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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Your Thoughts On The Government Shutdown
Play Care 11:06 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Exactly.
As far as the individuals here who have never heard the downfalls of socialized health care in not quite sure how to respond to that. The information out there about how people have to wait months or even years just to get in to see a doctor, regardless of emergent need is ASTOUNDING. Not to mention the fact that if the powers that be think your life is not worthy of saving they will simply deny your access to any care at all.......it's all incredibly well publicized and documented.
See, I've looked and can't find anything *credible.* What I do know is that countries with socialized medicine enjoy longer lives, and lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc. More importantly, the vast majority of people in countries with socialized medicine report they are happy/ satisfied with their care. Exactly.
As far as the individuals here who have never heard the downfalls of socialized health care in not quite sure how to respond to that. The information out there about how people have to wait months or even years just to get in to see a doctor, regardless of emergent need is ASTOUNDING. Not to mention the fact that if the powers that be think your life is not worthy of saving they will simply deny your access to any care at all.......it's all incredibly well publicized and documented.
And if we are going to talk about denial of services - several years ago in my area a woman was denied a liver transplant because her *private* insurance refused to pay for it. They had read her file and knew she was not going to survive the surgery. But of course there was an outcry and she got the transplant - and died on the table.
Willow 11:10 AM 10-04-2013
Playcare - http://www.forbes.com/sites/sallypip...-going-away-3/
All you have to do is google "socialized health care studies failing" and up will pop loads of credible sources with citations to credible studies.
Socialized health care does not work and an overwhelming majority end up suffering endlessly for it.
(You may have to clarify "credible" for me though if you need help locating more information.....I personally don't find the NHS for example a credible source for statistics on the system they continue to thump despite it bring broken you know?)
All you have to do is google "socialized health care studies failing" and up will pop loads of credible sources with citations to credible studies.
Socialized health care does not work and an overwhelming majority end up suffering endlessly for it.
(You may have to clarify "credible" for me though if you need help locating more information.....I personally don't find the NHS for example a credible source for statistics on the system they continue to thump despite it bring broken you know?)
Blackcat31 11:19 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Play Care:
See, I've looked and can't find anything *credible.* What I do know is that countries with socialized medicine enjoy longer lives, and lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc. More importantly, the vast majority of people in countries with socialized medicine report they are happy/ satisfied with their care.
And if we are going to talk about denial of services - several years ago in my area a woman was denied a liver transplant because her *private* insurance refused to pay for it. They had read her file and knew she was not going to survive the surgery. But of course there was an outcry and she got the transplant - and died on the table.
I don't think you can accurately compare one country to another in certain situations of illness/disease etc since every country has a different racial and cultural make up that greatly impacts/influences those statistics. kiwm?See, I've looked and can't find anything *credible.* What I do know is that countries with socialized medicine enjoy longer lives, and lower rates of heart disease, diabetes, obesity, etc. More importantly, the vast majority of people in countries with socialized medicine report they are happy/ satisfied with their care.
And if we are going to talk about denial of services - several years ago in my area a woman was denied a liver transplant because her *private* insurance refused to pay for it. They had read her file and knew she was not going to survive the surgery. But of course there was an outcry and she got the transplant - and died on the table.
Also, another little fact I came across awhile ago..."Canadians are, overall, statistically healthier than Americans and show lower rates of many diseases such as various forms of cancer. But, on the other hand, evidence suggests that with respect to some illnesses (such as breast cancer), those who do get sick have a higher rate of cure in the U.S. than in Canada"
I belong to a Canadian forum for child care providers and not many of them say they are happy with their healthcare system so just like the US, I am sure there are two (or 3 and 4) sides to everything.
My3cents 11:27 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
All I know is that my two children (adults) who support themselves both work two jobs in order to pay for their college costs.
Both live on their own. Neither have children. Neither of my kids send $ on video games, partying or extravagances that a lot of young adults do (i-phones, new cars, name brand clothes etc) Both my kids live pretty frugally. they will end up having to move back home
Both of them have VERY little money left after paying for their rent, groceries and personal needs. and they are starting off...many families are in this boat too
With this new health plan, both will either need to stop eating or give up their apartments in order to pay for their "required" health care. yes because many companies (jobs) are letting health care go because they don't want to pay for it and figure that it can now be a personal expense for the individual.
Regardless of whether or not this plan is good for the majority or not...really doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is my kids are having to put food and shelter BELOW health care on their priority lists and something is just not right about that. I am with you on this BC- IF people could afford health insurance they would already have it.
My DD actually made the comment that if she finds she can't do this....she is just going to have to have an illegitimate child or two so she doesn't have to worry and can survive.
Yes, she meant that as a joke but sadly I find more truth to her line of thinking than not....kwim?
she mean't it as a joke but this already is happening everywhere....reason why so many adults don't marry, they will loose services and won't be able to afford to be married. Truth is it is a reality and that is messed up- Woman have kids all the time to get more benefits out of the government. All I know is that my two children (adults) who support themselves both work two jobs in order to pay for their college costs.
Both live on their own. Neither have children. Neither of my kids send $ on video games, partying or extravagances that a lot of young adults do (i-phones, new cars, name brand clothes etc) Both my kids live pretty frugally. they will end up having to move back home
Both of them have VERY little money left after paying for their rent, groceries and personal needs. and they are starting off...many families are in this boat too
With this new health plan, both will either need to stop eating or give up their apartments in order to pay for their "required" health care. yes because many companies (jobs) are letting health care go because they don't want to pay for it and figure that it can now be a personal expense for the individual.
Regardless of whether or not this plan is good for the majority or not...really doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is my kids are having to put food and shelter BELOW health care on their priority lists and something is just not right about that. I am with you on this BC- IF people could afford health insurance they would already have it.
My DD actually made the comment that if she finds she can't do this....she is just going to have to have an illegitimate child or two so she doesn't have to worry and can survive.
Yes, she meant that as a joke but sadly I find more truth to her line of thinking than not....kwim?
I don't have an answer to this problem but I don't feel it is right to force people into buying anything- you want this to be mandatory then add it to all US Americans and make it for basic coverage and anything above and beyond that private payed- Again I don't have an answer
Blackcat31 11:30 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by MyAngels:
I can't understand this line of reasoning. The American people don't get to vote for laws, only our representatives in Congress do, so whether there are or were hidden points kept from the American people is a moot point. As long as our representatives in Congress had access to the information, that's all that matters. When we vote for our representatives we trust them to do what's best for their constituencies. That's the democratic way.
If an overwhelming majority of people are adamantly against this law then it's their job to let their representatives know their views, whether it's by contacting them directly or by their votes at election time, or both.
I have contacted all of my representatives twice so far this week, and I'm sure I'll continue to do so as long as I'm unhappy with the way they're handling things. I personally know one of my representatives in the House and he has assured me that the majority of the representatives do get the information when their constituents contact them. He doesn't personally read every e-mail or letter, but his staff compiles the information so that he can keep abreast of what's going on in his district.
I am NOT really into politics at all and don't talk the talk. I really only have my personal opinion and the things (from both sides) that I've read to go on but I didn't literally mean American people like you and me....But I did mean that there was a lot of things in this bill that were hidden from those people I did elect to be my voice and that is NOT democratic in anyway. I can't understand this line of reasoning. The American people don't get to vote for laws, only our representatives in Congress do, so whether there are or were hidden points kept from the American people is a moot point. As long as our representatives in Congress had access to the information, that's all that matters. When we vote for our representatives we trust them to do what's best for their constituencies. That's the democratic way.
If an overwhelming majority of people are adamantly against this law then it's their job to let their representatives know their views, whether it's by contacting them directly or by their votes at election time, or both.
I have contacted all of my representatives twice so far this week, and I'm sure I'll continue to do so as long as I'm unhappy with the way they're handling things. I personally know one of my representatives in the House and he has assured me that the majority of the representatives do get the information when their constituents contact them. He doesn't personally read every e-mail or letter, but his staff compiles the information so that he can keep abreast of what's going on in his district.
I also only know how this affects myself and my family and what it means personally for me is that my children will still not be able to afford insurance but will now be penalized for not having it.
Something is just not right about that.
My3cents 11:38 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Depending on whether those people are consider ESSENTIAL or NON_ESSENTIAL.... I agree with John Stossel
Note* I have NO real idea but I've heard that the majority of people being laid off or out of jobs are in non-essential positions....
Can't help but wonder how many of those non-essential positions do we really NEED...
...even if that means a lot of those 48,880 people lose their jobs.
It sucks but I can totally think of several positions in my local government that are non-essential but cost tax payers a lot.
We have people who over see people who over see others over seeing workers.......I definitely think our government could downsize ALOT.
I completely agree with this.......but those people need jobs. We need jobs and no excuses of why people can't work. Need to teach the skills of hard work and reliability and be worth something to an employer other then just a number that can easily be replaced. Need to teach people to be good to other people and hold them of value. When people are valued they want to work hard for others. We live in such a disposable world. We need jobs for all skill levels, need to stop catering to just the rich and poor and look out for the middle hard worker.Depending on whether those people are consider ESSENTIAL or NON_ESSENTIAL.... I agree with John Stossel
Note* I have NO real idea but I've heard that the majority of people being laid off or out of jobs are in non-essential positions....
Can't help but wonder how many of those non-essential positions do we really NEED...
...even if that means a lot of those 48,880 people lose their jobs.
It sucks but I can totally think of several positions in my local government that are non-essential but cost tax payers a lot.
We have people who over see people who over see others over seeing workers.......I definitely think our government could downsize ALOT.
Play Care 11:40 AM 10-04-2013
Willow - credible meaning not an opinion piece from the Huffington post.
But I disagree with this
Maybe our diabetes/hypertension rates wouldn't be so high in certain communities if the population could afford to go to the clinic and get some preventative care.
But I disagree with this
Originally Posted by :
Socialized health care does not work and an overwhelming majority end up suffering endlessly for it
especially in light of the fact the populations of those countries routinely say they are happy/satisfied with the care they receive. I imagine if they, or family members were suffering their rates of satisfaction would diminish. I DO think there are flaws in the system - but again, there are flaws in any system. Almost 60% of Canadians claim they are happy with their system and only something like 20% of Americans say the same. Socialized health care does not work and an overwhelming majority end up suffering endlessly for it
Originally Posted by :
I don't think you can accurately compare one country to another in certain situations of illness/disease etc since every country has a different racial and cultural make up that greatly impacts/influences those statistics. kiwm?
On any forum the health care debate comes up on, it usually starts with the Americans saying they don't want a terrible "socialist" health system like Canada's. The Canadians come on and point out they like their health care, never had any real issues, or had a family member put to death by a death panel, etc. Then the argument becomes "well, we have a more diverse population or we have a greater population, etc." Which is very true. We do. But is that necessarily a reason why a single payer system wouldn't work here? I don't think you can accurately compare one country to another in certain situations of illness/disease etc since every country has a different racial and cultural make up that greatly impacts/influences those statistics. kiwm?
Maybe our diabetes/hypertension rates wouldn't be so high in certain communities if the population could afford to go to the clinic and get some preventative care.
My3cents 11:44 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
The penalty is not thousands of dollars. It goes into effect in 2014 and is 1% of income or $95 Adult, $47.50/child. In 2015, it goes up to 2% of income or $325 adult and $162.50/child with a maximum for family of $205. Blackcat - my daughter got her insurance through college because she couldn't be on ours. Do your children qualify to be on your insurance? I believe it is age 26 if college student. Your children should be calling the insurance exchange. I did a quick check and was happy to see the costs. This is the law of the land - upheld by the Supreme Court. No one likes change but holding a country hostage because you don't like the law is wrong.
so what does this penalty go for, what does it do? Is it going to figure out the health care issues? Is it going to take care of the people that don't have it? If that is the case it is showing that many people don't actually need it to begin with and or the bottom dollar line of being able to care for others is not as high as it is being made out to be or being forced upon us to pay- Many will end up paying the fine because they can't afford the difference......so what does this solve?The penalty is not thousands of dollars. It goes into effect in 2014 and is 1% of income or $95 Adult, $47.50/child. In 2015, it goes up to 2% of income or $325 adult and $162.50/child with a maximum for family of $205. Blackcat - my daughter got her insurance through college because she couldn't be on ours. Do your children qualify to be on your insurance? I believe it is age 26 if college student. Your children should be calling the insurance exchange. I did a quick check and was happy to see the costs. This is the law of the land - upheld by the Supreme Court. No one likes change but holding a country hostage because you don't like the law is wrong.
The law is very wrong on so many levels other then the few that can afford it and don't have to worry about it. I don't feel the shut down is right either
Willow 11:45 AM 10-04-2013
As I was reading through and discussing this with my husband he reminded me of a well publicised Canadian baby named Joseph Maraachli.
Essentially the CNHS told Joseph's patents that their was no cure or effective treatment for their sons degenerative condition and were *ordered* to consent to removing him from life support. Basically, they didn't think the baby's life was worth it and were tired of paying for and providing his care in the midst of an already swamped crunch of a health care system.
His parents right to make their own decisions for their child were completely ignored even despite appeals.
Ultimately they were able to somehow get him transferred to the United States so he could end his life the way his parents religious beliefs dictated.
It's a fight many in countries with socialized health care have to fight, but most not knowing if they can or how, typically succumb to.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Maraachli_case
Essentially the CNHS told Joseph's patents that their was no cure or effective treatment for their sons degenerative condition and were *ordered* to consent to removing him from life support. Basically, they didn't think the baby's life was worth it and were tired of paying for and providing his care in the midst of an already swamped crunch of a health care system.
His parents right to make their own decisions for their child were completely ignored even despite appeals.
Ultimately they were able to somehow get him transferred to the United States so he could end his life the way his parents religious beliefs dictated.
It's a fight many in countries with socialized health care have to fight, but most not knowing if they can or how, typically succumb to.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Maraachli_case
My3cents 11:52 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by TwinKristi:
This is what I've been reading and was told several times as well which is why it really isn't being FORCED! A whopping $95-695 fine on my taxes? WOW! I really don't think the fine is that big of a deal, its really more about people having the option to get healthcare who didn't before. Due to a pre-existing condition I haven't been able to get private insurance in years. We paid $800/mo for insurance for years and about 5 yrs ago when the economy was bad (dh is self-employed and I was staying home at the time) we finally had to give it up and just go without insurance. We made too much for state insurance and didn't make enough to afford it. So I find it silly how NOW that people have to see it in their face they want to complain about it. The whole insurance system is just as scandalous and messed up than our gov't is and if people sat down and added it up, I would imagine people would probably take the fine over the craptastic coverage being offered. I don't blame Obama though. This is just a stepping stone towards where we should be like Canada and other countries. But the American people don't want to be like Canada, we like our guns, we like our top-notch military and that's fine.
The years we went without insurance we were remarkably healthy and had very few visits. I think we had 1 ER visit for my then toddler and it was about $1500. We paid OOP for our dr visists and it was about $75/visit. Now its up to $181/visit for cash pay at our office but I know other offices who are still $65-100 for a cash visit. Say you go 12x a year... that's still WAY less than what you would pay for insurance coverage and add in co-pays and deductibles at their huge "insurance" rate. When I got a PT job I took the health insurance (which basically took my whole paycheck) and the coverage was horrible. Once we hit our max I saw a bill and the way it was charged and was in shock! I explained that our insurance hit its max coverage and if I could get a cash pay discount and when I compared the bills it was INSANE! They charged me $10 for a vaccine that they bill at $500 to the insurance!!!
So when you pay your 20% deductible, you're paying 20% of $500. Your insurance company only pays their negotiated rate of reimbursement. The whole thing just sickens me. Dh & I no longer have coverage but our kids do. We'll take the $190 fine over paying thousands for private coverage.
eta- I know that this doesn't take into consideration a horrific accident that would require a hospital stay and such, but there is emergency coverage for situations like this. Most hospitals will work with you on it if you don't have coverage. I was hospitalized in July and know how easily it can happen!
This is what I've been reading and was told several times as well which is why it really isn't being FORCED! A whopping $95-695 fine on my taxes? WOW!
I really don't think the fine is that big of a deal, its really more about people having the option to get healthcare who didn't before. Due to a pre-existing condition I haven't been able to get private insurance in years. We paid $800/mo for insurance for years and about 5 yrs ago when the economy was bad (dh is self-employed and I was staying home at the time) we finally had to give it up and just go without insurance. We made too much for state insurance and didn't make enough to afford it. So I find it silly how NOW that people have to see it in their face they want to complain about it. The whole insurance system is just as scandalous and messed up than our gov't is and if people sat down and added it up, I would imagine people would probably take the fine over the craptastic coverage being offered. I don't blame Obama though. This is just a stepping stone towards where we should be like Canada and other countries. But the American people don't want to be like Canada, we like our guns, we like our top-notch military and that's fine. The years we went without insurance we were remarkably healthy and had very few visits. I think we had 1 ER visit for my then toddler and it was about $1500. We paid OOP for our dr visists and it was about $75/visit. Now its up to $181/visit for cash pay at our office but I know other offices who are still $65-100 for a cash visit. Say you go 12x a year... that's still WAY less than what you would pay for insurance coverage and add in co-pays and deductibles at their huge "insurance" rate. When I got a PT job I took the health insurance (which basically took my whole paycheck) and the coverage was horrible. Once we hit our max I saw a bill and the way it was charged and was in shock! I explained that our insurance hit its max coverage and if I could get a cash pay discount and when I compared the bills it was INSANE! They charged me $10 for a vaccine that they bill at $500 to the insurance!!!
So when you pay your 20% deductible, you're paying 20% of $500. Your insurance company only pays their negotiated rate of reimbursement. The whole thing just sickens me. Dh & I no longer have coverage but our kids do. We'll take the $190 fine over paying thousands for private coverage.eta- I know that this doesn't take into consideration a horrific accident that would require a hospital stay and such, but there is emergency coverage for situations like this. Most hospitals will work with you on it if you don't have coverage. I was hospitalized in July and know how easily it can happen!
my point...so what does making it mandatory fix?
My3cents 11:55 AM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Willow:
Exactly.
Your sons predicament is the exact scenario that's going to nail all of middle class America too. It's just terrible.
As far as the individuals here who have never heard the downfalls of socialized health care in not quite sure how to respond to that. The information out there about how people have to wait months or even years just to get in to see a doctor, regardless of emergent need is ASTOUNDING. Not to mention the fact that if the powers that be think your life is not worthy of saving they will simply deny your access to any care at all.......it's all incredibly well publicized and documented.
thats why much of Canada was coming down to USA for care-Exactly.
Your sons predicament is the exact scenario that's going to nail all of middle class America too. It's just terrible.
As far as the individuals here who have never heard the downfalls of socialized health care in not quite sure how to respond to that. The information out there about how people have to wait months or even years just to get in to see a doctor, regardless of emergent need is ASTOUNDING. Not to mention the fact that if the powers that be think your life is not worthy of saving they will simply deny your access to any care at all.......it's all incredibly well publicized and documented.
MotherNature 12:20 PM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
The penalty is not thousands of dollars. It goes into effect in 2014 and is 1% of income or $95 Adult, $47.50/child. In 2015, it goes up to 2% of income or $325 adult and $162.50/child with a maximum for family of $205. Blackcat - my daughter got her insurance through college because she couldn't be on ours. Do your children qualify to be on your insurance? I believe it is age 26 if college student. Your children should be calling the insurance exchange. I did a quick check and was happy to see the costs. This is the law of the land - upheld by the Supreme Court. No one likes change but holding a country hostage because you don't like the law is wrong.
Exactly what I was going to say. My college agers are on my insurance, & I believe that with the ACA, our rates go down for better coverage.The penalty is not thousands of dollars. It goes into effect in 2014 and is 1% of income or $95 Adult, $47.50/child. In 2015, it goes up to 2% of income or $325 adult and $162.50/child with a maximum for family of $205. Blackcat - my daughter got her insurance through college because she couldn't be on ours. Do your children qualify to be on your insurance? I believe it is age 26 if college student. Your children should be calling the insurance exchange. I did a quick check and was happy to see the costs. This is the law of the land - upheld by the Supreme Court. No one likes change but holding a country hostage because you don't like the law is wrong.
craftymissbeth 12:26 PM 10-04-2013
Does anyone know if when you go to healthcare.gov and begin the application process can you view the offered options and then save it for later? Or are you required to make the decision then and there?
Blackcat31 01:09 PM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
Does anyone know if when you go to healthcare.gov and begin the application process can you view the offered options and then save it for later? Or are you required to make the decision then and there?
When I went to that site, I choose my state. It sent me to my state's site. Does anyone know if when you go to healthcare.gov and begin the application process can you view the offered options and then save it for later? Or are you required to make the decision then and there?
From there I was able to see all the different plans and prices WITHOUT having to enroll or fill anything out.
It said once I was ready to apply to click a different button but I was able to see and compare BEFORE applying.
HTH
Play Care 01:13 PM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by My3cents:
thats why much of Canada was coming down to USA for care-
That's actually not true. I'll see if I can pull it up, but hospitals near the border of Canada report that they rarely, if ever have Canadians come in for health care. We may view their health service as "failing" but overall they are happy with it (according to what I've read). Bottom line, they are not carpooling over the border to pay out of pocket for health care.thats why much of Canada was coming down to USA for care-
Willow 01:13 PM 10-04-2013
Re
Not to mention the fact that the coverage options for Obamacare are just terrible. The bare bones minimum bronze plan covers only 60% of approved services. If people can't afford the coverage itself, much less all that isn't covered, how is that going to improve your private premiums?
Originally Posted by MotherNature:
Exactly what I was going to say. My college agers are on my insurance, & I believe that with the ACA, our rates go down for better coverage.
If that is not what's happened in other countries, what makes you think that's going to happen here?Exactly what I was going to say. My college agers are on my insurance, & I believe that with the ACA, our rates go down for better coverage.
Not to mention the fact that the coverage options for Obamacare are just terrible. The bare bones minimum bronze plan covers only 60% of approved services. If people can't afford the coverage itself, much less all that isn't covered, how is that going to improve your private premiums?
Willow 01:16 PM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Play Care:
That's actually not true. I'll see if I can pull it up, but hospitals near the border of Canada report that they rarely, if ever have Canadians come in for health care. We may view their health service as "failing" but overall they are happy with it (according to what I've read). Bottom line, they are not carpooling over the border to pay out of pocket for health care.
I'm still waiting for some documentation for everything you're writing. Anyone can say That's actually not true. I'll see if I can pull it up, but hospitals near the border of Canada report that they rarely, if ever have Canadians come in for health care. We may view their health service as "failing" but overall they are happy with it (according to what I've read). Bottom line, they are not carpooling over the border to pay out of pocket for health care.
they've heard and read anything but where?
craftymissbeth 01:26 PM 10-04-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
When I went to that site, I choose my state. It sent me to my state's site.
From there I was able to see all the different plans and prices WITHOUT having to enroll or fill anything out.
It said once I was ready to apply to click a different button but I was able to see and compare BEFORE applying.
HTH
oh ok... I was afraid to get on there and try it out, but finally got the courage to look When I went to that site, I choose my state. It sent me to my state's site.
From there I was able to see all the different plans and prices WITHOUT having to enroll or fill anything out.
It said once I was ready to apply to click a different button but I was able to see and compare BEFORE applying.
HTH
It looks like in my state I can enroll directly from healthcare.gov... but I'm afraid to enter my info in there
