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Parents and Guardians Forum>Would This Upset You?
Shane 12:53 PM 01-28-2011
So I found out the other day that our child care provider posted something on facebook regarding how fussy are 6 month old was all morning along the lines of "nothing better than dealing with a fussy 6 month old all day. We are friends with our provider, but do not have facebook, but several of our shared friends do. Should I be upset this? We are starting to get concerned because there are many days where she just seems to be frustrated when we pick up our kids and she has already said she can't do it next year (she said she had other reasons). I'm thinking it may be time to just change, but I'm concerned with how she will react as I believe they need the money.

I should note that I'm not concerned at the time for my kids safety, but just worried that they are being watched by somebody that is miserable half the time.
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Cat Herder 01:08 PM 01-28-2011
Originally Posted by Shane:
they need the money.
worried that they are being watched by somebody that is miserable half the time.
I am sorry to say so, but this is not a good mixture IMHO.

Trust your gut.
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DCMomOf3 01:10 PM 01-28-2011
I am totally with Catherder on this. I would trust your gut. If it were me, I'd be concerned and would personally find a new provider.

Best of luck!
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jen 01:11 PM 01-28-2011
Was she your friend before she was your provider? Either way I guess, you consider her a friend now, so I'd just start by talking to her.

I don't know if I'd be upset abou the facebook thing, unless of course it was mean spirited! I would never post about my daycare clients, but I would post about my own kids...maybe she thinks of yours, like hers?
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Jewels 01:31 PM 01-28-2011
I would be super irritated about this......And I bet shes burned out, and your child is probably not getting the TLC they really need. Everyone has rough days, But I would never show my parents if I were frustrated, if I'm so frustrated that I can't hide it, thats pretty bad, and I wouldn't want my child there.
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Shane 01:46 PM 01-28-2011
Originally Posted by Jewels:
I would be super irritated about this......And I bet shes burned out, and your child is probably not getting the TLC they really need. Everyone has rough days, But I would never show my parents if I were frustrated, if I'm so frustrated that I can't hide it, thats pretty bad, and I wouldn't want my child there.
That is where we are kinda at. A lot of the times when she has had a bad day, she can come off really bad. There have been a few times when the first thing she says is "your oldest was horrible today". But then she really doesn't have much else to say other than maybe he pushed one of her kids for a toy or something like that. She'll look like she just wants to get the kids out of her sight. But other days when she is in a better mood she won't make a big deal out of a pushing incident. I think because we are friends she probably doesn't treat us the way she would another family when it comes to communicating.
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Michael 01:52 PM 01-28-2011
Originally Posted by Shane:
That is where we are kinda at. A lot of the times when she has had a bad day, she can come off really bad. There have been a few times when the first thing she says is "your oldest was horrible today". But then she really doesn't have much else to say other than maybe he pushed one of her kids for a toy or something like that. She'll look like she just wants to get the kids out of her sight. But other days when she is in a better mood she won't make a big deal out of a pushing incident. I think because we are friends she probably doesn't treat us the way she would another family when it comes to communicating.
Welcome to the Daycare.com Forum Shane!
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MissAnn 02:22 PM 01-28-2011
Originally Posted by Shane:
So I found out the other day that our child care provider posted something on facebook regarding how fussy are 6 month old was all morning along the lines of "nothing better than dealing with a fussy 6 month old all day. We are friends with our provider, but do not have facebook, but several of our shared friends do. Should I be upset this? We are starting to get concerned because there are many days where she just seems to be frustrated when we pick up our kids and she has already said she can't do it next year (she said she had other reasons). I'm thinking it may be time to just change, but I'm concerned with how she will react as I believe they need the money.

I should note that I'm not concerned at the time for my kids safety, but just worried that they are being watched by somebody that is miserable half the time.
That is not acceptable. I have a preschool in my home and I also have a facebook page for my program. Parents signed a release for me to post photos and they choose they want the pictures tagged or not. I only say positive things....never ever anything negative. Maybe you could just talk to her about it....ask her to not say anything on FB about your child....or only positive.
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MissAnn 02:24 PM 01-28-2011
"your oldest was horrible today".

I have never ever ever said anything like this to a parent. That is not acceptable. If that was said in front on your child...then shame on her.
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JenNJ 02:26 PM 01-28-2011
Find a new provider NOW. Before her frustration gets the best of her. Your primary concern should be your baby, not her financial situation.
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Candyland 12:23 PM 02-03-2011
I'm with everyone else...find someone new. She has too much time on her hands to be posting things like this. and it's obvious, she's frustrated.
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lvt77 12:32 PM 02-03-2011
I am in the middle of the road on this..

From her perspective maybe she had a really bad day and felt the need to vent about it... All of us do it on here, she just did it on face book..

I dont know anything about FB, so I am not too sure if that was the right place to vent. Would you feel the same way if you read it on here??

If so, then we are all guilty of it....
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dEHmom 12:49 PM 02-03-2011
I agree, that friendship and business should not mix. Maybe she feels like she is comfortable enough to be open with you, and finds that maybe she doesn't have to have a smile on her face whens he hands off your kids.

BUT I don't think that is acceptable at all.

On the facebook side of it, she obviously knows that if she writes that, it will get back to you. I mean, if you have mutual friends, and she knows you're not on there, she knows someone else is. So, I don't think she would've thought better of posting it had you actually been a friend of hers on facebook.

I definitely think, it should be discussed in a professional, mature, and respectful manner. And let her know you've found care elsewhere, or that you will be looking elsewhere.
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QualiTcare 04:52 PM 02-03-2011
i don't know - i think it's pretty common to say things like "oh, don't you just love a fussy baby" or "my kids are driving me crazy"

i guess it depends on the context - one person can say "i'm gonna kill myself" and it means nothing and another person says "i'm gonna kill myself" and they really do it.

i don't think without knowing the person that we can say she is frustrated based on a post like that - but if you think she seems frustrated otherwise then i'd def. find other care.
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jen 06:53 AM 02-04-2011
Originally Posted by QualiTcare:
i don't know - i think it's pretty common to say things like "oh, don't you just love a fussy baby" or "my kids are driving me crazy"

i guess it depends on the context - one person can say "i'm gonna kill myself" and it means nothing and another person says "i'm gonna kill myself" and they really do it.

i don't think without knowing the person that we can say she is frustrated based on a post like that - but if you think she seems frustrated otherwise then i'd def. find other care.
I handed over one of my kiddos last night and said...

"Good luck to you, you will need it!"

My parents know me, know the kid can be a handful, and know that regardless of the fact that he can drive me, his parents, and his grandparents nuts from time to time, we still like/love him and it wasn't meant with disrespect. Like Q said, it's all about the context.
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kendallina 09:57 AM 02-04-2011
Her comment about your 6-month old and the comment about your older child is out of line and unprofessional. Comments like that do nothing to help children and do nothing to promote a relationship with parents. They only serve to get out a provider's frustration and there are better ways to deal with that. Much more constructive would have been to give concrete examples of what happened that day so that the parent can deal with it (in the case of an older child misbehaving) or at least be forewarned.

So, to answer your question, yes, it would upset me greatly. A daycare provider who cannot even be professional in front of parents may not be professional when she's working with children or when she's with her friends dishing about her parents. I would not feel comfortable working with someone like that.

ETA: I am good friends with a couple of my parents and I never would comment about about a child 'being horrible today'. Just like any other parent, I would tell them specifically what happened and how I dealt with it. It is very possible to have friends in your business, but you can't act like you're friends when you're talking about business things. There is still a level of professionalism that needs to be maintained.
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DanceMom 11:09 AM 02-04-2011
No the FB thing would not upset me. My parents know when I have had a bad day..everyone had bad days at the jobs. It takes a saint to do our jobs and to be all happy lovey all the time is impossible esp when your dealing with infants and toddlers.
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JenNJ 01:50 PM 02-04-2011
Its not the fb comment that worries me. Its that she often sees her provider frustrated at the end of the day. She said is friends with her provider so She can read her well. You need to find a new place foe your child. Your provider is telling you and showing you she can't handle this - believe her.
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marniewon 12:32 PM 02-05-2011
No, it wouldn't upset me. Now if she said something like: this kid is driving me crazy, or if this kid doesn't stop I'm going to lose it, or something along the lines of anything that make it seem like she is frustrated to the point of hurting the child, than yes, it would upset me and I would pull them. Just saying how great it is to deal with a fussy 6mo old sounds perfectly normal to me. How many parents post things like that about their own children?!?

If she is so frustrated, has she shared why? Have you discussed why he is fussy and tried to work together to solve the problem? I'd be more concerned about why he is fussy all the time there. Sometimes parents do things, out of their love for their child, that we as providers cannot do, and that makes things harder on provider and child. The things I'm talking about are: rocking them to sleep, letting them sleep in a carseat/swing/vibrating seat, etc, holding them during nap, putting them down for nap with a bottle, picking child up at first whimper, etc. Some of these things we cannot do, as we have other children in our care and need to attend to their needs also, and some are just downright dangerous and against licensing rules. If you are doing any of these things, please realize that you are making it harder for your child, and for your provider. That's just asking for frustration right there.

My advice would be to sit down and talk to your provider. Tell her that it seems to you that she is getting frustrated with your child and ask if there's anything you can do to help. Offer to work with her on whatever she thinks would help (within reason, of course). Unless you are planning to leave, let her know that you are happy with her services, and want to make sure that she is happy also. If she suggests doing something that you are not ready for or comfortable with (like not rocking to sleep), then let her know that, and give your notice.

As far as fb, I've been tempted, at my most frustrated, to say something along the same lines! But....even though I don't have any dc parents as friends on fb, I stop to think if I really want that type of status (negative) going out to the (my) world and go vent somewhere a little more private. Sometimes just the act of venting is calming enough to get through the rest of the day without frustration.
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Shane 08:19 AM 02-07-2011
Well, we ended up pulling the kids out. We tried not to get into all the reasons and basically told her we needed to try a new daycare before the end of the year to see if it would work for next year. We offered two weeks extra pay because of the short notice, but she refused to take it when my wife tried to give it to her that night. She didn't say more than a few words to my wife that night and had most of the kids stuff waiting outside for her. We haven't spoken to her since. My wife is more than a little upset now as just recently a friend her that this lady spanked our kid one day when he wasn't behaving. This was something that was never discussed before and she never told us about it when it happened. Our only regret now is that we didn't make a change sooner.
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JenNJ 09:51 AM 02-07-2011
I'm glad that you got the kids out of a bad situation.
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lvt77 10:08 AM 02-07-2011
Originally Posted by Shane:
Well, we ended up pulling the kids out. We tried not to get into all the reasons and basically told her we needed to try a new daycare before the end of the year to see if it would work for next year. We offered two weeks extra pay because of the short notice, but she refused to take it when my wife tried to give it to her that night. She didn't say more than a few words to my wife that night and had most of the kids stuff waiting outside for her. We haven't spoken to her since. My wife is more than a little upset now as just recently a friend her that this lady spanked our kid one day when he wasn't behaving. This was something that was never discussed before and she never told us about it when it happened. Our only regret now is that we didn't make a change sooner.
Holy cow spanking? that is against the law...daycare providers are not allowed to punish kids with physical discipline... I would report this


glad you made a wise decision to move your kids.... dont beat yourself up over it, just know that you did what you could and you went with your gut feeling. In this case it was right......
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kendallina 10:18 AM 02-07-2011
Originally Posted by Shane:
Well, we ended up pulling the kids out. We tried not to get into all the reasons and basically told her we needed to try a new daycare before the end of the year to see if it would work for next year. We offered two weeks extra pay because of the short notice, but she refused to take it when my wife tried to give it to her that night. She didn't say more than a few words to my wife that night and had most of the kids stuff waiting outside for her. We haven't spoken to her since. My wife is more than a little upset now as just recently a friend her that this lady spanked our kid one day when he wasn't behaving. This was something that was never discussed before and she never told us about it when it happened. Our only regret now is that we didn't make a change sooner.
Nice to hear the update, glad you pulled them out,it definitely seems like the right decision. And, yehhh...spanking is NOT allowed in a daycare home. I would report this to the licensing agency immediately. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this.
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Unregistered 10:41 PM 02-13-2011
I completely agree with all the other posts regarding finding a new provider because of the circumstances; however I have a different opinion regarding your provider seeming miserable. I worked as a full time nanny with 4 children ages 2mos, 2 yrs, 6 yrs, and 7 yrs. and before I came along there were no rules in the house, so naturally my day was exhausting. I wasn't miserable during the day with the children, because I love being with kids, but when mom returned home I usually looked and felt like I ran a marathon that day. The best part was, she understood. She knew more then anyone else that her kids were a handful. Not having a bright, cheerful smile on her face when you picked your children up was most likely not an indication of being miserable, but more along the lines of the relief of her day being over. If someone looks exhausted after a day with your kids, its because they spent a day with kids. We are in the childcare business because we love kids, not because kids are easy!
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Unregistered 09:07 AM 02-17-2011
Very unprofessional of her to post on face book. In this job you never know who is listening, or reading or posting something. As a provider I try very hard not to burn any bridges. Posting on facebook is a big mistake b /c its such a public forum. I would trust your gut! Some people just werent meant to be in dc!
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momatheart 11:38 AM 02-17-2011
I never VENT on FB probably because I know FB is not my Diary!
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Crystal 02:23 PM 02-17-2011
Originally Posted by lvt77:
I am in the middle of the road on this..

From her perspective maybe she had a really bad day and felt the need to vent about it... All of us do it on here, she just did it on face book..

I dont know anything about FB, so I am not too sure if that was the right place to vent. Would you feel the same way if you read it on here??

If so, then we are all guilty of it....
yep....I see it here all the time. The internet is open to the wolrd. If you do not want someone to "hear" what you are saying, it's best not to put it out there. I'm surprised that some of the people here who are saying get out of there now are many of the same people who talk about their DCK and parents here regularly.
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Unregistered 08:16 AM 02-18-2011
I'm glad you feel good about removing your children. I hope it works out for the best for all involved.

I do however feel a bit sad for your provider/friend and the relationship that you have most likely lost. Being as you guys were friends before anything else, you should have of sat down and had a nice conversation with her regarding your concerns etc.

Posting on FB wasn't horrible... she didn't post your kids name or a picture of her being fussy... she was just sharing in a non harmful way. Saying your kid was horrible that one day... again, I don't think that is so bad, especially if you are friends. Kids can be horrible... why is it such a bad thing to share that with you??

Spanking. Did you child share this with you? How did the other parent know?? Are you certain it was a 'spanking' and not a little puch on the butt??? BIG DIFFERENCE.

Again. Hope this works out for all. But yes I am sad for you and your friend for as poorly as this was handled.
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Unregistered 08:58 AM 02-18-2011
Originally Posted by Crystal:
yep....I see it here all the time. The internet is open to the wolrd. If you do not want someone to "hear" what you are saying, it's best not to put it out there. I'm surprised that some of the people here who are saying get out of there now are many of the same people who talk about their DCK and parents here regularly.
Exactly. Everyone is guilty of what they are saying to run from.

This whole situation is sad as I am certain a good friendship was lost. I'm sure your friend would have of appreciated you actually talking to HER about this first before a bunch of strangers.
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MommyMuffin 02:36 PM 02-18-2011
Glad to hear your child will get to bond with another provider instead of changing later.

I will not post anything negative about my job on FB. That is completely unprofessional IMHO. If I do say something it is positive and does not include any childrens names.

I think some providers want to protray a professional.."this is a real job" image but others may not take it as seriously.

To be perfectly honest I would be pissed if a daycare provider wrote anything about my child on FB. I would not care if the provider did not use my childs name...if I knew they were talking about him/her in a neg way I would be upset. I am the one who will decide what pictures and information and comments are on the internet regarding my child. Sorry I'm getting a little heated. Did I mention that I HATE FB!
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MommyMuffin 02:42 PM 02-18-2011
Originally Posted by Crystal:
yep....I see it here all the time. The internet is open to the wolrd. If you do not want someone to "hear" what you are saying, it's best not to put it out there. I'm surprised that some of the people here who are saying get out of there now are many of the same people who talk about their DCK and parents here regularly.
Lots of providers use the site to explain about situations or frustrations about their day and/or children in order to learn tips and techniques to better their work.
FB is not full of other daycare providers to run ideas and problems off of. But providers are "venting" on a daycare website in order to learn more or see if others have similar issues.

Not everyone has good intentions I agree with you, but its no fun to make "rolleyes" and attack previous posters even if not using their names. JMHO
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Crystal 04:34 PM 02-18-2011
Originally Posted by MommyMuffin:
Lots of providers use the site to explain about situations or frustrations about their day and/or children in order to learn tips and techniques to better their work.
FB is not full of other daycare providers to run ideas and problems off of. But providers are "venting" on a daycare website in order to learn more or see if others have similar issues.

Not everyone has good intentions I agree with you, but its no fun to make "rolleyes" and attack previous posters even if not using their names. JMHO
You're right, this is different than FB, BUT, it is just as public, actually even moreso. At least on FB it can be set to private. Here it is open for EVERONE in the WORLD to read, and there have been numerous instances of providers being "caught" talking negatively about parents and children HERE. So, doing it HERE is even WORSE than FB. And it happens so much HERE that I rarely visit/post here anymore because of the lack of professionalism and the disgusting things many providers HERE have to say about children and families.
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Crystal 04:43 PM 02-18-2011
I need to add to Shane that yes, your provider was wrong to express her feelings on FB. But, at least you know and were able to make a change that you felt was needed.
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Aya477 07:56 AM 02-24-2011
Originally Posted by Crystal:
You're right, this is different than FB, BUT, it is just as public, actually even moreso. At least on FB it can be set to private. Here it is open for EVERONE in the WORLD to read, and there have been numerous instances of providers being "caught" talking negatively about parents and children HERE. So, doing it HERE is even WORSE than FB. And it happens so much HERE that I rarely visit/post here anymore because of the lack of professionalism and the disgusting things many providers HERE have to say about children and families.
Crystal--I agree with you. I too read alot of the negative remarks made about parents and children on this very forum. Whether the provider is intending to vent, seek guidance, or talk of a particular situation the negative remarks do lead a reader to question "is this provider burned out? Does this provider have the self control to separate her frustration when dealing with the child(ren)?". It's human nature to try to form an opinion about personalities or people based off what is written by someone who is nothing more than a screen name on the internet. And when certain screen names are routinely posting vents or situations that make you want to say "why in the world would you do that?" sure--it is easy to conclude that you wouldn't be comfortable placing your own child in that person's care.

As a side note--my family, friends and husband do not understand what I do at work. I still vent to them because they don't have to understand what I do 8-5 M-F to make me feel better or give me guidance on how to handle people and situations. Childcare shouldn't be any different.
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dEHmom 09:29 AM 02-24-2011
I just want to say a few things....

this is the world wide web, and people need to realize, that even though we do not use our actual names, they can possibly be traced back to you if you have/do provide certain information....

Such as the whole websites we posted, linking us to our names, email address, addresses, and phone numbers.

But what we do on here is not the same as what we do on facebook. Everyone on facebook is on there as a friend, and based on your privacy settings on facebook, everyone, somepeople, or no one will be able to read or say anything.

The situation the op posted was that a friend of theirs saw something on facebook, and informed them, being they didn't actually see it themselves. So it could have been misinterpreted easily.

I don't think it was a matter of the facebook that caused concern over pulling the child so much as the comment about the child being physically punished/disciplined. That is why we all stepped in saying child should be removed.


On another note....

This website is a great resource for EVERYONE, parents and caregivers alike. Sometimes maybe we post a situation and give too much detail, or we come off in the wrong context, maybe seems like we are on the verge of a mental breakdown, but really we are just at our wits end with the situation itself and need someone to help us out.

My dh has actually told me "i don't care" or "i don't know what to say" or "stop complaining" etc. I don't have a support net at home. I don't have family members who would understand or be able to offer advice I could actually use.

This website is the only place I can go for support, vents, information, advice, etc. So although it is touch and go, in terms of keeping the information to a minimum so as not to expose our true identity but enough information to get the proper guidance, it's not right that we are being told that we are all wrong for posting anything.

I would never post a status on facebook. I feel that is inappropriate in every way about a daycare client or their child. But I would come here and post for whatever reason.
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Meeko 12:09 PM 03-05-2011
Originally Posted by Shane:
So I found out the other day that our child care provider posted something on facebook regarding how fussy are 6 month old was all morning along the lines of "nothing better than dealing with a fussy 6 month old all day. We are friends with our provider, but do not have facebook, but several of our shared friends do. Should I be upset this? We are starting to get concerned because there are many days where she just seems to be frustrated when we pick up our kids and she has already said she can't do it next year (she said she had other reasons). I'm thinking it may be time to just change, but I'm concerned with how she will react as I believe they need the money.

I should note that I'm not concerned at the time for my kids safety, but just worried that they are being watched by somebody that is miserable half the time.
If she didn't mention you or your child's name in her Facebook moan, then there is nothing you can do. She was merely having a bad day and had a perfect right to vent to her friends.

I personally would not do it because if you have friends that are all interconnected somehow, there is a chance you could offend someone. But there's really nothing you can do. Her life and she has a right to moan about it.
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EightIsEnuff 08:11 AM 03-11-2011
I don't agree with what she did, but please remember that she doesn't have a co-worker, cubicle mate, or water cooler friends to vent to. Daycare providers have adult-free days which can be good AND bad. Things can build up inside (maybe another family is consistently picking up late, or another family is sending their sick child...etc.) If she seems frustrated when you pick up, just ask her - "everything go ok with little Johnny today?" And let her know that if she is ever frustrated to a point that she's ready to tear her hair out (because YES - that happens) that she can call you and you'll try to get out of work a little early to pick up your little one.

Obviously I'm a daycare provider, but my kids were also in daycare for a few years so I understand both sides. Good luck!
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Cat Herder 07:52 AM 03-13-2011
Eh, the ComplaintBook post had nothing to do with my opinion. It was just irrelevant white noise, IMHO.

I heard she was under high stress, needed the income and wanted to close her daycare.

Someone who is only caring for kids because she needs the income and seems to resent the children over an extended period of time (not a bad day here and there) is a ticking time bomb, IMHO.

I have 3 other trades I can go into...I prefer this one, YKWIM?

Kids keep me from believing the world needs to end some days....

An all adult world is sad, unimaginative and angry...and I don't like it...

All kidding aside, those are big "Red Flag" warning signs to me....
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Maddy'sMommy 08:20 AM 03-13-2011
All too often in my old job people who worked for me, or for other managers in the building would add me to facebook, and then I would see them complaining about work, the company, or their boss. Some would even post that they were calling in sick to go party, or go shopping. It's not a good idea, no matter which field you work in.

It's hard to know what to do when you come across something like that. There are so many factors to think about. Daycare is difficult, because it is a business, and you do have a business relationship with people, but they are dealing with the most precious thing in the world to you, so you can't help but let emotion guide you.

I realize there is no advice in there anywhere. lol. But food for thought.
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krystamichelle 09:40 AM 03-16-2011
I would never post anything about my DCK on FB. I think it's unprofessional and unnecessary. The parents understand that sometimes the kids aren't angels, and if I have had any issues, I will let the parent know how the day went. In fact, she asks, and I do it anyway. I think it's a better situation if you can do it openly. If I have to vent because it wasn't enough to just tell the parents, I talk to my fiance, in the privacy of our home. I know that people can choose who they tell things to on FB, but those people have friends who see their comments, and so on. It could eventually get back to the parents of the children and cause some tension or hurt feelings.

That said, though I am new to daycare.com, I have already asked for advice as to how to handle certain situations. It's not that I want to hide anything from the parents, but that I want to know the best way to handle certain situations that involve communicating with the parents.

As far as pulling the child out for that, I would probably not do that as a parent. For the spanking, I definitely would. That's pretty disturbing.
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squareone 12:57 PM 03-16-2011
[quote=krystamichelle;93922]
That said, though I am new to daycare.com, I have already asked for advice as to how to handle certain situations. It's not that I want to hide anything from the parents, but that I want to know the best way to handle certain situations that involve communicating with the parents.
[quote]

welcome krystamichelle!
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Christian Mother 09:19 PM 03-16-2011
ok...I'm guilty....I can't resist posting up "good" comments and pictures of my dck's and them doing projects or cute little sayings...specially if they ate some veggies they normally won't touch. I am sooo proud of my kido's and love them to pieces...I just can't stand it I want the whole world to know...It might not be to profession...thank goodness the parents are ok...but I agree...there is nothing negative ever posted on fb. It's not necessary. Everyone has a bad day...even kids and providers. I tell my parents that too..if little johnny had a bad day parents know about it and i go into length as to what happened and how I handled it. Most of the time the parents have noticed some kind of behavior of same sort at home and we keep tabs on it. We work through it. I am surprised that this provider and OP wasn't able to communicate a little better. I am an open book. I don't sugar coat anything. I would question her about the spanking. Was there anytime in changing your child's diaper that you saw marks on the bottom? I can't believe this is just being brought up now. If I ever saw a provider spank a child that parent would know right away...didn't matter friend or neighbor or what ever..not good!!
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Tags:bad environmant, bad providers
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