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Old 03-16-2016, 03:06 PM
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Default Breach of Contract??? What??

I have a family that I have had an intense issue with this week. They notified me that one child was sick on Monday, the Mom said it looked like Influenza, so I requested he be tested. It was positive for Influenza.
They have 2 other children in my care. I have a rule that siblings stay home when one is sick. Mom was upset that I asked for the test and wanted to know when they could all return. After spending a great deal of time researching Influenza, I found out a child can be contagious for up to 7 days, even if they have no remaining symptoms. I called the Mom at the end of the day and told her that anyone that tests positive will have to stay out until they are no longer contagious. We have another infant here, a pregnant Mom, a Dad with Cancer and I am immunocompromised from medication. I do not want Influenza in my home, period. I explained this to her and she insisted the doctor was right, (24 hours fever free) and that she would send me a note saying when they could return. (what is she not getting?) She got really mean, insulted me by saying 'you obviously don't have a PhD' and continued to push the issue. The call was quite heated. I told her that I run my own business and a rely on Doctors to make a diagnosis,, but the decision to allow a child here when they are potentially ill is my decision. BTW, They have not paid me for this week.
Today she sends me a doctor's note FROM MONDAY saying two of the kids have Influenza. Our phone call went until 5:15 pm, and that clinic is only open until 7 pm, so I was baffled at how the 2nd child being sick never came up during our phone convo. How did she conveniently forget to mention either the positive test result or the 2nd child's symptoms at 5:15? I asked her via email what was going on because I had talked to her on Monday, nothing was mentioned about the 2nd child being sick and I was confused. I also emailed them and asked for a payment.
Shortly thereafter, I received an email saying I 'Breached our contract' and they are giving me a termination notice and only paying me for 3 days instead of 2 weeks. I require a 2 week notice (paid in cash) for termination outside the probation period.
I don't want to be out the money, but they have been a pain in the rear from the beginning. She doesn't want to follow any rules, but expects me to constantly go above and beyond for her kids.
I asked her what part of the contract I breached, and she did not respond. What would you suggest? Do I take the payment of 252 and forget about the other 800 they owe me for a 2 week notice, or do I fight for what is due to me and risk retaliation (and believe me, she is the type). She is a very controlling person that tries to come across as all nicey, nicey but she is honestly the most un trusting person I have ever been around. I could tell you some stories, but this is already long enough.
Have any of you ever been accused of 'Breach Of Contract'? TIA
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:10 PM
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What does your contract/policies say about illness? Exclusion? Can you copy and paste it?
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:15 PM
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Don't be bullied. That's what she is. You have a signed contract. You haven't breached any policies. Tell her, as nicely and sternly as possible, that xx money is due at the time of termination of contract and if it is not paid in full, she will be taken to small claims court where she will also be responsible for paying your court fees.

If she starts bad mouthing you to others, tell that is slander, which you will also see her in court for.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:17 PM
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This is tough. It is hard without seeing your contract. I know that *I* would never exclude that long for the flu, unless the child wasn't able to participate, but I don't run your business and know your circumstance. You are free to make your policies. But if mom was blindsided by the seven day thing, I can see her being upset. How long does your licensing rep suggest you exclude for flu?
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:21 PM
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Your requirements for a termination are the requirements no matter what she says. So, I would issue a request for payment with a due date and inform them that it will be taken to small claims court if it is not paid by then.

Sometimes, though, it is nice to get things over with as quickly as possible when you have a pain in the honey client. I might tell them that they're free to go elsewhere immediately.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist View Post
Your requirements for a termination are the requirements no matter what she says.
This depends on her policies and the contract that the parent signed. If her contract says that it's up to the provider's discretion when a sick child can return then she's golden and no contact has been breached on the provider's side. If her contract only says that a Dr's note is required in order to return for example and the provider doesn't allow them to return then the provider is refusing paid services to the client. Without knowing what her policies are it's too difficult to determine who is breaching the contract.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:33 PM
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Thrifty Lady, How long would you exclude for Influenza, knowing they are contagious for 1 day prior to symptoms and 5-7 days after?

I feel I would be doing my other families a big disservice by allowing a child to attend who is still contagious with a possibly serious illness. I can't get past that.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:37 PM
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Can you copy and paste your illness policy?
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hgonzalez View Post
Thrifty Lady, How long would you exclude for Influenza, knowing they are contagious for 1 day prior to symptoms and 5-7 days after?

I feel I would be doing my other families a big disservice by allowing a child to attend who is still contagious with a possibly serious illness. I can't get past that.
I exclude based on symptoms only and based on if they can participate in daily activities. So if they had no symptoms, I wouldn't exclude. But like I (and others) have said, it depends on your policy. So what does YOUR written policy currently state?
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:44 PM
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I can, but it does not have anything specific to Influenza (but it will soon, lol) except for Mandatory closure because that has never been an issue here. It is quite lengthy.

But how would that be a 'Breach of Contract' anyway? I did not say I WOULD care for children with Influenza. And if I 'breached the contract' why would she be willing to pay me for 3 days, but not the full 2 weeks? I mean, that doesn't make sense.
If I went through my contract item by item, there are at least ten separate items that she has not fulfilled including the 2 week notice. Is she trying to say the contract is null and void so they don't owe me the full 2 weeks?
And by the way, she is a bully, 100%.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:44 PM
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The CDC says:

When can my child go back to school
after having the flu?
Keep your child home from school, day care or camp for at least 24 hours after their fever is gone. (Fever should be gone without the use of a fever-reducing medicine.)
A fever is defined as 100°F (37.8°C) or higher.


So a Dr could release the child to return after 24 hours fever free, but we still need to see your policy to know for sure if you're covered.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:48 PM
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I exclude children based on symptoms if a diagnosis has not been made. If your child has a fever over 100 degrees, regardless of the cause, they need to be kept out of daycare due to the likelihood of a contagious illness.


I WILL NOT ACCEPT OR KEEP A CHILD IN MY CARE IF HE/SHE EXHIBITS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING SYMPTOMS:

• Temperature of 100 degrees F or higher (must be fever free without the use of fever reducing medications (Tylenol or Motrin) for a full 24 hours before returning to daycare.
• Vomiting due to any cause (including severe coughing)
• Diarrhea or 4 or more loose stool diapers or incidents
• Any undiagnosed rash or rash still considered contagious, including mouth or lip
sores with an unknown cause. I may require a doctor’s note to return to daycare after the child is examined with a diagnosis or determination that your child is non-contagious.
• Severe cold symptoms including thick nasal discharge, severe continuous cough, severe wheezing, sore throat or discharging eyes
• Strep infections: Child must be on antibiotics for a FULL 24 hours
before returning to daycare. If the 24 hour time elapses after the 6:30 am start of a daycare day, your child must also remain home for that full day and may return the following day.
• Impetigo: until on prescribed antibiotics for a FULL 24 hours.
• Bacterial conjunctivitis: (Pink-eye) until treated with antibiotic drops
for a full 24 hours. Viral pink eye cannot return to daycare until eyes
show no sign of redness or discharge (with a doctor’s note).
• Chicken Pox: will require a doctor’s note that child is not contagious.
• Scabies: will require a doctor’s note to return.
• Head Lice. I will not accept a child in my care until a physician or
nurse has declared the child both louse and nit FREE. I will need a signed
statement from the physician or nurse confirming this before the child can return.


PLEASE DO NOY BRING YOUR CHILD TO DAYCARE IF YOU SUSPECT
ANY OF THE ABOVE CONDITIONS OR HE/SHE HAS DISPLAYED ANY OF
THE ABOVE SYMPTOMS WITHIN THE PREVIOUS 24 HOURS. ALSO,
A CHILD THAT IS NOT ABLE TO FULLY PARTICIPATE IN CHILDCARE
FOR ANY REASON (OVERTIRED, OVERLY DISTRAUGHT) SHOULD NOT
BE BROUGHT TO CHILDCARE.

I will notify you if your child has been exposed to any contagious illness, outside of common colds, while in my care.
A “Day Care Immunization Form” must be completed and kept on file for each child
in my care. To keep this information up to date, I ask that you obtain a new copy of your
child’s immunizations at the appointment in which they receive their shots and provide me with a copy. You can also email me a copy after the appointment.

If your child requires any medications while in my care, they must be in the original
prescription bottle and labeled with the child’s name and dosage. I do not administer
Tylenol/Motrin and other medications from my home unless given permission from the parent or in an emergency situation. You may choose to keep a bottle of Tylenol/Motrin at my home for such times. Please provide me with a bottle labeled with your child’s name at time of enrollment. If a child has a fever while in daycare, I will not give them Tylenol to ward off a fever to get them through the day. I will only administer Tylenol if a child has a non-contagious illness, or is past the contagious period and needs it for pain. (ie ear infection).

If your child has been given any medication in the morning before coming to daycare, I will need to be told this at drop off time. In the event of any emergency with your child, it will be important to have this information.

Although I may ask for a doctor’s note with a diagnosis, the decision as to whether a child can return to daycare is a decision that is made by me, not by a doctor. I reserve the right to request a doctor’s note at any time with a child’s diagnosis and treatment plan. In the event a contagious illness has been reoccurring and is difficult to prevent from spreading in the daycare (ie Strep throat), I may ask that all children get tested for that illness at the same time to prevent further occurrences and that proof of a negative test be necessary to return to daycare.

In addition, if your child is ill and has a sibling in my care, I ask that the sibling also be kept home. In most cases the sibling is also developing the illness and is in the earlier ‘contagious’ stage. This helps to avoid the spread of illness to other children in my care.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:50 PM
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Well I can see her complaint. Nothing says you will exclude for an extended period. If the child doesn't have any of the symptoms listed, you may loose in court if you push it. That is all being said with the understanding I am not a judge or lawyer.
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:51 PM
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I don't want to argue with anyone, but the CDC also says it is contagious for 5-7 days. I spoke with a rep on the phone as well as a public health nurse in our county.

So CDC is basically saying 'send your kid to daycare with contagious influenza'. Does that seem wise? I just don't get it. I feel like the 24 hr fever free things is more of a guideline as to when the sick child might be ready to return, not when it is actually safe.
No wonder the Flu is so widespread right now.
I have to run, but am looking forward to more input.
Thanks everyone!
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Old 03-16-2016, 03:59 PM
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Based on the info in this thread and in your illness policy you're fine and you didn't breach your contract. It clearly says that the decision is up to you when the child can return to daycare even with a Dr's note.

Now all you have to do is to decide whether you want to go after your money or whether you just want them out of your hair. If you go after your money make sure that you communicate only in writing and send a copy of whatever you send the parents to your licensing analyst. Let licensing know what happened and that you have a feeling that she might suddenly have an "issue" worth reporting.

Regardless whether or not you go after your money make sure that you collect their belongings and allow them to pick them up (I'd include an itemized list of what you are returning and keep a copy of it for yourself). Set up a time to return their things while someone else is home so you have a witness, have them verify that everything you have on the list is there. This is so that they don't claim that something is missing. If it's another parent that would be best but it could be your husband or a friend.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:17 PM
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I don't see how you would be in breach, either. This dcp just seems peeved that she got told no.

Really. She knows about all your conditions and exclusions. And agreed to them by signing your contract and enrolling her children in your care. That you have medically fragile people in your daycare. And she still wants to push it? Is she for real? I don't know about your area but we are bombarded during influenza season with how dangerous it can be for these populations. She has 2 children diagnosed. For pity's sake.

I think you will be in for a battle to get your 2 weeks but I certainly would not want to deal with them anymore. I have no inkling as to how a ruling would go but I think that "breach of contract" is an intimidation tactic on her part to scare you into not pursuing.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:27 PM
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Originally Posted by childcaremom View Post
I don't see how you would be in breach, either. This dcp just seems peeved that she got told no.

Really. She knows about all your conditions and exclusions. And agreed to them by signing your contract and enrolling her children in your care. That you have medically fragile people in your daycare. And she still wants to push it? Is she for real? I don't know about your area but we are bombarded during influenza season with how dangerous it can be for these populations. She has 2 children diagnosed. For pity's sake.

I think you will be in for a battle to get your 2 weeks but I certainly would not want to deal with them anymore. I have no inkling as to how a ruling would go but I think that "breach of contract" is an intimidation tactic on her part to scare you into not pursuing.
I agree that the provider can exclude for the seven days. I just don't think she will get the two weeks paid. At the end of the day we get to make the final call, but the money is always a different issue.
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Old 03-16-2016, 04:46 PM
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If the parent chooses to terminate care (for whatever reason) they are still obligated to pay the two week notice.

Payment for a two week notice of withdrawal has nothing to do with the disagreement.
The exclusion policy is what the parent has issues with.

The next legal option the parent would have is to request fees be returned ONLY for time/days the child was excluded. This doesn't mean they are entitled to it; its just the next legal option they have.

The contagious period doesn't matter.
The provider asked that the child not attend.
The provider is the owner/boss.

Past issues and the number of occassions you waived policies and/or made exceptions and went above and beyond are irrelevant. It has nothing to do with now.

The only disagreement I see is payment for the days the parent wanted to bring child and wasnt allowed too. The parent can sue for a refund but would bear the burden proving her argument.

I'd terminate care effective immediately (send written notice) and request payment for the two weeks notice.
Give a date to be paid by.
If not paid, file in small claims court.
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Old 03-17-2016, 12:33 AM
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Always get a 2 week deposit in the future and apply it to the final two weeks. So many providers get burned when things turn sour. If you had had a two week deposit you could let them go and still have the payment.

You did nothing wrong, the situation you were in at the time (cancer, immunocomromised, pregnant client etc) gave you full right to extend the amount of time the child was excluded. I am sure it was not fun for mom but it comes with the territory when you have kids in home daycare. I once had to exclude a child for lice for two weeks! Her other daughter went off to school full of lice and nits passing it on to all the other kids. Not happening at my house! i also excluded a child for 7 days for diarrhea. The Dr told the parents that it was from something she ate. I have no idea what she could have eaten that would give her diarrhea for 7 days or how a DR would even know that. The Dr was either a moron or the parents were lying to get her back in care.
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Old 03-17-2016, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hgonzalez View Post
Thrifty Lady, How long would you exclude for Influenza, knowing they are contagious for 1 day prior to symptoms and 5-7 days after?

I feel I would be doing my other families a big disservice by allowing a child to attend who is still contagious with a possibly serious illness. I can't get past that.
I would exclude the same as you do. Influenza lasts a long time. They couldn't return to my home until there is a reasonable certainty that they are no longer contagious.
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Old 03-17-2016, 07:19 AM
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If mom is the type to retaliate then she will do it whether or not you push for the 2wks pay. I'd see her in court and let the judge decide. Based on the info you gave, it looks like you were within your rights and contract to exclude for as long as you felt necessary. Send a certified letter stating how much is owed and a due date as well as how much late fees will be if not paid by due date.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:04 AM
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I agree with the last few PP.
I tend to exclude longer than other providers in my area for illnesses I deem highly contagious.

When a parent reaches out to me (and I'm in the same state as you) to report an illness, I save a PDF/email the illness fact sheet.
The link is here in Section 6:
http://www.hennepin.us/childcaremanual#Sec9

I would stick to my contract and be very factual/non-emotional about it. Keep repeating the same line (ex; As stated in my contract that you signed, a written two week notice is required and payment for those two weeks is expected on X). If she keeps pushing it with you and wants to confront the issue after that, then I'd block her calls and send a certified letter containing what is owed, services rendered, dates and timeframe you expect to be paid.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowmom View Post
I agree with the last few PP.
I tend to exclude longer than other providers in my area for illnesses I deem highly contagious.

When a parent reaches out to me (and I'm in the same state as you) to report an illness, I save a PDF/email the illness fact sheet.
The link is here in Section 6:
http://www.hennepin.us/childcaremanual#Sec9

I would stick to my contract and be very factual/non-emotional about it. Keep repeating the same line (ex; As stated in my contract that you signed, a written two week notice is required and payment for those two weeks is expected on X). If she keeps pushing it with you and wants to confront the issue after that, then I'd block her calls and send a certified letter containing what is owed, services rendered, dates and timeframe you expect to be paid.
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Old 03-17-2016, 03:52 PM
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Oh, you're totally good. You've got it all covered in your policy. I would definitely go after the last two weeks. I wouldn't exclude for another 5 to 7 days after the fever was gone, but I think I would excluded for more than just 24 hours fever free. Maybe 48. But that's personal preference. And because you have the clause in your contact (that they signed!) that you get to make the final decision, there's no breach of contract on your end.
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Old 03-22-2016, 10:40 AM
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I had this happen this week too. Dr wrote a note that she could return 24 hours after temp. Mom said flu but she wasn't swabbed soooo she stayed home an extra day but was truely fine. She fully participated and had no symptoms. So I do not think she had influenza. My neighbor had it (swabbed) and she truely was sick for the full week! And the doctor had her off for the full week. I have one out right now that was swabbed and the doc said out for the week.
So, I am making sure my policy states for the flu, they must be out the full week.
Always tweaking. I do not have that siblings must be out... I don't know if I can make that one happen. That would be a dream... honestly though, the sibs I have now don't get each other sick.
I do have that I will not care for a child 24 hours after they are released from the hospital or emergency room. Just one for other people to consider. It may seem like common sense but had a parent try...
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Old 03-22-2016, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSteinel'sHouse View Post
I had this happen this week too. Dr wrote a note that she could return 24 hours after temp. Mom said flu but she wasn't swabbed soooo she stayed home an extra day but was truely fine. She fully participated and had no symptoms. So I do not think she had influenza. My neighbor had it (swabbed) and she truely was sick for the full week! And the doctor had her off for the full week. I have one out right now that was swabbed and the doc said out for the week.
So, I am making sure my policy states for the flu, they must be out the full week.
Always tweaking. I do not have that siblings must be out... I don't know if I can make that one happen. That would be a dream... honestly though, the sibs I have now don't get each other sick.
I do have that I will not care for a child 24 hours after they are released from the hospital or emergency room. Just one for other people to consider. It may seem like common sense but had a parent try...
I don't exclude siblings either as they rarely get the same illnesses but when it comes to severe illnesses such as Influenza I DO exclude siblings simply because I don't want anyone from that family carrying the germs into my house.

Colds, stomach bugs etc .....no issues with healthy siblings...those types of germs are everywhere but the more serious ones, I have to exclude. Too many compromised immune systems here.
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