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  #1  
Old 08-10-2012, 01:51 PM
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Unhappy Correct or Incorrect?

My best friend texted me today to ask me a question about daycare. Her current provider has had the children in care for a short while. Recently, she told my friend that she is changing the contract and charging more. My friend's child has Downs Syndrome, but he's 4 years old. He also goes to school half days. The original contract was for pt care and a rate for a preschool/toddler.

The new contract the provider wants to go to charges my friend for ft care and for the 4yo at an infant (higher) rate. The provider's reasons are that the 4yo requires more care. He is not fully potty-trained and needs help with steps but other than that is not really different from any other 4yo. I told her not to sign the new contract. My friend wanted to know if the provider could charge more for a special needs child. Based on a post here, I think the consensus was no?

I told my friend never to sign a contract that she doesn't agree with and to look for someone else. Also, I said she should likely put in two weeks notice asap.
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Old 08-10-2012, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by katieica View Post
My best friend texted me today to ask me a question about daycare. Her current provider has had the children in care for a short while. Recently, she told my friend that she is changing the contract and charging more. My friend's child has Downs Syndrome, but he's 4 years old. He also goes to school half days. The original contract was for pt care and a rate for a preschool/toddler.

The new contract the provider wants to go to charges my friend for ft care and for the 4yo at an infant (higher) rate. The provider's reasons are that the 4yo requires more care. He is not fully potty-trained and needs help with steps but other than that is not really different from any other 4yo. I told her not to sign the new contract. My friend wanted to know if the provider could charge more for a special needs child. Based on a post here, I think the consensus was no?

I told my friend never to sign a contract that she doesn't agree with and to look for someone else. Also, I said she should likely put in two weeks notice asap.
Is this is licensed daycare?
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:03 PM
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Yes, it's a licensed daycare. We have to be licensed in my state.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:34 PM
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Not legal.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:43 PM
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Here is a great FAQ's sheet about disabilities and child cares. The sheet refers to centers but I think in the beginning it says that it also means privately owned child care facilities.

The ONLY care facility excempt from ADA rules are those that are religious organizations.

http://www.ada.gov/childq%26a.htm

Here is another great FAQ sheet

http://www.spannj.org/publications/childcarepub.htm

Basically,

"Childcare providers may NOT charge parents of children with special needs additional fees to provide services required by the ADA. For example, if a center is asked to do simple procedures that are required by the ADA, like finger-prick blood glucose tests for children with diabetes, it cannot charge the child’s parents extra. (Of course, the parents must provide all appropriate testing equipment, training and special food necessary for the child).

Instead, the provider must spread the cost across all families participating in the program.

If the childcare provider is providing services beyond those required by ADA, like hiring licensed medical personnel to conduct complicated medical procedures, it may charge the child’s family."


Here is another really good fact sheet (it says it is from New Jersey but the ADA is the same in ALL states) http://www.lsnjlaw.org/english/famil...care/index.cfm

HTH.

Last edited by Blackcat31; 08-10-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 08-10-2012, 02:45 PM
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I get paid more (not a lot more) for special needs children and thats through state reimbursement. I have to turn in a statement written by a doctor stating the special need. IMO that means its legal.

With that said: The parent has every right to look for other care if she doesn't agree with the new contract.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:22 PM
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I think, seeing as how most providers charge more for infants, because they require more care, that it would be acceptable to charge more for a child with special needs that requires more individualized attention. Would I do it? No. But I feel that each provider should have the right to charge as they see fit based on services that they are providing. I do not, however, feel that it is fair that the provider changed the terms shortly after beginning to care for the children. Perhaps the provider realized it is more work than she cares to deal with and hopes the parent chooses to find alternate care.
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Old 08-10-2012, 03:27 PM
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After reading more on this, I understand it to state that the provider cannot charge more to cover the costs of changing physical attributes of the existing facility to meet the needs of the child. I don't think that means that the provider cannot charge more for the day-to-day care of the child.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:08 PM
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If the provider is taking the child to preschool and picking up, then I think it's reasonable to charge full time.

If the child has a ride to and from school, I do not think it's right to charge full time. (unless he's there for more than five hours)

I have had kids who come in the morning, go to school for two hours, come back, eat lunch then stay til 5:30...so, that's full time. It's more trouble to accommodate that schedule than one where the child is with me all day.

She needs to think about how long he's actually in care... I'm betting he's there more than half the day.
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Old 08-10-2012, 04:50 PM
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Honestly, if that's what the provider feels that they need to do then then that is that.

If the parent does not agree with it, the parent can find alternative care.

I have been a home health attendant for a child with Downs from age 2 to age 3. She was not like typical 2 to 3-year-old children and did require a lot more work.
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Old 08-10-2012, 07:31 PM
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If she is changing diapers then an infant/ toddler rate may be applicable.
It may be the provider has decided this child is too much for her and this is her not so delicate way of putting it.
That being said I have one rate anymore.. the higher infant toddler rate for all of my kidlets. I feel that yes, infants/ toddlers your changing diapers, but then your potty training, then your doing preschool activities with them and their cost is higher for materials, they eat more etc. I have one set rate that is higher than the states infant rate and that is what I charge.
At this point being full, I couldn't take on a child with special needs. I would probably need to have 2 empty spots to consider it and yes, I would charge the parents a slightly higher rate. The state does reimburse at a higher rate.
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Old 08-10-2012, 08:58 PM
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I think it would be legal if and only if the provider is changing her contract terms with all her families... so all kids who are not potty trained would be charged the newer higher rate.

I charge a higher rate for a non potty trained child... or should I say, my rate goes down a little when the child is 100% independent with toileting.
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:25 AM
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I charge different rates for all families. More per day for part time, more per hour for a half day, more for a newer family, etc.

But where this provider is wrong is the REASONING behind the charge. She cannot charge more simply because this child is special needs. That is illegal. She is well within her rights to charge for a full day when the child is only there a half.

All that being said, I think your friend should find a new place. No matter how this washes out, it doesn't sound like the right place for her child.
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Old 08-11-2012, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by JenNJ View Post
All that being said, I think your friend should find a new place. No matter how this washes out, it doesn't sound like the right place for her child.
It MIGHT be the right place for her child. Honestly, we all have dealt with parents who wanted a price break, and we agreed at first, then discovered that we were not actually being paid enough. Maybe the child was actually there more than the parent said they would be, or are otherwise taking advantage of the provider.

The provider might be able to fill that spot with a full time, full paying child, and maybe she can no longer afford to have a full day filled with one child who is only paying for half time. It's not like she can fill those three hours with a kid who just happens to need those three hours.

This parent needs to decide if she'd rather pay the full price, and get over it, or move her child to another setting. If there are going to be any hard feelings from the parent (it sounds as if there will be) then she needs to move her child to a new setting. She will most likely have a hard time trying to find someone who is willing to use a full time spot for a part time child, and take part time pay. But, eventually she will find someone.
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Old 08-12-2012, 10:48 PM
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I don't know. While it is definitely unfair and illegal to charge more simply because the child has Down Syndrome, if he truly requires more care than the average child his age then I could see where the provider is coming from.

That said, if the provider charges the same for toddlers and preschoolers, I dont see how he'd be any more work than a non-pt 2 year old, especially since she only has him half days.

That said, at the center I'm about to leave, we had a SA with Down Syndrome. While she didn't need toileting, she wasn't well behaved and pretty much needed her own adult. She required two teachers in the SA class.

And I may be wrong, but in some cases a child with certain special needs require you to have a lower ratio regardless.

I think the parent should contact Dept. Of Social Services in her area to see what her rights are specifically. Its not a situation where blanket rules can apply.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by katieica View Post
My best friend texted me today to ask me a question about daycare. Her current provider has had the children in care for a short while. Recently, she told my friend that she is changing the contract and charging more. My friend's child has Downs Syndrome, but he's 4 years old. He also goes to school half days. The original contract was for pt care and a rate for a preschool/toddler.

The new contract the provider wants to go to charges my friend for ft care and for the 4yo at an infant (higher) rate. The provider's reasons are that the 4yo requires more care. He is not fully potty-trained and needs help with steps but other than that is not really different from any other 4yo. I told her not to sign the new contract. My friend wanted to know if the provider could charge more for a special needs child. Based on a post here, I think the consensus was no?

I told my friend never to sign a contract that she doesn't agree with and to look for someone else. Also, I said she should likely put in two weeks notice asap.
Ok, I'm probably going to be flamed for this but I think this child IS extra work and therefore an extra charge for the extra time, effort, energy and manpower is acceptable to me. It isn't about "special needs" it's about extra work compared to an average child of the same age.

Quote:
He is not fully potty-trained and needs help with steps but other than that is not really different from any other 4yo.
A child that is 4.5 and has trouble with steps must have trouble with other physical activities, balance, stamina and self help skills. The toilet training could be difficulties from anything from dressing and undressing to bladder control to a lack of comprehension to put it all together. That is all much different from the average 4.5 year old who would be in school here.

I talked about this thread alot with my dh. His child is a teen with special needs and she attended a special daycare that was staffed to accommodate special needs children. She's in the public school system now with just some occasional help after surgeries. He said if they weren't lucky enough to have this program close by then he would have absolutely paid "extra" to a SAHM to take on the work and stress involved with a special needs child so that she could be in that environment.

Just my two cents, well dh's too. I wouldn't have posted about this if he hadn't encouraged me to. He said one of the hardest things about being a parent to a special needs child is accepting that they are a little different and that they are more work for the average person.

From DH, "Special needs parents adapt and survive but we need to always remember that everyone around us doesn't need to do that. We always need to be aware that our children are special and often need things or services that above and beyond what an average child would need and an average parent would even consider."
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Blackcat31 View Post
If the childcare provider is providing services beyond those required by ADA, like hiring licensed medical personnel to conduct complicated medical procedures, it may charge the child’s family." [/i]
So just for clarification (for any wondering), if the child with Down's Syndrome required the child care provider in question to hire a trained professional like an Occupational Therapist or Early Interventionist, the provider could in that case charge extra. But without professional, hired help and simply helping the child up and down the stairs? No. That's quite a no-no. She should not sign, and quite frankly, if I were in her position I would bring this up with the provider. It worries me that she is trying to pull this. Whether she pleads ignorance in the rules or not, if it's brought up, she very well could either be embarrassed that she didn't know and never try it again with any client, or she'd know she was "caught" and realize it's not so easy to pull that on families, and not try it again...either way, it definitely needs to a addressed.

Whether she wants to put in her notice or remain with the provider, I guess, depends entirely on the provider's response once the topic is discussed.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:47 AM
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Instead, the provider must spread the cost across all families participating in the program.
Warning... personal vent/rant.
Thank you for opening my eyes. This explains a lot to me within my current town. We've gotten a reputation for outstanding care and service for children with disabilities and we are paying outrageous taxes because of it.

Parents of a classified, disabled child can place their child in any school they feel is best and the cost is paid by the Board of Ed - which ultimately is coming from the taxpayers.

For example: We have one child that lives in town attending a school that costs $80,000.00 per year and another attending a school that costs $100,000.00. These are not the only 2 children in district being sent out to special schools.

I wondered how it was deemed illegal for a Daycare to charge extra for children such as these when it was OK for these schools to do so.

So ultimately what I am gathering from this statement is that you can charge extra for a disabled child's care so long as it doesn't come directly from the disabled child's family. In this case it really does take a village to raise a child.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:50 AM
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I swear we've gone back and forth over this a few times and come to different conclusions each time.

I think in this case it would depend 100% on the wording of the change. Is he being charged at an infant rate because of the down syndrome or does the contract state that potty-trained children are less? Is he being charged a full day because his schedule is such that she can't cover the rest of the hours or because while he's there he needs more work?

Regardless of her motives behind it, I think it's all in the wording. And I do get frustrated when parents of children that do need a LOT more work than a typical child of that age are wanting/expecting to pay a pittance for care--and one I spoke with actually said, indignantly, "But my child has special needs!" and expected me to take pity on them and charge less than half my usual rate. <---NOT saying that's what the OP's friend is doing, not at all, just sharing.
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Old 08-13-2012, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
I swear we've gone back and forth over this a few times and come to different conclusions each time.

I think in this case it would depend 100% on the wording of the change. Is he being charged at an infant rate because of the down syndrome or does the contract state that potty-trained children are less? Is he being charged a full day because his schedule is such that she can't cover the rest of the hours or because while he's there he needs more work?

Regardless of her motives behind it, I think it's all in the wording. And I do get frustrated when parents of children that do need a LOT more work than a typical child of that age are wanting/expecting to pay a pittance for care--and one I spoke with actually said, indignantly, "But my child has special needs!" and expected me to take pity on them and charge less than half my usual rate. <---NOT saying that's what the OP's friend is doing, not at all, just sharing.
You are 100% correct Silver....I hate not having a clue or being in the clouds about something like this so I called the ADA myself and spoke to an actual person. This is what I was told:

The provider MAY charge a higher rate for this child ONLY If she normally charges children who are not toilet trained a higher rate.

Her contract must say "children who are not toilet trained" and not simply state and age group such as 2 and under or preschool, infant or toddler. As soon as she groups kids into rate categories based on AGE it becomes illegal to charge a higher rate. The grouping and words must simply state "not toilet trained" or requiring bathroom assistance.

The provider can NOT charge the child a higher rate simply because of a disability. If the provider hires an assistant or a necessary para-professional for the child, she may be able to charge a higher rate but generally this cost must be spread across ALL families.

The provider can NEVER charge the special needs child more than anyone else pays at ANY time for ANY reason.

The ADA representative I spoke to said that private family child cares may never charge a special needs child more based on disability ONLY on required amounts of care and ONLY if there are others who fall into the same category such as "requiring toileting assistance". She said alot of it depends on the wording of the contract.

Rates can NEVER be based on the disability. This applies to private family child cares and centers.

Hope that clears things up a bit.
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Old 08-13-2012, 10:15 AM
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So I'm going to go a little further into questioning. Can you not accept a child into you program because of having a disiability? I think we should be able to but with the disiability act would it make us have to accept the child.

Know this is what I don't get. A friend of mine is a teacher in one of our schools here. Her assistant in the classroom get paid like $4.00 everytime she has to help a child who needs changed or helps in the bathroom. My friend doesn't get anymore money to do it but the assistants do. The kids are kindergarteners. So I'm wondering why the schools would pay someone more to do this but a childcare provider can't.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:03 AM
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So I'm going to go a little further into questioning. Can you not accept a child into you program because of having a disiability? I think we should be able to but with the disiability act would it make us have to accept the child.
.
I feel as a home provider I can turn away any child I feel is not a good fit for my daycare. We've all said that hundreds of times when talking about interviews, right?? I think again, the key is not to say it is the disability itself - but the fact that you feel you would not be able to provide adequate care to ALL in your group is a legitimate reason.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:16 AM
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That's very strange because don't most states have a "special needs" rate for state pay? How can that be ok, yet not when it's private pay?
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:09 PM
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Ok, I'm probably going to be flamed for this but I think this child IS extra work and therefore an extra charge for the extra time, effort, energy and manpower is acceptable to me. It isn't about "special needs" it's about extra work compared to an average child of the same age.



A child that is 4.5 and has trouble with steps must have trouble with other physical activities, balance, stamina and self help skills. The toilet training could be difficulties from anything from dressing and undressing to bladder control to a lack of comprehension to put it all together. That is all much different from the average 4.5 year old who would be in school here.

I talked about this thread alot with my dh. His child is a teen with special needs and she attended a special daycare that was staffed to accommodate special needs children. She's in the public school system now with just some occasional help after surgeries. He said if they weren't lucky enough to have this program close by then he would have absolutely paid "extra" to a SAHM to take on the work and stress involved with a special needs child so that she could be in that environment.

Just my two cents, well dh's too. I wouldn't have posted about this if he hadn't encouraged me to. He said one of the hardest things about being a parent to a special needs child is accepting that they are a little different and that they are more work for the average person.

From DH, "Special needs parents adapt and survive but we need to always remember that everyone around us doesn't need to do that. We always need to be aware that our children are special and often need things or services that above and beyond what an average child would need and an average parent would even consider."
My son has special needs and I completely agree with your dh, this entire post in fact. Because I have a son with special needs, I absolutely would not take on another special needs child because I cannot meet all of their needs. I think parents need to accept that when you have a child with a disability it is going to be harder to do EVERYTHING, and it is going to cost more. It's not PC, but it's the truth.

To the other poster paying ridiculously high taxes because of special needs kids- from a Mom of a kid receiving services---THANK YOU! We really DO appreciate it! Our school started a special program so that they wouldn't have to bus kids and pay more, it's absolutely amazing and is just about double what a regular ed kid costs BUT that includes a 6:1 ratio classroom, all of the services and therapies individual kids need, and a FREE before and after school program for the kids whose parents work FT. It's the MAIN REASON we changed districts. Also, most people aren't aware of this, but the school bills our private insurance for therapies, and only provide through school funding what our insurance doesn't cover and that he NEEDS. So my copays & deductibles apply. It isn't a free ride (and we don't call him the million dollar baby for nothin!!!!!!!!)
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Old 08-13-2012, 12:55 PM
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My friend didn't get the impression that the provider was charging more due to her ds requiring more work. She feels that the provider only saw a way to get more money. Yes, my friend knows that her child costs more than her other child without special needs. She's very aware of this.

Thanks BlackCat for calling an ADA representative to get a solid answer. My friend has already found someone else to watch the kids. I just am glad to have an answer to the special needs/charging more issue.

My state (for state pay) does NOT pay more for a child with special needs as far as I'm aware. We don't even get more for infants; it's one flat rate per hour for all children.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Country Kids View Post
So I'm going to go a little further into questioning. Can you not accept a child into you program because of having a disiability? I think we should be able to but with the disiability act would it make us have to accept the child.

You canNOT refuse to enroll a child because of a disability. You more or less HAVE to accept them unless there is another reason for not accepting the child into care such as needing different hours or days than you offer. Refusing the child cannot be about the disability.

Know this is what I don't get. A friend of mine is a teacher in one of our schools here. Her assistant in the classroom get paid like $4.00 everytime she has to help a child who needs changed or helps in the bathroom. My friend doesn't get anymore money to do it but the assistants do. The kids are kindergarteners. So I'm wondering why the schools would pay someone more to do this but a childcare provider can't.

The school isn't paying this, the tax payers are. The cost is being spread across the board to all attending families, which makes it perfectly legally.

I answered in bold above.


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Originally Posted by Crazy8 View Post
I feel as a home provider I can turn away any child I feel is not a good fit for my daycare. We've all said that hundreds of times when talking about interviews, right?? I think again, the key is not to say it is the disability itself - but the fact that you feel you would not be able to provide adequate care to ALL in your group is a legitimate reason.
Yes, you have it exactly right. You can NOT deny based on disability but you can deny for boat loads of other reasons.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:22 PM
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That's very strange because don't most states have a "special needs" rate for state pay? How can that be ok, yet not when it's private pay?
I looked up my state's rules about this and this is what I found:

3400.0130 CHILD CARE PROVIDER RATES:

Subp. 3a. Rate determination; children with special needs due to disability.

When a parent or a provider asks the county for a special needs rate for an individual child with disabilities that exceeds the applicable maximum rate, the county must use the following process to determine whether a special needs rate is necessary and, if so, to establish the requested special needs rate.

The county must:

A. obtain documentary evidence of the child's disability;

B. obtain the following documentation from the child care provider:

(1) a description of the specialized training, services, or environmental adaptations that the provider will furnish to meet the individual needs of the child;

(2) the provider's assurance of compliance with applicable provisions of the Americans with Disabilities Act;

(3) the provider's assurance that the rate being sought is the same as the rate that would be charged for similar services provided to a child with a disability in a family not receiving child care assistance; and

(4) a statement from the provider explaining that the rate the provider charges for all children in care should be adopted as the special needs rate for the child with disabilities because the provider has chosen to spread the cost of caring for children with special needs across all families in care; and

C. seek the commissioner's approval of the special needs rate as provided in subpart 3.


Which to me says that the provider can spread the rate increase over EVERY family in care and can get the higher rate for special needs if it involves specialized training, services, or environmental adaptations to accommodate the child. All of which is the same as what the ADA says.

If the state is giving out the higher rate without really doing their research, then they are doing it wrong (LOL!!) ....at least that is what my licensor said when I asked her about this. She is also the one who pointed me in the direction of where to find our state statutes. She also said a majority of providers apply for the higher rates but don't get approved because they aren't understanding the restrictions or requirements.

Just to be sure how your state works, I would check your licensing rules and statues.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:25 PM
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My friend didn't get the impression that the provider was charging more due to her ds requiring more work. She feels that the provider only saw a way to get more money. Yes, my friend knows that her child costs more than her other child without special needs. She's very aware of this.

Thanks BlackCat for calling an ADA representative to get a solid answer. My friend has already found someone else to watch the kids. I just am glad to have an answer to the special needs/charging more issue.

My state (for state pay) does NOT pay more for a child with special needs as far as I'm aware. We don't even get more for infants; it's one flat rate per hour for all children.
You're welcome! Hopefully we all know now. I think this is something we all need to know and be aware of since special needs children are being mainstreamed so much earlier and earlier now days as well as so many new disabilities coming to light too so I think this is a great topic to learn about.

I know when I went to school, all the kids with special needs of any kind were kept separate and never mainstreamed into regular classrooms and I think that is sad but I suppose people just didn't know any better then.
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:44 PM
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I just looked up my state rates for special needs. They pay the same amount as they would for an infant. This was for all three types of childcare in my state.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:19 PM
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I don[t see how it is illegal to turn away a child based on a disability...like me personally, I am not equipped to deal with nor am I trained to handle a disabled child. I would be underqualified and would likely be dangerous for me to care for them. If I accepted a child that is special needs, the parents likely assume I have special needs training and education. If something comes back and I harm this child inadvertently, then what? What woudl have been better for that family, me being upfront and saying, "No, sorry, I am not properly trained or equipped to care for your child" or accepting the child and eventually coming back and saying, "I'm sorry I've injured your child"?
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:20 PM
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I don[t see how it is illegal to turn away a child based on a disability...like me personally, I am not equipped to deal with nor am I trained to handle a disabled child. I would be underqualified and would likely be dangerous for me to care for them. If I accepted a child that is special needs, the parents likely assume I have special needs training and education. If something comes back and I harm this child inadvertently, then what? What woudl have been better for that family, me being upfront and saying, "No, sorry, I am not properly trained or equipped to care for your child" or accepting the child and eventually coming back and saying, "I'm sorry I've injured your child"?
I don't know if Canada is the same as the US with ADA laws and rules but according to the ADA you canNOT exclude a child just because you feel you are not trained or educated about the disability.

The ADA says, the provider must make reasonable modifications or reasonable efforts to their policies and practices to include children, parents, and guardians with disabilities in their programs unless doing so would be a fundamental alteration of their program. These modifications can include trainings about a specific disability and or physical modification to the environment or building.

In order to demonstrate “reasonable efforts,” childcare providers must attempt to access available resources outside of their programs. For example, resources to support the inclusion of a child with a disability may be provided by your state's Early Intervention System or by a local school district through its special education program. Many of these programs offer free training for child care programs.


So basically you MUST accept a child with special needs, even if you lack the training or knowledge about their disability. According to the ADA, it is our responsibilty to get the necessary training. If it does cost, we are to spread the cost over all families and not just to the family of the SN child.

The one exception I see repeated in the info from the ADA is you can exclude them IF they pose a direct threat to the safety of other children in care or if the level of care they require means putting the other kids in danger or having less supervision than they would need. But then the suggestion is to hire an assistant and defer that expense across the board to ALL families and if you used that as a reason, it still seems you have to prove it.

I think there are probably a dozen ways to not enroll a child with a disability but regardless of the reasons why, it just cannot be about the disability itself, like a previous poster said, it is probably all in the wording you use or reasons given to refuse enrollment .
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:56 PM
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In Iowa we are reimbursed at a higher rate if the child has a disabilty. I think they have to qualify as being disabled though. I had a daycare child who did everything on par with her age group but had several surgeries on her skull because of how it was formed. She could play normally but if she bumped her head I had to be watchful of any abnormal symptoms. I was reimbursed at a higher rate for her and her mother received "x" amount of hours a week of care by an aide who would come to her home to give mom a break. This child was no more care than other children but I was reimbursed more, mom received money because of the disability and free help on top of my state paid care to give mom a break.

We were taught that you can turn down a child with a disability in a class (or any child for that matter) and the information was based on Tom Copeland's books. Basically you can turn down any child but it can not be about religion, sex, race or disability. If a child requires more work because of a disability you can say that you can't provide the needed care because you are not equipt to provide it. This could mean you don't have a ramp for a wheelchair or even that you cant change diapers if you do a program just for potty trained preschoolers.

I once turned down an 8 year old child who was dealing with severe autism. Mom said he was prone to fits where he would kick his legs and flail his arms. I told her that because of the younger children that could get hurt by his flailing arms and legs I didn't think it would be safe. That said, I have a child who goes to special needs preschool because of behavior and speech problems ( also not potty trained) and I am not paid more for him by the state. I do not believe potty training and speech delays necessarily make him disabled so he does not qualify.

Also, I think the rules are different in homes compared to centers. Centers, as far as I know, are required to do more you meet the special needs of a child. Pretty much you can't say "I won't take Johnny because of his autism" but you can say "I can't take Johnny because I am not equipt to handle his needs". The same way some do not accept children who are not potty trained because we don't change diapers or others do not accept school aged children because of their size/energy...we don't have to if the child needs more than we can provide. In my experience parents who have a child who live with different needs understand that a home provider would probably struggle.

Last edited by Blackcat31; 08-14-2012 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:15 PM
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I feel as a home provider I can turn away any child I feel is not a good fit for my daycare. We've all said that hundreds of times when talking about interviews, right?? I think again, the key is not to say it is the disability itself - but the fact that you feel you would not be able to provide adequate care to ALL in your group is a legitimate reason.
THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT MY LICENSOR SAYS-WORD FOR WORD! We cant be forced to take any child and parents shouldnt be allowed to use ability or disability to their favor.

And the parent is already getting funds to care for her child- atleast in my area. More $ than one can imagine, and not for medical pmts either. Tell mom to use that $ or call her support worker.
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Old 08-13-2012, 05:45 PM
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To the other poster paying ridiculously high taxes because of special needs kids- from a Mom of a kid receiving services---THANK YOU! We really DO appreciate it! Our school started a special program so that they wouldn't have to bus kids and pay more, it's absolutely amazing and is just about double what a regular ed kid costs BUT that includes a 6:1 ratio classroom, all of the services and therapies individual kids need, and a FREE before and after school program for the kids whose parents work FT. It's the MAIN REASON we changed districts. Also, most people aren't aware of this, but the school bills our private insurance for therapies, and only provide through school funding what our insurance doesn't cover and that he NEEDS. So my copays & deductibles apply. It isn't a free ride (and we don't call him the million dollar baby for nothin!!!!!!!!)
That would be me with the ridiculously high taxes. $4,800.00 for a 2 bedroom bungalow is rather steep (don't you think?) and approximately 75% of that goes to schools. Approximate cost of education per student here is $12,500.00 per year which includes those going to school for $80-100,000.00 per year. (a private College is approximately $50,000.00 per year!)

We have people in town that look for a reason to classify their children be it speech or simply a child that likes to walk on their toes. (yes, I know this can indicate autism but not always) This way they can get their child in free preschool so they can go out and get a job or just plain get free childcare.

I feel my child is special too. I would love to send him to the best private school available but can't afford it. A 6/1 ratio would be awesome. I would love that for my child!

When you have a disabled child do you or do you not receive disability or Social Security money? Does this money get applied to their education bill?

While your child's education costs twice what my child's education costs, I don't begrudge the child. There just has to be a better way. A limit on what can be charged is a start. Special Ed is big business these days.
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Old 08-13-2012, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kaddidle Care View Post
That would be me with the ridiculously high taxes. $4,800.00 for a 2 bedroom bungalow is rather steep (don't you think?) and approximately 75% of that goes to schools. Approximate cost of education per student here is $12,500.00 per year which includes those going to school for $80-100,000.00 per year. (a private College is approximately $50,000.00 per year!)

We have people in town that look for a reason to classify their children be it speech or simply a child that likes to walk on their toes. (yes, I know this can indicate autism but not always) This way they can get their child in free preschool so they can go out and get a job or just plain get free childcare.

I feel my child is special too. I would love to send him to the best private school available but can't afford it. A 6/1 ratio would be awesome. I would love that for my child!

When you have a disabled child do you or do you not receive disability or Social Security money? Does this money get applied to their education bill?

While your child's education costs twice what my child's education costs, I don't begrudge the child. There just has to be a better way. A limit on what can be charged is a start. Special Ed is big business these days.
It has turned into a business, and it has turned into a very lucrative business and many doctors/districts/specialists are very corrupt. It honestly makes me SOOO mad that they just throw a diagnosis around and then expect the school district to foot the bill. Then again, districts LOVEEEE to bill insurance, ours actually tried to get us to pay for more services so that they could bill our insurance more.

In our district, a child has to have a diagnosis from a developmental specialists (there are around 6 in the state that they accept) it took us four years to get the dx because we had to pay for it out of pocket (around 6k, a complete physical/medical, psychological and educational eval, it took two weeks!) Our ds was diagnosed with asd. They need the 6:1 ratio because of the level of care these children need (they are all moderate-severe asd). I don't envy his teacher in the least (and I make more than she does). Social security is income dependent, we have never been eligible. We also aren't eligible for state health care for him, so we have to pay for his copays on speech and occupational therapy out of pocket, as well as paying privately for insurance (both dh and I are self employed) and paying our deductible. We aren't eligible for respite (so we cannot take a vacation, ever because ds would never be able to tolerate it), we aren't eligible for help with ANYTHING. I'm fine with that. We pay our own way, and we pay DS's way. Our school taxes pay well over what ds's 'tuition' is. (It's around 8,000)

What our district did is create a separate wing off of each building (primary/intermediate/elementary) and hire on the staff instead of contracting them out. I know for a fact that they bill enough therapy to insurance for 3 kids in speech to pay the speech teachers annual salary. (and she handles 6 classrooms of 6 kids each).

There was a BIG issue last september over a mother trying to get her ADHD son in this wing. The school wouldn't allow him to. He is NOT disabled enough to justify it, the mother could never get the correct diagnosis from an approved pediatric developmental specialist, etc. So I am really happy that they won't allow people to abuse the system.

When my son was in prek, he had to go to a special needs school and we paid $350/w (the average prek cost was $150 and that's what we paid for dd 2 years prior) I was actually told during the interview that if I just STOPPED WORKING I could get social security, health insurance, free preschool, etc. I gave her a piece of my mind. If everyone STOPS WORKING, who is PAYING THESE BILLS!??!
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:44 AM
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Years ago, before I became a childcare provider, I worked in group homes and independent living facilities. Clients with severe disabilities lived in the group homes and our job was to help them get through their day to day tasks and to do the things for them that they were unable to do themselves. The clients with minor disabilities or with disabilities that could be managed lived in independent facilities like apartments, the staff lived in one apartment and the clients lived in the other apartments in the building. Our job with them was to teach them to be even more independent with the goal of them living on their own with little to no assistance. I quit my job there when they started closing the independent facilities and placing everyone in group homes..... The reason was because there was no money to be made in making our clients independent but if they were in group homes we had so much money coming in that we had to do "spend downs" on clients accounts so they wouldn't lose benefits. A spend down meant buying new furniture or other expensive items. The main living quarters of the group home had new furniture every few months. It was business, a dirty nasty business that I could not take part in. I hope things have changed since then but something tells me it has probably gotten worse.
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Old 08-14-2012, 08:38 AM
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In Iowa we are reimbursed at a higher rate if the child has a disabilty. I think they have to qualify as being disabled though. I had a daycare child who did everything on par with her age group but had several surgeries on her skull because of how it was formed. She could play normally but if she bumped her head I had to be watchful of any abnormal symptoms. I was reimbursed at a higher rate for her and her mother received "x" amount of hours a week of care by an aide who would come to her home to give mom a break. This child was no more care than other children but I was reimbursed more, mom received money because of the disability and free help on top of my state paid care to give mom a break. .
Legally if you are taking the higher reimbursement rate for that child, you wold have to charge ALL families the same rate UNLESS your contract is worded to state that children requiring more one to one care are charged a higher rate. Your state may have been providing the higher rate but they should have made sure that ALL families were charged this rate. That is the info told to me by the ADA.

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Originally Posted by nanglgrl View Post
We were taught that you can turn down a child with a disability in a class (or any child for that matter) and the information was based on Tom Copeland's books. Basically you can turn down any child but it can not be about religion, sex, race or disability. If a child requires more work because of a disability you can say that you can't provide the needed care because you are not equipt to provide it. This could mean you don't have a ramp for a wheelchair or even that you cant change diapers if you do a program just for potty trained preschoolers.
Legally you ARE obligated to make architectural changes such as adding ramps. Each case is different according to the ADA but REASONABLE efforts by the provider must be made in regards to equipment and/or training so that we are equipt to take care of the child.

You can turn the child down in regards to the diapers ONLY IF other children in diapers are also turned down. This would make the denial of entrance about the diapers and not about the disability.

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Originally Posted by nanglgrl View Post
I once turned down an 8 year old child who was dealing with severe autism. Mom said he was prone to fits where he would kick his legs and flail his arms. I told her that because of the younger children that could get hurt by his flailing arms and legs I didn't think it would be safe. That said, I have a child who goes to special needs preschool because of behavior and speech problems ( also not potty trained) and I am not paid more for him by the state. I do not believe potty training and speech delays necessarily make him disabled so he does not qualify.
Being a thread or potential threat to the safety of other childrenin care is the ONLY reason we can deny enrollment in regards to the disability.

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Originally Posted by nanglgrl View Post
Also, I think the rules are different in homes compared to centers. Centers, as far as I know, are required to do more you meet the special needs of a child.
ADA rules/laws apply to ALL types of care centers with the exception of religious entities. Family child care homes and centers have the exact same rules.


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Originally Posted by nanglgrl View Post
Pretty much you can't say "I won't take Johnny because of his autism" but you can say "I can't take Johnny because I am not equipt to handle his needs". The same way some do not accept children who are not potty trained because we don't change diapers or others do not accept school aged children because of their size/energy...we don't have to if the child needs more than we can provide. In my experience parents who have a child who live with different needs understand that a home provider would probably struggle.
Again, not being equipt to manage their care needs is not an excuseable reason to deny enrollment. It is NOT the same as denying a child due to being toilet trained or not.

Not beig equipt to manage their disability makes it about the disability.

Not accepting children in diapers makes it about something completely different.


Hope that makes sense. I posted a couple links in one of the first posts I made that explains the differences nicely as well as the laws/rules about child care homes/centers.

The rep at the ADA I spoke with told me a vast majority of providers believe things that are contradictive to the laws/rules and because even more parents don't know the laws/rules they accpet rather than find out or do something different.

Last edited by Blackcat31; 08-14-2012 at 08:46 AM.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:06 PM
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Blackcat, I'm sure you are correct on what the ADA told you but we were also told in our class that they fight for people with disabilities do basically they will tell you things with a "jaded" view. As a home I'm not required to have handicapped parking, bars near my toilet, a wheelchair ramp or any other devices that aid persons with disabilities. Centers are required to have these things no matter if they have children enrolled that need these devices or not. They did not consider the cost and problems that arise from these devices a reasonable solution for a home provider. As for getting paid more by the state we have no option to do it the way you suggest and I would imagine that the well paid lawyers that manage things like this for the state have researched to make sure it is not breaking any laws. I could always be wrong though so in the future if you see Iowa being sued by the ADA I will eat my words.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:15 PM
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I don't know if Canada is the same as the US with ADA laws and rules but according to the ADA you canNOT exclude a child just because you feel you are not trained or educated about the disability.

The ADA says, the provider must make reasonable modifications or reasonable efforts to their policies and practices to include children, parents, and guardians with disabilities in their programs unless doing so would be a fundamental alteration of their program. These modifications can include trainings about a specific disability and or physical modification to the environment or building.

In order to demonstrate “reasonable efforts,” childcare providers must attempt to access available resources outside of their programs. For example, resources to support the inclusion of a child with a disability may be provided by your state's Early Intervention System or by a local school district through its special education program. Many of these programs offer free training for child care programs.


So basically you MUST accept a child with special needs, even if you lack the training or knowledge about their disability. According to the ADA, it is our responsibilty to get the necessary training. If it does cost, we are to spread the cost over all families and not just to the family of the SN child.

The one exception I see repeated in the info from the ADA is you can exclude them IF they pose a direct threat to the safety of other children in care or if the level of care they require means putting the other kids in danger or having less supervision than they would need. But then the suggestion is to hire an assistant and defer that expense across the board to ALL families and if you used that as a reason, it still seems you have to prove it.

I think there are probably a dozen ways to not enroll a child with a disability but regardless of the reasons why, it just cannot be about the disability itself, like a previous poster said, it is probably all in the wording you use or reasons given to refuse enrollment .
I termed a child with Autism due to him attempting to physically assault the other children multiple times an hour. If I would have gone to the restroom, the other children would have been hurt.
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