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  #1  
Old 07-23-2016, 12:30 PM
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Question Smoking Policy and References

I've applied to an agency to be a home daycare provider for them. They have a policy that there can be no smoking, at any time (even outside daycare hours), anywhere on the property. The only smoker in the household is my elderly mother who we invited to live with us a year ago. She smokes on the front porch. Never in the house, and never in the backyard where the daycare kids play. There is even a separate entrance for the daycare (side of house) so that they would not have to walk through a cloud of smoke to access the daycare. My DH, who is militant anti-smoking, thinks that the agency's requirement (no smoking on property, at ANY time EVER is unreasonable. Do any providers here have a smoker in the home, and what do your clients/licensing require or accept?

Also, they want each of my references to fill out a sheet of questions about me. I'm really concerned that they (my references) will ditch me if presented with this homework assignment. They aren't friends or family, they are former employers and supervisors and really owe me nothing. They also each work long hours and have families at home to take care of at the end of the day and probably don't want anything added to their workload. I said to the agency person interviewing me, "Oh, I thought you would only be calling them." and she said that she would be doing that as well. Holy overkill much? Does this seem odd to anyone else?
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Old 07-24-2016, 06:57 AM
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I am not in ON but we have similar options to register with agencies here. I choose to remain legally unlicensed mostly because they really don't have anything to offer me other than the ability to take subsidy, which I don't want to do.

Are there different agencies you can register with? Maybe a different agency would have different rules in regards to that aspect.

I know here the agencies receive money for each family daycare they sign up so they are always looking for new daycares.
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Old 07-24-2016, 07:41 AM
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While I think the smoking rule is overreaching, I mean it is still your HOME. I am not sure you can get around it. I don't know much about licensing where you are, but if as PP suggested, another agency is available I guess check them out.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:40 PM
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That is overkill. I'm in Ontario and plan to be unlicensed when I start.
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Old 07-24-2016, 04:51 PM
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Most providers I know that live in Canada don't want to sign on with an agency. I think weird rules are one of the reasons.

Where are you located? (PM me if you dont want to post openly).

I belong to a private forum made up mostly of Canadian providers... I can ask if any of them know a way around or a clause in the smoking rule for your mom if it would help.
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Old 07-25-2016, 04:16 AM
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My family and I discussed it all weekend and I'm not going to work through that agency (it's Wee Watch, btw). It's just too intrusive. The smoking thing, the questionnaire for my references (4 references required), and physicals for everyone in the household (not just for me, and I would be happy to oblige). Sorry, but my family has the right to medical privacy, especially when they will have nothing to do with the daycare.

She also had a problem with my mom's stairlift which goes along a wide staircase. She thought that it might make the stairway too narrow and therefore unsafe. I will still be having the fire department come and do an inspection (I will pay fee if there is one) and I will see what they say. My mom only rarely uses the stairlift anyway so we could remove it (and store it in case DH or I need it later). There is also a back entrance (sliding glass doors) that clients could use but I don't want to make them walk all the way to the back on cold or rainy days.

I have a room that I may put a packnplay in for naps if one of the children needs to be away from the others. There is a treadmill in the room. She wants it removed. I can keep it unplugged and store the "key" (it won't work without it) in another room, but I really don't want to move it anywhere. It's big and freaking heavy. I'm not even sure WHERE I would move it to.

Oh, and I'm in the Quinte West area (near Belleville ON).
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Old 07-25-2016, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip View Post
My family and I discussed it all weekend and I'm not going to work through that agency (it's Wee Watch, btw). It's just too intrusive. The smoking thing, the questionnaire for my references (4 references required), and physicals for everyone in the household (not just for me, and I would be happy to oblige). Sorry, but my family has the right to medical privacy, especially when they will have nothing to do with the daycare.

She also had a problem with my mom's stairlift which goes along a wide staircase. She thought that it might make the stairway too narrow and therefore unsafe. I will still be having the fire department come and do an inspection (I will pay fee if there is one) and I will see what they say. My mom only rarely uses the stairlift anyway so we could remove it (and store it in case DH or I need it later). There is also a back entrance (sliding glass doors) that clients could use but I don't want to make them walk all the way to the back on cold or rainy days.

I have a room that I may put a packnplay in for naps if one of the children needs to be away from the others. There is a treadmill in the room. She wants it removed. I can keep it unplugged and store the "key" (it won't work without it) in another room, but I really don't want to move it anywhere. It's big and freaking heavy. I'm not even sure WHERE I would move it to.

Oh, and I'm in the Quinte West area (near Belleville ON).
Message me your contact info...

I found a provider from the other forum that lives near your area. She heads a local FB group and says she maybe able to get word out for you if you are looking for kids...she said she knows many areas close that are in need of good care programs. She also has info on another agency that apparently is much better than Wee Watch. She said they are the worst...

Anyways, if you want to message me your name/contact info I will connect you with her and hopefully she can help you out!
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:53 AM
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Pm sent and thanks for this!
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:11 AM
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Pm sent and thanks for this!
No problem! I just sent your info to her!

Hopefully she will be a great resource for you!
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Old 07-25-2016, 10:17 AM
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No problem! I just sent your info to her!

Hopefully she will be a great resource for you!
Thanks so much Blackcat!
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:13 PM
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While I think the smoking rule is overreaching, I mean it is still your HOME. I am not sure you can get around it. I don't know much about licensing where you are, but if as PP suggested, another agency is available I guess check them out.
My program is in my home but licensing prohibits smoking anywhere on the premises while children are present. So when my FIL visits he has to take a walk around the block or stand on the sidewalk in front of the neighbor's to smoke.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:20 PM
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My program is in my home but licensing prohibits smoking anywhere on the premises while children are present. So when my FIL visits he has to take a walk around the block or stand on the sidewalk in front of the neighbor's to smoke.
I understand the while the children are present part, but the OP says they say no smoking at any time, so even when kiddos are not there. I think that is over reaching.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:39 PM
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I understand the while the children are present part, but the OP says they say no smoking at any time, so even when kiddos are not there. I think that is over reaching.
MN laws say there is no smoking in the home. period.

I do not feel it's over reaching simply because no one forced any of us to go into this field. It was a choice by each and every one of us.

Like many other professions, there are simply things we must abide by. Being a CDL holder is a good example. The legal limit for someone with a CDL is much lower than a normal drive with a regular driver's license.
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Old 07-25-2016, 01:54 PM
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MN laws say there is no smoking in the home. period.

I do not feel it's over reaching simply because no one forced any of us to go into this field. It was a choice by each and every one of us.

Like many other professions, there are simply things we must abide by. Being a CDL holder is a good example. The legal limit for someone with a CDL is much lower than a normal drive with a regular driver's license.
IN the home, but what about outside where children do not play even when they are not there? I mean to say one can't smoke anyplace on their property is going to far. I also think that the lower legal limit for truck drivers in there PERSONAL vehicle is over reaching. I mean just because you have a job (of any kind) does not mean you should have to give up your rights to a personal life away from work. We don't smoke anymore, we both quit years ago, so I don't allow smoking in my house at all, largely due to DD's asthma. But that doesn't mean I would tell a visitor they couldn't smoke in my yard when no daycare kids were here.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:10 PM
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IN the home, but what about outside where children do not play even when they are not there? I mean to say one can't smoke anyplace on their property is going to far. I also think that the lower legal limit for truck drivers in there PERSONAL vehicle is over reaching. I mean just because you have a job (of any kind) does not mean you should have to give up your rights to a personal life away from work. We don't smoke anymore, we both quit years ago, so I don't allow smoking in my house at all, largely due to DD's asthma. But that doesn't mean I would tell a visitor they couldn't smoke in my yard when no daycare kids were here.
Pretty sure they can't get that picky when not everyone is trustworthy or honest. Not to mention the hundreds of different ways a simple rule and be interpreted. kwim?

What does "Where the kids don't play" mean?

It means something different for everyone so I am sure the rule simply had to be a general blanket rule...one size fits all.

As for the CDL rule not being fair in the personal vehicle...well my dad was a CDL holder his whole life and he took that "privilege" very seriously. If someone "pushed" the legal limit simply because they were in their personal vehicle...well that says a lot about their personal integrity and I wouldn't want someone on the road with a multi-ton vehicle that didn't take the privilege seriously.

With every privilege comes a responsibility.

My bff's dad is a pilot. He can not drink within 24-48 hours prior to flying.

There are many professions that have off-duty laws/rules or policies that employees must follow. Again, no one forced anyone to take those types of jobs but if you do, then you must abide by those laws.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:16 PM
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Pretty sure they can't get that picky when not everyone is trustworthy or honest. Not to mention the hundreds of different ways a simple rule and be interpreted. kwim?

What does "Where the kids don't play" mean?

It means something different for everyone so I am sure the rule simply had to be a general blanket rule...one size fits all.

As for the CDL rule not being fair in the personal vehicle...well my dad was a CDL holder his whole life and he took that "privilege" very seriously. If someone "pushed" the legal limit simply because they were in their personal vehicle...well that says a lot about their personal integrity and I wouldn't want someone on the road with a multi-ton vehicle that didn't take the privilege seriously.

With every privilege comes a responsibility.

My bff's dad is a pilot. He can not drink within 24-48 hours prior to flying.

There are many professions that have off-duty laws/rules or policies that employees must follow. Again, no one forced anyone to take those types of jobs but if you do, then you must abide by those laws.
I just don't think an employer should have that much control over you. I mean would we tell a doctor or nurse that they couldn't work if they had a health issue? What if they were over or under weight? Would we tell a teacher they couldn't teach if they took extra classes while teaching and failed one? Would we tell a police officer if they ever got a ticket they would be fired? Where does it end?
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:31 PM
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I just don't think an employer should have that much control over you. I mean would we tell a doctor or nurse that they couldn't work if they had a health issue? What if they were over or under weight? Would we tell a teacher they couldn't teach if they took extra classes while teaching and failed one? Would we tell a police officer if they ever got a ticket they would be fired? Where does it end?
How do any of those things effect the public?

The other rules have a direct impact on the public or the clients served.

If my Dr is overweight he can still provide medical attention.

If my pilot is hung over and/or possibly over the legal limit after a night of drinking, I am sure my flight would be a bit scary...

If my teacher failed a class, it would have no impact on the things she did pass and is teaching her students.

If a daycare provider allowed her weekend guests to smoke on daycare property, the children that attended the following week would be exposed to allergens and possibly second/third hand smoke as well as maybe having access to cigarette butts that were discarded.

MANY people have lost their jobs over choices they made on their personal time....

Where do we draw the line? By giving people choices.

You get to choose what profession you go into and with that choice comes guidelines, rules, rights and privileges.

If you don't agree with them, you still get a choice.
Abide by the rules, lobby to change the rules, don't go into that profession or even choose to go into that profession and disregard the rules.

No matter what choice you make, there are consequences.

It's kind of the way life works.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:34 PM
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At some point, it is to much big brother. A small group of people with to much power telling the rest of us what to do. How does a doctor who smokes tell a patient to quit? Way back when I used to smoke my doctor would smoke in his office with the door open where I could see, and told me to quit. Yeah okay! How does someone smoking outside in a yard when daycare kids are not there harm the children? It doesn't! How does a truck driver being at the regular legal limit in his own personal vehicle put anyone else at more harm than if you or I did it? It doesn't. Now DH and I don't smoke or drink anymore so it doesn't really affect us, but it is the principal of to much big brother that bothers me.
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Old 07-25-2016, 02:41 PM
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At some point, it is to much big brother. A small group of people with to much power telling the rest of us what to do. How does a doctor who smokes tell a patient to quit? Way back when I used to smoke my doctor would smoke in his office with the door open where I could see, and told me to quit. Yeah okay! How does someone smoking outside in a yard when daycare kids are not there harm the children? It doesn't! How does a truck driver being at the regular legal limit in his own personal vehicle put anyone else at more harm than if you or I did it? It doesn't. Now DH and I don't smoke or drink anymore so it doesn't really affect us, but it is the principal of to much big brother that bothers me.
really?

I suggest you do some research.

I am out.

I recognize, understand and accept that I have choices.

I CHOOSE not to complain about it and do one of two things;

Accept and live by the rules I am given or I lobby/fight to change them.

If you can think of another PRODUCTIVE solution, I'll gladly continue this conversation but until then, big brother doesn't really care if it bothers you or not.
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Old 07-25-2016, 03:19 PM
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I'm in CA and although currently the regulation is that no smoking on the premises or within a certain number of feet from doors and windows during daycare hours there are laws that are in the process of being passes that would make it illegal to smoke at any family child care home at any time whether or not there are daycare kids present and whether or not it's during daycare hours or when it's closed.

I for one think it's a great idea, but that's just mu opinion and I'm not a smoker and neither is anyone in my family or my circle of friends. Not close ones anyway. Other than aunt that lives a few hours away and my dad that lives in a nother country no one that comes over smokes ... well maybe the occasional client but that's rare.

In any case what it's trying to prevent is the impact of 2nd hand smoke on others ... mainly children here since it's family child care. It is believed that 2nd and even 3rd hand smoke is more dangerous than 1st hand smoking so that's why the strict regulations when it comes to kids.

As far as the references go ... that's a bit stringent but unfortunately it is what it is with that agency so either just do it or sign on with a different agency. I think they're probably trying to avoid referrals of people that are "bad" or just fibbing on their applications.
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Old 07-25-2016, 05:33 PM
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I'm in CA and although currently the regulation is that no smoking on the premises or within a certain number of feet from doors and windows during daycare hours there are laws that are in the process of being passes that would make it illegal to smoke at any family child care home at any time whether or not there are daycare kids present and whether or not it's during daycare hours or when it's closed.

I for one think it's a great idea, but that's just mu opinion and I'm not a smoker and neither is anyone in my family or my circle of friends. Not close ones anyway. Other than aunt that lives a few hours away and my dad that lives in a nother country no one that comes over smokes ... well maybe the occasional client but that's rare.

In any case what it's trying to prevent is the impact of 2nd hand smoke on others ... mainly children here since it's family child care. It is believed that 2nd and even 3rd hand smoke is more dangerous than 1st hand smoking so that's why the strict regulations when it comes to kids.

As far as the references go ... that's a bit stringent but unfortunately it is what it is with that agency so either just do it or sign on with a different agency. I think they're probably trying to avoid referrals of people that are "bad" or just fibbing on their applications.
Like I said, we haven't smoked in years. But I still fail to see how smoking OUTSIDE when the kids are not on the property exposes them to second hand smoke. They are not there when daycare is closed. Now smoking in the daycare home even when closed, I get that the smoke lingers and is still there the next day. But OUTSIDE when kids are NOT there, no exposure.
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Old 07-25-2016, 06:28 PM
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http://www.no-smoke.org/learnmore.php?id=669

"The home, the car, and childrenís outdoor play areas are 3 primary sources of involuntary smoke exposure for children (8)."~http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2015/14_0553.htm

http://www.no-smoke.org/learnmore.php?id=671

https://www2.aap.org/richmondcenter/...o_children.pdf

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...rd-hand-smoke/
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Old 07-25-2016, 07:18 PM
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Like I said, we haven't smoked in years. But I still fail to see how smoking OUTSIDE when the kids are not on the property exposes them to second hand smoke. They are not there when daycare is closed. Now smoking in the daycare home even when closed, I get that the smoke lingers and is still there the next day. But OUTSIDE when kids are NOT there, no exposure.
And I am right there with you... I am an ex smoker & allergic too; what happens off hrs when kids are not present over reaches because even I have friends that visit & smoke outside; Oh yeah, my neighborhood just banned fire pits (3 months ago they banned wading pools & any outdoor play sets including swings); can we say sell & move? And yes, I was just told about the fire pits... what's next? BBQ grills that are charcoal?
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Old 07-25-2016, 09:05 PM
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My family and I discussed it all weekend and I'm not going to work through that agency (it's Wee Watch, btw). It's just too intrusive.
Good decision, in my opinion!
I went through all the research about the agencies because I really wanted to be licensed when I opened my home daycare. After looking through EVERY single option available to me, I decided to be an unlicensed daycare. I'm in Simcoe County (Barrie) and there are only a couple of agencies that I know of that operate in my area, Wee Watch and Simcare. The other alternative was to get licensed by the County, but all kids through their program are subsidized (you can however, take other kids too! But they ask you to take the subsidized families "whenever possible").
I finally decided to just be unlicensed-- SO MANY home daycares here are, it's honestly not even a 'bad thing' in the eyes of clients.
I provide my families with Criminal Record Checks for both adults in my house, my First Aid/CPR certification, references, and I'm an ECE.
I have written policies and procedures, emergency/evacuation plans, cleaning/disinfection schedules...you name it. My daycare exceeds the parents' expectations, and I'm sure it would meet the requirements of most agencies (except maybe those stupid policies that lack all common sense, like washing your hands 18 times per diaper change).
My contract/handbook is so thorough, I don't leave any room for doubt, and my families are more than happy to enroll.

In my opinion, the only thing a license would give me is a big, fat, headache...
(NOTE TO THOSE OUTSIDE OF ONTARIO-- a "licensing agency" is the ONLY way to get licensed in the province of Ontario)
...working via a licensing agency means that:
-you don't decide your rates/fees, you don't collect payments
-you get a paycheck, at the agencies' weekly salary (I know many families who were at agency-licensed daycares, only to have it suddenly close down because the provider wasn't making a living wage)
-you have to deal with this agency's "home visitor" coming unannounced every month, who is an ECE hired by the agency. They don't have to have any other qualifications, they are not linked to any government office or anything... This bothers me because they have a lot of power over you, and your home, and family! All it takes is one person on a power-trip to make your life miserable. If she doesn't like your setup, your policies (or do they set all the policies?!), your menu, or whatever else it may be, she has the power to make you run in circles making changes to your entire business.
I know a lot of people deal with this, and I would too, if it was required for me to operate-- It just bothers me that this person isn't an inspector from any legitimate ministry, etc...just an ECE working for a for-profit company. And after 10 years working in centres, I sadly know a lot of terrible ECEs (but a lot of great ones, too)
I know, I know...Some home visitors are great, I'm sure, and some agencies are probably great, too! I just didn't want to risk my livelihood on it, especially since I've heard less than encouraging things about agencies.

I guess for many people, the agency thing can be great; apparently they help with your startup costs, and sometimes help you with getting some equipment, and the government sometimes gives random childcare worker wage enhancement funding. But for me, it just wasn't enough of a benefit to give up SO MUCH control over my business!

Good luck with your decisions about agencies, I hope it works out great for you, whichever way you decide to go!
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:39 AM
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Good decision, in my opinion!
I went through all the research about the agencies because I really wanted to be licensed when I opened my home daycare. After looking through EVERY single option available to me, I decided to be an unlicensed daycare. I'm in Simcoe County (Barrie) and there are only a couple of agencies that I know of that operate in my area, Wee Watch and Simcare. The other alternative was to get licensed by the County, but all kids through their program are subsidized (you can however, take other kids too! But they ask you to take the subsidized families "whenever possible").
I finally decided to just be unlicensed-- SO MANY home daycares here are, it's honestly not even a 'bad thing' in the eyes of clients.
I provide my families with Criminal Record Checks for both adults in my house, my First Aid/CPR certification, references, and I'm an ECE.
I have written policies and procedures, emergency/evacuation plans, cleaning/disinfection schedules...you name it. My daycare exceeds the parents' expectations, and I'm sure it would meet the requirements of most agencies (except maybe those stupid policies that lack all common sense, like washing your hands 18 times per diaper change).
My contract/handbook is so thorough, I don't leave any room for doubt, and my families are more than happy to enroll.

In my opinion, the only thing a license would give me is a big, fat, headache...
(NOTE TO THOSE OUTSIDE OF ONTARIO-- a "licensing agency" is the ONLY way to get licensed in the province of Ontario)
...working via a licensing agency means that:
-you don't decide your rates/fees, you don't collect payments
-you get a paycheck, at the agencies' weekly salary (I know many families who were at agency-licensed daycares, only to have it suddenly close down because the provider wasn't making a living wage)
-you have to deal with this agency's "home visitor" coming unannounced every month, who is an ECE hired by the agency. They don't have to have any other qualifications, they are not linked to any government office or anything... This bothers me because they have a lot of power over you, and your home, and family! All it takes is one person on a power-trip to make your life miserable. If she doesn't like your setup, your policies (or do they set all the policies?!), your menu, or whatever else it may be, she has the power to make you run in circles making changes to your entire business.
I know a lot of people deal with this, and I would too, if it was required for me to operate-- It just bothers me that this person isn't an inspector from any legitimate ministry, etc...just an ECE working for a for-profit company. And after 10 years working in centres, I sadly know a lot of terrible ECEs (but a lot of great ones, too)
I know, I know...Some home visitors are great, I'm sure, and some agencies are probably great, too! I just didn't want to risk my livelihood on it, especially since I've heard less than encouraging things about agencies.

I guess for many people, the agency thing can be great; apparently they help with your startup costs, and sometimes help you with getting some equipment, and the government sometimes gives random childcare worker wage enhancement funding. But for me, it just wasn't enough of a benefit to give up SO MUCH control over my business!

Good luck with your decisions about agencies, I hope it works out great for you, whichever way you decide to go!
I am in agreement with all of your objections. The agency lady and I seemed to be on the same page wrt activities and menus, but what if we weren't? I want this to be MY business and I want to have a lot of autonomy. I've spent years planning and researching, and I continue to research early childhood education and childcare practices searching for new ideas that appeal to me. I don't want to be told, for example, that a peace table or a mud kitchen or curry for lunch are unacceptable and that I cannot go ahead with them.

As for the lying about smoking (other posters have mentioned), I could easily agree to no smoking on the premises, ever, at any time, and still be lying my face off. They either trust me, or they don't.

There will be no smoking (cigarettes) on the premises during daycare hours. I may allow my mom to vape (e-cig; no smoke, only water vapor) on the front porch during daycare hours though. We have a large town property (not acreage, but large for an in-town home) and if she is on the front porch she would be far enough away from playing children (backyard) that it's reasonable to assume that the vapor will not reach the children until it has dissipated to almost nothing.
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:47 AM
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Like I said, we haven't smoked in years. But I still fail to see how smoking OUTSIDE when the kids are not on the property exposes them to second hand smoke. They are not there when daycare is closed. Now smoking in the daycare home even when closed, I get that the smoke lingers and is still there the next day. But OUTSIDE when kids are NOT there, no exposure.
I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:49 AM
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I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.
Well I find it hard to believe in that case that they are not smoking near the child.
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Old 07-26-2016, 04:57 AM
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I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.
What if one or all of my next door neighbours smokes outside in their yard (on the other side of the fence)? Should a provider close their daycare under those circumstances? Where is the line drawn?
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:02 AM
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What if one or all of my next door neighbours smokes outside in their yard (on the other side of the fence)? Should a provider close their daycare under those circumstances? Where is the line drawn?
I tend to agree. That is my issue, where do we draw lines, and private property is private property. Are you supposed to go tell the neighbors they can't smoke on their property?
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:02 AM
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What if one or all of my next door neighbours smokes outside in their yard (on the other side of the fence)? Should a provider close their daycare under those circumstances? Where is the line drawn?
All I know is there are very few places that allow smoking on the premises around here so that tells me being around smoke in any kind of way causes negative affects. ??
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Old 07-26-2016, 05:04 AM
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All I know is there are very few places that allow smoking on the premises around here so that tells me being around smoke in any kind of way causes negative affects. ??
Well maybe who knows. But, this is still a free country somewhat. So the government telling us what we can do at our home in our personal time is over reaching to me. I totally can see no smoking INSIDE the daycare. But outside when daycare is closed, is getting more communist than democratic.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:12 AM
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All I know is there are very few places that allow smoking on the premises around here so that tells me being around smoke in any kind of way causes negative affects. ??
Well, studies have shown that second hand smoke is harmful so I have no argument there. My question is where is the line drawn and why are the rules seemingly punitive and overly restrictive. For example, my mother can't smoke anywhere on our property even when daycare is not in session, but my neighbour can smoke in his backyard on the other side of the fence where the daycare kids are actually playing and that's totally fine. It just seems nonsensical to require that my property (not just home; nobody EVER smokes in my home unless they are asking to be thrown out permanently) be completely smoke free ALWAYS while it's perfectly ok for the kids to playing in a cloud of cigarette smoke generated by my neighbours.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:33 AM
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is getting more communist than democratic.
The smoking topic can easily become a small war. Blackcat and Thriftylady are both right.

I've never smoked. Both parents do/did so you'd think I would also, but as a child, they smoked in the house and I had to leave the room whenever they lit up or I'd get a headache. They didn't care. They thought I was just imagining it. One year, we painted to cover the brown ceilings and they saw how much the smoke did to the paint, so they started smoking outside. Good to know the house paint is more important than my headaches.

I hate cigarette smoke to the point that I would never even date a smoker. The last few years I've been waking up every morning with smoker's cough. Yup, it is smoker's cough and is cleared up 2 to 4 hours after I get up. If I ever go to any place where there is smoking, I don't care what it is, I leave.

My opinion on all this...

Blackcat is right. Even smoking in the yard leaves contaminants.

Thriftylady is right. Saying smoking in the yard after hours is not allowed is a bit too far.

If I had children and used daycare, I wouldn't want any smoking at all, but then, I'd also make sure the provider lived by those standards. I wouldn't even leave my kids with family or friends who smoke for any period of time, not even my mother. Sounds harsh, but it affected me. I wouldn't let it affect my kids. Anything more than a short visit, she'd have to come to my place without cigarettes.


There is no easy way to decide where to draw the line because we could say no smoking on the yard, but the neighbors house might be only 20' away. Does that mean if they smoke, you can't do daycare? Or, do you just ask them if you can step on their yard to smoke? What about if your yard is 10 acres? If you go back 100', you still can't smoke? It's too complicated. Could just do the same as most retail areas do. No smoking within such and such a distance.

It should be illegal for anyone to smoke around kids, and maybe even for anyone to smoke in or near any place kids go regularly, but I know parents who smoke right inside their house, and it's not illegal. Some parents won't even care if their daycare provider smokes. Others wouldn't want any smoking even on the property. It's ultimately the parents choice. They choose a provider who meets their needs and standards.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:47 AM
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Blackcat is right. Even smoking in the yard leaves contaminants.

Thriftylady is right. Saying smoking in the yard after hours is not allowed is a bit too far.
Im not trying to be right. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's about choices.

My point is that if you (general you) do not like, agree with or support a rule.......do something about it.

Continually saying over and over that it's over reaching, unfair, not right, too much etc etc isn't productive at all.

I can write post after post and list after list of all the things I don't agree with or like in life but that won't do any good unless I am willing to be part of the solution.

My single point in this entire discussion is that no one forced anyone to apply for a license. No one required anyone to get into this field of work.

If you do choose to though and you sign on the dotted line when applying for your license you are agreeing to the rules they set forth.

If those rules don't fit in with your way of living or your personal beliefs you again have a choice....adapt and over come, fight to change things or do something else.

It's VERY similar to the concept of the serenity prayer

change the things you can, accept those things you can't and have the wisdom to know the difference.

(yes, I know the prayer in it's entirety...I am simply paraphrasing it's point)
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:50 AM
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When you smoke outside and come back in, you're carrying the smoke with you. The children are exposed to second hand smoke even indoors.
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Old 07-26-2016, 06:56 AM
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When you smoke outside and come back in, you're carrying the smoke with you. The children are exposed to second hand smoke even indoors.
Yeah, I believe that it's referred to as third hand exposure. Where the toxins/carcinogens are on your clothing and skin/hair and can then be deposited on your furniture or others (through contact). My mom stinks after going out for a cigarette. DH and I have to mouth breathe around her it's just so gross. She never goes down to the lower level where the daycare is located, nor does she ever go to the backyard where the kids play. She is disabled and can barely make it to the front porch.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:04 AM
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Im not trying to be right. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's about choices.

My point is that if you (general you) do not like, agree with or support a rule.......do something about it.

Continually saying over and over that it's over reaching, unfair, not right, too much etc etc isn't productive at all.

I can write post after post and list after list of all the things I don't agree with or like in life but that won't do any good unless I am willing to be part of the solution.

My single point in this entire discussion is that no one forced anyone to apply for a license. No one required anyone to get into this field of work.

If you do choose to though and you sign on the dotted line when applying for your license you are agreeing to the rules they set forth.

If those rules don't fit in with your way of living or your personal beliefs you again have a choice....adapt and over come, fight to change things or do something else.

It's VERY similar to the concept of the serenity prayer

change the things you can, accept those things you can't and have the wisdom to know the difference.

(yes, I know the prayer in it's entirety...I am simply paraphrasing it's point)
We are doing something about it. We are choosing to provide childcare privately (which is completely legal). In most areas of Canada, childcare is in huge demand. Government and agencies can set any policies they want but if they want providers to be licensed then they had better set policies and demands that also work for the providers and their household.

Daycare isn't the only gig in town for me. Plenty of other employment opportunities I could choose from, but I happen to WANT to provide daycare. At this point, if I had no choice but to work through an agency, then I would find another job (and up to five families would need to look for care elsewhere). In many areas of Ontario, there are not only waiting lists for daycare (private and licensed), there are also fees to be on the waiting lists.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:10 AM
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We are doing something about it. We are choosing to provide childcare privately (which is completely legal). In most areas of Canada, childcare is in huge demand. Government and agencies can set any policies they want but if they want providers to be licensed then they had better set policies and demands that also work for the providers and their household.

Daycare isn't the only gig in town for me. Plenty of other employment opportunities I could choose from, but I happen to WANT to provide daycare. At this point, if I had no choice but to work through an agency, then I would find another job (and up to five families would need to look for care elsewhere). In many areas of Ontario, there are not only waiting lists for daycare (private and licensed), there are also fees to be on the waiting lists.
Perfect example..... agency rules don't work for you and your family. You are choosing to connect with other resources and operate in a legal manner in which you are allowed to do.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:10 AM
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Im not trying to be right. It has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's about choices.

My point is that if you (general you) do not like, agree with or support a rule.......do something about it.

Continually saying over and over that it's over reaching, unfair, not right, too much etc etc isn't productive at all.

I can write post after post and list after list of all the things I don't agree with or like in life but that won't do any good unless I am willing to be part of the solution.

My single point in this entire discussion is that no one forced anyone to apply for a license. No one required anyone to get into this field of work.

If you do choose to though and you sign on the dotted line when applying for your license you are agreeing to the rules they set forth.

If those rules don't fit in with your way of living or your personal beliefs you again have a choice....adapt and over come, fight to change things or do something else.

It's VERY similar to the concept of the serenity prayer

change the things you can, accept those things you can't and have the wisdom to know the difference.

(yes, I know the prayer in it's entirety...I am simply paraphrasing it's point)
That is true. If you choose to do something that has rules, it's your choice to do it and even your choice how to deal with the rules. If you don't like rules, go on your own and you can run business any way you want. It's just a case of matching clients with providers.

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When you smoke outside and come back in, you're carrying the smoke with you. The children are exposed to second hand smoke even indoors.

And that's why I don't even allow friends to smoke on my property. I've already had enough 2nd and 3rd hand smoke, and related toxins, in my life.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:14 AM
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We are doing something about it. We are choosing to provide childcare privately (which is completely legal). In most areas of Canada, childcare is in huge demand. Government and agencies can set any policies they want but if they want providers to be licensed then they had better set policies and demands that also work for the providers and their household.

Daycare isn't the only gig in town for me. Plenty of other employment opportunities I could choose from, but I happen to WANT to provide daycare. At this point, if I had no choice but to work through an agency, then I would find another job (and up to five families would need to look for care elsewhere). In many areas of Ontario, there are not only waiting lists for daycare (private and licensed), there are also fees to be on the waiting lists.
My plans too. I remember reading a news article once about the government, Ontario at least, making plans to eventually make all daycare require registration. I said to myself that if I go into daycare and that happens, it'll be time to go into a different business.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:20 AM
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My plans too. I remember reading a news article once about the government, Ontario at least, making plans to eventually make all daycare require registration. I said to myself that if I go into daycare and that happens, it'll be time to go into a different business.
Yup, ditto. I live in an area with a decent economy and lots of jobs making about the same amount ($15-$20/hour?), even possibly working fewer hours for the same "take home" pay (though they do rotating shifts). If they make it so that I have to work through an agency then I'll be bowing out.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:21 AM
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My plans too. I remember reading a news article once about the government, Ontario at least, making plans to eventually make all daycare require registration. I said to myself that if I go into daycare and that happens, it'll be time to go into a different business.
I kind of feel the same way right now. I am legally unlicensed. And the smoking thing has nothing to do with it for me. I used to smoke, but can't stand the smell of it since I quit 9 or so years ago. But my county in Ohio has other laws that are way over the line, and aren't even state regulation, so I will never be licensed at least in this county.
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Old 07-26-2016, 07:28 AM
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And that's why I don't even allow friends to smoke on my property. I've already had enough 2nd and 3rd hand smoke, and related toxins, in my life.
It's somewhat unavoidable in almost every other environment though. For example, I just finished working in a call center for the last two years. You can't prevent the employee, who has just returned from having a cigarette on their break, from sitting next to you. You can't tell someone on the bus not to sit next to you. Or the person standing line ahead or behind you. Or what about the daycare parent, who smokes, and picks up or drops off their child while smelling strongly of cigarettes? Are you going to deny them access? Term them?

I don't smoke and I also have an allergy to tobacco. I don't think that I can adequately describe how much I wish that I could always avoid cigarette smoke, but the reality is that I can't, so I'm not going to try other than not allowing smoking ever in my home, and only allowing smoking outside during non-daycare hours.
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Old 07-26-2016, 08:09 AM
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It's somewhat unavoidable in almost every other environment though. For example, I just finished working in a call center for the last two years. You can't prevent the employee, who has just returned from having a cigarette on their break, from sitting next to you. You can't tell someone on the bus not to sit next to you. Or the person standing line ahead or behind you. Or what about the daycare parent, who smokes, and picks up or drops off their child while smelling strongly of cigarettes? Are you going to deny them access? Term them?

I don't smoke and I also have an allergy to tobacco. I don't think that I can adequately describe how much I wish that I could always avoid cigarette smoke, but the reality is that I can't, so I'm not going to try other than not allowing smoking ever in my home, and only allowing smoking outside during non-daycare hours.
Totally agree with you on all counts, and do the same thing as I bolded. Most of my visitors don't smoke either though. Most of my daycare parents do smoke, and most do it around their children.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:09 AM
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Well, studies have shown that second hand smoke is harmful so I have no argument there. My question is where is the line drawn and why are the rules seemingly punitive and overly restrictive. For example, my mother can't smoke anywhere on our property even when daycare is not in session, but my neighbour can smoke in his backyard on the other side of the fence where the daycare kids are actually playing and that's totally fine. It just seems nonsensical to require that my property (not just home; nobody EVER smokes in my home unless they are asking to be thrown out permanently) be completely smoke free ALWAYS while it's perfectly ok for the kids to playing in a cloud of cigarette smoke generated by my neighbours.
Not sure if the state should draw the line or not on cigarette smoke....but similarly, my neighbor walks his dog regularly....and one day while doing so he ventured into my drive while licensing was here....i was informed if the neighbor's dog left feces in my yard, I was to blame so I ASSUME if the neighbor has cigarette smoke coming into my yard I would be to blame....or at least would be expected to take the kids inside to avoid the smoke....not saying this is fair, but when being regulated by the state, their rules trump how I feel personally about the issue ????
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:21 AM
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Not sure if the state should draw the line or not on cigarette smoke....but similarly, my neighbor walks his dog regularly....and one day while doing so he ventured into my drive while licensing was here....i was informed if the neighbor's dog left feces in my yard, I was to blame so I ASSUME if the neighbor has cigarette smoke coming into my yard I would be to blame....or at least would be expected to take the kids inside to avoid the smoke....not saying this is fair, but when being regulated by the state, their rules trump how I feel personally about the issue ????
State rules should not trump what is reasonable and/or within the providers control.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:24 AM
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State rules should not trump what is reasonable and/or within the providers control.
But too many times, it does....not that I like it, but my state has many unrealistic expectations that I have to follow. Not saying I agree, but it is what it is.
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:30 AM
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I disagree with this and see it in kids all the time...got one with a hacking cough that says she is NEVER around smoke and all smoking is done outside at the barn away from the home....yeah right, the kid can't breath.....smoke pollutes EVERYTHING! Even the doctor told her there was nothing he could do for the child and they needed to stop smoking anywhere on the premises.
I must have the twin parents... I have a kid that is the same way and he won't get better because they refuse to stop smoking in the car before pick-up, much less in the "yard". They bitch because he is constantly getting sinus infections and he just turned a year old last week...
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Old 07-26-2016, 09:37 AM
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It's somewhat unavoidable in almost every other environment though. For example, I just finished working in a call center for the last two years. You can't prevent the employee, who has just returned from having a cigarette on their break, from sitting next to you. You can't tell someone on the bus not to sit next to you. Or the person standing line ahead or behind you. Or what about the daycare parent, who smokes, and picks up or drops off their child while smelling strongly of cigarettes? Are you going to deny them access? Term them?
I hate everything to do with smoking and yes while I agree we can't always avoid it, as an adult we can do our best to minimize exposure it. You can ask for a new desk away from a smoking coworker, you can move seats on the bus or get off or move out of line. I have let a daycare family go because their personal belongs and dcg clothes had so much third hand residue on them. I chose to make myself less susceptible to exposure. I have a strong no smoking policy, that includes exclusion from the daycare home if a parent had a cigarette in the car on the way to pick up.

A child simply can not do this, though, and their little bodies are taking in all these toxins while they are still developing. If your guest has a cigarette, and then comes back inside, days later that 3rd hand residue is still in your home. If it is near the rugs and furniture they touch, climb on and chew, they are completely exposed to those insane chemicals.

I agree that sometimes it feels like government over reach but I agree with Black Cat, there are other lines of work, or ways to legally operate a child care without a license.
Its kind of like when we tell parents asking how to get out of their contract. We all know the rules a regs before getting licensed. Can't be upset if you knew it all ahead of time.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:19 AM
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It's somewhat unavoidable in almost every other environment though. For example, I just finished working in a call center for the last two years. You can't prevent the employee, who has just returned from having a cigarette on their break, from sitting next to you. You can't tell someone on the bus not to sit next to you. Or the person standing line ahead or behind you. Or what about the daycare parent, who smokes, and picks up or drops off their child while smelling strongly of cigarettes? Are you going to deny them access? Term them?

I don't smoke and I also have an allergy to tobacco. I don't think that I can adequately describe how much I wish that I could always avoid cigarette smoke, but the reality is that I can't, so I'm not going to try other than not allowing smoking ever in my home, and only allowing smoking outside during non-daycare hours.
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Originally Posted by JackandJill View Post
I hate everything to do with smoking and yes while I agree we can't always avoid it, as an adult we can do our best to minimize exposure it. You can ask for a new desk away from a smoking coworker, you can move seats on the bus or get off or move out of line. I have let a daycare family go because their personal belongs and dcg clothes had so much third hand residue on them. I chose to make myself less susceptible to exposure. I have a strong no smoking policy, that includes exclusion from the daycare home if a parent had a cigarette in the car on the way to pick up.

A child simply can not do this, though, and their little bodies are taking in all these toxins while they are still developing. If your guest has a cigarette, and then comes back inside, days later that 3rd hand residue is still in your home. If it is near the rugs and furniture they touch, climb on and chew, they are completely exposed to those insane chemicals.

I agree that sometimes it feels like government over reach but I agree with Black Cat, there are other lines of work, or ways to legally operate a child care without a license.
Its kind of like when we tell parents asking how to get out of their contract. We all know the rules a regs before getting licensed. Can't be upset if you knew it all ahead of time.


I can't stop DCPs from smoking, but they can't smoke on my property. Also can't totally avoid exposure, but can minimize it in any way I have control of.
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Old 07-26-2016, 11:35 AM
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Luna Luna is offline
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I have been with Wee Watch in Ontario for about 8 years.
I believe the no smoking policy is a ministry licensing regulation, not a Wee Watch policy, but I could be wrong. I can tell you that no home visitor or lincensing official is ever going to visit you during non-daycare hours.
I agree the initial hoops to jump through in the beginning can be overwhelming, but after that it's much easier. For me, the positives outweigh the negatives. I totally create and run my own program. They offer suggestions and supply materials, but whether or not I use them is totally up to me. I used to do both private and Wee Watch care, but now I refer anyone who approaches me privately to ask for me through the agency.
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Old 07-26-2016, 02:40 PM
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Mike Mike is offline
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Originally Posted by Luna View Post
They offer suggestions and supply materials, but whether or not I use them is totally up to me.
For me, that would be one of the main advantages of licensed, but after carefully weighing the pros and cons of each choice, I decided I'm going to go unlicensed. It was a page on the weewatch website that actually made my ultimate choice.
Quote:
Do you love children and have loads of energy but donít want to deal with the business aspect of running your own home daycare?
I've been self-employed in different fields most of my life, so the business aspect of it is nothing to me. I already have all that set up now. Ready to start as soon as I relocate and have a place to run the business.
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  #53  
Old 07-29-2016, 06:03 PM
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debbiedoeszip debbiedoeszip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luna View Post
I have been with Wee Watch in Ontario for about 8 years.
I believe the no smoking policy is a ministry licensing regulation, not a Wee Watch policy, but I could be wrong. I can tell you that no home visitor or lincensing official is ever going to visit you during non-daycare hours.
I agree the initial hoops to jump through in the beginning can be overwhelming, but after that it's much easier. For me, the positives outweigh the negatives. I totally create and run my own program. They offer suggestions and supply materials, but whether or not I use them is totally up to me. I used to do both private and Wee Watch care, but now I refer anyone who approaches me privately to ask for me through the agency.
I actually really liked the WW home visitor. It helped a bunch that she and I seemed to agree on most of my policies and practices (including sample menus). It's good to hear that even if we had disagreed that I would still be able to run my program how I want. It's too bad that I couldn't see past my other objections. I think that I would have done well with WW.
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  #54  
Old 07-29-2016, 06:13 PM
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debbiedoeszip debbiedoeszip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackandJill View Post
I hate everything to do with smoking and yes while I agree we can't always avoid it, as an adult we can do our best to minimize exposure it. You can ask for a new desk away from a smoking coworker, you can move seats on the bus or get off or move out of line. I have let a daycare family go because their personal belongs and dcg clothes had so much third hand residue on them. I chose to make myself less susceptible to exposure. I have a strong no smoking policy, that includes exclusion from the daycare home if a parent had a cigarette in the car on the way to pick up.

A child simply can not do this, though, and their little bodies are taking in all these toxins while they are still developing. If your guest has a cigarette, and then comes back inside, days later that 3rd hand residue is still in your home. If it is near the rugs and furniture they touch, climb on and chew, they are completely exposed to those insane chemicals.

I agree that sometimes it feels like government over reach but I agree with Black Cat, there are other lines of work, or ways to legally operate a child care without a license.
Its kind of like when we tell parents asking how to get out of their contract. We all know the rules a regs before getting licensed. Can't be upset if you knew it all ahead of time.
Sure, you can ask for a new desk, but there may not be one available that isn't next to a smoker. Tobacco is a big allergen for me. So are cats. It got to the point that there was no desk that wasn't next to either a smoker or cat owner. I just had to suck it up (or, rather, wheeze and break out in hives).

Sometimes getting off a bus or moving out of a line has serious consequences. What if that's the last bus that can get you to work on time (and your boss likes to fire people). What if the line up is at the dmv and you need a driver's license for work. Other times it's just massively inconvenient to get off that bus or out of that line.

Sure, there's a choice but it's not always a good or realistic choice.
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  #55  
Old 07-29-2016, 06:23 PM
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debbiedoeszip debbiedoeszip is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike View Post
For me, that would be one of the main advantages of licensed, but after carefully weighing the pros and cons of each choice, I decided I'm going to go unlicensed. It was a page on the weewatch website that actually made my ultimate choice.

I've been self-employed in different fields most of my life, so the business aspect of it is nothing to me. I already have all that set up now. Ready to start as soon as I relocate and have a place to run the business.
I've never been self employed but I'm not daunted by what it entails. And, really, the agencies only help (business/paperwork wise) with recovering payments from clients and by potentially enticing new clients. The provider still has a ton of paperwork and accounting that they have to do themselves, both for tax purposes and to satisfy/aid the agency (attendance, menus, injury reports etc).
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  #56  
Old 08-02-2016, 07:37 AM
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Luna Luna is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by debbiedoeszip View Post
I've never been self employed but I'm not daunted by what it entails. And, really, the agencies only help (business/paperwork wise) with recovering payments from clients and by potentially enticing new clients. The provider still has a ton of paperwork and accounting that they have to do themselves, both for tax purposes and to satisfy/aid the agency (attendance, menus, injury reports etc).
I AM daunted by the business details, so there's that. But also, the support I get is a lifesaver and immeasurable.We all know this work can be very isolating, so it's good to know help is just a phone call away. They've helped me deal with difficult parents, they provide and pay for professional development and arrange transportation for any of us who want it, they make sure we get all grants available to lincensed child care providers (they can be substantial), they provide backup care if I'm sick or on vacation...it's more than chasing down payments and screening clients.
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