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daymommy 08:29 AM 10-11-2012
Hi guys just wondering if there are any mn providers that have opinions on the new proposed daycare regs....especially the proposed decreases in ratios. I was reading that you may only be allowed one child under 2 and then be required to keep a max of 4 including your own. With 2 of my own and one on the way this would only allow me to have 1 daycare child and they would need to be over 2. Just curious in the thoughts if others or more information anyone might have to share.

Right now I have 4mo, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5 and one on the way in Jan so this would drastically effect not only me and my business but my families as well as I would basically have to close up shop.

If your not in MN I'd be curious to know what your ratios and capacities are. I was looking at a few other states and it seems like a max of 6 seems to be a common number.

Thanks!
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Unregistered 08:40 AM 10-11-2012
Im in Illinois. I will copy and paste our rules from DCFS on this issue.

A caregiver alone may care for:

1) A mixed age group consisting of:

A) Up to 8 children under the age of 12, of which

B) Up to 5 children may be under the age of 5, of which

C) Up to 3 children may be under 24 months of age.


OR

2) A mixed age group consisting of:

A) Up to 8 children under the age of 12, of which

B) Up to 6 children may be under the age of 5, of which

C) Up to 2 children may be under 30 months of age.
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Willow 08:43 AM 10-11-2012
Do you have a link to any of the information you're asking about?

I hadn't heard of anything like that being proposed.


Are you only talking about Class A licenses? and if so would the option to bump up to another Class still remain an option?
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Rubysmom 08:49 AM 10-11-2012
I received the same questionaire you are referring to. I was okay with alot of the proposed changes, but I wrote a comment about the proposed lowering of the number of children. i stated that no one would go into home child care if there is no opportunity to make money. I also stated that it would cause more unlicensed and underqualified individuals to go into the field, and raise the price of daycare considerably.
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mema 09:07 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
Do you have a link to any of the information you're asking about?

I hadn't heard of anything like that being proposed.


Are you only talking about Class A licenses? and if so would the option to bump up to another Class still remain an option?
Here is a link to the mlfcca review. I think there is some more info on their website. I know our local association has been keeping us informed.

http://mlfcca.org/associations/11524/files/DHS.pdf
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Blackcat31 09:09 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
Do you have a link to any of the information you're asking about?

I hadn't heard of anything like that being proposed.


Are you only talking about Class A licenses? and if so would the option to bump up to another Class still remain an option?
Here is the panels review. Proposed cahnges are listed beginning on page 15 http://stmedia.startribune.com/docum...are+Homes1.pdf.

It is for ALL licensed child cares, essentially eliminating the Classes as we currently know them.

Originally Posted by Rubysmom:
I received the same questionaire you are referring to. I was okay with alot of the proposed changes, but I wrote a comment about the proposed lowering of the number of children. i stated that no one would go into home child care if there is no opportunity to make money. I also stated that it would cause more unlicensed and underqualified individuals to go into the field, and raise the price of daycare considerably.
THAT is what I truly believe is the ultimate goal. They do not want sahm's caring for children and want to make child care more part of our educational system like school is. They are striving to make the business, their business and take it out of the small business owners hands. Across the board regulations is the point. More control by the government and less control by us.

This is another reason we are seeing changes in things such as unionization of child cares, Parent Aware and curriculums for toddlers and infants as well.

Family child care as we currently know it will be non-existant IMPO, in the next 10-15 years and ALL providers will be college degreed and oprating as center would.

The proposed changes make sense as MN is one of the most lenient when it comes to ratios and staff as well as guidelines for infant care.

"The state Department of Human Services (DHS) has highlighted these excellent recommendations in a letter to legislators that asks lawmakers to work with the department to review safety standards and consider statutory changes. The state agency is appropriately treating the increase in licensed family day care deaths -- from three in 2003 to 11 in 2011 -- as a public health priority. Eighty-three children have died since 2002. Action is needed.

The panel's recommendation on ratios is understandable, given that Minnesota's are more lenient than those called for by a national child-advocacy organization. But it's not clear how many states have moved to adopt these "best practices" standards or whether there's data to support that such standards will reduce deaths at in-home day cares"


http://www.startribune.com/opinion/e...6.html?refer=y
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daymommy 09:50 AM 10-11-2012
I agree. That was the fist thing I thought when I read about the ratio proposals.

Does anyone know when these will be voted on, or when they would take effect if passed?
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MNMum 09:58 AM 10-11-2012
I'd be back to working as a RN in the hospital. In my area there is a huge need for care for the under 2 year crowd. That's basically all I have in care. Maybe it would push more mother's to stay home with their babies?? The infant sleep measures may stop providers from taking infant's anyway.
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Blackcat31 10:09 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by MNMum:
I'd be back to working as a RN in the hospital. In my area there is a huge need for care for the under 2 year crowd. That's basically all I have in care. Maybe it would push more mother's to stay home with their babies?? The infant sleep measures may stop providers from taking infant's anyway.
That is my plan of action. I stopped taking infants for a long time only to start again a year or so ago. If the sleep measures are passed soon, I will NOT be taking any children under 15 mos.

It may "force" more mothers to stay home with their babies but at what cost? They aren't able to secure their jobs so they would be out of work, perhaps on unemployment or worse yet, having to apply for state assistance which lends to an even bigger problem IMPO.

Ideally, it would be great to see families ABLE to stay home with their infants but I don't really see how that will be financially possible for a majority of people.

Moms staying home with their infants would also have a profound effect on the business we currently do as most of these moms would more than likely keep their other children home with them as well.

Lots of things to think about and process. I am trying to find out when and how soon they will be addressing and possibly implementing these changes.
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DCBlessings27 10:15 AM 10-11-2012
Good luck with the changes if they get passed. We're currently in the final stages of new regulations here in Kansas. Ours started as a proposed law that got passed and then went to some proposed regulations that were passed and will be completely enforced by February 2013.

The law was passed in 2010 here, and will be complete in February 2013. So, here at least, we've had some time for the changes. At first, some had recommended more strict regulations than were actually passed. We've been fortunate that they did do a hearing in which providers could have their say. However, it wasn't widely known about so many providers were upset after the regulations were passed. They didn't make it a big deal to inform providers until everything was set in stone.

The changes here have moved us from the bottom ranking to #3 according to a national watchdog site or something like that. I know that I recently read an article from MN that talked about the new regulations here.

If they do get it passed and it's as drastic as only allowing 4 kids, I'd look for many providers doing care illegally. We have a ton here providing care illegally, but the resources are so spread thin by all the new inspections here that they really don't have time to investigate illegal ones. Some formerly legal providers also chose just to do illegal care due to our new regulations.
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daymommy 11:04 AM 10-11-2012
I think a lot of providers would stop taking infants if they kept doing daycare at all. It seems like a lot of families would be stuck without care for their infants since it is already scarce to come by....around here at least. For me I won't have a choice since I will have an infant of my own. But even the option of legally unlicensed would allow me to care for one other family which would be more than one child (the max i would be able to have under proposed licensed ratios). I feel like this would force a lot of providers to go unlicensed and I'm sure that some will take their chances and continue care as an illegal unlicensed daycare as well....to me that just doesn't seem like if fixes anything. JMO.
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mema 11:54 AM 10-11-2012
I know for myself, I would probably not take under 2's at all. Not even sure if I would actually continue at all. I don't want to run as a "center". I am a home. The price is going to skyrocket and well, it is high enough I think. I have never raised my rates-in fact I decreased it a few years ago for some when I went to a flat rate regardless of age, but I know some of my families couldn't afford to pay more.

Some of the points I agree with. Especially the training hours. I mean right now we need like what 8? That isn't a lot, but at the same time, it is hard to get to trainings sometimes and they can be expensive.

The whole thing about requiring a physician's authorization for any position but back sleeping-I thought that was already law? When did that change to just parents being able to put it in writing? No way. I wouldn't take a baby if the physician signed off for back sleeping. It's hard enough when the baby rolls on their own.

I have a lot of questions, but really until anything is put in place as a bill to pass thru the session in January, all you can do it wait and put your voice out there.

Our local association is having some informational thing at the end of the month that I am going to try to attend.
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lucky 12:00 PM 10-11-2012
I personally think while mn licensing could use some improvement there are several factors they will need to consider. The biggest one currently being a shortage of quality infant care available. I started my last infant this week, but am planning on her being my last. I am uncomfortable with it given all the current changes and feel it's more of a liability than I chose to deal with. That being said I think if the changes go into effect as they are being proposed we are going to see children and especially infants being cared for in less than ideal conditions. Parents are still going to have to work, the sad fact of the matter is most families cannot afford to make ends meet on one income.

The providers who chose to go over capacity and not follow regulations will continue to do so, they may just go about it as unlicensed. The providers we are going to lose are the good ones who try to follow regulations and are not going to be able to afford to any longer.

While I think more frequent visits from licensing are a good idea, in my county at least my licensors are so overworked I don't know how this is practically feasible.

I also don't think having a helper be 16 should make a difference. In my understanding a 13 year old helper has to be with you and not left alone with the children anyway.

The 15-30 min checks on sleeping infants seems a bit extreme also. We wouldn't possibly expect this of the infants parents so why is it logical for childcare providers to follow this practice. I personally have an angel monitor and a video monitor for my own peace of mind.
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lil angels 01:19 PM 10-11-2012
I am finding myself freaking out about all the new rules. I guess it isn't the rules but the possible changes in numbers how could you afford to stay open. I could go get a $10 an hr job and make the same so why would it be worth the liability anymore. I don't know just venting I guess. Does anyone know what the legally unlicensed numbers are in mn?
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mema 01:32 PM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by lil angels:
I am finding myself freaking out about all the new rules. I guess it isn't the rules but the possible changes in numbers how could you afford to stay open. I could go get a $10 an hr job and make the same so why would it be worth the liability anymore. I don't know just venting I guess. Does anyone know what the legally unlicensed numbers are in mn?
1 Family unrelated.
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lovemyjob 12:44 PM 10-16-2012
Being a MN provider, and the bad rap from the newspaper articles regarding SIDS, I immediately read the paper published by the Mn DHS. The stats they give are not substantiated enought to prove anything regarding SIDS, other than it can/does occur on occassion. Rarely can they directly relate the cause to bad sleeping practices.

So I searched out SIDS research on my own. Did you all know that the biggest spike of SIDS deaths (and it is quite significant indeed) occurs on New Year's Eve? When parents are often intoxicated or not tending to their kids like they normally might. This seriously red flags the issue with me. SIDS deaths (as very sad as they may be) are going to occur....there is never a stat that discusses how many SIDS deaths have occured in family homes of infants vs daycares. That needs to be published to compare side-by-side if SIDS is on the rise as a nation or only in child care homes.

I would not prefer to take infants, as I think the sleep "environment" is simply extreme and does not take into account the child's emotional or physical needs to feel snuggled, have a "lovey", or something soft in their hands. However, infants are the way to keep a business successful..as the demand is extrememly high.

If these regulations pass...I am out of this business. Period.

I have been loooking into Parent Aware as well...it is not planned ever to be a required program, but highly encouraged. I am irrate at the way they are marketing it....very skewed stats put out there to the public. I have looked into all the classes and changes I would have to make...it is extrememly demanding. To partake in such "extra" work, I would have to raise my rates significantly....which would actually cause me to lose clients. The economy and market do not support this and i would be out of business. Again...more families would have to turn to unlicensed providers.

Regulations are tooo much! I pride myself on creating a family environment with my clients' children. They have "chores" they help do (set tables etc) that teaches responsibliity, multi-ages teaches acceptance and appreciation for different levels and skills, and lots of love. Institutionalized "child care" does not work, nor is it the way our society should be raising children. I could care less if a kid can write their ABC's by age 3. I want that child to feel loved and cared about....they will learn the ABCs eventually. Kids just need a chance to feel important and loved by someone....not have curriculum crammd down their throat.

Am I wrong?
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DCMom 01:12 PM 10-16-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
THAT is what I truly believe is the ultimate goal. They do not want sahm's caring for children and want to make child care more part of our educational system like school is. They are striving to make the business, their business and take it out of the small business owners hands. Across the board regulations is the point. More control by the government and less control by us.

This is another reason we are seeing changes in things such as unionization of child cares, Parent Aware and curriculums for toddlers and infants as well.

Family child care as we currently know it will be non-existant IMPO, in the next 10-15 years and ALL providers will be college degreed and oprating as center would.
Exactly. I have been saying this to my peers for a while now...my daughter originally was going to go into home daycare, but has chosen another career path because of the changes and what we feel is coming down the road.
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Blackcat31 01:21 PM 10-16-2012
Originally Posted by lovemyjob:
I have been loooking into Parent Aware as well...it is not planned ever to be a required program, but highly encouraged. I am irrate at the way they are marketing it....very skewed stats put out there to the public. I have looked into all the classes and changes I would have to make...it is extrememly demanding. To partake in such "extra" work, I would have to raise my rates significantly....which would actually cause me to lose clients. The economy and market do not support this and i would be out of business. Again...more families would have to turn to unlicensed providers.
If that is what they told you, then that may be mis-guided information because from what I have been told, it will be mandatory....eventually. The QRIS (Quality Ratings Improvment System) will be the generic framework for ALL states in how they manage, inspect and keep track of providers.

I was told this "Participation in the QRIS will be initially voluntary with appropriate funding and incentives provided through a variety of partnerships. After piloting, the QRIS will then be required for publicly funded programs, and eventually required for all licensed early learning and care programs."

I suppose you could opt to not recieve any funding through CCAP but then with no stars or any rating, what will happen to those care facilities? kwim? Parents aren't going to want to go to a child care that isn't rated any more than they want to go to an illegal unlicensed care facility.
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lovemyjob 02:51 PM 10-16-2012
I contacted the person through MNCR&R who is in charge of the Parent Aware program. When I asked directly if it will be mandatory, I was told it was never the intention to make it mandatory. But, like you said, you just wouldn't have a rating and would go out of business anyway.

The classes are all very inexpensive right now for Parent Aware...thus I am drawn to try to take what I can. I have no desire for a rating, as the expectations require me to function much more like a center...and that is not my philosophy. Training and education are always good....but the desired ways of operating should be up to me.

Any ideas of how we can counteract some of these regulation changes? Where do we start? Not sure who is on the MN DHS board of early childhood committee, but they may soon be getting an email from me. Child care is much needed....driving people out of the field isn't going to help anyone.
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Blackcat31 03:05 PM 10-16-2012
Originally Posted by lovemyjob:
I contacted the person through MNCR&R who is in charge of the Parent Aware program. When I asked directly if it will be mandatory, I was told it was never the intention to make it mandatory. But, like you said, you just wouldn't have a rating and would go out of business anyway.

The classes are all very inexpensive right now for Parent Aware...thus I am drawn to try to take what I can. I have no desire for a rating, as the expectations require me to function much more like a center...and that is not my philosophy. Training and education are always good....but the desired ways of operating should be up to me.

Any ideas of how we can counteract some of these regulation changes? Where do we start? Not sure who is on the MN DHS board of early childhood committee, but they may soon be getting an email from me. Child care is much needed....driving people out of the field isn't going to help anyone.
They aren't looking to drive anyone out of business... they are looking to place child care under the "education" umbrella that is governed and supervised by the same people our public schools are governed through.

They simply want their hand in early education too.

They want providers to run like mini-centers. Keeps people at DHS employed and needed...kwim? Just like the welfare system. If they were really trying to help people advance and get off the system, they wouldn't make it so easy to stay on it.

All the information I have came from the U.S Department of Health and Human Services/ Office of Planning, Research and Evaluation.

(You'd be surprised what you can find if you just google QRIS and simply start reading. I have spent countless hours reading everything and anything I can and am surprised, happy and disappointed about alot of it.) *sigh*

We could, as providers try to have a voice and be heard all the way to the MN DHS board of early childhood committee but MN is one of the last states to start implementing and piloting this system so I doubt our cries of protest would have any impact on something that is coming from a federal level. States are only in charge of implementing things in ways that meet their state budgets and such but I doubt any state has a choice about QRIS.
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nanglgrl 08:23 PM 10-16-2012
I hope that this program does not end up being as bad for you guys as you think it will. In Iowa we have a Quality Rating System based on stars. It is completely voluntary and as of now there is no plan to make it required here. That said, I'm a 2 star home and working on my 3rd right now. Like most of you I provide a quality learning in-home environment and so far I haven't had to make any changes. The 1st and 2nd star were easy but my 3rd is a little harder, 4th even harder still and then there's the 5th star that I'm pretty sure is about impossible for a home provider although I could be wrong. I've been a 2 star home for 6 years, I haven't tried to go to 3 stars because I've been busy with other things but also because in 6 years I've never had a parent ask me about QRS, my stars or what they mean. When I mention QRS during interviews I'm met with a blank stare. I don't think a lot of parents would be swayed by this even if the state "advertised" it more, good parents that come to home daycare's usually want a home-type environment that's cheaper than a center with a provider they have a good feeling about straight away. There are a lot of parents that don't want the governments involvement in choosing their daycare and the only way they could be swayed is if the government started paying for everyone's daycare costs.
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Blackcat31 06:36 AM 10-17-2012
Originally Posted by nanglgrl:
I hope that this program does not end up being as bad for you guys as you think it will. In Iowa we have a Quality Rating System based on stars. It is completely voluntary and as of now there is no plan to make it required here.
My belief is the QRIS stuff is voluntary (I think ? a couple of states are mandatory now) as of this time. HOWEVER, once the first round of the ratings and implementation "results" are back, is when the madatory part will probably come into play. As a pilot and/or voluntary program, I think they are just gathering their information right now to see if it really is making an impact or if it is worth it.

Originally Posted by nanglgrl:
That said, I'm a 2 star home and working on my 3rd right now. Like most of you I provide a quality learning in-home environmentand so far I haven't had to make any changes. The 1st and 2nd star were easy but my 3rd is a little harder, 4th even harder still and then there's the 5th star that I'm pretty sure is about impossible for a home provider although I could be wrong.
This is one area where states differ as some are 4 stars max. and others are 5 star max. We have no barriers that stop family child care providers from reaching the max. amount of stars provided they meet the criteria requirements. The requirements to meet the minimum standards are different here for centers and family child care.

Originally Posted by nanglgrl:
I've been a 2 star home for 6 years, I haven't tried to go to 3 stars because I've been busy with other things but also because in 6 years I've never had a parent ask me about QRS, my stars or what they mean. When I mention QRS during interviews I'm met with a blank stare. I don't think a lot of parents would be swayed by this even if the state "advertised" it more, good parents that come to home daycare's usually want a home-type environment that's cheaper than a center with a provider they have a good feeling about straight away.
This is part of why I am not so sure and have remained a bit undecided as I am hearing that this is such a great tool for parents and how it is going to be revolutionary in educating parents in how to "shop" for child care that meets their needs/wants. I have not yet, heard one parent say that they have seen or even heard of the program as of yet.

Like other programs with good intent, the concept is a nice one for parents but so far the actually benefits for parents haven't been clearly outlined for me and besides stating that it will educate parents, I haven't seen any examples yet as far as "how" this will happen.

Originally Posted by nanglgrl:
There are a lot of parents that don't want the governments involvement in choosing their daycare and the only way they could be swayed is if the government started paying for everyone's daycare costs.
My take isn't that the government will be involved in choosing a provider FOR the parent or swaying them to choose one over the other, my understanding is that the program is meant so that parents will easily be able to sort through all the different programs and no longer have to weed through ALL of them to find the one they want.

I take it as a way to sort through which provider offers what and who doesn't so the parent (and provider) don't waste time enrolling, only to find out that the program is structured and routine when they were only looking for someone to park their kid in front of the TV all day and charge a cheap rate....kwim?

That is where I am having a hard time. It seems to me that they are saying that the programs that only earn one or two stars seem to be labled as "not as good" or somehow lower quality compared to the ones who have the higher amount stars.

That, to me, isn't fair.

It seems like in order to be considered as quality program a provider would HAVE to strive for the highest amount of stars and earning the highest amount of stars means doing things EXACTLY the way the government says to do it. kwim?

"Darned if you do and darned if you don't."
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DaycareMomma 07:44 AM 10-17-2012
Is there a website we can go to to see all the proposed changes?
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Blackcat31 07:49 AM 10-17-2012
Originally Posted by DaycareMomma:
Is there a website we can go to to see all the proposed changes?
In regards to QRIS for all states or the recommended changes MN is talking about based on the results of the MN child review panel?
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DaycareMomma 07:55 AM 10-17-2012
Recommended changes.
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Blackcat31 08:09 AM 10-17-2012
Originally Posted by DaycareMomma:
Recommended changes.
http://mlfcca.org/associations/11524...mes%202012.pdf

The entire thing talks about the recommended changes but the summarized list begins on page 15.

If you are looking for info about Parent Aware, there are several links depending on what info you are looking for and if you are looking for framework and basic intentions of QRIS, then I would google it and start reading. I have read TONS of links and feel like I have only just begun to scratch the surface.
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DaycareMomma 08:21 AM 10-17-2012
Thanks BlackCat!

I've went to a meeting about the ParentAware. A friend of mine participated and had them come in and watch her during the day. I'm not sure where I stand on it yet.
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