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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>51 Child Deaths In Virginia Unlicensed Care?
Cat Herder 06:55 AM 01-12-2015
What are your thoughts on this?


http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loca...021815536.html
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Play Care 07:30 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
What are your thoughts on this?


http://www.newsadvance.com/news/loca...021815536.html
This is pretty much the same in every state - kids die in unlicensed (illegal?) homes and those who are registered/licensed get more regulations. And nothing is done about the unlicensed/illegal day care
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AuntTami 07:58 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Play Care:
This is pretty much the same in every state - kids die in unlicensed (illegal?) homes and those who are registered/licensed get more regulations. And nothing is done about the unlicensed/illegal day care
The problem isn't us "unlicensed" providers. The problem is WHO is providing that care. I'm LEGALLY unlicensed but my house is up to all standards set by my state.

Setting more regulations for the licensed providers isn't going to prevent the "bad" daycares.
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Cat Herder 07:59 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by AuntTami:
The problem isn't us "unlicensed" providers. The problem is WHO is providing that care. I'm LEGALLY unlicensed but my house is up to all standards set by my state.

Setting more regulations for the licensed providers isn't going to prevent the "bad" daycares.
How often are legally unlicensed providers inspected?
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SquirrellyMama 08:26 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
How often are legally unlicensed providers inspected?
How often are licensed day cares inspected. When I was licensed in my state I was never inspected. The food program came out twice a year, but the state never did. That was 4 years of being licensed, or registered. I can't remember what Iowa calls it.

I knew once a year when the food program was coming, but the other was a surprise visit. Of course, I knew exactly what time they would come if they did a surprise visit so that wasn't all that much of a surprise.

Day cares 10 miles north were inspected by the state because the local DHS is in that town.

Interestingly, when I was getting business insurance I was asked by our agent if I was licensed. I said no and asked if they wanted me to be. He said they preferred me to be unlicensed because I would have fewer children that way.

ETA: I understand that the food program is a state program, but they were looking at my food prep, not my house.


Kelly
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Play Care 08:43 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
How often are legally unlicensed providers inspected?
This. We get pop ins every couple of months and a large scale scheduled inspection every two years, unless our name gets pulled from the lucky lottery and then it's more often

In my state an unlicensed provider may only care for TWO unrelated children in their home (of course many provide care for more than that ) but if they claim they only have TWO, there is NO oversight. They can claim they follow all state regs, but no one is popping in to check (and if they do the unlicensed provider doesn't have to allow them in) I know many a babysitter in my area that has refused to allow state official in to inspect. Most of the time they don't return with a warrant as they don't have the manpower.

But honestly, my reply was speaking to the article in which the children died in UNLICENSED day care. And because of that they want to regulate LICENSED day care. This IS an issue for those of us who are licensed. I had to tell my licensor about my NEIGHBORS pool, which they may have to inspect to make sure it's safe all because a little girl died in an unlicensed day home because the sitters pool was directly off her deck with no barrier. So *I* (and my neighbors! ) have to jump through hoops, but unlicensed providers have no such restrictions. What's to prevent another child dying in an unlicensed day home?
I know there are many legally operating unlicensed providers here, and that's fine. I've said if I didn't have to have a license, I wouldn't. In fact I didn't when I was starting out and only caring for two dck's - so I can say clearly that there are many things I do now because licensing requires it that I would not if I were legally unlicensed.
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Cat Herder 08:54 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
How often are licensed day cares inspected.
I am "inspected" unannounced once a year = multiple hours, looking through closets, sheds, records and my private family areas as well as childcare areas. Observing my interactions with kids.

I am "monitored" unannounced 4 times a year = usually 1 hour, quick walk through of childcare areas, quick look through records, reading of lesson plans/menus.

I am "assisted" monthly = Announced 1-2 hour in home training/observing visit.

That does not answer my question, though. Each state has their own definitions of everything, I really don't know the answer... was looking for what makes them "legal". Does the state even know they exist? That kind of thing.... just an interesting topic.
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LysesKids 08:54 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by AuntTami:
The problem isn't us "unlicensed" providers. The problem is WHO is providing that care. I'm LEGALLY unlicensed but my house is up to all standards set by my state.

Setting more regulations for the licensed providers isn't going to prevent the "bad" daycares.
I am running a legally licensed exempt home that is actually up to the standards of a licensed home or more so (it's literally only a yr old), however my state won't give me the license because it's a single wide, whereas my rancher home that was 16 sq ft smaller had no issues (well except black mold)... If I had stayed there it would have been licensed (crazy huh). The food program actually checks electrical outlets, blinds/cords and such here when they pop in to inspect and yes some of the inspections are unannounced. I have been a licensed provider in a few states too so I understand the rules & regs... I run like I am licensed for safety reasons
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Cat Herder 09:03 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
I am running a legally licensed exempt home that is actually up to the standards of a licensed home or more so (it's literally only a yr old), however my state won't give me the license because it's a single wide, whereas my rancher home that was 16 sq ft smaller had no issues (well except black mold)... If I had stayed there it would have been licensed (crazy huh). The food program actually checks electrical outlets, blinds/cords and such here when they pop in to inspect and yes some of the inspections are unannounced. I have been a licensed provider in a few states too so I understand the rules & regs... I run like I am licensed for safety reasons
Ok, I get that. We were like that once here, too. The food program reps inspected and monitored you instead of the separate umbrella of "childcare inspector".

Providers here that are on the food program have to endure both, now.. I can't even imagine jumping through both sets of hoops. They are notoriously at opposite ends of the spectrum...

Food program inspections = care, nutrition, health and safety.
Childcare inspections= Community service, education and family resource.

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SquirrellyMama 09:23 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
I am "inspected" unannounced once a year = multiple hours, looking through closets, sheds, records and my private family areas as well as childcare areas. Observing my interactions with kids.

I am "monitored" unannounced 4 times a year = usually 1 hour, quick walk through of childcare areas, quick look through records, reading of lesson plans/menus.

I am "assisted" monthly = Announced 1-2 hour in home training/observing visit.

That does not answer my question, though. Each state has their own definitions of everything, I really don't know the answer... was looking for what makes them "legal". Does the state even know they exist? That kind of thing.... just an interesting topic.
I understand some states do a good job, I was just highlighting the fact that some states do a horrible job of inspecting. I've been inspected the same number of times unlicensed as I was licensed, 0.

I'm all for not increasing regulations on licensed care. It isn't going to help. I totally agree.

Are you asking what makes unlicensed care legal? I don't have over my allowed number of kids for one thing. It seems that's usually the biggest issue. I run things unlicensed like I did when I was registered. I think I'm sometimes even more careful just because I am unlicensed.

Just so I'm not in trouble for being online. I don't have any dc kids right now. They are in preschool during this time

Kelly
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Heidi 09:35 AM 01-12-2015
Once again, instead of adding new laws, just enforce the ones already there.

Making EVERYONE who cares for children required to be licensing (even one or two) will just further burden the system. WI already can't shut down ILLEGAL care (those caring for more than 3 children without a license here), so how would making the rules stricter help?

That's my argument for WI, anyway. Enforce what you already have in place.
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SquirrellyMama 09:58 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Providers here that are on the food program have to endure both, now.. I can't even imagine jumping through both sets of hoops. They are notoriously at opposite ends of the spectrum...
How frustrating for providers. I'd lose it with someone if I had to deal with people who couldn't agree on what I needed to do.

Kelly
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Cat Herder 10:02 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
Are you asking what makes unlicensed care legal?

Just so I'm not in trouble for being online. I don't have any dc kids right now. They are in preschool during this time

Kelly
Yes, I guess . I do wonder about that. How are legally unlicensed providers monitored? How does the state know you exist? Is it a trust system?

I see you are inspected unlicensed. That makes sense... but are all states unlicensed also inspected?

How/why would you be in trouble for being online?
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NeedaVaca 10:07 AM 01-12-2015
I don't know...I see a LOT of deaths in licensed facilities in the news as well. I just read somewhere that there were 6 infant deaths in MN by licensed providers in one year. The 51 deaths mentioned in this article is over a decade. I'm sure numbers vary state to state and many go unreported so it's hard to get accurate counts but licensed daycare has it's fair share and I see it on the news all the time
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SquirrellyMama 10:12 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Yes, I guess . I do wonder about that. How are legally unlicensed providers monitored? How does the state know you exist? Is it a trust system?

How/why would you be in trouble for being online?
I suppose it is a trust system. I'm supposed to only have 5 kids which I stay below. I make sure I'm current on CPR and First Aid. I serve meals that would be accepted by the food program.

It is usually the bad ones that make it harder for everyone. Frustrating for sure.

If I had to be I would get licensed. It just isn't worth the hassle for two kids.

I won't really be in trouble for being online. I know some people question providers online while kids are in attendance. I don't have kids right now, and I'm procrastinating The funniest part is that I'm procrastinating reading a book about not procrastinating.
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Cat Herder 10:12 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I don't know...I see a LOT of deaths in licensed facilities in the news as well. I just read somewhere that there were 6 infant deaths in MN by licensed providers in one year. The 51 deaths mentioned in this article is over a decade. I'm sure numbers vary state to state and many go unreported so it's hard to get accurate counts but licensed daycare has it's fair share and I see it on the news all the time
Oh, I agree. This article is just the one being emailed out to providers from the NAFCC this morning. The topic is interesting, though.

Licensed/unlicensed, legal/illegal, registered/unregistered, high quality/low quality... it is all confusing. What does each mean? Who is inspecting? Who is enforcing? Who is advocating? Who is benefiting?... YKWIM?
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SquirrellyMama 10:14 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I don't know...I see a LOT of deaths in licensed facilities in the news as well. I just read somewhere that there were 6 infant deaths in MN by licensed providers in one year. The 51 deaths mentioned in this article is over a decade. I'm sure numbers vary state to state and many go unreported so it's hard to get accurate counts but licensed daycare has it's fair share and I see it on the news all the time
I read that as "6 deaths in MN by a licensed provider in one year". I had to do a reread on that one. I tried to find numbers by licensed vs unlicensed in the country, but couldn't find anything. I probably need Googling classes.

Kelly
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Cat Herder 10:15 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
I'm procrastinating The funniest part is that I'm procrastinating reading a book about not procrastinating.
I am procrastinating making a bulletin board full of outdated pamphlets, for parents who never step foot into my house, to meet a checkbox requirement on someone else's agenda...

I get you.
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Blackcat31 10:51 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
I don't know...I see a LOT of deaths in licensed facilities in the news as well. I just read somewhere that there were 6 infant deaths in MN by licensed providers in one year.
Not sure where you got that information but between 2002 and 2012 there were 83 deaths in MN licensed child cares. There were 3 deaths in licensed centers.

Minnesota has 10,936 licensed family child care homes and 1,578 child care centers. Thirty-four percent of the child care homes have a license capacity for 10 children; forty-two percent have a license capacity for 12 children; and twenty percent have a license capacity of 14 children. The remaining four percent of the homes specializing in infant and toddler care and are licensed for five to nine children. All the deaths that occurred in family child care homes were licensed for ten or more children.

A majority of the deaths happened to infants sleeping in unsafe sleep situations.

http://rcfcca.com/PDF/ChildMortality...mendations.pdf
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Annalee 11:00 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
How often are legally unlicensed providers inspected?
unlicensed providers are NEVER inspected in TN except from the food program
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Annalee 11:06 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
How often are licensed day cares inspected. When I was licensed in my state I was never inspected. The food program came out twice a year, but the state never did. That was 4 years of being licensed, or registered. I can't remember what Iowa calls it.

I knew once a year when the food program was coming, but the other was a surprise visit. Of course, I knew exactly what time they would come if they did a surprise visit so that wasn't all that much of a surprise.

Day cares 10 miles north were inspected by the state because the local DHS is in that town.

Interestingly, when I was getting business insurance I was asked by our agent if I was licensed. I said no and asked if they wanted me to be. He said they preferred me to be unlicensed because I would have fewer children that way.

ETA: I understand that the food program is a state program, but they were looking at my food prep, not my house.


Kelly
In my state, if you are the highest star in QRIS you get 4 unannounced visits annually plus 1 announced visit from licensing. If you are a 0 star, you get 6 unannounced visits and 1 announced visit. All this on top of quarterly visit from USDA food program, 2 visits per year from health/environment, 1 visit from fire inspector. This is all in addition to the annual mandated assessment that can take 4-6 hours....Yep this is all since QRIS started dictating what/how/when/why for everything providers do from community events to materials in the daycare....
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SquirrellyMama 11:10 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Annalee:
In my state, if you are the highest star in QRIS you get 4 unannounced visits annually plus 1 announced visit from licensing. If you are a 0 star, you get 6 unannounced visits and 1 announced visit. All this on top of quarterly visit from USDA food program, 2 visits per year from health/environment, 1 visit from fire inspector. This is all in addition to the annual mandated assessment that can take 4-6 hours....Yep this is all since QRIS started dictating what/how/when/why for everything providers do from community events to materials in the daycare....
I would think this would increase illegal day cares. Maybe the real answer would be fewer inspections. I'm not saying no inspections, but sometimes less is more.

Kelly
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NeedaVaca 11:12 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Not sure where you got that information but between 2002 and 2012 there were 83 deaths in MN licensed child cares. There were 3 deaths in licensed centers.

Minnesota has 10,936 licensed family child care homes and 1,578 child care centers. Thirty-four percent of the child care homes have a license capacity for 10 children; forty-two percent have a license capacity for 12 children; and twenty percent have a license capacity of 14 children. The remaining four percent of the homes specializing in infant and toddler care and are licensed for five to nine children. All the deaths that occurred in family child care homes were licensed for ten or more children.

A majority of the deaths happened to infants sleeping in unsafe sleep situations.

http://rcfcca.com/PDF/ChildMortality...mendations.pdf
I will have to look for that article. I believe it said 6 infant deaths in 2012, that didn't include toddlers and it was a safe sleep article I had stumbled across. Either way, that was my point, that deaths occur in licensed child care not just unlicensed. The number you give was just way more (over 10 years vs 1) than my 6.
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Annalee 11:14 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
I would think this would increase illegal day cares. Maybe the real answer would be fewer inspections. I'm not saying no inspections, but sometimes less is more.

Kelly
It has increased the number of illegal daycares....there were over 3000 FCC programs in 2001-02 when QRIS started, today there are 819. over 2000 providers went underground and many are keeping as many children as I have in my program....totally illegal, but unless they get turned in the state will NOT check them out!
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NeedaVaca 11:20 AM 01-12-2015
Found that article!

Is was a SIDS article.

It's sad when any child dies no matter where they are. I would be interested to see a breakdown of all of the deaths licensed/vs unlicensed and it would also be interesting to see how much higher the death toll is when they are not in our care. I imagine not in our care would be the highest (family/abusive/boyfriends/mom etc) but that is just purely a guess.
Attached: SIDSProtocolArticle.pdf (371.4 KB) 
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SignMeUp 11:44 AM 01-12-2015
We were told that during the timeframe of the 80-some deaths in child care, that there were 350-400 (don't recall the exact number) 'unsafe sleep' deaths at home.
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Unregistered 11:50 AM 01-12-2015
there is no oversight in my state for unlicensed care, because they don't even know the childcare exists unless a parent were to call and report them violating state law of ratios or for abuse/neglect, ect. I am not unlicensed and the families I have worked with all know that up front.
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Unregistered 11:52 AM 01-12-2015
***meant to say, I AM unlicensed!
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SignMeUp 11:56 AM 01-12-2015
One of the infants who died in 2012, died of an undetected rare heart problem. Apparently the provider was still cited for unsafe sleep practices though.
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nanglgrl 11:59 AM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SquirrellyMama:
How often are licensed day cares inspected. When I was licensed in my state I was never inspected. The food program came out twice a year, but the state never did. That was 4 years of being licensed, or registered. I can't remember what Iowa calls it.

I knew once a year when the food program was coming, but the other was a surprise visit. Of course, I knew exactly what time they would come if they did a surprise visit so that wasn't all that much of a surprise.

Day cares 10 miles north were inspected by the state because the local DHS is in that town.

Interestingly, when I was getting business insurance I was asked by our agent if I was licensed. I said no and asked if they wanted me to be. He said they preferred me to be unlicensed because I would have fewer children that way.

ETA: I understand that the food program is a state program, but they were looking at my food prep, not my house.


Kelly
I'm a registered home daycare in Iowa. It used to be we were never inspected but now we are inspected every year and it is completely unannounced. I think 2014 was the first year 100% of registered home daycares are required to be inspected but I've been inspected annually for the last 3 years and all at different times of the year. I've gotten 100% on all of them except the first that was during a remodel and were things that just couldn't be helped.
It will eventually be the rule that any home receiving state funds will have unannounced inspections and the providers will be required to complete training hours.
All that it's done in my opinion, since it's still legal to be an unlicenced/ unregistered home is make more providers become unlicensed/unregistered. There are at least 4x the amount of unlicensed/unregistered in my area as licensed/registered.
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Blackcat31 12:11 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
Found that article!

Is was a SIDS article.

It's sad when any child dies no matter where they are. I would be interested to see a breakdown of all of the deaths licensed/vs unlicensed and it would also be interesting to see how much higher the death toll is when they are not in our care. I imagine not in our care would be the highest (family/abusive/boyfriends/mom etc) but that is just purely a guess.
The article was written by a licensor in one county of our state. Many of the statistics she quoted were linked (some directly) to the report I posted.

I wasn't saying your info was wrong.... just that I read different statistics/numbers but either way, NO child should die in child care due to negligent unsafe sleep practices.

As for the number of kids that die in other settings, it would be interesting to see the numbers there..... but I suppose there isn't really a good way to track that info. I think Nan has posted some statistics before about the family/abuse/boyfriends etc deaths and I DO think more kids die in the care of their parents than in child care for sure.
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Cozy_Kids_Childcare 12:14 PM 01-12-2015
I live in Virginia and have an licensed exempt daycare. I never get inspected. We have hundreds and hundreds of ads on criaglist everyday from your regular everyday fly by night providers. They charge 90$ a week and probably half or more don't have an idea about regulations. (I used my college English papers as a way to research every single regulation they have for home daycares.) They are certainly over numbers to be able to live off of that amount. I'm allowed 5 kids not including my own but can't have over 16pts without an assistant. I'm not licensed because they require you to have cribs for each infant as we are not allowed to use pack-n-play for naps. I do not have enough space for cribs until my garage is finished or we move. I can tell you that here people can careless if your licensed or not. It's all about how much you charge. I am too scared to even consider going over my numbers because anything can happen. I worry about a fire. I could toss a load of laundry in the dryer during nap and it catch fire or lord forbid we have a severe tornado outbreak again. I also have a neighbor that certainly would call and report me if I ever did go over my numbers. She watches and counts heads every morning. I try to run my daycare how I would want the daycare my daughter went to would be ran. Parents will leave their kids with anyone for the right price is what I have learned in my 4-years.
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Blackcat31 12:15 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Annalee:
It has increased the number of illegal daycares....there were over 3000 FCC programs in 2001-02 when QRIS started, today there are 819. over 2000 providers went underground and many are keeping as many children as I have in my program....totally illegal, but unless they get turned in the state will NOT check them out!
Since most the families in my state do receive some sort of assistance for their child care costs, they must use a licensed provider to use the funds so that alone decreases the number of illegal providers.

I think California (?) has a daily fine ($200 per day) for illegally unlicensed child care providers.

For licensed child care providers in my state there is a fine PER violation if you are caught over ratios or operating against policies. My state (my county for sure) is really good about checking into ANY reports of providers (both licensed and unlicensed) operating illegally.
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Annalee 12:20 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Since most the families in my state do receive some sort of assistance for their child care costs, they must use a licensed provider to use the funds so that alone decreases the number of illegal providers.

I think California (?) has a daily fine ($200 per day) for illegally unlicensed child care providers.

For licensed child care providers in my state there is a fine PER violation if you are caught over ratios or operating against policies. My state (my county for sure) is really good about checking into ANY reports of providers (both licensed and unlicensed) operating illegally.
Licensed providers are fines per violation but I think an unregistered daycare has to be caught twice before being fined but rarely are they caught the first time.. Unregistered homes can receive state assistance but it is considerably less than a licensed provider would receive.
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LysesKids 12:26 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Annalee:
In my state, if you are the highest star in QRIS you get 4 unannounced visits annually plus 1 announced visit from licensing. If you are a 0 star, you get 6 unannounced visits and 1 announced visit. All this on top of quarterly visit from USDA food program, 2 visits per year from health/environment, 1 visit from fire inspector. This is all in addition to the annual mandated assessment that can take 4-6 hours....Yep this is all since QRIS started dictating what/how/when/why for everything providers do from community events to materials in the daycare....
Because my house was a new set, I had electrical engineers, fire dept and city inspect before they could even clear me to move in, then the community had to approve me doing childcare for 4 babies because I rent private property... that was all before the food program got involved; I take the free trainings they offer and because I am respite care for Foster babies the state has to keep background /fingerprint/safety checks up to date just like a licensed home. I wanted TN to License me, but in a way I am grateful I don't have to do the stars program
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NeedaVaca 12:28 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
The article was written by a licensor in one county of our state. Many of the statistics she quoted were linked (some directly) to the report I posted.

I wasn't saying your info was wrong.... just that I read different statistics/numbers but either way, NO child should die in child care due to negligent unsafe sleep practices.

As for the number of kids that die in other settings, it would be interesting to see the numbers there..... but I suppose there isn't really a good way to track that info. I think Nan has posted some statistics before about the family/abuse/boyfriends etc deaths and I DO think more kids die in the care of their parents than in child care for sure.
Oh I didn't take it that way I'm AWFUL with numbers/statics so I very well could have been wrong lol. I don't see any good way to get real statics anyway...There are just too many variables. Licensed vs unlicensed then you have to do it state by state and look at how each state handles inspections, how many per year, how many unannounced, ratios-do providers have too many kids and they can't handle those numbers, daytime care vs 24/7...I'm sure the list could go on and on.
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SignMeUp 12:51 PM 01-12-2015
Regarding only sleep deaths, the SID Center here says that about 20% of deaths occur in child care. No one seems to know why more seem to have occurred in home daycare than centers.
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Blackcat31 12:54 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by SignMeUp:
Regarding only sleep deaths, the SID Center here says that about 20% of deaths occur in child care. No one seems to know why more seem to have occurred in home daycare than centers.
They also make mention of the provider working alone.

I bet the numbers are different for centers because there are more staff and more staff can sometimes, increase accountability as well as notice things a ton faster than a provider working alone..kwim?
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Annalee 12:59 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by LysesKids:
Because my house was a new set, I had electrical engineers, fire dept and city inspect before they could even clear me to move in, then the community had to approve me doing childcare for 4 babies because I rent private property... that was all before the food program got involved; I take the free trainings they offer and because I am respite care for Foster babies the state has to keep background /fingerprint/safety checks up to date just like a licensed home. I wanted TN to License me, but in a way I am grateful I don't have to do the stars program
Like I said many times before, I have rolled with change so I am in for the long haul, but licensed child care is NOT what I would encourage anyone to enter as a new provider in my state.
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Blackcat31 01:09 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by NeedaVaca:
Oh I didn't take it that way I'm AWFUL with numbers/statics so I very well could have been wrong lol. I don't see any good way to get real statics anyway...There are just too many variables. Licensed vs unlicensed then you have to do it state by state and look at how each state handles inspections, how many per year, how many unannounced, ratios-do providers have too many kids and they can't handle those numbers, daytime care vs 24/7...I'm sure the list could go on and on.
I agree...

I'm sure I will catch flack for this but honestly, I think there needs to be one set of regulations that ALL states follow.

I think there should only be two options: Licensed or unlicensed...

...and I think unlicensed should not be able to provide care to more than one related family.

This would help put a stop to many of the illegal child cares out there AND would help parents understand what the rules/regulations are.

Sadly many parents have no idea what ratios are for their state, what licensing requirements are or even if their provider is licensed. I state that I am, provide my license number on my web-site etc yet have never once in two decades of child care been asked if I was or wasn't licensed. I could have made those numbers up and I don't think a parent would know or even know how to find out if I did.
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SignMeUp 01:11 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
They also make mention of the provider working alone.

I bet the numbers are different for centers because there are more staff and more staff can sometimes, increase accountability as well as notice things a ton faster than a provider working alone..kwim?
I have heard speculation at meetings that included both FCC and center staff, that maybe it's because babies don't all sleep soundly at centers, because they are either in the same room as the active & awake infants, or they are in a room that is crib-to-crib. I don't know that it's one of the things that they "know" or if it's pure speculation, that it may be during the most sound sleep that some infants may "forget" to breathe.
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SignMeUp 02:00 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I agree...

I'm sure I will catch flack for this but honestly, I think there needs to be one set of regulations that ALL states follow.

I think there should only be two options: Licensed or unlicensed...

...and I think unlicensed should not be able to provide care to more than one related family.

This would help put a stop to many of the illegal child cares out there AND would help parents understand what the rules/regulations are.

Sadly many parents have no idea what ratios are for their state, what licensing requirements are or even if their provider is licensed. I state that I am, provide my license number on my web-site etc yet have never once in two decades of child care been asked if I was or wasn't licensed. I could have made those numbers up and I don't think a parent would know or even know how to find out if I did.
Me either. My license is posted on my door, but no one ever looks. I always flip through all of the things we are required to post when parents interview, but to my knowledge, those things become invisible shortly thereafter

Only problem with the idea of having the licensed/unlicensed go nation-wide is the enforcement. Around here, they don't enforce as far as I can tell.
It's related to the reasons that I think the paperwork has gone to a ridiculous level - they could just enforce the rules they already have and save themselves (and us) the trouble.
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Cat Herder 03:51 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I agree...

I'm sure I will catch flack for this but honestly, I think there needs to be one set of regulations that ALL states follow.

I think there should only be two options: Licensed or unlicensed...

...and I think unlicensed should not be able to provide care to more than one related family.

This would help put a stop to many of the illegal child cares out there AND would help parents understand what the rules/regulations are.

Sadly many parents have no idea what ratios are for their state, what licensing requirements are or even if their provider is licensed. I state that I am, provide my license number on my web-site etc yet have never once in two decades of child care been asked if I was or wasn't licensed. I could have made those numbers up and I don't think a parent would know or even know how to find out if I did.
No flack here. I think one set of standards would go a long way to solving our problems.
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nannyde 04:29 PM 01-12-2015
Did you know that Federal guidelines for states accepting federal dollars for state funded kids are changing to not allow unlicensed or unregistered providers to receive the subsidy. Iowa just announced that they were not going to approve unregistered homes for funding.

It males me suspicious that they are tying this to deaths when really the state will not get the federal dollars if they don't comply. They won't get ANY of the block grant funding if they don't comply.

In Iowa they pay about $15 bucks a day to unlicensed homes as opposed to about $25 for lucensed. It's a huge savings to pay the unregistered. Instead of requiring registration they just cut off the unregistered from the state funding.

I can't see in this report where they say 51 kids and the time frame they kept the data. Is there a video?
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nannyde 04:36 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I agree...

I'm sure I will catch flack for this but honestly, I think there needs to be one set of regulations that ALL states follow.

I think there should only be two options: Licensed or unlicensed...

...and I think unlicensed should not be able to provide care to more than one related family.

This would help put a stop to many of the illegal child cares out there AND would help parents understand what the rules/regulations are.

Sadly many parents have no idea what ratios are for their state, what licensing requirements are or even if their provider is licensed. I state that I am, provide my license number on my web-site etc yet have never once in two decades of child care been asked if I was or wasn't licensed. I could have made those numbers up and I don't think a parent would know or even know how to find out if I did.
I don't. I have read all 50 states and they are SO different. They are set to meet the needs of their people.

I think, in this day and age, where moms can go online and research ANYTHING child related and join groups of like minded people on every single child rearing practice... they can easily research child care regulations.

If they can spout African Tribes extended breastfeeding practices, deaths and injuries in circumcision, Dr Sears 7 B's in attachment parenting, anti vax research, car seat installation guidelines, etc. They can research their states daycare regs before they have a kid.
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NightOwl 05:59 PM 01-12-2015
Here in Alabama, the licensing dept is a joke. I was last visited 20 months ago and haven't seen that lady since. That was for a scheduled licensing appointment. Yes, it's nice to not have them breathing down my neck, but no, it's not good practice. In my County, we have ONE licensing agent for FCC. ONE for the entire County. Ridiculous.

I'm in total agreement with the ladies who say enforcement of current standards is far more important than creating new ones. If no one is coming by to see if they're being implemented, then it doesn't matter how many new ones the state comes up with.

I always operated within the standards because it's been drilled into my head for 13+ years. It's just in my nature now to do things by the book. But I can only speak for myself. There are dozens in my area that are so subpar, it's disgusting. And they get away with it because there's ONE licensing agent here.
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Febby 06:55 PM 01-12-2015
So Virginia wants to tighten and expand regulations for legally licensed and legally unlicensed daycares due deaths in illegally unlicensed daycares? That's supposed to solve safety issues in illegally unlicensed daycares how...?
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daycare 07:18 PM 01-12-2015
Originally Posted by Febby:
So Virginia wants to tighten and expand regulations for legally licensed and legally unlicensed daycares due deaths in illegally unlicensed daycares? That's supposed to solve safety issues in illegally unlicensed daycares how...?
this was exactly my thought...... Great you are making it harder for those already following the rules. But they are not doing anything about the illegal operations.

Why not?
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Play Care 03:59 AM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by Febby:
So Virginia wants to tighten and expand regulations for legally licensed and legally unlicensed daycares due deaths in illegally unlicensed daycares? That's supposed to solve safety issues in illegally unlicensed daycares how...?
Pretty much what I was trying to say...
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Play Care 04:02 AM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I don't. I have read all 50 states and they are SO different. They are set to meet the needs of their people.

I think, in this day and age, where moms can go online and research ANYTHING child related and join groups of like minded people on every single child rearing practice... they can easily research child care regulations.

If they can spout African Tribes extended breastfeeding practices, deaths and injuries in circumcision, Dr Sears 7 B's in attachment parenting, anti vax research, car seat installation guidelines, etc. They can research their states daycare regs before they have a kid.


It shocks me that parents don't bother to look into regulations (well, until they are unhappy with their provider and want to turn them in )

I do think states do a HORRIBLE job educating parents - they want providers to do it and parents don't want to hear it from the "sitter"
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LysesKids 05:10 AM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by Annalee:
Like I said many times before, I have rolled with change so I am in for the long haul, but licensed child care is NOT what I would encourage anyone to enter as a new provider in my state.
I hear that... it's why I am sorta glad they didn't fully license me lol. Remember, I live less than 3 hrs from you.

Of course a lot of parents don't like that I have written policies, set rates etc etc and I'm not just a lowly, under the table sitter; I'm a professional home that is entering my 15th year and it's groups like this that help make me who I am today
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Cradle2crayons 06:04 AM 01-13-2015
I'm legally unlicensed. I don't have any inspections. The state doesn't regulate legally unlicensed here at all. I guess they would if there was a complaint.

I'm able to accept vouchers even though I'm legally unlicensed.

The reason I chose to remain legally unlicensed is because if I were licensed, my ratios wouldn't change at all.
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NightOwl 06:45 AM 01-13-2015
We don't have the option to be legally unlicensed. Do most states have this? I read about it often on the forum. Here, even one child on a regular basis and over 4 hours at a time would get you labeled as an illegal daycare.
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LysesKids 07:41 AM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by Cradle2crayons:
I'm legally unlicensed. I don't have any inspections. The state doesn't regulate legally unlicensed here at all. I guess they would if there was a complaint.

I'm able to accept vouchers even though I'm legally unlicensed.

The reason I chose to remain legally unlicensed is because if I were licensed, my ratios wouldn't change at all.
Mine wouldn't either because I work with babes under 24 months... I do have oversight because I can take vouchers/offer food program/ do foster respite care
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Cat Herder 02:40 PM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I don't. I have read all 50 states and they are SO different. They are set to meet the needs of their people.

I think, in this day and age, where moms can go online and research ANYTHING child related and join groups of like minded people on every single child rearing practice... they can easily research child care regulations.

If they can spout African Tribes extended breastfeeding practices, deaths and injuries in circumcision, Dr Sears 7 B's in attachment parenting, anti vax research, car seat installation guidelines, etc. They can research their states daycare regs before they have a kid.
Excellent points. I wonder if standard regs would not level things out, though. Some states regs are so over the top, others seem more of an after-thought. I guess my hope would be for something more reasonably in the middle...
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daycare 03:04 PM 01-13-2015
don't cyber smack me, but I think it has a lot to do with the Adult providing the care. I think there are not enough restrictions or requirements on the providers to even apply for a license.

Here in CA we are heavily diverse, so you get a lot of people who come from another country, can't speak the language, does not understand our laws, but they care for children. THen we wonder why the kids go off to kinder without the ability to speak any english at all.

I see this all the time here. My good friend, she is from the same country as me, don't get me wrong, I love her. But she is a good example of someone who should not be running a daycare. Well in my eyes.

she can hardly speak English, the kids run a muck, watch tv all day. She did not even graduate from high school. I met her years ago when I came to North Cali to get my license. It was in the orientation that I met her.

I was so embarrassed of the questions she was asking. She actually asked the licensing instructor this:

(we were talking about capacity allowed within your daycare)
She says:
"I have 5 kids all under the age of 5, so I can only take one kid by myself?" The instructor said yes that is correct, the ratio is 1 to 6, unless 2 of the kids are enrolled in school, then you can have 8 by yourself. My friend replies, well what if I just let them play in the backyard all day? Can I take more kids?"............WHAT THE WHAT?? She got a license.


This was a few years back, she is closed now, but in the two years that she was open she would call me every week with all of these crazy stories and questions. I was so surprised she could even get people in. She was closed down by the state after a few kids were hurt under her care. I don't know if that is the whole story, but that is all I know.

It just seems like anyone can open shop here in CA and then when things go wrong, the good people take the hit for it..........
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NightOwl 03:52 PM 01-13-2015
Here's my two cents. Take it or leave it. I believe you should have to be licensed to have even a single child under your care, and only be allowed one related child if you don't have a license. I never understood why someone could not be licensed if they had less than 3 children or less than 5 children, etc. Do fewer numbers make it Ok to not follow standards?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding what it means to be unlicensed? Idk. We don't have that option in Alabama, so I don't know exactly what it means to be legally unlicensed. Does it mean the state has absolutely no concern for how you operate? Does it mean you have different standards from licensed providers? Anyone care to enlighten me?

Also, one single set of standards for every state makes perfect sense to me. I'm 5 miles from the Tennessee state line, so my standards are vastly different from someone who lives 5 miles from me. THAT makes no sense. Should the children at my childcare get better or worse care/standards than children 5 miles away? 500 miles away? Why does it matter where we live?? All children are equal so the standards for their care should be equal.
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AuntTami 04:22 PM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
don't cyber smack me, but I think it has a lot to do with the Adult providing the care. I think there are not enough restrictions or requirements on the providers to even apply for a license.

Here in CA we are heavily diverse, so you get a lot of people who come from another country, can't speak the language, does not understand our laws, but they care for children. THen we wonder why the kids go off to kinder without the ability to speak any english at all.

I see this all the time here. My good friend, she is from the same country as me, don't get me wrong, I love her. But she is a good example of someone who should not be running a daycare. Well in my eyes.

she can hardly speak English, the kids run a muck, watch tv all day. She did not even graduate from high school. I met her years ago when I came to North Cali to get my license. It was in the orientation that I met her.

I was so embarrassed of the questions she was asking. She actually asked the licensing instructor this:

(we were talking about capacity allowed within your daycare)
She says:
"I have 5 kids all under the age of 5, so I can only take one kid by myself?" The instructor said yes that is correct, the ratio is 1 to 6, unless 2 of the kids are enrolled in school, then you can have 8 by yourself. My friend replies, well what if I just let them play in the backyard all day? Can I take more kids?"............WHAT THE WHAT?? She got a license.


This was a few years back, she is closed now, but in the two years that she was open she would call me every week with all of these crazy stories and questions. I was so surprised she could even get people in. She was closed down by the state after a few kids were hurt under her care. I don't know if that is the whole story, but that is all I know.

It just seems like anyone can open shop here in CA and then when things go wrong, the good people take the hit for it..........

Thank you. This is what I was trying to convey in my original reply. There ARE some of us out there who are legally unlicensed, and who run a tight ship and everything is up to code and standards. And then there are those that just let the kids watch tv, and feed them chicken nuggets.

Like I said, "unlicensed" care isn't the problem. It's the ILLEGALLY unlicensed daycares that are the issue. Now, I understand that you can't fix one without getting rid of the other, so when it comes down to it and I'm required to be licensed, I'll do that because I enjoy my profession. However, many of the illegal homes won't be doing that, I'm sure, which will be beneficial for everyone, well except them.
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Febby 05:05 PM 01-13-2015
I think the hardest part is actually catching the illegal providers. It's not like inspectors can just pull their names off a list and go check on them. Either someone has to report them or something has to go wrong that would draw attention to them (lost child, injury, death, etc.) in order for one to actually be caught.
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daycare 05:21 PM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by Febby:
I think the hardest part is actually catching the illegal providers. It's not like inspectors can just pull their names off a list and go check on them. Either someone has to report them or something has to go wrong that would draw attention to them (lost child, injury, death, etc.) in order for one to actually be caught.
I see illegals all the time listing on craigs list. I asked about this at a training I was at and they said exactly what you said.

they can't go out there without probable cause and they don't have the man hours to have someone investigate those type of setups.

I call baloney. they spend so much frivolous money, why can't they create a frad dept.??

They also need to consider making the consequences much more harsh than they are.
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Febby 07:10 PM 01-13-2015
Originally Posted by daycare:
I see illegals all the time listing on craigs list. I asked about this at a training I was at and they said exactly what you said.

they can't go out there without probable cause and they don't have the man hours to have someone investigate those type of setups.

I call baloney. they spend so much frivolous money, why can't they create a frad dept.??

They also need to consider making the consequences much more harsh than they are.
I don't see many listings on Craigslist here that look illegal (although I did see one the other day where the entire ad was "$60 a kid" with no other info...), but that may be because my state's licensing has a habit of posting ads containing the highlights of the family home regulations.

I do think that most states' penalties for running illegally unlicensed daycares are not harsh enough to adequately discourage people from deciding to run one anyway.

And I really do not see the point in any state adding additional regulations if they can't even properly enforce the ones they already have.
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NightOwl 08:37 AM 01-14-2015
Craigslist here is a hotbed of illegals. If we had more than one licensing agent, it would be crazy easy to bust these people.
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Tags:child abuse prevention, exemption, illegal daycare, illegal providers, religion - in daycare, unlicensed daycare, unlicensed providers
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