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  #1  
Old 02-11-2013, 11:52 AM
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Angry Demanding Payment Not Owed...

I'm not sure what action to take if any...My daughter's in home daycare provider changed her sick policy as well as her notice policy from 2 weeks to 4. With the change in policies my husband and I decided to pull our daughter from said daycare only a couple of hours of receiving, via email, the updated policies and procedures. We gave a deposit for one weeks tuition at the beginning of care for last week of care and had already paid two weeks in advance at the beginning of the week that we pulled her. So we believe we are paid up as she had the next weeks tuition and the deposit for the last week of care. She is demanding another weeks payment and is "as a courtesy" waiving the 4th week. On top of which went back through the whole year and is now also demanding almost $500 in late pick up fees she never charged at the time of said "late" pickups. She is now also refusing to provide her EIN for taxes until we pay her in full....She has been quite the headache. If anyone can help me with this situation I would really appreciate ANY advice.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:06 PM
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Unless you signed a new contract agreeing to the new guideline for fees and notice, you are only obligated to adhere to the old contract in my opinion.

I personally feel that if you paid for a full two weeks up front, and pulled her from care, your two weeks payment is enough to cover the two weeks notice and the provider would owe YOU the return of your deposit.

I also think she has no legal right to go back and charge late fees if she didn't charge them when she should have. If she waived them, that is on her and you shouldn't be "back charged" them now in light of this situation.

VERY unprofessional to do that in my opinion.

As far as the EIN number, she canNOT legal withhold that but what you need to do is submit a W-10 form to her. You can find that here: http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw10.pdf

If she refuses to fill out the W-10 form when you submit it to her, she can be fined $50 for refusing to give it out.

You can still do your taxes without it if you know your year end total.

Here is some info about how that works http://www.tomcopelandblog.com/2011/...47e215dc2e970b

Bottom line is make sure you have a copy of your signed contract with this provider. What is written in the contract is what you are required to do. If you didn't sing the new contract, that one isn't really enforceable.
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:25 PM
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Thank you! I did in fact send her a W-10 form and she 100% refused to fill it out until we pay her. Thank you for the link.
We absolutely did NOT sign anything agreeing with the updates in policies! My husband and I went through the contract line by line and it does state 2 weeks on the hard copy of the contract, only in the updated policies and procedures does it state 4 weeks. That being said, we are also questioning the validity of the contract due to the fact that she did not sign it herself. In fact there is not even a signature line for her to have done so, and in receiving a copy of the contract after pulling our daughter, she had marked it all up with notes as well as crossed things out. She is threatening to send us to collections for not 1 but 2 wekks tuition plus the $500 in late pickup fees...If this happens, what action should I take then? We are absolutely not paying her another dime, but we also don't want our credit to take a fall...

I guess what I am asking is, should I just cut my losses, do my taxes, let her get the fine and just move on? And if she does in fact send us to collections, is there any legal action I can take? Contract valid or not...
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Old 02-11-2013, 12:45 PM
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Thank you! I did in fact send her a W-10 form and she 100% refused to fill it out until we pay her. Thank you for the link.
We absolutely did NOT sign anything agreeing with the updates in policies! My husband and I went through the contract line by line and it does state 2 weeks on the hard copy of the contract, only in the updated policies and procedures does it state 4 weeks.
Did she "tell" you she refuses to fill it out or did she text or e-mail that to you? Just curious as I would think you have to prove you tried to have her sign it but I am not sure about that so thinking it would be better if you had something in writing that she refuses to provide the EIN #.

Make sure you keep the hardcopy of your contract. What I would personally do it make a copy highlighting the two weeks notice section and the section saying what her late fee policy is. Then I would write up a request for the return of any money you paid beyond the 2 weeks.

I would also let her know you are not paying the late fees since she is obviously only adding them on now because you pulled your child; otherwise, why didnt she charge them at the time of late pick up or late payment (if that is what the contract says) ?

My policies state late fees are due upon late pick up and no further services will be provided until late fees are paid in full. I would never be able to go back and try and charge a parent tose late fees if I choose to waive them and still continued to provide care. know what I mean?

I would send that letter certifed so you KNOW she got it.

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
That being said, we are also questioning the validity of the contract due to the fact that she did not sign it herself. In fact there is not even a signature line for her to have done so, and in receiving a copy of the contract after pulling our daughter, she had marked it all up with notes as well as crossed things out.
I don't know about that so much as I only require my parents to sign and date my contract. So sorry not much help there.

I don't think anything "added" in pen/pencil and/or after you signed would be enforceable either.

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
She is threatening to send us to collections for not 1 but 2 wekks tuition plus the $500 in late pickup fees...If this happens, what action should I take then? We are absolutely not paying her another dime, but we also don't want our credit to take a fall...
If she does send you to collections, make sure you have your paperwork and me personally, I would counter sue her for the return of the deposit since you already paid a week deposit to cover the first week of your final two weeks AND paid for 2 more weeks so that 3rd week is due back to you in my opinion and I would file with small claims to get it back.

I know if parents in my community dispute a bill sent to collections, the collection agency allows a parent to file a written version of why they dispute the bill although I am not sure what that does for either the party trying to collect or the one being collected on.

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I guess what I am asking is, should I just cut my losses, do my taxes, let her get the fine and just move on? And if she does in fact send us to collections, is there any legal action I can take? Contract valid or not...
If you have your total amount paid, I would just file my taxes without her info. Let the chips fall where they may.

Bottom line is I would make sure you have everything in writing. Send a certified letter requesting your over payment back and set a date for it to be returned to you and if you don't get it by that date, I would file in small claims court to get it back. If you have your contract and are abiding by it's contents then you have every right to request your over payment back.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:02 PM
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So we believe we are paid up as she had the next weeks tuition and the deposit for the last week of care. She is demanding another weeks payment and is "as a courtesy" waiving the 4th week. On top of which went back through the whole year and is now also demanding almost $500 in late pick up fees she never charged at the time of said "late" pickups. She is now also refusing to provide her EIN for taxes until we pay her in full....She has been quite the headache. If anyone can help me with this situation I would really appreciate ANY advice.

WOw... she sounds like a nightmare. I don't think she can charge you $500 in late fees. (although, why on earth are you late so often?)

I wish I had ideas, but as you said, you paid her for three weeks. You technically owe her for one week, so perhaps offer her that.

I can't understand why she wouldn't have just kept your child for the month, since it's already paid, she would have gotten one more week's pay, and been able to spend a month with your daughter before she left.

Did you cancel the agreement on bad terms? Maybe you were abrasive? That still wouldn't make up for her overreaction, but I'm just throwing that out there.

If you had her EIN number last year, you still have it for this year.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by youretooloud View Post
WOw... she sounds like a nightmare. I don't think she can charge you $500 in late fees. (although, why on earth are you late so often?)

I wish I had ideas, but as you said, you paid her for three weeks. You technically owe her for one week, so perhaps offer her that.

I can't understand why she wouldn't have just kept your child for the month, since it's already paid, she would have gotten one more week's pay, and been able to spend a month with your daughter before she left.

Did you cancel the agreement on bad terms? Maybe you were abrasive? That still wouldn't make up for her overreaction, but I'm just throwing that out there.

If you had her EIN number last year, you still have it for this year.
The parent doesn't owe the provider since the original contract says two weeks and the parent paid for 3. The parent opted to withdraw when provider tried to change the two weeks notice to four. Parent never agreed to 4.

Provider owes parent for one week as parent has already paid for 3 and is contractually obligated to only pay for 2 weeks per signed contract.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:07 PM
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We absolutely did NOT sign anything agreeing with the updates in policies! My husband and I went through the contract line by line and it does state 2 weeks on the hard copy of the contract, only in the updated policies and procedures does it state 4 weeks.

If you did not sign the amended contract, you are not bound to it. I don't have to agree to my Gym's changes, I had warning in advance, and if I wanted to cancel my membership, there's nothing they can do about the changes they made. By staying there past Jan 1st, I have agreed to it.

They can't just charge me an extra $10 if I wanted to cancel my membership within the original agreed upon one month notice.

By pulling your child from her daycare, you were not agreeing to her new contract. She has no right to charge you based on her email.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:17 PM
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sounds like she owes YOU one week. so You have 2 choices.

Wait and see if she takes you to small claims court

or go ahead and take her to small claims court for refund of that one week.

I would send her another W-10 certified mail and state that you will be filing your taxes anyway with out it stating provider refused to provide it.
But yes if you were there last year you already have it in your records. or if friends with another parent call and ask them the number. If not file and say provider refused and give her name and address. Let the IRS deal with her.
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:29 PM
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Because BlackCat already answered the questions in your OP the very same as I would have I will only comment on your second response.

Quote:
I did in fact send her a W-10 form and she 100% refused to fill it out until we pay her.
BlackCat is correct. It is illegal for her to refuse to fill it out, however your child care provider does not need to give you an end of year total for the amount that you paid in child care fees. Adding up your totals should not be difficult if you paid with check as you should be able to go through your bank statements and find those transactions. Cash payments are however more difficult because there is no record of them but if you paid a flat weekly fee each week you can figure it out by subtracting any vacations or absences where you were not contracted to pay.

Quote:
We absolutely did NOT sign anything agreeing with the updates in policies!
If you did not sign a new contract and you gave her your required notice the day that she sent out her updates then you should go by what your signed agreement says.

Quote:
My husband and I went through the contract line by line and it does state 2 weeks on the hard copy of the contract, only in the updated policies and procedures does it state 4 weeks. That being said, we are also questioning the validity of the contract due to the fact that she did not sign it herself.
Even though the child care provider did not sign it I would keep it so that if she were in fact to take you to small claims court or you her, you can show that you signed it and what in fact you had agreed to. You might want to think about sending her a letter requesting that she mail you a blank copy (or photocopy) of your original contract the way it was worded before she made changed even if she doesn't comply. Mail it certified and keep the receipt and a copy of that letter for yourself which mentions that you request it because she marked your copy all up. If anything the letter will show that you attempted to obtain a copy of your original agreement. Print a copy of the email she send you as well. I would also suggest that all communication be done via letter or email. Absolutely to not speak to her in person or on the phone. This way there is a "paper trail" of your communication. If she calls you do not answer and keep any voicemail messages/texts that she leaves you. I would also start a written log of any communication you have had and may have with her for your own records. Do it in chronological order and start from the day that you received the email.

Quote:
In fact there is not even a signature line for her to have done so, and in receiving a copy of the contract after pulling our daughter, she had marked it all up with notes as well as crossed things out.
This will serve as a learning experience. Next time make sure to ask for a copy of the contract immediately after signing one.

Quote:
She is threatening to send us to collections for not 1 but 2 weeks tuition plus the $500 in late pickup fees...If this happens, what action should I take then? We are absolutely not paying her another dime, but we also don't want our credit to take a fall...
If she send you to collections before filing a small claims court case then you can take her to small claims court and it will be your burden to prove that you do not owe her this money and that she has falsely accused you of shorting her and has hurt your credit.

If she take you to court have your ducks in a row and take your paperwork with you and it will be her burden to prove that you owe her that money and it will be your burden to prove that you do not owe her the money.

Quote:
I guess what I am asking is, should I just cut my losses, do my taxes
I would also include either in the same letter as I suggested above or in a seperate letter the information that BlackCat has given you which states that it is illegal to withhold tax information and a letter with another w-10 and once again request that she give you her EIN. Make it clear that a response is required in writing only and give her a deadline. If she doesn't respond by the deadline fill out your own w-10 as best as possible and fill in as much information as you possibly can. You should already have her name and address at minimum and add a written note from you on the form that says that your child care provider refused to give you this information (as in her EIN) and just file your taxes same as you always have. This will probably flag her with the IRS but it may also flag you as well.

Good luck
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  #10  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:46 PM
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I actually think no one owes anyone anything. The way I understood things, they paid for the next two weeks last Monday, used a week of their time, pulled the child. One week of pay plus one week's deposit = two weeks' notice.

If I'm reading it right.

And I agree; she can't hold you to the new terms when you didn't agree to them or sign anything. You were well within your rights and did everything correctly.

She shouldn't be back-charging the late fees...though you should make sure not to be late with your next provider
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Old 02-11-2013, 02:20 PM
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First off I would like to thank you all for your input and advice. I truly appreciate it.

Since this situation has started, we have ONLY communicated with her through email and text and have saved all messages sent and received. The only voicemail received is from her refusing to provide any information for taxes until we pay in full. Though her first refusal was via email.

Our daughter did not attend this daycare the prior year, so I do not have her EIN#.

I do not care about getting any money from her. I believe we are paid up even. My worry is fighting with collections or damage to credit. And I am not understanding why she is making things so hard on us as EVERYTHING was fine until we disagreed with her policies and politely pulled our daughter from her care with 2 weeks notice paid.

As for being late all the time. I don't feel the need to explain myself there, all that needs to be said here is we were within the contract.

I think I know what I am going to do and again I really appreciate all of your feedback. Thanks!
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Old 02-11-2013, 03:59 PM
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I consider "late" after I close. If you are within my hours, you are not late. If you are outside of my hours (without permission) you are late, and I get beyond frustrated. I would rather have my time than a parent's money.
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Old 02-12-2013, 01:36 AM
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I consider "late" after I close. If you are within my hours, you are not late. If you are outside of my hours (without permission) you are late, and I get beyond frustrated. I would rather have my time than a parent's money.
It could be contracted hours so they are arriving during business hours but outside their contracted time.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:47 AM
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I would just file my taxes and send her a letter stating you are doing so. Let her deal with the consequences of her own actions. As far as damage to credit, I think that if this moves to small claims, the proof is on your side. She doesn't have the proof, so no credit company would ding your credit if they didn't have a paper trail.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:20 AM
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Ok in the interest of full disclosure I' am an at home child care provider and I have to say that she is being very unprofessional about this whole issue. I agree with the others, if you didnt sign the new contract then you are only obligated to what your current one says. I would not pay her a dime more. I dont think she can withhold her ein # from you, I would just let her deal with the fine. If she sends you to collections she would have ot pay a fee as well for the service so I dont think its in her best interest to do that.. I would keep your contract handy incase you need it and a record of all you have paid her incase this gets nasty. In my opinion you are all paid up. My policy requires two weeks notice (paid ofcourse) if you are going to end care. (that is pretty standard where I live) You are more than paid up! I would just move on. And I hope you find a provider that will be good to you!
I can't believe that she would try and charge you for late pickup fees now!
Further more, she should have signed the contract. I always sign mine right after the parent does! You may want to fine out about that. ( I consider my contracts binding once they are signedby the parent but now I'm curious.) Did she give you anything in writting about what she is charging you? (the late fees and such?) I would keep all of that just incase. In m yopinion she is nuts to even try anything!
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:19 AM
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I actually think no one owes anyone anything. The way I understood things, they paid for the next two weeks last Monday, used a week of their time, pulled the child. One week of pay plus one week's deposit = two weeks' notice.
You did understand that right. A little more about that, we paid her that Monday, 2 hours later I got a call at work saying my daughter was too sick to be there. When I arrived to pick her up she was outside playing with the other kids. That's fine, the provider thought she was too sick (my daughter had a runny nose and a slight cough, allergies...) that is when she decided to change the sick policy (also fine), that's her business. She refused care for the next 2 days. What I am saying here is, how everything went down was all her business and her decisions, we did not agree and pulled our daughter. We paid her for 2 weeks of care on that Monday and my daughter was only there for 2 hours that week due to this sudden change in policy. I cannot force someone to care for my child, but I very much so have the right to take my daughter out of the care of a daycare with policies I don't agree with. We were not rude about it in any way, shape or form. I really don't understand why she got so nasty with us, but she then accused us of bad parenting by telling us our daughter has asthma (she does not) and that we were wrong to pull our daughter away from the relationships she had built up with the other kids. If she was trying to convince us to stay with her, she definitely went about it the wrong way. Sorry about the small rant, this whole thing is just so infuriating!
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Old 02-12-2013, 08:34 AM
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You did understand that right. A little more about that, we paid her that Monday, 2 hours later I got a call at work saying my daughter was too sick to be there. When I arrived to pick her up she was outside playing with the other kids. That's fine, the provider thought she was too sick (my daughter had a runny nose and a slight cough, allergies...) that is when she decided to change the sick policy (also fine), that's her business. She refused care for the next 2 days. What I am saying here is, how everything went down was all her business and her decisions, we did not agree and pulled our daughter. We paid her for 2 weeks of care on that Monday and my daughter was only there for 2 hours that week due to this sudden change in policy. I cannot force someone to care for my child, but I very much so have the right to take my daughter out of the care of a daycare with policies I don't agree with. We were not rude about it in any way, shape or form. I really don't understand why she got so nasty with us, but she then accused us of bad parenting by telling us our daughter has asthma (she does not) and that we were wrong to pull our daughter away from the relationships she had built up with the other kids. If she was trying to convince us to stay with her, she definitely went about it the wrong way. Sorry about the small rant, this whole thing is just so infuriating!
I am sorry, I mis-understood how you paid and Silver is right then, you don't have any money due back but I also believe the daycare provider does not have the right to bill you for any more money either.

I would call it a wash and walk away if I were her.

I would assume, although I am not her, but I would assume she turned nasty because she really thought you would stay and that you weren't going to pull your child just because of a change in termination policies or a change in sick policies.

Her frustration and bad behavior is more than likely rooted in losing a client. NOT very professional but totally understandable.

I still think you did the right thing by pulling your child immediately since you did not agree to the changes she made.

She still ahs every right to try and sue you or try to collect money she feels you owe her. It doesn't mean she is right, just that she has the right to try.

As I said before, as long as you have your paperwork, followed the contract you signed and are paid up for your last two weeks, I think you are fine.

I would file my taxes with the proof you have that she refused to provide the EIN number and just move on.

If you get anything from collections or from small claims court...you have the necessary paperwork to proove your case so the rest is on her.

Good luck!

I also want to mention that as a parent, your persepctive is very valueable to child care care providers (and other parents) so please consider registering and becoming a part of our forum board.
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Old 02-12-2013, 12:57 PM
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No money is owed to or by either party.

My suggestion regarding the EIN is this: Have your accountant call her and get it. If he/she is unsuccessful, I would try to contact another family that attended the daycare (if you know anyone) or send her a certified letter demanding that she provide her EIN or you will be forced to take legal action.

As for the possibility of collections. You have 30 days to dispute the claim. I would provide your contract and receipts of payments. It will also be up to her to validate the claim and clearly she won't be able to do so.
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