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Chatter Box 03:49 PM 03-28-2013
Got to thinking about my post last week and just been thinking about it a lot. A what point do you determine neglect is possibly occurring and something you should report? Not sure that I really have enough evidence or that this situation really warrants it but I just don't really know where that line is defined? when do you say... "Ok there is something not right here?"

I am legally not licensed.

Anyone ever had to call? What happened and at what point did you know you had to call?
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SilverSabre25 04:01 PM 03-28-2013
without any other information, I would say that the best move is probably to call CPS and ask if what you're seeing constitutes neglect/warrants a report or investigation. Or report and let them determine.

Can you give us a little more information about what you're seeing? I can move this to the members only forum if you want.
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Chatter Box 04:27 PM 03-28-2013
Here is the thread

https://www.daycare.com/forum/showthread.php?t=60878

The saga continues in that thread over days so you'd have to read it all.

It's just a lot of drama for something I don't have a ton of evidence on. I suspect more is going on than I'm aware of. I feel like something is not right but I have not a lot to back it up. To have a family po'ed at me over a gut feeling may not be the best move. I just can't help wondering if I could somehow get in trouble.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 04:32 PM 03-28-2013
I would always error on the side of caution. Just because you call doesn't mean anything will happen to the family.

My adopted son had CPS over investigating his neglected/abusive childhood many times throughout it before we hired a private attorney and got him. CPS never took him, or his older sister, out of their mother's care even though they NEEDED to have been removed.
All of that to say, just because you call doesn't mean the child will be removed and the family's life will be in upheaval. They will simply investigate. Some cities are better than others at investigating...
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SilverSabre25 05:32 PM 03-28-2013
ooohhhh, okay that one. Yeah. I would probably call. I was thinking neglect actually while that whole situation was going down.

Just know that you may lose the client.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 05:34 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
ooohhhh, okay that one. Yeah. I would probably call. I was thinking neglect actually while that whole situation was going down.

Just know that you may lose the client.
I think she was done with the client anyways (from what I gathered when I just read the thread)!
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EAP 06:13 PM 03-28-2013
If you are really concerned call it in and let the agency decide if it warrants an investigation. I read the thread from the original incident and I doubt this is an isolated event. That being said on the surface it doesn't read as medical neglect (not knowing all the facts). But the family might have a CPS history you never know. It is crappy parenting no matter what but it depends on the actual laws if it is neglect.
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lefdaly711 06:55 PM 03-28-2013
Its funny that I see this post after just gone to a "Mandated reporter for child abuse" workshop tonight. I learned something interesting. Whatever the situation is, is it neglect or poor parenting?? Thats what the case worker wanted us to understand. She used the word impact. If a child comes in with a full diaper everyday but has no diaper rash, thats no impact and you dont have enough of a problem to call over something like that BUT if the child has a blistering rash you do have the right to call because the child was impacted. The worker basically told us, that anything you have facts about you can call. She said in terms of odd bruises, be on the look out for different stories from mom and dad may tell you. Well.....I hope this helps. Not even sure if this relates to your situation but I feel like I gained some knowledge tonight. I learned that I dont have neglect cases in my DC but I do have some "poor parenting" situations
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AmyKidsCo 07:55 PM 03-28-2013
lefdaly711, Thanks for your comment! It hadn't occurred to me before to make a distinction between poor parenting and actual neglect. I hope I never go down that road, but it's good to know.
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Chatter Box 08:43 PM 03-28-2013
Originally Posted by lefdaly711:
Its funny that I see this post after just gone to a "Mandated reporter for child abuse" workshop tonight. I learned something interesting. Whatever the situation is, is it neglect or poor parenting?? Thats what the case worker wanted us to understand. She used the word impact. If a child comes in with a full diaper everyday but has no diaper rash, thats no impact and you dont have enough of a problem to call over something like that BUT if the child has a blistering rash you do have the right to call because the child was impacted. The worker basically told us, that anything you have facts about you can call. She said in terms of odd bruises, be on the look out for different stories from mom and dad may tell you. Well.....I hope this helps. Not even sure if this relates to your situation but I feel like I gained some knowledge tonight. I learned that I dont have neglect cases in my DC but I do have some "poor parenting" situations
That's just it I guess. Dirty clothing is not really impacting the child. However there are all these grey areas with this situation. If I've watched this child since October/November and I'm not real sure what is going on how is CPS really going to be able to determine everything.

They obviously can't rely on the parent to be truthful because she's not even saying truthful things to my face when she knows that we both know the truth with some things... such as when she stated that she made the doctor's appointment BECAUSE her child was sick however that is not what occurred. She was postponing taking her daughter to the doctor until her wellness visit that was scheduled long before the illness.

It's one of those things. With certain things we both knew the truth but she found ways to twist the reality of it into something that was not really what happened. Honestly, I think without evidence it's all her word against mine and to be truthful she would make a really good lawyer....or salesmen.

They aren't beating her. She doesn't come with bruises but I did have concerns initially when she started that they weren't feeding her nearly enough. That issue was addressed. i did talk to them eventually about it because while i could do whatever i wanted in mu home it didnt help her when she went home and she made mountains worth of improvement since she had been here right off the bat. She does seem to be eating a regular diet now and as much as she needs to at home now. Shes on regular table foods. Her motor skills however I believe are lacking due to a lack of nutrition that she got before she came here. She seems a little developmentally behind in her motor skills (to me) but not severely.

In the beginning she wrote out this paper and gave it to me the first day she was here and told me to give her 1/2 a 4oz jar of baby food and 2 tsp of oatmeal cereal 2x a day (10am & 2pm) and if she screamed for an hour afterwards to give her 4oz of formula (if needed) but only if she screamed because she would just throw it up afterwards. That is pretty much how she wrote it. She was almost 8 months old at the time. She could not even lay on her stomach and raise her head off the ground.

I started beefing up her oatmeal and giving her formula as I thought she needed before i even talked to them and I'll tell you what she was a different child just within a week. They never remarked on it but all the other parents did. Eventually they stopped questioning how much I was feeding her and just started bringing more instead of exactly only what she thought I should need. It was literally like she was trying to moderate everything I was feeding her. I just started telling her I was feeding her more and that she was doing fine here. I think she started "getting it" but I talked to her anyway about it. The doctor told her in a wellness visit that she was not gaining weight. It just amazes me the doctor is not seeing this.

Every single solitary parent that walked in the door remarked at the improvement she made in such a short amount of time, which really struck me. Because that meant that all those other parents saw how behind she was and saw that 180 in such a short time. I think that was a big flag to me as well. That it wasn't just me reading into something too much maybe? I also had two other infants here (one born on the same exact day as her and the other was about a month behind) that she started picking stuff up from really quickly, where as allegedly, her previous sitter did not have any other children for her to learn from.

They blamed her low weight and lack of energy on her "acid reflux" which I now believe to actually be lactose intolerance now that she has switched to regular milk. She does fine on the lactose free milk (which I recommended that they try) but has issues on everything else formula/regular milk. I had asked her if the doctor ever put her on Zantac because she spit up severely and she said that she did so and she still spit up so she just stopped giving it to her because it was a waste of money.

....Which makes me wonder if they really addressed that issue with their doctor as much as they should have because that should have been an easy fix all those months.

So, I do have concerns that since she's not going to be here anymore there will not be someone looking out for her best interest. Mom is clearly "missing" a lot of things that are blowing up right in front of her face so it makes me wonder if she is missing them out of convenience or because she just really sucks at being a mom. I would say it is excessively poor parenting. Whether it is intentional, I am unsure. She has a 9 year old son. I just don't understand how she can be this bad at this at this point.
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MrsSteinel'sHouse 05:30 AM 03-29-2013
Call. That has been my only comfort in my little guy's death... When I had him I called and called....
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Chatter Box 06:13 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by MrsSteinel'sHouse:
Call. That has been my only comfort in my little guy's death... When I had him I called and called....
Wow you called while you still had him? How did that go over? They kept bringing him?
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Blackcat31 06:34 AM 03-29-2013
I do NOT think it is up to us to decide what constitutes abuse or poor parenting.

I think our role as mandated reporters is to call whenever we SUSPECT something. ANYTHING.

I have called CPS on several occasions over the last two decades and I can tell you under no uncertain terms that the biggest most shocking case was a mom that had everyone completely fooled.

There was not even the tiniest clue to the depths of what was really going on.

Classic case of what most providers would brush off as an "off day" or maybe even a little bit of bad parenting. That was NOT the case.

I HIGHLY recommend calling if you ever suspect anything. It could mean the difference between saving a child's life or not.

I could have justified every single "clue" or "sign" that went on with this family very easily but my gut just told me something was off.

I called based on my gut instincts.

Please don't ever hesitate to call.

If there is even a reason to make you ask if you should call, I think that is enough to make that call.
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Blackcat31 06:39 AM 03-29-2013
Here are some really good threads about mandated reporting.

https://www.daycare.com/forum/tags.p...dated+reporter
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Angelsj 07:02 AM 03-29-2013
I met a lady at a hair cutting salon. She seemed a little strange, but nice enough, and in need of care for her two little ones (5 and 2.) She came, interviewed and dropped kids the next Monday. All fine.

Throughout the day, I noticed some odd things about the kiddos. The little boy got sand on the BOTTOM of his shoes and freaked. I tapped them off, but he would not continue to wear them, so I let him go barefoot (summer time.)
The little girl made statements like she was used to caring for her brother. She acted more like his mother than his sister. Then, at one point, she noticed a bit of dirt on his face and basically melted down until I washed his face.

I just kept getting strange vibes. The mother arrived and had a complete freak out over the boy's shoes. I am talking about a tiny bit of sand on the BOTTOM of his shoes, not even on the sides.

She showed up in the middle of outside time, so both kids had sand on their hands, and were kid dirty. Not incredibly filthy, but dusty faces and hands, knees. Easily washed with a cloth or just give them a bath. Most of my parents LOVE that I have the kids outside so much and like seeing them "kid dirty." I do clean yucky, but dusty or slightly dirty knees, no biggie, right?? Wrong!!

She started melting down about how they were not riding home in her truck that way, etc. It was so over the top that I told her she could wash them up and that there was a hose in the back yard for the shoes if they were a problem. I even offered to get her a bag to put the shoes in.

When I came back outside, she was not only hosing off the shoes, but THE KIDS!!!! What???!! It was warm, so ok...I guess. I gave her the bag and told her I needed to go fix supper. 30 minutes later, she was still out there, using my water, to spray off the kids and the shoes. I stuck my head out of the back door and told her she needed to go, and that I would no longer be available to watch her children.

Sorry, the point. I called. I didn't really have much to go on, but it was so weird, that I called. Turns out, they already had a file on these kiddos, and 6 months later, they were removed from that home. I don't know what else was happening, but I am glad I called.
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mema 07:03 AM 03-29-2013
I would call. Let CPS decide if something needs to be done-that's their job. Glad that you were able to help her while in your care tho.
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Chatter Box 07:08 AM 03-29-2013
Thank you. What happens when you call? Not that it matters but just curious. What all do they make you do? I'm afraid they will get po'ed and so something to my property if they know I called.
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Blackcat31 07:12 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Chatter Box:
Thank you. What happens when you call? Not that it matters but just curious.
They will take whatever you say and document it.

I would assume they then would investigate.

You have no idea if they have had other calls or not or if they have a file an inch thick on this family.

If nothing comes of it, the call/report is still documented and left in the family's file. The next time someone calls it makes a difference if there has already been a call on the family before....kwim?

So basically, you just call and tell them what you know. You don't have to offer up proof...just that you wanted someone to be aware.

Sometimes a small tiny piece is the piece that finished off the puzzle. You just never know for sure....which is why I always err on the side of caution.

It can't hurt to call but it CAN hurt to NOT call.
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Chatter Box 07:18 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
They will take whatever you say and document it.

I would assume they then would investigate.

You have no idea if they have had other calls or not or if they have a file an inch thick on this family.

If nothing comes of it, the call/report is still documented and left in the family's file. The next time someone calls it makes a difference if there has already been a call on the family before....kwim?

So basically, you just call and tell them what you know. You don't have to offer up proof...just that you wanted someone to be aware.

Sometimes a small tiny piece is the piece that finished off the puzzle. You just never know for sure....which is why I always err on the side of caution.

It can't hurt to call but it CAN hurt to NOT call.
Do they get details on who called if they do investigate ?
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Blackcat31 07:23 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Chatter Box:
Do they get details on who called if they do investigate ?
No. The agency will NEVER reveal who reported but in most cases, depending on the nature of the call, it isn't usually too tough to figure out who called...kwim?

A couple times when I called the info I gave could have come from anyone so the family had no idea and a few other times the situations I reported would only have been known by the child care provider so the family knew it was me immediately.

I can't say for sure in your situation that the family would know because it depends on what you are reporting but still it is the right thing to do.

Kids need more than just their parents to be a voice for them. It is one of the hardest parts of being in this profession but it is also one that is unavoidable at times.
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Chatter Box 07:32 AM 03-29-2013
It all depends on how much information they get really whether they figure it out for sure I think. I'm sure I will be the first thought but she also was in the hospital last week and like I said I'm just confused at how the doctor could be missing all of this.

I did elect to give them my notice which I gave them this week after we all cooled off. So she has been here but mom has stopped picking her up and dropping her off i think because she is mad so I think since she's on vacation next week they will not bring her or call as a parting shot... Which honestly is fine but I know they will know its me when I call if CPS investigates.
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Blackcat31 07:40 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Chatter Box:
It all depends on how much information they get really whether they figure it out for sure I think. I'm sure I will be the first thought but she also was in the hospital last week and like I said I'm just confused at how the doctor could be missing all of this.
I did elect to give them my notice which I gave them this week after we all cooled off. So she has been here but mom has stopped picking her up and dropping her off i think because she is mad so I think since she's on vacation next week they will not bring her or call as a parting shot... Which honestly is fine but I know they will know its me when I call if CPS investigates.
You don't know though that the doctor is missing anything. Maybe there is already an on-going investigation and the family isn't aware yet....

It's kind of like a police show...they gather evidence and information before they go in and raid the place.....kwim?

If this family is leaving, I wouldn't hesitate to call. What are they going to do tell people you were concerned about their children?!

.....sorry for the sarcasm, I know this is a serious issue but honestly if I were you I would call and wouldn't look back.

You are doing the right thing as I said in my earlier post, if you don't call it could mean the difference for a child.

The social workers do whatever they can to protect the people who report things so don't worry too much about that. I am not saying families don't sometimes figure it out but that is a small price to pay for doing what is right by a child.
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Chatter Box 07:48 AM 03-29-2013
I'm going to call. It seems like if CPS went after them after my one call that it would only be because other people have called. I'm honestly wondering if they gave me a crap story about their last provider at this point.
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bluemoose_mom 08:06 AM 03-29-2013
As someone who's had to call on a family member...call! Though in my case it was not a suspicion, but a known fact (30 year old brother slept--not sure if it consequential--not that it matters---with 15 year old sister). He admitted it via text with a cousin. Court next month.

It's really not so bad. I stressed and stressed over it, but in the end, your conscience will be clear.

In what you're describing, I would call. I probably would have called earlier, honestly.
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NeedaVaca 08:18 AM 03-29-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I do NOT think it is up to us to decide what constitutes abuse or poor parenting.

I think our role as mandated reporters is to call whenever we SUSPECT something. ANYTHING.

I have called CPS on several occasions over the last two decades and I can tell you under no uncertain terms that the biggest most shocking case was a mom that had everyone completely fooled.

There was not even the tiniest clue to the depths of what was really going on.

Classic case of what most providers would brush off as an "off day" or maybe even a little bit of bad parenting. That was NOT the case.

I HIGHLY recommend calling if you ever suspect anything. It could mean the difference between saving a child's life or not.

I could have justified every single "clue" or "sign" that went on with this family very easily but my gut just told me something was off.

I called based on my gut instincts.

Please don't ever hesitate to call.

If there is even a reason to make you ask if you should call, I think that is enough to make that call.

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jenn 08:31 AM 03-29-2013
If in doubt, call. Period.

You are supposed to report anything you suspect, and obviously you suspect something to be not quite right. How severe the "not right" is will be up to investigators. Sometimes the child needs out of the home, sometimes the family needs educated, sometimes everything checks out fine. At least by calling, you know you have done everything you can to support this child physically, mentally, and emotionally.

I know it's hard to call, and there is the worry of the family finding out or knowing who called. It can be scary, but what this child is going through might be scarier.
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Chatter Box 10:29 AM 03-29-2013
Another question.... they both have moved recently and I don't have their current addresses. Mom mentioned a couple weeks ago that she had recently switched apartments and I didn't get the updated info yet. I just found out this week that they are not even together still. I have no idea where he is living. Does that matter that I don't know where they live now? I know I still have to report it but how do they locate where they are living. Mom is also in the process of closing on a new house next week which is why she is on vacation, so she will be moving again next week as well.
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jenn 12:52 PM 03-29-2013
Not sure...I would just give them the info you have. (Last known address)
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bunnyslippers 01:46 PM 03-29-2013
I would absolutely call. You would never forgive yourself if something worse happened to this child in the future.

I once called regarding a student in my class. He had been found, by my teaching assistant, walking down a highway in town. He was four, and wearing only a diaper. This was a non-verbal child with autism. My assistant brought him home, and no one in the house had even known he was gone (it was a Saturday morning, around 10).

I filed a report with CPS. Nothing was done at the time, but they did put it on file and investigate briefly. Six months later, that same child left home again, and fell into a neighbor's pool. He almost died. After that incident, CPS stepped in more and investigated fully. Had my initial report not been there, it probably would have been viewed as a one-time accident. It was pure neglect.

Always err on the side of caution. You could save a child's life.
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