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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 09:47 AM 11-05-2014
I just terminated my child care arrangement for DCK2. I tried for 2 months and it was NOT working at all. He is completely non-verbal and refuses to attempt sign, or even basic body language like nodding his head. He is aggressive with the other kids and the final straw was that he has started trying to swallow things around my house - coins, rocks, art supplies including but not limited to the tips of all my markers, the corners of my foam floor mats etc.
The mother seemed ok with it when I told her that I would be terminating in 2 weeks. The next day she asked me for a written list of all of the challenges, concerns, and issues I had with him. Saying she needs to know these things. I can't help but feel like it is a trap of some sort (paranoid). Also I can't figure out how to write such a list. I have always been taught that if you are going to give a criticism or negative then it should be accompanied by a positive. A list doesn't really lend itself to that. Thoughts? Ideas? Am I being paranoid?
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Soccermom 09:55 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Littlehouse-Lotsofkids:
I just terminated my child care arrangement for DCK2. I tried for 2 months and it was NOT working at all. He is completely non-verbal and refuses to attempt sign, or even basic body language like nodding his head. He is aggressive with the other kids and the final straw was that he has started trying to swallow things around my house - coins, rocks, art supplies including but not limited to the tips of all my markers, the corners of my foam floor mats etc.
The mother seemed ok with it when I told her that I would be terminating in 2 weeks. The next day she asked me for a written list of all of the challenges, concerns, and issues I had with him. Saying she needs to know these things. I can't help but feel like it is a trap of some sort (paranoid). Also I can't figure out how to write such a list. I have always been taught that if you are going to give a criticism or negative then it should be accompanied by a positive. A list doesn't really lend itself to that. Thoughts? Ideas? Am I being paranoid?
I assume she has noticed some strange behaviors from the child at home as well and is looking to have him evaluated.

She is likely asking you to give her a list of unusual things you noticed him doing in order to present them to her pediatrician since you spent a lot of time with him. She probably trusts that you know what is odd for a child that age since you work with children.

I would help her out but I would ask up front what her intentions with this list are.
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:03 AM 11-05-2014
I should have specified that both Mom and Dad have made it very clear to me that they have no concerns about him at all, especially his speech because they know someone who didn't talk until they were 3 and she talks all the time now. They also say ALL of the other behavior does not happen at their house or when with friends with kids. He never pushes or hits and doesn't put anything in his mouth at home.
I would love to think that maybe they want the information to bring up with their doctor and maybe get some screening done but I really do not feel like that is the case here.
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Soccermom 10:08 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Littlehouse-Lotsofkids:
I should have specified that both Mom and Dad have made it very clear to me that they have no concerns about him at all, especially his speech because they know someone who didn't talk until they were 3 and she talks all the time now. They also say ALL of the other behavior does not happen at their house or when with friends with kids. He never pushes or hits and doesn't put anything in his mouth at home.
I would love to think that maybe they want the information to bring up with their doctor and maybe get some screening done but I really do not feel like that is the case here.
Isn't that frustrating? I swear some people raise their kids with blinders on. In that case, I would say that a list of concerns is not something you provide to families upon termination and that you chose to term because he was not a good fit for your program (or home).
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MissLiz610 10:10 AM 11-05-2014
I agree that I too would be concerned with writing a list of things and what her intention is to do with the list. Rather than just making a list of issues, does your state have a child assessment form that is done on the children? If so, just use that form to go over where he is developmentally compared to where he should be at. That way it covers you professionally and handles her concerns at the same time.
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Solandia 10:11 AM 11-05-2014
I would just tell them that you have already addressed concerns as issues came up. But...f they need you to fill out a questionnaire of some sort as part of an eval in the near future, that you would be able to help at that time.

The only time I did a list of issues was when the parents needed to address real issues with their child, and the pedi was labeling their concerns as First Time Parent Syndrome.
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Annalee 10:11 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Littlehouse-Lotsofkids:
I should have specified that both Mom and Dad have made it very clear to me that they have no concerns about him at all, especially his speech because they know someone who didn't talk until they were 3 and she talks all the time now. They also say ALL of the other behavior does not happen at their house or when with friends with kids. He never pushes or hits and doesn't put anything in his mouth at home.
I would love to think that maybe they want the information to bring up with their doctor and maybe get some screening done but I really do not feel like that is the case here.
I would keep it simple since she is leaving your care..something like the child has social-emotional issues or learning delays....whatever the case may be, then I would give her resources for where the child could be tested.

If they were in my care to stay, I would be more specific......but I am leery of anyone whom has been terminated. Good luck!
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Shell 10:13 AM 11-05-2014
Maybe a progress report would work. The CDC has guidelines of what to expect at different ages, you could use that as your reference. I would use specific language from their handouts, nothing else. The other part of me says why bother?! If they aren't concerned, and the child is leaving, I would just say something like, "I'm very busy with paperwork at this time. My concerns are x,y,z if you would like to write them down yourself. I would not bend over backwards if you feel they aren't going to use your list with good intentions.
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cheerfuldom 10:14 AM 11-05-2014
I would tell mom that I am not open to rediscussing the termination. I would however provide numbers to local resources to have her child evaluated. Professionals can help her figure out if his behaviors are normal for his age or if further attention is needed. I would end with "It is very possible that I was not the right fit for his needs but on the other hand, professionals will be able to appropriately evaluate his milestones as well as decide what, if any, measures and resources may be available to him"
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KiddieCahoots 10:17 AM 11-05-2014
I wouldn't. Now that you've terminated, it's no longer your concern.
If the dcp's were that interested before, then before is when they should have asked you for your input and help.
You could always tell them that once they establish an EI worker, then you would be more than happy to discuss it with the worker, once they've signed the necessary paperwork to do so, but I don 't think I'd put myself out there for that either.
I may be too burnt out to answer this question in a biased manner, but feel there are a lot of parents that are in denial and looking for retaliation rather than help, like these dcp's sound to be.
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Unregistered 10:18 AM 11-05-2014
I am seeing major redflags of Autism (my son was diagnosed at two - now 12). If they are going for assessments, then your findings would be extremely important, but if you feel like it's a trap then don't put anything in writing. Maybe they are keeping their suspicions on the dl until they know anything for sure? We did at the beginning. And btw, we also downplayed the speech concerns for the exact reasons as these parents. Would you be comfortable suggesting they see a Dr and if he needs to know anything, then you'd be more comfortable listing everything.

Monkey Toes
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melilley 10:20 AM 11-05-2014
I agree with Ceerfuldom and Shell.
Here is a link to the CDC website. You can download and print off milestone checklists among other things. You could pass this on to dcm or print one off and fill it out to give to her.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/actearly/index.html

There is also the Zero to Three program. Here the link to that: http://zerotothree.org/
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TaylorTots 10:26 AM 11-05-2014
Don't give her the chance to use it for any bad intentions she may have.

"DCM, I'd be happy to give my challenges, concerns and issues to either your pediatrician or their nurse so that they can have him evaluated. I'm glad you are one of the responsible parents out there, rather than one who just ignores these issues when experienced professionals like myself see so many warning signs. Please have them call me during business hours or they can mail/fax me a form to complete for his much needed screening."

A little passive aggressiveness might keep her from having an argument with you about his need to be evaluated.
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Heidi 10:26 AM 11-05-2014
If you want to do an ASQ-SE assessment, you can find it here:

file:///C:/Users/Birgit/Downloads/ASQ-SE%2024-Month%20Questionnaire%20(Eng).pdf

Scoring information is here:

http://stephanl.faculty.mjc.edu/UsingASQSE.pdf

Basically, every 'Z" is o points, "V" or boxes marked "concern" is 5, and "X" is 10.

Here is the score sheet:

http://www.healthyfamiliesnewyork.or...sqse110312.pdf

I would write down your concerns, in any case, or do a quick CDC "milestones" form.
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Blackcat31 10:27 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
I would tell mom that I am not open to rediscussing the termination. I would however provide numbers to local resources to have her child evaluated. Professionals can help her figure out if his behaviors are normal for his age or if further attention is needed. I would end with "It is very possible that I was not the right fit for his needs but on the other hand, professionals will be able to appropriately evaluate his milestones as well as decide what, if any, measures and resources may be available to him"

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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:28 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by TaylorTots:
Don't give her the chance to use it for any bad intentions she may have.

"DCM, I'd be happy to give my challenges, concerns and issues to either your pediatrician or their nurse so that they can have him evaluated. I'm glad you are one of the responsible parents out there, rather than one who just ignores these issues when experienced professionals like myself see so many warning signs. Please have them call me during business hours or they can mail/fax me a form to complete for his much needed screening."
But she has not said that she planned on bringing them to her doctor or for screening. Just that "she should know these things."
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:30 AM 11-05-2014
It would be no problem for me if I thought that the information was going to be used for a doctor or screening but I don't even want to bring it up at this point because they have been very clear before about it being a non-issue.
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Unregistered 10:34 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Shell:
Maybe a progress report would work. The CDC has guidelines of what to expect at different ages, you could use that as your reference. I would use specific language from their handouts, nothing else. The other part of me says why bother?! If they aren't concerned, and the child is leaving, I would just say something like, "I'm very busy with paperwork at this time. My concerns are x,y,z if you would like to write them down yourself. I would not bend over backwards if you feel they aren't going to use your list with good intentions.
I think it's smart to give her a brief verbal list like Shell said, and then let them know that if they address concerns to their doctor or school system, they should get a full evaluation.
*BIG SMILE* And leave it at that.
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nannyde 10:37 AM 11-05-2014
Tell her that the concerns are specifically what you have talked to her about. If she would like to write these concerns up and gave you review and sign, you are willing to do that as long as there isn't a need to discuss. You will review them after the child's last day and mail your response within a week.

Put it back on HER.

If she says she can't remember, tell her you can't either. If he only does these things at your house she has no reason to be even slightly concerned. It's definitely the environment not the kid. ;-)
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Hunni Bee 10:40 AM 11-05-2014
No, that sounds like a trap of some sort to me too. If she feels like there are no concerns, then what is she asking for? If she is concerned, then why now all of a sudden? If you've told her verbally, then she has that info.

I would do as the others said and provide her with the numbers of where he can be evaluated, but I wouldn't discuss with her any further nor provide her with any written documents that could come back to bite you.
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:45 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:

If she says she can't remember, tell her you can't either. If he only does these things at your house she has no reason to be even slightly concerned. It's definitely the environment not the kid. ;-)
Hahaha I wish I could say this to her.
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:47 AM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Hunni Bee:
No, that sounds like a trap of some sort to me too. If she feels like there are no concerns, then what is she asking for? If she is concerned, then why now all of a sudden? If you've told her verbally, then she has that info.

I would do as the others said and provide her with the numbers of where he can be evaluated, but I wouldn't discuss with her any further nor provide her with any written documents that could come back to bite you.
I'm glad, at least, that I am not just being paranoid... or maybe childcare has made us all a bit paranoid? Regardless, I am not alone in feeling like this could go wrong.
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CraftyMom 10:50 AM 11-05-2014
Nope! Don't do it! I had a mom that asked specifics in a text, I was thinking she was wanting to help the situation. Nope, she brought the text to licensing, who in turn paid me a visit. Mom deleted HER parts of the text, making it look way different than it was. It made me look bad in licensing's eyes. She also deleted the parts that stated things I had been doing over the past few months to correct certain behaviors, and back and forth conversations on the situation and how we would work together to change the behaviors. She picked and chose words, creating a whole different conversation. Luckily I still had ALL of it in my phone!

That was when I was very new, now I know differently.

Do not put it in writing for her. She has ill intent
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Second Home 10:50 AM 11-05-2014
I also think this may be a sort of trap . A way to place blame on you for something .
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AmyKidsCo 12:06 PM 11-05-2014
ITA that writing a list could come back to haunt you. I'd simply say that he's not a good fit for your program and leave it at that.
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cheerfuldom 12:08 PM 11-05-2014
Nope. I would not do any extra work for a former daycare parent especially when there is no evaluation involved. My guess would be that she is collecting info to use against you in a licensing or CPS complaint. Do not give her anything in writing.

Again, I would tell her that you are not open to rediscussing the termination. Suggest she have her new caregiver document his behavior as it is possible that what you experienced with him was due to environment. He may be completely different at the next place.

Just be vague and do not commit to anything in writing! If she really cared about this in order to help him, why was she not concerned when you had discussions BEFORE termination?
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Dilley Beans 12:20 PM 11-05-2014
What does NannyDe say? "That is not a service I provide"

On a more serious note, it sounds to me like she's planning on a discrimination case. I wouldn't write anything down except that he isn't a fit for your group care.
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TaylorTots 12:31 PM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Littlehouse-Lotsofkids:
But she has not said that she planned on bringing them to her doctor or for screening. Just that "she should know these things."
Right but by this way, you are not failing the child in your mind at all. If you offer to give them to the professionals, you aren't withholding any information that may help this child be evaluated. I'd give the "not the service I provide to you" bit but you would be happy to send them to the pediatricians' office for his much needed evaluation/screening.
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itlw8 01:16 PM 11-05-2014
Do not include anything about being non verbal in writing as a reason. That would be discrimination and you can be sued. DO give her these reasons that you stated and how because you are the only one you can not supervise closely enough to prevent the danger from choking with him getting older .


He is aggressive with the other kids and the final straw was that he has started trying to swallow things around my house - coins, rocks, art supplies including but not limited to the tips of all my markers, the corners of my foam floor mats etc.
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CraftyMom 01:35 PM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by itlw8:

He is aggressive with the other kids and the final straw was that he has started trying to swallow things around my house - coins, rocks, art supplies including but not limited to the tips of all my markers, the corners of my foam floor mats etc.

I would be careful about this. It could be turned around that your home is not safe...coins and small articles left around where children can reach them and possibly choke.

I am not saying this is the case, we know kids find things, some bring them in their pockets! Just saying mom or licensing may think otherwise

Maybe word it such as "I do my best to make sure the environment is safe, however xxxx has been putting everything in his mouth..."
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 03:17 PM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by CraftyMom:
I would be careful about this. It could be turned around that your home is not safe...coins and small articles left around where children can reach them and possibly choke.

I am not saying this is the case, we know kids find things, some bring them in their pockets! Just saying mom or licensing may think otherwise

Maybe word it such as "I do my best to make sure the environment is safe, however xxxx has been putting everything in his mouth..."
Thank you. I definitely would not word it like that to her. That is a good point.
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 03:25 PM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by itlw8:
Do not include anything about being non verbal in writing as a reason. That would be discrimination and you can be sued. DO give her these reasons that you stated and how because you are the only one you can not supervise closely enough to prevent the danger from choking with him getting older .
.
Good point. The lack of verbal communication is not a reason that I would terminate their childcare in itself but the lack of verbal and non-verbal communication leads to bigger issues that I do not have the man power to deal with on top of all of the other children in my care.

If I do end up writing anything up for it I will leave that part out so it cannot be interpreted as me discriminating against him.
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hope 03:28 PM 11-05-2014
Originally Posted by Dilley Beans:
What does NannyDe say? "That is not a service I provide"

On a more serious note, it sounds to me like she's planning on a discrimination case. I wouldn't write anything down except that he isn't a fit for your group care.
I agree with this. You have already told her how her child has been in your care. Did she forget? I doubt it. You did your job. Your job is now done. If she needs to know where her child falls short than she can get him evaluated and a professional in that field can write something for her. I really think her motive here is a law suit.
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kitykids3 04:29 PM 11-05-2014
Yup, definitely sounds like a trap. I would not be writing ANYTHING down other than your program and he were not a fit and some numbers for local agencies. Honestly though, at this point, they are leaving or have left, so I personally wouldn't take the time to write anything down when you've already discussed everything with her. If she really is concerned, she can bring it up with his doc and get help moving forward. I can't think of any real good reason she needs that all in writing.
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daycarediva 09:57 AM 11-06-2014
Originally Posted by itlw8:
Do not include anything about being non verbal in writing as a reason. That would be discrimination and you can be sued. DO give her these reasons that you stated and how because you are the only one you can not supervise closely enough to prevent the danger from choking with him getting older .


He is aggressive with the other kids and the final straw was that he has started trying to swallow things around my house - coins, rocks, art supplies including but not limited to the tips of all my markers, the corners of my foam floor mats etc.
Originally Posted by CraftyMom:
I would be careful about this. It could be turned around that your home is not safe...coins and small articles left around where children can reach them and possibly choke.

I am not saying this is the case, we know kids find things, some bring them in their pockets! Just saying mom or licensing may think otherwise

Maybe word it such as "I do my best to make sure the environment is safe, however xxxx has been putting everything in his mouth..."
I agree.

IF I gave her something, it would be JUST the standard form I give to everyone I terminate. I would cite increasing safety concerns- hitting, biting and leave it at that.

NOTHING about delays or suspected developmental issues, and that's most certainly discrimination.
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Cat Herder 10:04 AM 11-06-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
If he only does these things at your house she has no reason to be even slightly concerned. It's definitely the environment not the kid. ;-)
THIS is the only saving grace that is left for us.

Everything else will become our respon$ibility without this clause.

Learn it, embrace it and hope it lasts another year or two.

Pretty soon terminating a bad fit will be considered emotional abuse or neglectful of families needs. We are halfway there..... It is currently "unprofessional".
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hope 10:16 AM 11-06-2014
I would also print out any emails and texts you have had with the family. You can download a free app to print out texts. This way you have proof in case she does as PP said.
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:31 AM 11-06-2014
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
I agree.

IF I gave her something, it would be JUST the standard form I give to everyone I terminate. I would cite increasing safety concerns- hitting, biting and leave it at that.

NOTHING about delays or suspected developmental issues, and that's most certainly discrimination.
I have already given her a letter saying I was terminating the child care arrangement. What she was asking for was specific challenges and concerns I had with him while in my care so she "would know." Me being CONCERNED about his speech development is not discrimination. But I could see how it could be twisted. It would be different if she was asking for such a list BEFORE I gave her 2 weeks notice.
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Littlehouse-Lotsofkids 10:37 AM 11-06-2014
I think I have decided to "forget" to make the list for now since she has not brought it back up and his last day is tomorrow. If she does bring it up I am going to just verbally tell her I was concerned with the aggressive behavior towards the other children and that my child care is not set up in a way that allows me to give him the supervision he needs to keep him from putting objects in his mouth while still giving the other children the attention they need as well. If she asks for anymore than that I will just say that she is aware of anything else because I have brought up any other issues as they arose.
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JoseyJo 11:03 AM 11-06-2014
Originally Posted by Littlehouse-Lotsofkids:
I think I have decided to "forget" to make the list for now since she has not brought it back up and his last day is tomorrow. If she does bring it up I am going to just verbally tell her I was concerned with the aggressive behavior towards the other children and that my child care is not set up in a way that allows me to give him the supervision he needs to keep him from putting objects in his mouth while still giving the other children the attention they need as well. If she asks for anymore than that I will just say that she is aware of anything else because I have brought up any other issues as they arose.
Even though she says "list of concerns" it sounds to me like what she really wants is a list of the reasons on why YOU are concerned enough to term. If you say you are concerned about his speech, developmental problems, etc, it may look like you are terming for those reasons even when you are not, and it may look like you are either not providing proper supervision, or that you are discriminating. If she truely wants a "list of concerns" then she would have asked before you termed, and/or she can bring you a dr's eval worksheet.

IF it were me, I verbally tell her your reasons for terming. I Anything you say about your setup/supervision/etc and his needs opens you up to problems, and licensing could easily say you are in the wrong. (IMO)

If she says again that she needs a written list of your concerns about his development I would say "Sure! I can do that. When you go to have him evaluated the dr/therapist/etc will have a form for caregivers to fill out, bring that to me and I will be happy to fill it out." If she says "no, I just want it for me", I would say "oh okay... the aggression is the reason that I had to have you find other arrangements, but a few things I noticed that you may want to look into are his (insert your concerns about non-verbal, rocking, mouthing, etc). If she asks you to write it all down I would say "Why? are you taking this to a dr to have him evaluated?" (No) "Okay then, it isn't a ton of things to remember- nonverbal, rocking, mouthing..." (Big smile)
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Thriftylady 02:33 PM 11-09-2014
I agree I wouldn't do it either. IF she had brought me the forms from the doctor for screening for things, I would have filled them out and returned them for her to take to the doctor. But that isn't even what she is doing now. The doctor doesn't want a list, they have their own forms for these things (did them on DD when she was little the thing was all the negative stuff was happening at home and none at school so it was a parent issue lol). Likely this is a parenting issue also, but the parents don't believe it yet. I honestly would just say "I have already discussed it with you and that's all I can do".
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christine19720 06:48 AM 11-13-2014
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
I would tell mom that I am not open to rediscussing the termination. I would however provide numbers to local resources to have her child evaluated. Professionals can help her figure out if his behaviors are normal for his age or if further attention is needed. I would end with "It is very possible that I was not the right fit for his needs but on the other hand, professionals will be able to appropriately evaluate his milestones as well as decide what, if any, measures and resources may be available to him"
I like this.
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Tags:letter to parents, termed, terminate
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