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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Small Claims Court
Katierue 07:17 PM 11-20-2014
Hello!
I need some advice, and honestly also to vent.
I had a family enroll August 5th. The child attended until August 18th, but I did not hear from the family for another week that they were terminating enrollment effective immediately.
However, my contract and handbook clearly state that ONE MONTH notice is required, and that tuition is due for the month regardless of attendance. I attempted to contact the family several times, and finally informed them that I would be filing in Small Claims.
Today was court. I had my email exchanges with the family, my contract and handbook, etc. I was giving the family "credit" for the week of the 18th towards the one month notice, so I was only asking for 3 weeks notice. Also, late fees would have totaled $1000 as of today, but I was not including that in my claim.
I LOST.
The judge said that I could not require 1 month notice. In my area, one month is industry standard. Some smaller programs may have 2 weeks, but I am pretty sure this judge would not have respected that either. The judge did not even read my contract or other evidence. Never even looked at it. Just said I was wrong.
I am shocked. Has anyone here been to small claims? What happened? My mom is a lawyer and helped me write my contract, and she was beyond shocked that I lost.
And to make it even more unpleasant, this horrible woman taunted me as we left the court saying "Was it worth it? Huh? Was it?" She also told me she filed a complaint with licensing against me, so now I have a licensing visit to look forward to.
I am so pissed. We all work so hard, and so many families don't want to pay even when they have signed the contract. And I thought my contract was my protection!
Any advice or curses on these people would be appreciated!
I need some advice, and honestly also to vent.
I had a family enroll August 5th. The child attended until August 18th, but I did not hear from the family for another week that they were terminating enrollment effective immediately.
However, my contract and handbook clearly state that ONE MONTH notice is required, and that tuition is due for the month regardless of attendance. I attempted to contact the family several times, and finally informed them that I would be filing in Small Claims.
Today was court. I had my email exchanges with the family, my contract and handbook, etc. I was giving the family "credit" for the week of the 18th towards the one month notice, so I was only asking for 3 weeks notice. Also, late fees would have totaled $1000 as of today, but I was not including that in my claim.
I LOST.
The judge said that I could not require 1 month notice. In my area, one month is industry standard. Some smaller programs may have 2 weeks, but I am pretty sure this judge would not have respected that either. The judge did not even read my contract or other evidence. Never even looked at it. Just said I was wrong.
I am shocked. Has anyone here been to small claims? What happened? My mom is a lawyer and helped me write my contract, and she was beyond shocked that I lost.
And to make it even more unpleasant, this horrible woman taunted me as we left the court saying "Was it worth it? Huh? Was it?" She also told me she filed a complaint with licensing against me, so now I have a licensing visit to look forward to.
I am so pissed. We all work so hard, and so many families don't want to pay even when they have signed the contract. And I thought my contract was my protection!
Any advice or curses on these people would be appreciated!
Wednesday! 11:22 PM 11-20-2014
Wow. Who is he to dictate the terms of your mutually agreed upon contact? Did you have a lawyer with you? I would seriously go again, this time with legal representation. And have the cost of your legal fees added into the judgement. AND the late fees. What a pos judge....
Play Care 03:13 AM 11-21-2014
I don't know the legality of it, but I have heard that you can only go to small claims for time actually WORKED and money OWED. So if they attended but didn't pay and then left, you could go after them for that. But that typically judges will not award the additional late fees, notice period, etc. I believe some providers have had luck getting those things - but I just seem to recall reading that it's not a given (I want to say it may have been a Tom Copeland blog post, but can't recall)
Now, if it IS legal and the judge went against the law, I would report HIM to the state board and perhaps have providers in your area start a letter writing campaign against him.
Now, if it IS legal and the judge went against the law, I would report HIM to the state board and perhaps have providers in your area start a letter writing campaign against him.
DaveA 03:40 AM 11-21-2014
IMHO Small claims is to the legal system what Taco Bell is to Mexican food. My experience with them (both me personally and as when helping others while doing a social service job) has not been impressive.
That sucks.
That sucks.
CraftyMom 05:07 AM 11-21-2014
I think it depends on the judge. Can you appeal? They agreed to and signed your contract.
I took a family to court, same circumstance, but I only require 2 weeks notice, and this was for 2 kids. They did not carry out or pay the 2 weeks notice. I won, but I did not get the late fees.
They also went to licensing and complained, pure retaliation. You will get a visit. At least she warned you though, so you can be sure all your ducks are in a row and you won't be surprised when licensing is at your door!
I took a family to court, same circumstance, but I only require 2 weeks notice, and this was for 2 kids. They did not carry out or pay the 2 weeks notice. I won, but I did not get the late fees.
They also went to licensing and complained, pure retaliation. You will get a visit. At least she warned you though, so you can be sure all your ducks are in a row and you won't be surprised when licensing is at your door!
midaycare 05:21 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by DaveArmour:
IMHO Small claims is to the legal system what Taco Bell is to Mexican food. My experience with them (both me personally and as when helping others while doing a social service job) has not been impressive.
That sucks.
And now I want Taco Bell. Yum! IMHO Small claims is to the legal system what Taco Bell is to Mexican food. My experience with them (both me personally and as when helping others while doing a social service job) has not been impressive.
That sucks.
To OP, I'm sorry. I wish every judge was Judge Judy. Life would be better.
Katierue 06:34 AM 11-21-2014
I am just so confused as to what to do now! If we can't enforce our contracts, why bother having one?! I feel like I have heard so many times how the contract won the day in small claims, but then that was not what happened to me. If one month notice is the industry standard, how come it doesn't hold up in court?! I just need to figure out how to protect myself in the future. But the judge did not even read my contract, so I can't understand how he could say it was not enforceable. And, the woman signed it! Even if it stated that all parents must drop off children wearing only red shoes, if she signed it, why can't I enforce it?! GGGGrrrrrrrr.
CraftyMom 06:40 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by Katierue:
I am just so confused as to what to do now! If we can't enforce our contracts, why bother having one?! I feel like I have heard so many times how the contract won the day in small claims, but then that was not what happened to me. If one month notice is the industry standard, how come it doesn't hold up in court?! I just need to figure out how to protect myself in the future. But the judge did not even read my contract, so I can't understand how he could say it was not enforceable. And, the woman signed it! Even if it stated that all parents must drop off children wearing only red shoes, if she signed it, why can't I enforce it?! GGGGrrrrrrrr.
If you can appeal then I would definitely do that. And I would add in lost wages and court fees. I didn't get my late fees, but they did have to pay court fees, wages for the day and interest (which I didn't even ask for). Also, my judge was a real jerk but I still won.I am just so confused as to what to do now! If we can't enforce our contracts, why bother having one?! I feel like I have heard so many times how the contract won the day in small claims, but then that was not what happened to me. If one month notice is the industry standard, how come it doesn't hold up in court?! I just need to figure out how to protect myself in the future. But the judge did not even read my contract, so I can't understand how he could say it was not enforceable. And, the woman signed it! Even if it stated that all parents must drop off children wearing only red shoes, if she signed it, why can't I enforce it?! GGGGrrrrrrrr.
I think it was that specific judge. How can they not even LOOK at your evidence? What does your mom say, being a lawyer?
midaycare 06:49 AM 11-21-2014
I think a lot of judges would probably not look at the notice period, in this case one month. Any parent can easily say, "I felt my child was in danger there and pulled them out." And then what is a judge going to do? Punish them for trying to give their child a safe environment?
I'm not saying that this is what happened in this case, but I do think most judges don't look at the notice period.
I'm not saying that this is what happened in this case, but I do think most judges don't look at the notice period.
Thriftylady 06:50 AM 11-21-2014
I am not sure on the court thing. But I would call licensing and tell them what she said to you and that if they would like you can mail them copies of the court papers to show she was mad at you. They may likely still come out, but will likely just check your paperwork and such like a normal visit, ask you about it and accept it for what it is.
CraftyMom 07:59 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by midaycare:
I think a lot of judges would probably not look at the notice period, in this case one month. Any parent can easily say, "I felt my child was in danger there and pulled them out." And then what is a judge going to do? Punish them for trying to give their child a safe environment?
I'm not saying that this is what happened in this case, but I do think most judges don't look at the notice period.
Nope, not the case. In my case the parents pulled early and didn't fulfill the 2 weeks. They tried in court to say "I didn't feel comfortable sending my children there, so we decided not to go back". The judge said "and that is good. If you felt uncomfortable then as a parent you SHOULD remove them. However, you signed a contract that states 2 weeks notice must be given. Payment is due regardless of attendance during these 2 weeks. So yes, you have the right to stop going, but you also owe the entire two weeks even though they didn't attend"I think a lot of judges would probably not look at the notice period, in this case one month. Any parent can easily say, "I felt my child was in danger there and pulled them out." And then what is a judge going to do? Punish them for trying to give their child a safe environment?
I'm not saying that this is what happened in this case, but I do think most judges don't look at the notice period.
I'm not sure if things like this vary from state to state, but I wouldn't think so. The judicial system is the same.
So yes, the parent can easily say that, but if they signed a contract saying they will pay regardless of attendance, then they owe the money
I wanted to just say, the parents "not feeling comfortable sending their kids to me" in my case was a bunch of bull. They just didn't want to pay. They got mad because I put my foot down, they threw a fit and never came back, then went to licensing with false complaints. I think judges realize parents try to say things like this to avoid paying but they see right through them. (most judges anyway)
Unregistered 08:05 AM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by CraftyMom:
Nope, not the case. In my case the parents pulled early and didn't fulfill the 2 weeks. They tried in court to say "I didn't feel comfortable sending my children there, so we decided not to go back". The judge said "and that is good. If you felt uncomfortable then as a parent you SHOULD remove them. However, you signed a contract that states 2 weeks notice must be given. Payment is due regardless of attendance during these 2 weeks. So yes, you have the right to stop going, but you also owe the entire two weeks even though they didn't attend"
I'm not sure if things like this vary from state to state, but I wouldn't think so. The judicial system is the same.
So yes, the parent can easily say that, but if they signed a contract saying they will pay regardless of attendance, then they owe the money
I wanted to just say, the parents "not feeling comfortable sending their kids to me" in my case was a bunch of bull. They just didn't want to pay. They got mad because I put my foot down, they threw a fit and never came back, then went to licensing with false complaints. I think judges realize parents try to say things like this to avoid paying but they see right through them. (most judges anyway)
That sounds like a sensible judge. Not all are. Here, it is still much of an entitled old boys club. Women who "keep kids" are at the bottom of the food chain. Contract, schmontract.Nope, not the case. In my case the parents pulled early and didn't fulfill the 2 weeks. They tried in court to say "I didn't feel comfortable sending my children there, so we decided not to go back". The judge said "and that is good. If you felt uncomfortable then as a parent you SHOULD remove them. However, you signed a contract that states 2 weeks notice must be given. Payment is due regardless of attendance during these 2 weeks. So yes, you have the right to stop going, but you also owe the entire two weeks even though they didn't attend"
I'm not sure if things like this vary from state to state, but I wouldn't think so. The judicial system is the same.
So yes, the parent can easily say that, but if they signed a contract saying they will pay regardless of attendance, then they owe the money
I wanted to just say, the parents "not feeling comfortable sending their kids to me" in my case was a bunch of bull. They just didn't want to pay. They got mad because I put my foot down, they threw a fit and never came back, then went to licensing with false complaints. I think judges realize parents try to say things like this to avoid paying but they see right through them. (most judges anyway)
Annalee 08:58 AM 11-21-2014
I have never been to court for daycare issues, but have been told that providers daycare contracts may/may not stand up in court depending on the judge....guess this post proves that theory correct! 
Shell 10:40 AM 11-21-2014
I would ask your mom how to proceed with an appeal. Is it possible the judge read your contract prior to today? Did you have to submit it, or did the parent submit it before the hearing? This seems a little suspect to me- I would agree that if the parent signed the contract, then they would be expected to follow it. However, I'm not sure if legally your contract would hold up in your state.
MyAngels 11:03 AM 11-21-2014
I wonder if you could send it to a collection agency? Maybe ask your mom about that.
Meeko 01:00 PM 11-21-2014
This is why I use a collection agency!
Absolutely zero cost to me in any form. No having to see the parents, no time off work etc.
I just sit back and let them go after them.
Absolutely zero cost to me in any form. No having to see the parents, no time off work etc.
I just sit back and let them go after them.
Meeko 01:04 PM 11-21-2014
This is why I use a collection agency!
Absolutely zero cost to me in any form. No having to see the parents, no time of work etc.
I just sit back and let them go after them.
After an account has been turned over to them, I cannot legally accept money from the parents. They MUST pay the collection agency....including the 40% agency fee. Most parents don't want to risk getting calls at work from collections etc or the chance of a 40% mark-up, They usually just pay up with the threat of collections.
Absolutely zero cost to me in any form. No having to see the parents, no time of work etc.
I just sit back and let them go after them.
After an account has been turned over to them, I cannot legally accept money from the parents. They MUST pay the collection agency....including the 40% agency fee. Most parents don't want to risk getting calls at work from collections etc or the chance of a 40% mark-up, They usually just pay up with the threat of collections.
Katierue 01:48 PM 11-21-2014
Originally Posted by Meeko:
This is why I use a collection agency!
Absolutely zero cost to me in any form. No having to see the parents, no time of work etc.
I just sit back and let them go after them.
After an account has been turned over to them, I cannot legally accept money from the parents. They MUST pay the collection agency....including the 40% agency fee. Most parents don't want to risk getting calls at work from collections etc or the chance of a 40% mark-up, They usually just pay up with the threat of collections.
What agency do you use? How did you get set up with them? What are the costs? How do you prove the person owes you? Sorry for so many questions, but this is a great idea!This is why I use a collection agency!
Absolutely zero cost to me in any form. No having to see the parents, no time of work etc.
I just sit back and let them go after them.
After an account has been turned over to them, I cannot legally accept money from the parents. They MUST pay the collection agency....including the 40% agency fee. Most parents don't want to risk getting calls at work from collections etc or the chance of a 40% mark-up, They usually just pay up with the threat of collections.
And in answer to many who asked, in CA the plaintiff does NOT have the right to appeal, just the defendant does. BS!!!
Meeko 03:25 PM 11-21-2014
I use Advanced Credit Management in Orem Utah. They are local to me, but the last time I spoke with their office, they have clients all over the country.
It has been years since I had to use them, but they were GREAT. Very friendly and easy to work with. I gave them copies of all the paperwork (contract, any receipts etc etc.) and they took it from there. No cost to me AT ALL. Here's how it works.....
They add 40% to the bill as soon as the account is turned over to them. It is then illegal for me to accept any payment from the parent. They HAVE to pay the collection agency or I become liable for the 40% commission fee.
They do the chasing/calling etc. If needs be, they go to court, get garnishments etc etc......and the parent becomes liable for all legal fees.
Once the parent starts to pay, the agency gets 40% and I get 60% of each payment, until we are both paid in full. So sometimes the money trickles in, but that's better than nothing.
They work hard because THEY don't get paid until the parents coughs up the cash.
It has been years since I had to use them, but they were GREAT. Very friendly and easy to work with. I gave them copies of all the paperwork (contract, any receipts etc etc.) and they took it from there. No cost to me AT ALL. Here's how it works.....
They add 40% to the bill as soon as the account is turned over to them. It is then illegal for me to accept any payment from the parent. They HAVE to pay the collection agency or I become liable for the 40% commission fee.
They do the chasing/calling etc. If needs be, they go to court, get garnishments etc etc......and the parent becomes liable for all legal fees.
Once the parent starts to pay, the agency gets 40% and I get 60% of each payment, until we are both paid in full. So sometimes the money trickles in, but that's better than nothing.
They work hard because THEY don't get paid until the parents coughs up the cash.
Katierue 03:44 PM 11-21-2014
This sounds fantastic! What did you need to show them to prove the person owed you?
Originally Posted by Meeko:
I use Advanced Credit Management in Orem Utah. They are local to me, but the last time I spoke with their office, they have clients all over the country.
It has been years since I had to use them, but they were GREAT. Very friendly and easy to work with. I gave them copies of all the paperwork (contract, any receipts etc etc.) and they took it from there. No cost to me AT ALL. Here's how it works.....
They add 40% to the bill as soon as the account is turned over to them. It is then illegal for me to accept any payment from the parent. They HAVE to pay the collection agency or I become liable for the 40% commission fee.
They do the chasing/calling etc. If needs be, they go to court, get garnishments etc etc......and the parent becomes liable for all legal fees.
Once the parent starts to pay, the agency gets 40% and I get 60% of each payment, until we are both paid in full. So sometimes the money trickles in, but that's better than nothing.
They work hard because THEY don't get paid until the parents coughs up the cash.
I use Advanced Credit Management in Orem Utah. They are local to me, but the last time I spoke with their office, they have clients all over the country.
It has been years since I had to use them, but they were GREAT. Very friendly and easy to work with. I gave them copies of all the paperwork (contract, any receipts etc etc.) and they took it from there. No cost to me AT ALL. Here's how it works.....
They add 40% to the bill as soon as the account is turned over to them. It is then illegal for me to accept any payment from the parent. They HAVE to pay the collection agency or I become liable for the 40% commission fee.
They do the chasing/calling etc. If needs be, they go to court, get garnishments etc etc......and the parent becomes liable for all legal fees.
Once the parent starts to pay, the agency gets 40% and I get 60% of each payment, until we are both paid in full. So sometimes the money trickles in, but that's better than nothing.
They work hard because THEY don't get paid until the parents coughs up the cash.
Meeko 04:17 PM 11-21-2014
I didn't have to prove anything really! I took in my paperwork, copies of letters I had written demanding payment etc. Attendance records.
Feel free to call them and ask questions...it's what I did. Like I said, it's been years since I used them, so maybe it's different now, but they were very nice and friendly on the phone and explained things in terms I could understand...not too much "legal-ese"!
801-224-6200 is their number
Feel free to call them and ask questions...it's what I did. Like I said, it's been years since I used them, so maybe it's different now, but they were very nice and friendly on the phone and explained things in terms I could understand...not too much "legal-ese"!
801-224-6200 is their number