There have been posts about centers not usually terminating children, when lots of home providers say they would term.
Does it seem that centers do not refer families for help with issues, when home providers do? Or terminate children if families will not seek help? And if so, why are centers preferred by the majority of families?

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Centers offer very long hours for a flat rate. They do not close except for major holidays. They allow parents to hang out in the room as much as they like. They do not term until a harmed child's parent threatens to term. The person who decides whether or not to term is not the one caring for the kid. The staff turnover is huge. Each slot turns over an average of four times a year. Multiple adults care for each kid every day and most have other adults in the room. The staff in a center are not charged with neglect if a child harms another child unless it is egregious and easily proven that the staff assistant intentionally set out to allow it. A home provider is charged and accountable if she doesn't prevent it... even with biting.
When multiple people are responsible for a group each members individual accountability diminishes. A home provider is soley responsible for everything.

Parents like centers mostly because they believe they are a school and they believe their child's chances of survival from injury or death is lessened because safety in numbers. This is statistically correct as death and serious bodily harm that is intentional is very rare in.centers. It is rare in home care but much more rare in centers.

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I agree with Nan, but I also think that parents seem to think that centers somehow follow rules better, or that there are "eyes" on all the employees preventing abuse and such. In my knowledge, that prevents nothing because they max out each staff member. I also think that parents think if they are paying more, they get more for their money. I don't agree with that either. I think smaller numbers are always better. Parents don't realize it, but home providers really come to know and love the children, however turnover at centers is so high I can't see how that happens.

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I think they get a sense of "workforce" when they're at an establishment vs a home? Like this is their job and they take it seriously unlike us "babysitters" who stay home and play all day. They probably feel it's more school like and some people just think more people equals more care. But like others pointed out, my experience is they just care about making money and don't term a child unless they have to and can easily replace them.

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I think a lot of parents see centers as the professionals, and us as lazy moms who don't want a "real job" and want to sit home and watch TV all day. They assume that since the centers have a storefront on a busy highway, they must be legit. I have had many parents surprised when they call me and find out that I am inspected, have rules that I must follow, serve healthy meals, and actually have parenting experience and child development knowledge. They really do see us as no different than the 14-year old down the street who watches the kids while they go out for dinner...they think we have the same qualifications and that we're happy to accept whatever they're willing to pay us, since we just do this for "spending money", not to make a living or anything.

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Centers are open more hours than home providers . Also we have children in rooms based on age. Some people prefer that their child is in a room with 7 other 2 year olds, as opposed to 7 other children of various ages. Also siblings are usually not together, which helps some families, so the kids aren't arguing all day at daycare . There is always someone watching the workers at daycare. We are also very strict with rules from the state and licensing . Centers also go out of their way to adapt to special diets , most home daycare a don't have the staff or means to do that. I would guess that it depends on what you value, small intimate care or a large group with lots of classes . There is enough of both to go around '

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As for terming, centers have the staffing to tolerate more disruptive and problem children. Home providers generally just can't tolerate as much, because one problem child can disrupt the whole group which isn't fair to the other kids and too much work/stress for the home provider. The typical home provider wouldn't have any help dealing with a problem child whereas in a center no one staff member would have to deal with the child full time.

Centers do encourage assessments of children who have various issues and they have those resources readily available. Assessors come to the center for all sorts of issues, whether they be social, physical, intellectual, behavioral, etc.

I am a firm supporter of both centers and home care. I own a decent sized center in my city but I regularly refer friends and potential customers to home providers when it seems like it would be a better fit (or when it is better for them financially). In my experience, the larger and franchise type centers are so much nicer and more reliable in my area, I would send my children there in a heartbeat. Some of the smaller locally owned centers have to be too tight with money and cut back too much, at the children's loss. However, in my area you have to be very careful with home providers as well because many many many of them are just wanting some money while they stay at home and don't see it as a career like those of you on here.

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As a parent I use centers for a variety of reasons. Staffed year round except for the major holidays. More flexibily time wise when it comes drop offs and pick ups, I find in my area the physical facilities are nicer and larger. A wider variety of activities offered in the centers..like sports classes, musical lessons, field trips. My personal feeling is that centers are safer as there are multiple staff rather than just being in a home center with one or two people all the time. I also prefer centers that have web access cameras so I can see what my child is doing during the day.

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In my area they don't really seem to, though I've noticed it seems more for financial reasons. Centers are usually much more expensive and salaries here are somewhat stagnant.

That said, I believe that not every care situation is right for every child. Some kids do better in a day home, others do better with a nanny, and others thrive in centers. IMO, the biggest disservice we do to kids is keeping them in care (regardless of the modality) even though we realize it's not the best place for them.

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Maybe I am unfairly biased. There have been quite a few scandals recently in local well known/reputable centers. Sexual abuse, physical abuse and ratio issues severe enough that the state just shut one down (and they NEVER do that)....

That being said.... most of the clients I get chose me over a center (for preschool) based on the understanding of the child/teacher relationship and how important that is for early education vs the convenience of a center with multiple staff members. What I mean is, they are hiring/interviewing and choosing ME vs a building.

I am a stone's throw from my BA in ECE and then on to club Med! My home has dedicated space and is run like a classroom, and I do assessments and work with parents to raise some pretty awesome people, so it's worth it to my clients. I don't have cameras because the state would then have access to them 24/7 and it's my home....so ya. They also KNOW I would never harm their child and I do end up becoming ridiculously attached to 99% of them. Those I don't mesh with, I have the ability to term/replace. I believe in that relationship. It's IMPORTANT!

I also know a few center workers personally. Barely a HS diploma, and I wouldn't leave a dog in their care. One of them had her own children removed by DCFS. We walk by a center nearly every day on our walks and the staff is lined up against the fence while the kids play. Doesn't matter WHAT the kids are doing, (screaming/hurt, unsafe behavior, etc) the staff is socializing and ignoring those kids.

Yup, some bias there. I realize not all centers and center staff are that way

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I am quite biased myself, stemming from over 12 years of experience working at various "high end" centers. I can say with certainty that there is no way I would send a young child to one of these places- a preschooler, maybe, but the older the better. It seems that the parents pay the most for infant/toddler slots, yet they are "taught" by the least educated and lowest paid employees- doesn't add up. I was teaching kindergarten when I became pregnant with ds- there was no way in h*ll I was going to put my child in a room with some of the women that were working in the infant rooms. I agree that the larger centers appeal to the parents, but most have far too many children in a room for their own good. I used to teach Pre-k in a class of 20 with 2 teachers (legal). Can you imagine the chaos?! Their solution...set up small groups and divide time. So what happens? One child is placed In a quality small group with most likely a caring, dedicated, and likely an experienced educator. Another child is placed in a group with anyone they could pull off the street (not literally), a person that really doesn't care much about the job and will quit in a week- and guess what?! Both parents are paying the same amount.

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I've worked in both and could argue pros and cons for both sides. It really boils down to personal preference. Personally, when I worked in centers my kids were in a home daycare run by a family friend. I can raise "6 of one/ half dozen of the other" arguments for several pages if I wanted to. As for staffing I can bring anecdotes for good/ bad examples of both: I've worked at a center that hired a stripper for an aide, and I've taught CPR to a home daycare provider who considered changing from cartoon network to nick Jr a different activity.

As for the term issue, I do have more flexibility than a center. Running a home daycare by nature has a healthy bit of ego built in: This is MY program, MY house, My rules, and DCPs are here to use MY service. If a parent doesn't like that- they can go bye bye. I don't have an owner/director looking at the bottom line. It is my decision when a family isn't worth the $.

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i think A LOT of parents put a lot of stock in the licensing measures (even though licensed home daycares follow the same regulations....) and the idea that their child is safer in a larger group of staff. What they usually fail to investigate is what the licensing does and does not guarantee them. It is very minimal in my state.....a background check, a TB test, very minimal classes (like 6 or 10 hours a year if that) and nothing more required by most centers other than a HS diploma. They can go to licensed and un- licensed home care and find way more qualified providers assuming they do their homework and look for someone that is established with a good reputation. I personally would not send my kids to about 80% of the daycares and preschools in my town. Many of them have such high staff turnover that they have constant running help wanted ads in the newspapers.....literally every week. I know one person that works at a center that had her kids taken from her and I would never allow her to babysit my kids. I know several others that worked at centers that have horrific stories of staff shifting around to cover ratios when parents are present. A friend of mine regularly had over 20 young preschoolers alone in a class at a local daycare center. She opened her home daycare and has a half dozen or less kids and gets paid more now than she would have at the center. anyway, all that to say, is that many centers are highly over rated. Some parents think they get more just because they pay more but generally, they get a lot less.

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As far as why centers often don't term when a child has problem behaviors... We've seen a few teachers (in centers) on here say that they would love to term someone because of their behavior but their director won't term. The director either doesn't get it, needs the income coming in, wants to please parents or whatever. But, I do think that happens quite a lot. Obviously, in home daycare, our income is directly impacted by how many children we have. So, if we know we can go without that income for a while, we might term, but I've known providers who've had to stick it out longer than they wanted just because they couldn't afford to term.

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Another "pro" to centers, which most of us would consider a huge "con", is the child is less attached to the caregiver.

When I started daycare many moons ago....the big thing was continuity of care. One-on-one car with the same provider, healthy attachments, etc. It was HUGE. Almost Everyone who looked for child care, wanted to have their child with the same caregiver birth to kindergarten. And that was how it was for a long time....then I started getting parents who needed their child in formal preschool at 4yo, then it was 3yo....now most parents around here have their child in a formal preschool at 2yo to 2.5yo. Three half days. Public preschool is offered at three, so the child needs to be "unattached" from the babysitter to be emotionally ready (in many parents eyes). I disagree, but...

The pro to a center at this age, is that parent can tell themselves that they are providing continuity of care, because the center is the same from birth to five...even if the child changes teachers every year or more. The reality is that the bond a child forms with the center employees is way different (psychologically speaking) than a one-on-one caregiver for years. Which is a positive with a few of my mommy working friends(much younger than me), who chose centers precisely so their child would not bond too much with someone other than mommy. Jealousy.

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There is also a huge difference in being the actual hands on provider and the staff person where as a difficult child is not the same issue for the two different situations.

A home provider imho, is much more invested in not only the child but the parents, the day to day activities and the business itself where a center worker or staff person has the hands on day to day contact but HER paycheck, livelihood and general day to day activities aren't so connected or invested in that child.

The directors don't always have the hands on contact with the child during day to day activities so often times, they are only aware of what a staff person has relayed to them. Saying a child has been rough and aggressive all day is not the same thing as trying to manage and control a child who has been rough and aggressive all day.

Many centers only require the director and one lead teacher to have the education/credentials required and the staff can get by with little or no education, training and/or experience other than CPR etc.

Two very different environments and as always, up to the parent to decide what's best for their child.

I don't believe one is better than the other in comparison but one is better than the other for each individual situation.
One of my own children loved attending a center verses a home daycare and my other child was the opposite.

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For us, every place is different. It's not so much a "center vs. home care" debate as it is individually debatable.

We just left a home provider over communication and supervision issues. The other home providers I have checked into in this area have had some serious deficiencies. BUT, so have some of the centers. Everyone gets them but I'm not leaving my child somewhere that has had sanitation violations or were over ratio.

To me, it doesn't matter if its a home daycare or a center, my main points need to be hit. They are: safety, communication and nutrition. (It doesn't have to be organic, just healthy) But we are additionally limited because of my tube fed DS.

So, we ended up settling on a family-run center. So far, so good.

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here is my experience with centers

they have longer hours, which means parents get to spend less time with their kids. Children that spend less time with parents=more problems connecting and behavioral issues.

They will deal with a naughty child, bouncing that child from teacher to teacher, then admin until something serious occurs. If you have a hard to place child, most centers will work with them and more than likely have more resources.

Often the center is based on 1 person's philosophies, not the employees/staff, so they don't care or are motivated to see it through.

The staff/children turn over is crazy high

The center my son attended allowed ill children past a common cold, so we were often sick too. but for whatever reason people didn't stop working they just kept coming and dropping off kid.

Ours did not offer any field trips to children under first grade. So my son was stuck in the brick and motor walls for everyday he was there.

Most centers do no close for vacations

I did not have siblings attending at that time, but I did know that they were able to give sibling discounts, some allowed sliding fee scales.

Centers have more wiggle room to offer discounts because they have 144 kids vs home daycare 4-14 kids.

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I've used in-home, center, and nanny for my kids (and now I'm a DCP). The center I used the most, but that's because it was attached to my work. It was a wonderful place. The facilities and hot food were paid for by my employer, so our tuition money went almost completely to staffing, so there was almost no turnover (four years after we left, they still have the same teachers) in part because they were paid extremely well. That's the kind of center I can get behind. But I know it's not the norm.

My kids have almost aged out of needing childcare, so there's no need for me to choose anything, but if I were to go back to working outside the home, I'd pick an in-home provider. Much more like family. It's unlikely I'd find a center like the one I had access to before.

And don't even get me started on nannies. I know there are great ones--just haven't met one yet.

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I've had experience with both centers and homes. In high school I worked at a center. Our first soon was in center for 3 years, and then two of our other children were in homes two different times.

I will say neither the center where I worked nor the one where ds attended had high turnover. I worked for 2 years at the one and we were in the other for 3 years and I only saw one staff change, because of a pregnancy. Where I worked some of the women weren't amazing, but I would trust them all to keep the kiddos safe. Obviously we loved the center where our kids attended as well. We were also happy with the dayhomes.

I'm getting ready to go back to work and we have one child that will need care, 3 yo. We will probably put her in a center, assuming we find one we are comfortable with.

Dayhomes all seem to want the kids picked up so early, and I just can't get off before 500.
She really thrives on lots of playmates and activity, and we think she would enjoy a bigger class size.
We like the variety of activities a center can offer.
We like that there are always other adults around, even if it is a false sense of safety

We had good experiences with the homes we used also, though.

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I am offended by your assessment of infant room teachers. I am one of the lead teachers in the infant room. All our lead teachers have degrees, have been at the center at least 5 years, and are very close with all infants. We are sad when one moves up to the next class, because we genuinely miss them. I am not saying all centers are like ours, but not all centers are like the one you describe either.

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I own and operate a small center. I DO terminate children that are not a good fit for my program. Violent children do not stay here. I do suggest early intervention when referrals are needed. If the parents seek help or not does not matter, aggressive children do not attend. I have seen on this forum a million times, from home providers, "don't suggest term please, I can't afford to term them, I need the income", so I don't see how centers can be labeled as "not terming because they need the money".

I can tell you why parents enrolled in my center. It's clean, cozy, and has a calm and structured environment. There is zero lead teacher turnover because the two lead teachers are the owners. We have a curriculum and a play based approach. We are multi age, and cater to each child's interests and personalities. We are below state ratios and have small group size. We have a male lead teacher and this is great for kids lacking positive male role models at home. We have a spotless record. We are inspected regularly. We have a convenient location, we have an amazing beautiful historic home as our facility. We also love not living where we work and our own children do too.

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Didn't mean to offend the good ones, my bad. I do wish there were good ones at the multiple places where I worked- but anytime a good one came around they were either made to feel like an outcast because the bad ones outnumbered the good ones and quit, or they were so underpaid that they wound up leaving. I'm guessing the conditions are great where you are, as it sounds like there is less turnover at your place. I apologize for offending you, I have worked with a lot of troubled ladies at centers.

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Sugar, you are definitely the exception to the common misconception parents have about centers.

It's not fair that you get lumped in with the big centers that seem to dictate the negative thought process some people have about centers.

You run a VERY unique program and one as a parent I would seek out if I lived near you.

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That's how it is in centers in our area, too. If they would maybe pay people what they are worth, we might not have this problem, at least to the extent we do. There are two centers in our town. One of them has very high turnover and is dirty, and the other one, despite their five-star rating, employs prisoners working on the Huber Law. Parents are so happy because they are taking their kids to a 5-star center, but they have no idea who their kids are spending their days with. What the?

The parents around here who prefer centers do so because there are no sick days at centers. In general, the cost of center care here runs just slightly lower than home child care.

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Centers are lower? They must have slammin ratios.

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NOT ONE WORD OF THIS APPLIES TO MY CENTER.

You could sprinkle in.a "some centers" or "generally" or "many centers" or a "not all centers are like this" in there somewhere.

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Great discussion. I was pondering the specific issue of what is done with children who clearly have behavioral issues, and whether there is a clear divide between how this is handled in a center vs home daycare. It could also apply to developmental issues, I suppose.
I started thinking about this after reading many posts about terminating for behavior problems, and it seemed to me that most home providers said they would terminate, while most center caregivers said their center would not terminate. Obviously not a scientific sampling !
In my home daycare, I have never terminated for behavior, but have made many referrals for testing, so that the children and families can get the help they need. Sometimes that means the child ends up leaving for an environment that offers specialized help, but more often they stay and receive special services at home, here, or at another site.
A few years back, I talked with one of my families about seeking help for their almost-3-year-old.
They did have him evaluated, but then got angry with me (possibly misplaced anger ?) and left my daycare. They enrolled him in a center/preschool and I figured that was for the best, because I assumed at that time that a center would have more resources/connections and that he would certainly get the help he needed. I think I figured the center would force the issue, actually, though I have learned since then, that any child care can only suggest evaluating, receiving help, etc. The parent totally has the right to refuse (although I believe I would be within my rights to terminate if I could not deal with the issues.)
So, this child ended up receiving NO help until he went to kindergarten, almost 3 years later. His center never even asked for an evaluation. On the first day of school, it reportedly took six people to get him in the building (several of my former kids went there, and parents remembered him) and he has since been diagnosed with several issues, including an eating disorder that I saw no sign of while he was here.
Anyway, all of that was stewing in my mind, and prompted the original question, above. (I am the unregistered OP, but not the other unregistered commenters.)

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Before I opened my home dc, I worked in 3 different centers in the span of 14 years. Let me start by saying that I worked for corporate centers, which I believe, most if not all, are different than private centers like Sugar Magnolia's.

In my experience, I have only seen one child get kicked out of these corporate centers. (there may have been more, but I honestly don't think so). This child thought he was a dinosaur and went around biting everyone, constantly, at the age of 1.5. His admittedly let him watch Jurrasic Park and mom would tell us other things, no wonder he was the way he was. That was the only time I have seen a center expel a child.

I have seen kids hit, kick, smack teachers and other children. One child (4 years old) constantly would run out of a room and of course the teacher who was responsible for 11 other children would get into trouble. I'm not saying that the child shouldn't be supervised, but with what was expected of the teachers, it was difficult for them to provide one on one care-the center didn't care. I have never seen a director give a referral to a family with a child that needed one, maybe for fear of losing the child or I just may not have heard of them doing so.

As a home provider, I do refer children if I think that they need to be evaluated, even if I think I will lose the child.


Centers here will not (usually) term children because:
They are struggling to enroll new children and don't want to lose any current families, including aggressive children.

A lot of times, like bc said, directors are not in the room so they don't know the full extent of the problems with the children. Staff is just expected to deal with it.

A lot of directors are forced to maintain a quota and won't term. ( A huge corporate center in my area just shut down due to low enrollment)


I'm not sure if parents prefer centers over home dc's around here. I hear a lot of pros and cons of both. I do know that centers rates are significantly higher than home dc's, but a lot of centers are threatened with being shut down due to low enrollment, like the one near me.

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I think that there is a huge difference between "corporate centers" vs "private centers". I would love to come to your center!

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Unfortunately, I have to disagree that there is ALWAYS someone watching the workers at daycare centers. I have worked in two while I was getting my teaching degree and I had very poor experiences with both (affluent area, fancy looking centers, camera systems in all rooms, etc.) in witnessing children not be treated well. Always means always. I would say...sometimes.

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This is how I was when I was a lead infant teacher. I loved all (well almost all) of the babies that I took care of! Most of the infant teachers also babysat outside of dc hours too and a lot of them became family friends.
But, I have also seen teachers who weren't like me or some of my co-workers, working with the infants too. I understand what Shell is saying to some degree, but I wouldn't say that about ALL centers or staff.

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I agree. I don't view you on the same playing field as big centers with multiple locations at all.

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Thank you, and BC too, for the kind words.

The paper on my wall says "licenced center" so I do get upset with sweeping generalizations. (yes, I'm the jerk who added that tag).

OP, you are asking a forum of home daycare providers. You are going to get mostly only their perspective here. I'm the only center Director here on a regular basis, that I know of.. There are others registered, but I rarely see them. There are several center employees, so I hope some will chime in.

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Shug I wasn't referring to a small family center that has the capacity of a large group home day care. I'm referring to centers with thirty plus kids.

What you offer is more akin to Iowa's Category C1 registration. We have a capacity of 19 kids with two workers and a helper. I know you have to abide by your states center rules but with the small capacity and being ran by your family it is more like a large family home child care some states offer in regards to turnover, holiday, who decides to term, hours set etc.

I don't want to feel obligated to use hedging words like some, generally, etc... I think the average reader here knows there are exceptions to generalizations. Giving me the all caps shout isn't something I deserve. I don't appreciate that one bit.

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Just adding that I love whoever tagged this thread.

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Okay, I retract my former statement, it is not a good discussion. For that matter I retract my question too since it was mostly lost early on.
I had not thought of this forum as only for home providers. Plus I did not intend to bring out a home vs center mentality. I am a family child care provider but I do not view centers antagonistically, any more than I view other home providers that way.
Taking my marbles and going home now

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I don't think anyone thinks you intended for the thread to go that way, it just naturally does on a forum that is mostly home providers and centers get brought up.

I didnt answer your question very well either, did I?

My answer to your original question would be: I have not noticed that centers do not refer out for issues. But I have not had a lot of experience with that.

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Regarding behavior problems and terming, I have a lot of years of experience as a family provider, and I have only had to term once for behavior-both the child's and the parents'. I do not term willy nilly.

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One other thing I have noticed is that many parents in my area do NOT want their children going on any field trips even if it is a walk to the park. Some have requested (to me and my provider friends) that their children do not even go in the backyard. They want to know exactly where their child is at all times and prefer it to be in the one playroom all day. They can find that service easier at a center because unfortunately, many local places dont take non-walkers outside at all and some have very minimal outside time for walkers and older. This is really sad to me and I would never provide that service. I am coming across more and more kids that do not run errands with parents or even use their own backyards

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Maybe this is why the center I work in is not what you all think of when you talk of centers. I work in a small privately owned center, Sugar Magnolia's description of her center is the type of center I work in. Small (30-35 kids max) in a house that is used strictly for daycare, but cozy and a warm inviting atmosphere. I have never worked in a corporate center, so I cannot comment on how they are and my comments are from my own experience at a small center.

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The corporate centers that I have worked in had approximately 60+ kids. In all three that I worked at, formal curriculum was forced upon us, even in the infant rooms! The activities for the infants and other rooms were supposedly created by "professionals in the chdv field, but most activities, especially for the infants were so out there and most of them were teacher lead or done. It was far from family like and the teachers and I used to complain that they were so concerned at doing parent pleasing things and "school" like things that we felt like it took away from the time with the kids. Most of us did try to bond and spend as much time with the kids as we could, but it was difficult with the number of kids in the room (our infant room could have up to 16 kids and was usually full and the ratio is 1:4, same with the toddler room that could have up to 20). In the last center that I worked at and actually the one before that (which just closed down), our director was always pressured to get the enrollment up and was often threatened her job if she didn't. It was sad. It seemed they just cared about money. And at the last center, we were NAEYC accredited, but as soon as they got accredited, it seemed like they didn't care as much because the had that stature and could advertise that they were accredited. And funny that when our regional boss would come, our director would freak out and all of a sudden, everything had to be up to par; when it should have been kept like that in the first place, it that was the kind of center they claimed to be.

Sorry, I am rambling on and on...lol I'm not saying that every corporate center is like this, but a majority are. The family like atmosphere is definitely lost. You are lucky to be working at a small center that is family like! My dream one day is to open up my own!

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Same thing here. I had one mom a few months ago ask if we play outside. I told her that yes weather permitting we play in the backyard daily. Mind you it is completely fenced in. She didn't want her 4 year old outside to play! I was mortified.

I have also noticed that parents don't take their children on errands anymore. Sometimes I can understand this. But staying home with a babysitter every weekend so mom can run to the supermarket? That's just silly. Or the parent who has to pick up late so she can run to the store and grab dinner. Here's an idea - get your child and take them with you! Being out in public is an excellent learning opportunity for littles.

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