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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Please..Deal With Your Child. Am I Wrong?
providerandmomof4 09:31 AM 12-08-2013
I have written recently about the problems I have been having with a 2 yr dcb at dropoff. Well the fits have stopped due to quick drop offs at the door. Dcm doesn't come in and he is walking in on his own (dcm used to carry him in or try to hand him to me kicking and screaming) That has stopped. Yea!
Now we have a new issue. I have him and his sis put on their shoes and put up toys about 15 mins before she is due to arrive. She is pretty consistent about her pick up times, which is good. Well...this little guy has decided he will not participate in clean up or getting ready to go. I figure it is the end of a 9.5 hr day and he has had it. So I usually cut him some slack and only have him get out a few toys so it isn't overwhelming to pick up and I help him. This past few weeks, when he learns that it is the end of the day, and almost pickup time, he refuses to do anything I ask and begins to really act out. Running up to my dch and hitting him while laughing. Running into the playroom, grabbing toys and throwing them at others. I shut the playroom, turn off the light and tell him it's time to get ready to go...I try to make it a calm time and they are the last pickups.
Now he refuses to put on shoes and socks or coat. Screaming like he's being tortured when I try to put them on. So, when dcm came on Friday I just handed her his shoes and socks and coat and said that I wasn't going to have another power struggle with him. I tell her that maybe (once again) if I didn't give him the negative attention, then he would stop.
So, she struggled with him for 5-10 mins in my entryway putting his shoes on. She gave him the cookies we had made at dc that day as a bribe, but he still was throwing a huge fit and getting the cookies everywhere. Oh my! She finally got his shoes and coat on and he ran down my stairs, which is off my side entry, and into my basement where no dc kids (or parents for that matter) are allowed, and she knows this....GRRR
Has anyone dealt with this child? I thought that by putting it back on mom, maybe she would handle it, but that obviously was not the case. I cannot have a repeat of that ridiculousness. Any suggestions? It's already such a late day and I am tired of the shenanigans
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Unregistered 10:34 AM 12-08-2013
I'm registered but it won't let me log in...

Anyway, I would take complete control. Picking up toys doing hand-over-hand (me holding his hand and manipulating it to pick up the toy) then thanking him so much for helping clean up. Hold on to him at all times, so he cannot run away.
Sit on the floor with him between my legs and again using hand-over-hand to put on his shoes, coat etc.

Yes, it's complicated, a hassle, and takes time, but usually it's only a few days (or maybe only a single day) before they get that I am in charge, and if I say something is going to happen, it's going to happen, period - it is not a choice.
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Maria2013 10:35 AM 12-08-2013
I'm sorry for you

my kids act that way only with their parents, so I make sure they're totally dressed and ready to go right when the parent shows up
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Unregistered 10:44 AM 12-08-2013
I had this child. Exact child only he was an only child. he started at the age of 2 and was with me for a year. My advice is term if you can. The behavior only continued to get worse as he got older. He ran the show more and more. He was increasingly more aggressive to my own children at pickups. I tried everything, utilized the advice of some of the users on this site and read books on child behavior. EVERYTHING. Dcm would tell him it was time to go and he would scream in her face, throw stuff, push my kids, etc. She would just stand there making empty threats or doing nothing at all. Finally I started picking him up and putting his stuff on and handing him to her just to get him out of my house and she had the nerve to say that I was giving into him by not making him do it himself, that he was lucky I was so nice, etc. She did nothing to correct his behavior. The same charade would occur in my yard/driveway after they shut the door. EVERY DAY FOR A YEAR. Screaming bloody murder, running away, crying, breaking my outside toys, etc.

I waited way too long. If you can afford to term, do it. Give her a final warning that if it's not corrected within 2 weeks it's immediate term (or whatever your handbook allows).
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Unregistered 10:48 AM 12-08-2013
(I was previous unregistered poster) BTW I tried the whole having him ready when mom pulled up. Did not work. As soon as I started putting his stuff on (yes, me putting it on. He absolutely refused to do it every time) he would know it was almost time to leave and would immediately start acting out before dcm got here. When he seen her pull in the drive, it was hit my kids, throw stuff at them, jump on furniture, etc. Tried playing outside right before pickup in the summer, as soon as he seen her vehicle he would run up and hit or push one of my kids before I had a chance to get to him. just term.
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Maria2013 10:58 AM 12-08-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
(I was previous unregistered poster) BTW I tried the whole having him ready when mom pulled up. Did not work. As soon as I started putting his stuff on (yes, me putting it on. He absolutely refused to do it every time) he would know it was almost time to leave and would immediately start acting out before dcm got here. When he seen her pull in the drive, it was hit my kids, throw stuff at them, jump on furniture, etc. Tried playing outside right before pickup in the summer, as soon as he seen her vehicle he would run up and hit or push one of my kids before I had a chance to get to him. just term.
I agree, just tern! ...when child wins a power struggle, he/she will definitely find new ways to manipulate no money is worth putting up with that
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providerandmomof4 11:19 AM 12-08-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I'm registered but it won't let me log in...

Anyway, I would take complete control. Picking up toys doing hand-over-hand (me holding his hand and manipulating it to pick up the toy) then thanking him so much for helping clean up. Hold on to him at all times, so he cannot run away.
Sit on the floor with him between my legs and again using hand-over-hand to put on his shoes, coat etc.

Yes, it's complicated, a hassle, and takes time, but usually it's only a few days (or maybe only a single day) before they get that I am in charge, and if I say something is going to happen, it's going to happen, period - it is not a choice.
I did this with him on Wednesday and Thurs last week and by Friday I had had it and decided to let mom deal with it. Plus I was afraid of what his sister was saying to his mom. He was screaming bloody murder while I was putting on his shoes and she (4yrs) said, "hey, leave my brother alone you're hurting him." I said, "Dcg, I'm not hurting him, he's just mad that I'm making him put on his shoes." But then I got to thinking, I wonder what she's telling her mom? I shouldn't have to struggle like this with a 2 yr old. Kwim?
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nannyde 11:41 AM 12-08-2013
Can you video tape you getting him ready? That would solve the sisters accusations. I would always have her in an area out of sight of you when you are getting him ready. Make her go sit away from you with back turned. She needs a swift and immediate consequence for accusing you of harming him and you need to talk to mom about the accusation immediately when she arrives with the girl present. Tell them both you are now taping it and if she accuses you again you will term immediately.

I would have him get ready to leave at least ten times a day. I would devote at least two weeks if play time dressing him and having him pick up. He would then have a ten minute sit in full go home gear. Then he would get up, get undressed and go play. He would do it so much he would never know which time was the time. I would require the mom to call from the driveway and only come to door. She would not be allowed in my home with him. She's a danger to your business because she behaves so badly when her son is acting up. She is disrespecting your wishes by not controlling her child. If he is going to act like am animal in public then.she, as his Mother should NOT take him into public.

I wrote a blog on this. Check it out.
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providerandmomof4 11:53 AM 12-08-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
Can you video tape you getting him ready? That would solve the sisters accusations. I would always have her in an area out of sight of you when you are getting him ready. Make her go sit away from you with back turned. She needs a swift and immediate consequence for accusing you of harming him and you need to talk to mom about the accusation immediately when she arrives with the girl present. Tell them both you are now taping it and if she accuses you again you will term immediately.

I would have him get ready to leave at least ten times a day. I would devote at least two weeks if play time dressing him and having him pick up. He would then have a ten minute sit in full go home gear. Then he would get up, get undressed and go play. He would do it so much he would never know which time was the time. I would require the mom to call from the driveway and only come to door. She would not be allowed in my home with him. She's a danger to your business because she behaves so badly when her son is acting up. She is disrespecting your wishes by not controlling her child. If he is going to act like am animal in public then.she, as his Mother should NOT take him into public.

I wrote a blog on this. Check it out.
I would love to read the blog. Where can I find it?
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providerandmomof4 12:28 PM 12-08-2013
Originally Posted by providerandmomof4:
I would love to read the blog. Where can I find it?
Found it. I completely agree. I guess I knew what needed to happen. The drop off at the door works so well in the morning...My thinking was that I wouldn't need it in the evening because he would be so happy and ready to go home. Not the case.
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nannyde 01:05 PM 12-08-2013
Originally Posted by providerandmomof4:
Found it. I completely agree. I guess I knew what needed to happen. The drop off at the door works so well in the morning...My thinking was that I wouldn't need it in the evening because he would be so happy and ready to go home. Not the case.
It's not about happiness except that he is clearly unhappy when he is put in the leadership position. He's in charge and he can't manage it. You might try having the sister ready and get her out the door so mom can get her buckled in. Shut door behind her and then dress him. Have mom come to door... open...scoot him out... shut door quickly.

Your goal is to NEVER have him and mom under your roof at the same time.

I would celebrate his screaming as you are getting him ready. He needs to blow steam and I would be happy to hear it and see it. I would smile and tell him he is a good screamer and good job!
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Heidi 05:43 PM 12-08-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
It's not about happiness except that he is clearly unhappy when he is put in the leadership position. He's in charge and he can't manage it. You might try having the sister ready and get her out the door so mom can get her buckled in. Shut door behind her and then dress him. Have mom come to door... open...scoot him out... shut door quickly.

Your goal is to NEVER have him and mom under your roof at the same time.

I would celebrate his screaming as you are getting him ready. He needs to blow steam and I would be happy to hear it and see it. I would smile and tell him he is a good screamer and good job!




Interesting idea...

I think Nan's suggestion of sending his sister out first,then getting him ready, may be an option.

Perhaps you could set them up at the table (buckled in booster seat) with an activity at the end of the day. Preferably something he enjoys. So, transition from clean-up to table time 15 minutes before pickup. If he doesn't like the table activities and tosses them, too bad.

Then, have mom call you 5 minutes out. Clean up activity (or at least their share if your own kids are still at it), send 4 year old to get ready. When mom arrives, send her out, then close door. Now, get 2 yo out of chair (he's probably yelling to get out by now?). Get him dressed, have mom wait outside and hand him out.

Once he gets the hang of it, you could forgo the booster seat. Just keep it consistent otherwise.

Do you give him limited choices? "Do you want to put your shoes on first or your coat? Do you want to clean up the duplos, or the cars?" Or 'dcb...you are in charge of cleaning up the xxx". Giving everyone assigned tasks (more complicated ones for the older kids) makes them feel a reasonable sense of power.


Also, while shoes are a necessity if it's wet or cold, a jacket or hat or mitten are not. If it's such a struggle to get them on, you could just hand those off to mom. Now, if it's deadly cold, there's no choice, but baring that, I would not fight that fight.
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Unregistered 09:37 PM 12-08-2013
Something I have done with children is to play act a difficult situation with a doll or stuffed animal. Give him a teddy bear or something during playtime, and ask him to help teddy get ready to go home. It works with the bears that have clothes, you know, the ones from the mall store. Or if you have a doll with a jacket for burgeoning, zipping tying practice, that will work. After teddy or dolly gets ready, ask him what does teddy do now ? Teddy gets into the car with mommy and goes home. Explain how important it is to have Teddy bear get ready to go home . How much fun teddy bear had. Sing a goodbye song, sing the same song while dcb gets ready to go home. I hate to disagree with Nanny D, but having one child in the car while mom comes back for the other seems like a liability if something should happen. It isn't too safe. Mom should leave with both, maybe sister can be a " helper" at the end of the day, and help Dcb sing the goodbye song. There are many different ways to help him transition.
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nannyde 05:01 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Something I have done with children is to play act a difficult situation with a doll or stuffed animal. Give him a teddy bear or something during playtime, and ask him to help teddy get ready to go home. It works with the bears that have clothes, you know, the ones from the mall store. Or if you have a doll with a jacket for burgeoning, zipping tying practice, that will work. After teddy or dolly gets ready, ask him what does teddy do now ? Teddy gets into the car with mommy and goes home. Explain how important it is to have Teddy bear get ready to go home . How much fun teddy bear had. Sing a goodbye song, sing the same song while dcb gets ready to go home. I hate to disagree with Nanny D, but having one child in the car while mom comes back for the other seems like a liability if something should happen. It isn't too safe. Mom should leave with both, maybe sister can be a " helper" at the end of the day, and help Dcb sing the goodbye song. There are many different ways to help him transition.
I think having the two year old walking with mom and sister at the same time is way bigger liability. Mom needs to just do him from door to door. Then there is no excuse for her not to hands on take him. If mom stays outside within eyeshot of the car she can supervise both.

I don't agree with any pre training that includes fun activities. I would practice the drill over and over but it would just be him following directions and good long periods of just sitting still. If you start adding play and excitement to it it will work until it becomes boring. He doesn't need fun while doing transitions. We all have to do things that are boring and we all have to wait, sit, and follow directions.
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JoseyJo 05:50 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Something I have done with children is to play act a difficult situation with a doll or stuffed animal. Give him a teddy bear or something during playtime, and ask him to help teddy get ready to go home. It works with the bears that have clothes, you know, the ones from the mall store. Or if you have a doll with a jacket for burgeoning, zipping tying practice, that will work. After teddy or dolly gets ready, ask him what does teddy do now ? Teddy gets into the car with mommy and goes home. Explain how important it is to have Teddy bear get ready to go home . How much fun teddy bear had. Sing a goodbye song, sing the same song while dcb gets ready to go home. I hate to disagree with Nanny D, but having one child in the car while mom comes back for the other seems like a liability if something should happen. It isn't too safe. Mom should leave with both, maybe sister can be a " helper" at the end of the day, and help Dcb sing the goodbye song. There are many different ways to help him transition.
Maybe I am very very jaded, but this post made me laugh out loud! To me this sounds like either a CDA student right out of school... I can't imagine this provider has ever dealt with a child like the one described by the OP.
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daycaremum 06:08 AM 12-09-2013
JoseyJo.
I would say you are jaded.
I often have talks with children before or after an event when they are calm about how they are expected to behave in that certain situation. Perhaps for this child roll playing would be effective. You just never know.
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JoseyJo 06:30 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by daycaremum:
JoseyJo.
I would say you are jaded.
I often have talks with children before or after an event when they are calm about how they are expected to behave in that certain situation. Perhaps for this child roll playing would be effective. You just never know.
LOL! Good to have it affirmed

IMO this child needs a strong leader, not to be coddled and convinced.
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Unregistered 06:32 AM 12-09-2013
I am the one who posted the play it out suggestion. I have 12 years of childcare experience, and 19 years of motherhood experience. So I am suggesting what has worked for me.
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Heidi 06:46 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
LOL! Good to have it affirmed

IMO this child needs a strong leader, not to be coddled and convinced.
Originally Posted by daycaremum:
JoseyJo.
I would say you are jaded.
I often have talks with children before or after an event when they are calm about how they are expected to behave in that certain situation. Perhaps for this child roll playing would be effective. You just never know.
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Something I have done with children is to play act a difficult situation with a doll or stuffed animal. Give him a teddy bear or something during playtime, and ask him to help teddy get ready to go home. It works with the bears that have clothes, you know, the ones from the mall store. Or if you have a doll with a jacket for burgeoning, zipping tying practice, that will work. After teddy or dolly gets ready, ask him what does teddy do now ? Teddy gets into the car with mommy and goes home. Explain how important it is to have Teddy bear get ready to go home . How much fun teddy bear had. Sing a goodbye song, sing the same song while dcb gets ready to go home. I hate to disagree with Nanny D, but having one child in the car while mom comes back for the other seems like a liability if something should happen. It isn't too safe. Mom should leave with both, maybe sister can be a " helper" at the end of the day, and help Dcb sing the goodbye song. There are many different ways to help him transition.
I'm going to go with the middle here. The idea of doing some preplanning with dcb is not a bad one. It may make it easier on everyone. But, the problem really isn't that he can't get dressed with assistance. The problem is HE DOESN'T WANT TO. You can respect children as people without coddling them. They do have to know that there is not always a choice.

My ECE class recently had us read an article promoting democracy in the classroom. I am a family childcare provider (like OP). This is NOT a democracy. It is a benevolent dictatorship. I respect the children's individual personalities and feelings, and I'll pick my battles, but I am THE leader.

As for the liability of the 4 year old. She is the child's mother. There is no "liability". She needs to take charge of both her children. If the car is parked 10 feet away, 4 year old is buckled in her car seat, and she stays outside the house, I don't see a safety issue.
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nannyde 07:04 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
Maybe I am very very jaded, but this post made me laugh out loud! To me this sounds like either a CDA student right out of school... I can't imagine this provider has ever dealt with a child like the one described by the OP.
The problem is that the role playing and teaching the child about transitions isn't the problem. He's two. I don't know how two he is but by two he should COMPLETELY understand how to get ready, clean up, and follow directions from the adult. I have infants under one who can do this. He's WAY WAY WAY too old to need an education about transitioning.

I could be wrong but my guess is that the real escalator here is the fact that this family has two children with two slots in the day care. The provider doesn't want to upset the parent because she doesn't want to loose the income of two kids.

EVERYONE knows this. The Mom knows it. The four year old knows it. The two year old knows it. They ALL know it because they see the provider change her behavior during this time to accommodate and make it look like all is well.

That's bad for everyone. The Mom, four year old, and two year old need to get with the program and know that while on the providers property they ALL need to BEHAVE.

The four year old needs to mind her own beeswax and quit telling the adult what to do. She doesn't get to get by with interjecting herself and her opinion into this. She needs to follow directions and sit quietly until it's time for her to go outside.

The Mom needs to respect that she is on the soil of another adult who does not like witnessing much less hosting her two year old behaving like a little animal. She needs to have RESPECT for the adult. She needs to get ugly with that kid and get him to KNOCK IT OFF. If they want to play like that at home that's between them and Jesus. If they are out in public they need to behave. The provider is off the clock the second the mom hits the property. The Mom needs to get her kids out the door and get them OUT of the driveway asap.

Since these kids are the last out the door the provider needs to get the older one out... shut the door... go SUPER strict with the two year old and lay the law down. Hand walk him to Mom outside and hand his hand into her hand. Let the Mom know that under NO circumstances is she to let go of him until she has him BUCKLED in the seat. He is not to step away from the car. If she allows him to walk away from the car then she will no longer be allowed the privledge of picking up in the driveway. He will have to be taken to the street. Once his feet are OFF of the provider property she is DONE DONE DONE. If the Mom allows him to go back onto the property then she is liable for anything that happens like she would be if he went to raise hell on anyone elses property.

This kid will enjoy the play acting and it may be interesting enough to be entertained with it for a few days but because transitions are not the problem it will be a mere distraction. He wants to start home behavior as soon as he can. He wants to start the change in provider behavior as soon as he can. He wants mom on site so he can act like an animal. He understands exactly what the provider wants as she is doing like things with him all day. He is just saying no to it. That's the problem.. not him understanding.

I'm not opposed to the technique of play acting. It will be an activity. You can color it... play doh it... sing it... exercise it... same difference.
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JoseyJo 07:08 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
This is NOT a democracy. It is a benevolent dictatorship. I respect the children's individual personalities and feelings, and I'll pick my battles, but I am THE leader.
Couldn't have said it better myself

I am all for roleplaying with a young, new, or inexperienced child. That is NOT this child. This child knows what is expected and is refusing to do so.
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Cradle2crayons 07:32 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I'm going to go with the middle here. The idea of doing some preplanning with dcb is not a bad one. It may make it easier on everyone. But, the problem really isn't that he can't get dressed with assistance. The problem is HE DOESN'T WANT TO. You can respect children as people without coddling them. They do have to know that there is not always a choice.

My ECE class recently had us read an article promoting democracy in the classroom. I am a family childcare provider (like OP). This is NOT a democracy. It is a benevolent dictatorship. I respect the children's individual personalities and feelings, and I'll pick my battles, but I am THE leader.

As for the liability of the 4 year old. She is the child's mother. There is no "liability". She needs to take charge of both her children. If the car is parked 10 feet away, 4 year old is buckled in her car seat, and she stays outside the house, I don't see a safety issue.
Originally Posted by nannyde:
The problem is that the role playing and teaching the child about transitions isn't the problem. He's two. I don't know how two he is but by two he should COMPLETELY understand how to get ready, clean up, and follow directions from the adult. I have infants under one who can do this. He's WAY WAY WAY too old to need an education about transitioning.

I could be wrong but my guess is that the real escalator here is the fact that this family has two children with two slots in the day care. The provider doesn't want to upset the parent because she doesn't want to loose the income of two kids.

EVERYONE knows this. The Mom knows it. The four year old knows it. The two year old knows it. They ALL know it because they see the provider change her behavior during this time to accommodate and make it look like all is well.

That's bad for everyone. The Mom, four year old, and two year old need to get with the program and know that while on the providers property they ALL need to BEHAVE.

The four year old needs to mind her own beeswax and quit telling the adult what to do. She doesn't get to get by with interjecting herself and her opinion into this. She needs to follow directions and sit quietly until it's time for her to go outside.

The Mom needs to respect that she is on the soil of another adult who does not like witnessing much less hosting her two year old behaving like a little animal. She needs to have RESPECT for the adult. She needs to get ugly with that kid and get him to KNOCK IT OFF. If they want to play like that at home that's between them and Jesus. If they are out in public they need to behave. The provider is off the clock the second the mom hits the property. The Mom needs to get her kids out the door and get them OUT of the driveway asap.

Since these kids are the last out the door the provider needs to get the older one out... shut the door... go SUPER strict with the two year old and lay the law down. Hand walk him to Mom outside and hand his hand into her hand. Let the Mom know that under NO circumstances is she to let go of him until she has him BUCKLED in the seat. He is not to step away from the car. If she allows him to walk away from the car then she will no longer be allowed the privledge of picking up in the driveway. He will have to be taken to the street. Once his feet are OFF of the provider property she is DONE DONE DONE. If the Mom allows him to go back onto the property then she is liable for anything that happens like she would be if he went to raise hell on anyone elses property.

This kid will enjoy the play acting and it may be interesting enough to be entertained with it for a few days but because transitions are not the problem it will be a mere distraction. He wants to start home behavior as soon as he can. He wants to start the change in provider behavior as soon as he can. He wants mom on site so he can act like an animal. He understands exactly what the provider wants as she is doing like things with him all day. He is just saying no to it. That's the problem.. not him understanding.

I'm not opposed to the technique of play acting. It will be an activity. You can color it... play doh it... sing it... exercise it... same difference.
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
Couldn't have said it better myself

I am all for roleplaying with a young, new, or inexperienced child. That is NOT this child. This child knows what is expected and is refusing to do so.
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
LOL! Good to have it affirmed

IMO this child needs a strong leader, not to be coddled and convinced.
and can we get an amen!! Sorry I'm Ina. Weird mood today. I spent twenty minutes out in the rabbit pen chasing a stubborn buck who refuses to stay in his pen. I frisked him but I didn't find a screwdriver anywhere. He didn't get the memo. ITS FREAKIN COLD AND WET lol.
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Heidi 08:26 AM 12-09-2013
speaking of safety issues...OT...sorry

When I was 49 (little sis was 3), mom left us in the car while she ran into the bank.

I decided to do a little dramatic play activity. No seat belts or car seats in 1968, so, I sat behind the wheel, sis in the passenger seat, and went "vroom vroom". Fine, until I put the car in reverse.

Mom and the bank teller stood in the window watching as we rolled backwards through the parking lot in slow motion, frozen like deer in the head lights.

Thankfully, both the car and the other one were those big boats, and no real damage was done.
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Heidi 08:44 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
Couldn't have said it better myself

I am all for roleplaying with a young, new, or inexperienced child. That is NOT this child. This child knows what is expected and is refusing to do so.
As I am working on my ECE degree, I am actually feeling more and more strongly that there is a certain amount of hogwash involved.

They went from teaching warm, respectful interactions to using constant redirection (I call that smoke-and-mirrors), giving children too many choices, and avoiding the word "NO" at all costs. Do I ever redirect a child? Sure. A crawling infant..."Play with toys" ( Offer toys vs. my Christmas Tree). When we were little, we got slapped on the hands a couple times, and we kept our fingers off the Christmas tree. That's not really necessary.

But, once they are 2ish, though, I think it's kind of dishonest to constantly redirect. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's not even developmentally appropriate anymore. Gradually, they need to be told the truth...gently. I had a mom of 4 that was still redirecting her almost 5 year old. HE WASN'T THAT STUPID...hence the constant temper tantrums. He'd never learned the concept of "NO means NO!"
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Blackcat31 08:48 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
speaking of safety issues...OT...sorry

When I was 49 (little sis was 3), mom left us in the car while she ran into the bank.
I decided to do a little dramatic play activity. No seat belts or car seats in 1968, so, I sat behind the wheel, sis in the passenger seat, and went "vroom vroom". Fine, until I put the car in reverse.

Mom and the bank teller stood in the window watching as we rolled backwards through the parking lot in slow motion, frozen like deer in the head lights.

Thankfully, both the car and the other one were those big boats, and no real damage was done.
Sheesh, and to think someone at 49 would know better than to mess with the car when their mom told them not too!
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Play Care 09:20 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Sheesh, and to think someone at 49 would know better than to mess with the car when their mom told them not too!

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JoseyJo 09:24 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Gradually, they need to be told the truth...gently. I had a mom of 4 that was still redirecting her almost 5 year old. HE WASN'T THAT STUPID...hence the constant temper tantrums. He'd never learned the concept of "NO means NO!"
Yes! I have a 5 yo in my care who is just like this. DCM treats DCB like an 18 mo so he acts like one. DCD treats DCB like a 5 yo so he acts like a 5 yo when dad is around.
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Angelsj 09:33 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I'm going to go with the middle here. The idea of doing some preplanning with dcb is not a bad one. It may make it easier on everyone. But, the problem really isn't that he can't get dressed with assistance. The problem is HE DOESN'T WANT TO. You can respect children as people without coddling them. They do have to know that there is not always a choice.

My ECE class recently had us read an article promoting democracy in the classroom. I am a family childcare provider (like OP). This is NOT a democracy. It is a benevolent dictatorship. I respect the children's individual personalities and feelings, and I'll pick my battles, but I am THE leader.

As for the liability of the 4 year old. She is the child's mother. There is no "liability". She needs to take charge of both her children. If the car is parked 10 feet away, 4 year old is buckled in her car seat, and she stays outside the house, I don't see a safety issue.
I would balance in the middle here as well. I don't have a problem with explaining to this kid how things are going to go. Lay it out and practice it. Not sure we need a teddy bear, but I do think he needs a clear picture what is going to happen and what is NOT going to happen.

I do think you need to be the one to do it, and I do agree with making mom aware that she is causing these issues and it needs to stop. She is being disrespectful all the way around.
I am not sure I agree that a two year old should have all this down pat, though. He is confused. Sometimes he gets to act like a heathen. Sometimes he doesn't. He is checking things out. He just needs things explained about how things are going to be in YOUR house. Then enforce it. Clearly.

I do agree with nannyde on the older one. Call her out in front of her mom and make it clear that is unacceptable. She does not get to accuse you of hurting her brother, and if it happens again, they will need new care.
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Heidi 10:49 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Sheesh, and to think someone at 49 would know better than to mess with the car when their mom told them not too!
he he....4! I meant 4!
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daycarediva 10:51 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
As I am working on my ECE degree, I am actually feeling more and more strongly that there is a certain amount of hogwash involved.

They went from teaching warm, respectful interactions to using constant redirection (I call that smoke-and-mirrors), giving children too many choices, and avoiding the word "NO" at all costs. Do I ever redirect a child? Sure. A crawling infant..."Play with toys" ( Offer toys vs. my Christmas Tree). When we were little, we got slapped on the hands a couple times, and we kept our fingers off the Christmas tree. That's not really necessary.

But, once they are 2ish, though, I think it's kind of dishonest to constantly redirect. As a matter of fact, I'd say it's not even developmentally appropriate anymore. Gradually, they need to be told the truth...gently. I had a mom of 4 that was still redirecting her almost 5 year old. HE WASN'T THAT STUPID...hence the constant temper tantrums. He'd never learned the concept of "NO means NO!"
I could not have said it better myself! I a going for my bachelors and I am already sick of professors with a degree, with ZERO kids of their own, with ZERO classroom/hands on experience TELLING ME how a 3yo cannot understand multi step directions or UNDERSTAND the behavioral expectations at home vs daycare (or church vs playground). Then I have a bunch of geniuses because my kids tell ME multistep directions and tell each other the rules. They also get told NO as often as necessary.
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cheerfuldom 10:52 AM 12-09-2013
I keep it simple. use the cold weather in your favor. get the kids ready as best you can and walk them out your front door and do not let mom enter the house leave the whole family outside and close your door on them. she either gets it together to get them in the car and gone or they all freeze in the front yard while mom plays "whos the boss?" with her preschoolers. trust me, the colder it gets, the better the lesson if they really get out of hand, I would dress both kids and walk them out to the car, put them in the seats (mom can do one, you do one) and again, do not allow mom in your house or even to your door until she can handle the kids alone. I would rather do the extra work of walking them out then let mom drag on the fight for 20 minutes at the end of the day.
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Heidi 11:22 AM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
I keep it simple. use the cold weather in your favor. get the kids ready as best you can and walk them out your front door and do not let mom enter the house leave the whole family outside and close your door on them. she either gets it together to get them in the car and gone or they all freeze in the front yard while mom plays "whos the boss?" with her preschoolers. trust me, the colder it gets, the better the lesson if they really get out of hand, I would dress both kids and walk them out to the car, put them in the seats (mom can do one, you do one) and again, do not allow mom in your house or even to your door until she can handle the kids alone. I would rather do the extra work of walking them out then let mom drag on the fight for 20 minutes at the end of the day.



The 4 kids from that family I had a couple years ago (and eventually termed...the 5 year old above included) would run around like crazy animals the minute mom showed up...inside or out. I learned really quick that it was better if I got them ready, then we'd sing a few songs or do finger-plays. Then I'd take 2/4 firmly by the hand and walk them to the car. I'd pin one between my legs, put the other in the seat, buckle him in, go around the car, buckle number two in. Meantime, she's chasing the older two around the yard, saying "get in the car, get in the car", while they ran off in different directions, laughing hysterically. Sometimes one would get in the car, grab things, "drive", etc. She'd eventually drive away with FOUR children screaming at the top of their lungs. Complete Choas. I told my dh that I'd probably take up smoking, just so I could pull over at the side of the road halfway home for a cigarette.

It was pretty awful, and I know they've been through 2 daycares since mine. The woman who has them now only has the younger twins (now 3), and she's my back-up mailperson. Luckily for former dcm, this woman is a saint and only has the 2 kids.

Oh...and I agree with the using the cold weather to your favor. Kind of what I was suggesting, too, about picking your battles. It's definitely a natural consequence to freeze your a** off. lol
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misslori50 12:06 PM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
the problem is that the role playing and teaching the child about transitions isn't the problem. He's two. I don't know how two he is but by two he should completely understand how to get ready, clean up, and follow directions from the adult. I have infants under one who can do this. He's way way way too old to need an education about transitioning.

I could be wrong but my guess is that the real escalator here is the fact that this family has two children with two slots in the day care. The provider doesn't want to upset the parent because she doesn't want to loose the income of two kids.

Everyone knows this. The mom knows it. The four year old knows it. The two year old knows it. They all know it because they see the provider change her behavior during this time to accommodate and make it look like all is well.

That's bad for everyone. The mom, four year old, and two year old need to get with the program and know that while on the providers property they all need to behave.

The four year old needs to mind her own beeswax and quit telling the adult what to do. She doesn't get to get by with interjecting herself and her opinion into this. She needs to follow directions and sit quietly until it's time for her to go outside.

The mom needs to respect that she is on the soil of another adult who does not like witnessing much less hosting her two year old behaving like a little animal. She needs to have respect for the adult. She needs to get ugly with that kid and get him to knock it off. If they want to play like that at home that's between them and jesus. If they are out in public they need to behave. The provider is off the clock the second the mom hits the property. The mom needs to get her kids out the door and get them out of the driveway asap.

Since these kids are the last out the door the provider needs to get the older one out... Shut the door... Go super strict with the two year old and lay the law down. Hand walk him to mom outside and hand his hand into her hand. Let the mom know that under no circumstances is she to let go of him until she has him buckled in the seat. He is not to step away from the car. If she allows him to walk away from the car then she will no longer be allowed the privledge of picking up in the driveway. He will have to be taken to the street. Once his feet are off of the provider property she is done done done. If the mom allows him to go back onto the property then she is liable for anything that happens like she would be if he went to raise hell on anyone elses property.

This kid will enjoy the play acting and it may be interesting enough to be entertained with it for a few days but because transitions are not the problem it will be a mere distraction. He wants to start home behavior as soon as he can. He wants to start the change in provider behavior as soon as he can. He wants mom on site so he can act like an animal. He understands exactly what the provider wants as she is doing like things with him all day. He is just saying no to it. That's the problem.. Not him understanding.

I'm not opposed to the technique of play acting. It will be an activity. You can color it... Play doh it... Sing it... Exercise it... Same difference.

love it
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providerandmomof4 03:59 PM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
The problem is that the role playing and teaching the child about transitions isn't the problem. He's two. I don't know how two he is but by two he should COMPLETELY understand how to get ready, clean up, and follow directions from the adult. I have infants under one who can do this. He's WAY WAY WAY too old to need an education about transitioning.

I could be wrong but my guess is that the real escalator here is the fact that this family has two children with two slots in the day care. The provider doesn't want to upset the parent because she doesn't want to loose the income of two kids.

EVERYONE knows this. The Mom knows it. The four year old knows it. The two year old knows it. They ALL know it because they see the provider change her behavior during this time to accommodate and make it look like all is well.

That's bad for everyone. The Mom, four year old, and two year old need to get with the program and know that while on the providers property they ALL need to BEHAVE.

The four year old needs to mind her own beeswax and quit telling the adult what to do. She doesn't get to get by with interjecting herself and her opinion into this. She needs to follow directions and sit quietly until it's time for her to go outside.

The Mom needs to respect that she is on the soil of another adult who does not like witnessing much less hosting her two year old behaving like a little animal. She needs to have RESPECT for the adult. She needs to get ugly with that kid and get him to KNOCK IT OFF. If they want to play like that at home that's between them and Jesus. If they are out in public they need to behave. The provider is off the clock the second the mom hits the property. The Mom needs to get her kids out the door and get them OUT of the driveway asap.

Since these kids are the last out the door the provider needs to get the older one out... shut the door... go SUPER strict with the two year old and lay the law down. Hand walk him to Mom outside and hand his hand into her hand. Let the Mom know that under NO circumstances is she to let go of him until she has him BUCKLED in the seat. He is not to step away from the car. If she allows him to walk away from the car then she will no longer be allowed the privledge of picking up in the driveway. He will have to be taken to the street. Once his feet are OFF of the provider property she is DONE DONE DONE. If the Mom allows him to go back onto the property then she is liable for anything that happens like she would be if he went to raise hell on anyone elses property.

This kid will enjoy the play acting and it may be interesting enough to be entertained with it for a few days but because transitions are not the problem it will be a mere distraction. He wants to start home behavior as soon as he can. He wants to start the change in provider behavior as soon as he can. He wants mom on site so he can act like an animal. He understands exactly what the provider wants as she is doing like things with him all day. He is just saying no to it. That's the problem.. not him understanding.

I'm not opposed to the technique of play acting. It will be an activity. You can color it... play doh it... sing it... exercise it... same difference.
Nannyde hit the nail on the head here. We transition all day long and although sometimes he struggles more than others, he know that he will eventually have to do what I want him (and all the other 2 yr olds) to do. They all know that we pick up after every activity. They all know we put shoes and coats on before playing outside. No issues. But when it's time for mom to come......complete transition in his behavior. He knows that I will not make him in front of dcm and exactly the reasons why nannyde afore mentioned! No more. We will do pick ups at the door. I always write a daily report and I guess if dcm needs to talk with me about anything she can call me.
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Heidi 04:01 PM 12-09-2013
Originally Posted by providerandmomof4:
Nannyde hit the nail on the head here. We transition all day long and although sometimes he struggles more than others, he know that he will eventually have to do what I want him (and all the other 2 yr olds) to do. They all know that we pick up after every activity. They all know we put shoes and coats on before playing outside. No issues. But when it's time for mom to come......complete transition in his behavior. He knows that I will not make him in front of dcm and exactly the reasons why nannyde afore mentioned! No more. We will do pick ups at the door. I always write a daily report and I guess if dcm needs to talk with me about anything she can call me.

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GKJNIGMN 02:04 PM 12-10-2013
I cannot stress enough to listen to Nannyde's advice. I read her advised regarding this subject and was skeptical but tried it consistently with one who's mother was having to chase her through my house and baby and bribe her and it was still hit and miss getting her out sometimes taking 20 minutes or more.

After following the advice, getting the child ready myself, no longer having the mother come into the house.....I no longer struggle with this child regarding this issue or very rarely. Once in a while she still refuses to get ready and I simply do it for her and then have her sit by herself until her mom comes.

Keep in mind, the parent will still struggle. Once the mom tries to get her into the car it is chaos. She will run away, kick, scream, demand to wander through my yard and pick flowers or get leaves or whatever tactic she can but honestly she is out of my house and I can move on with my day. Her mother just can't take control but that isn't my struggle it's hers.
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JoseyJo 02:34 PM 12-10-2013
I just started this with 2 of my kiddos the end of last week. In one case dcm was very on board and now p/u is a dream!

In the other case is my problem family/cousin of my husband where dcm/dcgma are NEVER on board. Today dcb's gma came at pu (he is 5 by the way) and I had him completely dressed sitting at the table by the door with stickers and a piece of paper. Very clear instructions that he was to get up, get his bag, and walk out the door w/ gma. No procrastinating, no leaving the door area.

When gma walks he procrastinates by having to put all the stickers on the paper (instead of taking them with him as I told him), then taking items out of his bag to show gma, asking questions he already knows the answer to, etc. Gma procrastinates too by deciding he needs to get his wet gloves and hat out of the bag and put them on, needs to get out the tablet dcm sent for him to use at her house now and hand it to him instead of waiting until they get to the car, and to look at his art paper and comment on it to him about how smart he is - ALL things done just as well in the car or at home.

I have tried to give the bag straight to gma but she hands it to him even though I have asked her not to. I could just not send anything home w/ her but I would still have to send home the gloves/hat.

The only idea I could come up with for tomorrow was to have him sit with no paper, no stickers, and to tie the bag shut so he cant get in it, or to have him sit with hat and gloves and coat on until gma arrives.

Ideas?
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Leanna 03:05 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
Maybe I am very very jaded, but this post made me laugh out loud! To me this sounds like either a CDA student right out of school... I can't imagine this provider has ever dealt with a child like the one described by the OP.
Choosing to use developmentally appropriate practices does not and should not mark one as "inexperienced." I don't think this suggestion is at all laughable...in fact, this, along with some of the things Heidi suggested (limited choices, a calm table activity before pick-up, having mom text when she is five minutes away) are all things I would suggest/have done/have had success with.

The suggestion of forcing the boy to go through a fake transition multiple times a day complete with clean-up, dressing, and sitting still is far from appropriate. There is no learning involved in this. Oh sure, the boy will comply after a while - but out of frustration, exhaustion, and boredom - NOT because he learned anything.
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Heidi 03:09 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
I just started this with 2 of my kiddos the end of last week. In one case dcm was very on board and now p/u is a dream!

In the other case is my problem family/cousin of my husband where dcm/dcgma are NEVER on board. Today dcb's gma came at pu (he is 5 by the way) and I had him completely dressed sitting at the table by the door with stickers and a piece of paper. Very clear instructions that he was to get up, get his bag, and walk out the door w/ gma. No procrastinating, no leaving the door area.

When gma walks he procrastinates by having to put all the stickers on the paper (instead of taking them with him as I told him), then taking items out of his bag to show gma, asking questions he already knows the answer to, etc. Gma procrastinates too by deciding he needs to get his wet gloves and hat out of the bag and put them on, needs to get out the tablet dcm sent for him to use at her house now and hand it to him instead of waiting until they get to the car, and to look at his art paper and comment on it to him about how smart he is - ALL things done just as well in the car or at home.

I have tried to give the bag straight to gma but she hands it to him even though I have asked her not to. I could just not send anything home w/ her but I would still have to send home the gloves/hat.

The only idea I could come up with for tomorrow was to have him sit with no paper, no stickers, and to tie the bag shut so he cant get in it, or to have him sit with hat and gloves and coat on until gma arrives.

Ideas?
Lock the front door, wait for Gma to knock, and hand him out.

HAVE A GREAT NIGHT, DCB AND GRANDMA!
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craftymissbeth 03:23 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Choosing to use developmentally appropriate practices does not and should not mark one as "inexperienced." I don't think this suggestion is at all laughable...in fact, this, along with some of the things Heidi suggested (limited choices, a calm table activity before pick-up, having mom text when she is five minutes away) are all things I would suggest/have done/have had success with.

The suggestion of forcing the boy to go through a fake transition multiple times a day complete with clean-up, dressing, and sitting still is far from appropriate. There is no learning involved in this. Oh sure, the boy will comply after a while - but out of frustration, exhaustion, and boredom - NOT because he learned anything.
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with a child doing something because that's what's expected of them? To be completely honest I don't care if a child complies out of frustration, boredom, or exhaustion... if it's a normal thing that is expected out of every capable child then they should just DO it.

There are too many people who believe the best way to get a child to comply is to make it fun. No, life is NOT always fun and there are things expected of everyone that we do not enjoy doing... yet we must do them. For a capable 2 year old one of those things is to get dressed and ready to go home from daycare.

I'm not talking being a harda** and that's certainly not how I am with my dck's, but I do expect great (reasonable) things from them and not a single one has ever let me down or made me think they are incapable if it's not fun.
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JoseyJo 03:42 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Lock the front door, wait for Gma to knock, and hand him out.

HAVE A GREAT NIGHT, DCB AND GRANDMA!
LOL! How come I never thought about locking the door? That's a great idea and totally solves the problem Tomorrow at 4:05 my door will be locked
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Heidi 03:47 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by JoseyJo:
LOL! How come I never thought about locking the door? That's a great idea and totally solves the problem Tomorrow at 4:05 my door will be locked


That gma is trying to be the rooster in YOUR henhouse. Now you're being the fox, I guess...
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providerandmomof4 03:54 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with a child doing something because that's what's expected of them? To be completely honest I don't care if a child complies out of frustration, boredom, or exhaustion... if it's a normal thing that is expected out of every capable child then they should just DO it.

There are too many people who believe the best way to get a child to comply is to make it fun. No, life is NOT always fun and there are things expected of everyone that we do not enjoy doing... yet we must do them. For a capable 2 year old one of those things is to get dressed and ready to go home from daycare.

I'm not talking being a harda** and that's certainly not how I am with my dck's, but I do expect great (reasonable) things from them and not a single one has ever let me down or made me think they are incapable if it's not fun.

I think that we are setting our children up for issues if everything is a game and fun, fun, fun. There comes a point when we shouldn't have to coerce, or bribe to get a child to do the simplest task. Like not throwing a colossal fit just because I want him to put his shoes and socks on. This is why he won't do it in the first place. He knows that at home he will get a sticker, tattoo, candy, just for doing what every other child is expected to do without reward. Then when mom walks in, she proceeds to tell him what a great job he is doing because he is not punching her in the face today. Which by the way he has done to her at pickup.
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Leanna 04:03 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by craftymissbeth:
Out of curiosity, what's wrong with a child doing something because that's what's expected of them? To be completely honest I don't care if a child complies out of frustration, boredom, or exhaustion... if it's a normal thing that is expected out of every capable child then they should just DO it.

There are too many people who believe the best way to get a child to comply is to make it fun. No, life is NOT always fun and there are things expected of everyone that we do not enjoy doing... yet we must do them. For a capable 2 year old one of those things is to get dressed and ready to go home from daycare.

I'm not talking being a harda** and that's certainly not how I am with my dck's, but I do expect great (reasonable) things from them and not a single one has ever let me down or made me think they are incapable if it's not fun.

Originally Posted by providerandmomof4:

I think that we are setting our children up for issues if everything is a game and fun, fun, fun. There comes a point when we shouldn't have to coerce, or bribe to get a child to do the simplest task. Like not throwing a colossal fit just because I want him to put his shoes and socks on. This is why he won't do it in the first place. He knows that at home he will get a sticker, tattoo, candy, just for doing what every other child is expected to do without reward. Then when mom walks in, she proceeds to tell him what a great job he is doing because he is not punching her in the face today. Which by the way he has done to her at pickup.
I do not believe in rewarding children for doing what they are supposed to do.

I do expect children to follow directions without coercion or bribing.

I do NOT however, believe in engaging in practices that serve no other purpose but to wear down a two-year-old into compliance.
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nannyde 04:21 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
Choosing to use developmentally appropriate practices does not and should not mark one as "inexperienced." I don't think this suggestion is at all laughable...in fact, this, along with some of the things Heidi suggested (limited choices, a calm table activity before pick-up, having mom text when she is five minutes away) are all things I would suggest/have done/have had success with.

The suggestion of forcing the boy to go through a fake transition multiple times a day complete with clean-up, dressing, and sitting still is far from appropriate. There is no learning involved in this. Oh sure, the boy will comply after a while - but out of frustration, exhaustion, and boredom - NOT because he learned anything.
Forcing him to dress a teddy bear is appropriate? Forcing him to sing a goodbye song is appropriate?

Developmentally appropriate is in the eye of the beholder. So is “forcing".

Practice makes perfect. Repetition enhances learning.

He needs the EXPERIENCE of having to do the right thing over and over. He needs to have the expectation of compliance be his minute to minute. In his care. . Right now... this is what he NEEDS. He is two. He is a toddler. He doesn't have to solve world peace or negotiate a hostile takeover. He has NOTHING in his daycare life more important than doing this ONE THING well.

Success with this one thing will net his caretaker happiness. It's worth the investment of time for a couple of weeks to get this done and down pat. If he gets it in a couple of days... coolio. If he protests then he needs more practice. Practice till he gets it right.
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nannyde 04:27 PM 12-10-2013
Originally Posted by Leanna:
I do not believe in rewarding children for doing what they are supposed to do.

I do expect children to follow directions without coercion or bribing.

I do NOT however, believe in engaging in practices that serve no other purpose but to wear down a two-year-old into compliance.
It's better to have the adult watch a two year old slap his mother across the face? That's the end game you know.

I care about this provider. I care about HER happiness. I care about what's developmentally appropriate for HER.

This two year olds development isn't more important than hers.
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Tags:parents - are clueless, parents - don't want kids, parents - dont know how
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