enough to employ based on their living situation?!

Hypothetical situation but what if Ms. Sarah lived in her female cousins house and the female cousin got engaged and had the fiance move in. Now Ms. Sarah has to find a new place to live just to comply with her employers request. That's just ignorant. Ms. Sarah's cousins fiance should have no bearning on employment...kwim?!
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nannyde 09:45 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by satcook:
We ask them to read the staff handbook and then sign a statement acknowledging they have read it and will follow it. Here are some snippets from the handbook:

SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT
The teacher should:
 Have a clear testimony of salvation and ability to express it
 Make sure that any doctrine discussed in the classroom should be in alignment with Sunrise’s statement of faith or not discussed at all
 Be an active member in a church that is doctrinally sound
 Have a daily quiet time to be renewed, fed by the word, and prayed-up before entering the classroom every morning
 Remember and strive to include Christ in all our teaching styles and methods

THE MATTHEW 18 PRINCIPLE FOR SOLVING PROBLEMS IN AND OUT OF THE CLASSROOM
“And if your brother sins go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gather. Matthew 18:15-17

Problems are defined as work-related disputes or an employee’s expressed feeling of dissatisfaction with aspects of her/his working conditions and working relationships which are outside her/his control. There are several clear principles that Jesus taught in solving people-to-people problems: Keep the issue in confidence. Discussing the problem with others (gossiping) does not keep the matter confidential. Most issues are solved on the two person level. Keep the issue straight forward and in brotherly (sisterly) love.

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES
The use of alcohol, tobacco, and non-prescription drugs is strictly forbidden. All employees are responsible for their conduct during the working day as well as after hours. Conduct that is not in compliance with the ethics and morality taught at Sunrise Christian Childcare may be grounds for immediate dismissal.

I, _________________________, have thoroughly read, understood, and agree to observe the requirements as outlined in the staff/personnel handbook.
THANK YOU for putting that up.

Do you see that what you have here isn't anywhere near the SPECIFIC conduct as Point of Grace? This ... to me... doesn't compare in any way to what they are saying.

With the exception of being specific about alcohol and cigs.... there isn't anything in there suggesting a homosexual would be forbidden from working there... someone who lives with an opposite sex person who is not an IMMEDIATE relative... someone who has sex outside of marriage... etc.

What I'm interested in with POG is that it's SO specific.

Now can I ask... do you work for parents who aren't living the christian lifestyle?
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Blackcat31 09:46 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
I have no doubt the previous management team made strides in who they chose as employees and if Ms. Sarah is a Christian, parents are members of the church, she also attends, isn't interested in a relationship, etc. it makes no sense why her living situatioin should affect her job. Especially if she's not even having a relationship with the male roomate. KWIM?

I know many young, college students roommate right after school while searching for ideal employment.

I completely understand what the new management team is trying to do but how do you tell someone that has been employed for years that all of a sudden, they are good enough to employ based on their living situation?!

Hypothetical situation but what if Ms. Sarah lived in her female cousins house and the female cousin got engaged and had the fiance move in. Now Ms. Sarah has to find a new place to live just to comply with her employers request. That's just ignorant. Ms. Sarah's cousins fiance should have no bearning on employment...kwim?!
I know. It is a really complex situation and there really is no realistic way of being able to foresee all the different scenarios that each staff person could or does have and I assume each situation will have to be looked at as an individual situation but I also think they will either have to grandfather some current employees in regardless of the rules or they will simply have to make a fresh new start and not care who they have to fire or let go.

Either way, whether I disagree or not, it is still their (the new owners) right to make whatever rules they see fit to make for their business. It is no different than us doing interviews to see if potential families are a good fit for us. Which is really just another way of saying that we are checking to see if their ideals about raising, teaching and disciplining a child is the same as ours.
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satcook 11:07 AM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by nannyde:
THANK YOU for putting that up.

Do you see that what you have here isn't anywhere near the SPECIFIC conduct as Point of Grace? This ... to me... doesn't compare in any way to what they are saying.

With the exception of being specific about alcohol and cigs.... there isn't anything in there suggesting a homosexual would be forbidden from working there... someone who lives with an opposite sex person who is not an IMMEDIATE relative... someone who has sex outside of marriage... etc.

What I'm interested in with POG is that it's SO specific.

Now can I ask... do you work for parents who aren't living the christian lifestyle?
A lot of the things you are talking about would be covered in the interview and those people would not be hired. Everyone who works here would have no problem signing the statement that Point of Grace is asking their employees to sign. That is the point I am making.

When I place my own children in this daycare I want to know that their teachers are Christians, living out the Christian life. That is important to me and to the school!

The parents in the daycare are not asked to sign any statement. If they would like their children at a Christian daycare with Christian teachers, then that is fine with us. What they do at home does not affect us.

Lori
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Unregistered 11:42 AM 08-26-2011
Why should a person have to sign an agreement like the one that POG has? Is that piece of paper going to guarantee that the person signing it will honor it?

I would be much more comfortable with trusting the teachers to lead the lifestyle that POG requires without having to force them to sign a contract stating that they will. I would want free will to determine what kind of choices the teachers make with regard to how they live their lives.

Just a thought.
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wdmmom 01:55 PM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by satcook:
We ask them to read the staff handbook and then sign a statement acknowledging they have read it and will follow it. Here are some snippets from the handbook:

SPIRITUAL DEVELOPMENT
The teacher should:
 Have a clear testimony of salvation and ability to express it
 Make sure that any doctrine discussed in the classroom should be in alignment with Sunrise’s statement of faith or not discussed at all
 Be an active member in a church that is doctrinally sound
 Have a daily quiet time to be renewed, fed by the word, and prayed-up before entering the classroom every morning
 Remember and strive to include Christ in all our teaching styles and methods

THE MATTHEW 18 PRINCIPLE FOR SOLVING PROBLEMS IN AND OUT OF THE CLASSROOM
“And if your brother sins go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gather. Matthew 18:15-17

Problems are defined as work-related disputes or an employee’s expressed feeling of dissatisfaction with aspects of her/his working conditions and working relationships which are outside her/his control. There are several clear principles that Jesus taught in solving people-to-people problems: Keep the issue in confidence. Discussing the problem with others (gossiping) does not keep the matter confidential. Most issues are solved on the two person level. Keep the issue straight forward and in brotherly (sisterly) love.

PROHIBITED ACTIVITIES
The use of alcohol, tobacco, and non-prescription drugs is strictly forbidden. All employees are responsible for their conduct during the working day as well as after hours. Conduct that is not in compliance with the ethics and morality taught at Sunrise Christian Childcare may be grounds for immediate dismissal.

I, _________________________, have thoroughly read, understood, and agree to observe the requirements as outlined in the staff/personnel handbook.
I think this would be appropriate for employees to sign. Not the new code of conduct.

HOWEVER, Tylenol falls into the catagory of non-prescription drugs. Does that mean I can't take Tylenol for a headache, Sudafed for a cold or Robitussin for a sore throat?!
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familyschoolcare 02:17 PM 08-26-2011
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Why should a person have to sign an agreement like the one that POG has? Is that piece of paper going to guarantee that the person signing it will honor it?

I would be much more comfortable with trusting the teachers to lead the lifestyle that POG requires without having to force them to sign a contract stating that they will. I would want free will to determine what kind of choices the teachers make with regard to how they live their lives.

Just a thought.
By having the employees sign an agreement, they can fire them if they do not follow it and under the law it would not be discrimination. Because, they did not uphold their end of the agreement.
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momofboys 09:26 PM 08-27-2011
Originally Posted by Catherder:
I thought many Churches sold discrimination as a product....

Yep, I am going to pay for that one....

Eh, I am still bitter about the whole Churches protesting at Military Funerals thing.... You know...the guys dying because of Religious wars and all
Just b/c one whacko church protests (and they are whackos) don't lump all Christians in the same boat. I believe it is just one church doing this. Please don't assume all Christians agree. That church is evil!
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momofboys 09:31 PM 08-27-2011
Originally Posted by momofsix:
Maybe it is just human nature to feel personally attacked by others? Maybe it depends on where you live as I'm not sure?
It seems the only news that gives Christians a fair voice is FOX, and I really don't care for their news! (to me they give Christians, conservatives, republicans...a bad name) ALL the editorials in our paper criticize Christians, especially in politics. Even in popular movies/tv shows Christians are usually shown as horrible people, and the non-Christians are the "better" people.
As for those Christians that say the earthquake is God's punishment on the USA, that really just proves my point. MOST Christians don't feel that way. MOST of us are praying for those that were hurt or had property damage...our churches are helping where/if needed in rebuilding or with financial support. Why is the focus on the bad only...I guess because it's newsworthy and it gets ratings because it gets people ticked off. The response of most normal Christians isn't going to get any tv station big ratings so they don't show that.
I don't shove my beliefs down anyones throat. I live my life the way I believe is right I hope I always treat others respectfully and would feel horribly if someone thought I was disrespecting them. I have many, many relationships with people that believe differently than I do. We can be and always will be friends-whatever our beliefs

ITA with this! Just because some influential Christian says something does not mean that ALL Christians believe in the same manner.
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Preschool/daycare teacher 07:43 PM 08-29-2011
Originally Posted by wdmmom:
These people aren't applying. They have worked there and because of a change in management, now they are required to sign a code of conduct.

If a teacher was hired regardless of having a child out of wedlock and was residing with the child's father/boyfriend and the facility didn't have an issue prior to hiring, why is it now being condemned just because a new management team says so?!

And, how do you really know (I mean REALLY KNOW) whether any and all of these people are upholding this lifestyle? Are you the ethics police? Are you a fly on all of these people's walls?! Of course not!

No one ever REALLY knows anybody. For all you know your pastor is a closet drinker, he treats his wife horribly, etc. YOU nor anyone REALLY knows...

We all just HOPE that everyone lives a particular way, however, everyones beliefs vary as does everyones way of life.
I meant when they first applied, they should have assumed they'd be required to live the Christian lifestyle, since it is, after all, in a church. This whole thing of having to sign the agreement would be an issue if it had been at a regular preschool/daycare center that is not in the church and then they wanted the employees to sign that agreement. Since secular businesses cannot discriminate on religious matters. But a church is a CHURCH, and is seperated from the state. A catholic church wouldn't hire a morman to be their Pope But is that wrong, since it was in regards to religion?

When new management comes on board, the current employees are pretty much "new" to that manager. Things change when a new manager begins managing things. They are in charge now, and the old way of doing things are normally changed or done away with. The new director wants to make sure the employees representing that church and preschool are living the lifestyle. If the owner at the daycare I'm at now were to turn it over to me, I would probably change some things. Would I not have the right to do that, since I would be the one managing things now? The parents, I'm sure, would expect that since I'm a seperate person from the current owner.

I didn't mean that they COULD police the changes. But if they found out otherwise, they'd have the right to fire that person since they weren't upholding their end of the contract. Besides that, their conscience should get the better of them if they were knowingly not living in accordance to the Bible. I just don't see what is wrong with a new manager setting out some new policies for her employees that require them to behave as if they are related to a church. They would probably go through the list on a case by case basis, anyway. It's a heart issue. If the employee was living in an non-biblical way, they should find another daycare that isn't church based. However if there was some technicality, the employee could probably explain the issue and how it doesn't affect THEIR lifestyle. The media just loves to make Christians sound as bad as possible (and yes, there are some radicals out there who claim to be Christian, but aren't behaving like it). The whole story may not be reported.

Does anyone know the whole list of exactly WHAT the new director is requiring them to sign? I haven't found the full list yet. Maybe I'll change my tune a little after I see the whole thing But from what I've heard so far the new changes only make sense to me for a church preschool.
Reply
mom2many 08:19 PM 08-29-2011
Originally Posted by Preschool/daycare teacher:
I didn't mean that they COULD police the changes. But if they found out otherwise, they'd have the right to fire that person since they weren't upholding their end of the contract. Besides that, their conscience should get the better of them if they were knowingly not living in accordance to the Bible. I just don't see what is wrong with a new manager setting out some new policies for her employees that require them to behave as if they are related to a church. They would probably go through the list on a case by case basis, anyway. It's a heart issue. If the employee was living in an non-biblical way, they should find another daycare that isn't church based. However if there was some technicality, the employee could probably explain the issue and how it doesn't affect THEIR lifestyle. The media just loves to make Christians sound as bad as possible (and yes, there are some radicals out there who claim to be Christian, but aren't behaving like it). The whole story may not be reported.
DITTO! I totally agree with this!
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nannyde 07:12 AM 08-30-2011
Originally Posted by Preschool/daycare teacher:

Does anyone know the whole list of exactly WHAT the new director is requiring them to sign?
http://www.pointofgrace.com/site/ima...cademy_app.pdf

Here's a recent interview with the pastor. It's on the same radio station I do guest appearances on. It's at the 13 minute mark.

http://stevedeace.com/news/education...cast-08-24-11/
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familyschoolcare 09:35 AM 08-30-2011
The job application look normal for a church/christian school.

One of the important words in the application is Evangelical. It leads to and most likely is the main reason for some or all of the life style "guidelines". The church is now (they may not have been before) a church that is focusing part or all of there resources on "finding" and "helping" the unsaved (those who do not believe that Jesus died for there sins). The church has further deiced to use the preschool as an Evangelical tool, a ministry of the church (meaning that the school is now an arm of the church, and not a separate entity). Meaning that they want the school to be something that helps to "save" the "Unsaved" in order to do this the workers must model Christian behavior. Because if someone working there openly did something that was against the religion that the church was trying to promote, and bring people into. It would be like the secretary the first person that the public sees when going into the office of the coca cola company drinking Pepsi everyday at here desk.
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Tags:business ethics, christian, niche market, private school, religion
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