He is at it again. I am reading the discipline book, but so far, it doesn't seem to be a good fit for him. Anyone else read 1-2-3 Magic? If so, maybe I could run some scenarios by you and see how I should be handling him. So far today, he has lost the privilage of playing in the water things outside, and also lost the field trip we are taking on Friday (which means that I have to have my alternate come watch him so that I can go with the other kids.) He is now sorting beads and other things for the day. He is being aggressive, destructive, talking back. One thing he did while I was putting the babies down for their naps is he filled a couple of the little dishes (play baby dishes) and play baby potty up with water and dumped them on my floor downstairs. THAT coupled with the fact that he wouldn't come upstairs with me for time out lost him the field trip. (Plus his talking back). I am just not sure how to deal with him. Most of the things he does seems to be a major offense any more. I am worn out, and it is only Tuesday.....

Reply

I am reading 1-2-3 Magic also, but still only in the beginning which talks about dealing with obnoxious behavior. From what I've read so far, you are doing it right. When did you start using it with him? It says that about half of the children will rebel against it at first. As long as you are consistent and remember to 1. Not talk during counting & 2. Keep emotions out of it; I think it will eventually start to work. But what do I know, I'm just starting to read it!
Good luck!

Reply

Check if your library has the tapes or DVDs. Much faster and you get to see lots of examples.

Reply

Wowser, hang in there. I have a question for you. He's been diagnosed right? As in a medical person observed him and diagnosed him and his parents are aware that he is ODD. And parent's know that he is having issues in DC right? I mean you've been telling them each day what he does and how many times he's in trouble? I don't know if he is getting any specialized help or not but if he isn't and he's been diagnosed professionally, his parents know that he's ODD and having issues at daycare and if he's not getting specialized treatment you may want to bring it up to them. At this point I think it's your best option (short of termination).

From what I know kids with ODD almost always have other disorders and the ODD won't get better if the other disorder isn't also taken care of like another learning disability, depression, bi-polar, anxiety disorder, ADHD, etc. You can propose (if you are comfortable with it) to allow them to get him help and have it done in your home. I'm wondering if the parents are doing anything with him to help him because from what I know theres alot that has to be done to see improvement for ODD kids (that you may or may not be interested in doing yourself as well) like parent management trainings and programs specialized for ODD kids, psychotherapy and regular therapy for the child as an individual and for the family as a whole, problem-solving skills training and social skills training for the boy etc.

Unfortunately I read somewhere that for a child with ODD you have to focus on the positive and not the negative so taking things away, time-outs, taking priveledges, discipline etc. don't usually work for these kids and sometimes can make it worse. I don't have any special needs training yet and I make it known to new clients and have it in my policies that although I won't refuse a child only because they have special needs only accomodations within reasonable limits will be made for a child with special needs as long as the child can participate in our normal activities without the need of additional staff, major eqipment, structual modifications to the home etc. Just something you may want to think about.

Reply

The reason you are worn out is because you are caring for a mentally ill child who needs INTENSIVE one to one care and treatment while you are caring for other kids. It's not fair to him. He needs to have his mental illness TREATED. He needs to be in an enviroment where his aggression, violence, and disrespect are TREATED with constant supervision and one to one care.

This is a BAD deal for this kid. He should NOT be in a home day care. it's not good for him and it's not safe. He needs an adult JUST for him and an environment where when he acts out the rest of the children do not loose the attention of the adult. That's one to one care.

ODD is a very very very serious mental disorder. He needs all day long TREATMENT not day care. Shame on his parents for knowing how severely mentally ill this kid is and even considering a home day care environment. They have THE diagnosis. What the HECK are they doing leaving him in a group with SMALL children? What are they thinking? Why aren't THEY providing an adult to TREAT his mental illness?

When you have a mentally ill child you have to provide the enviornment to TREAT the disease. As providers we need to know when a child is too ILL to be in a group of kids.

He needs a GROUP of adults serving him so that nobody is tired by Tuesday. He needs a TEAM of people serving him so that they can have BREAKS and other professionals to consult and make day to day plans for him. He should NOT be in a deal where there is only one adult. It's not enough resources for him.

I've seen WAY too many situations where severe diagnosises like this are given and the parents use it as an EXCUSE for their behavior but don't take the action that comes along with the diagnosis. They DAY they received the diagnosis for this kid their lives should have come to a STOP and plans made for him to have the direct constant one to one care he so badly needs.

He needs to go where he has a TEAM of people just for his care.

Reply

I totally agree, and even though you would be losing out on the income from him, I think the reductions in stress would be more than worth it! Often times parents can actually get this type of care for free through the public school district where they live.
I hope the rest of your week goes better

Reply

Children with ODD (mostly boys) will only fight, argue and misbehave more when an authority figure attempts to get the situation under control. This gets really difficult when there are other children around because the ODD child requires the one on one attention. I went to a workshop designed for working with children who have ODD. It's not necessarily that the child wants control over others, they just don't want ANYONE to have control over them! I think it's going to be trial and error with this kid. According to the guy who taught the class, the best way to deal with a child with ODD is to try to not let the child get to the state of agitation that leads into the behavior. If you want, I can look up his name and website for you. Good luck!

Reply

Actually the book I am reading was suggested by a lot of the sites I researched ODD on. And it states that specifically for ODD they should have privilages taken away. It is a terrible day here. I am not getting a break at nap time because I have no where to put him but where I am because he either throws things, destroys things, talks to others, or etc. So I get to look at him the entire nap/quiet time. The boy needs meds, and I don't believe in medicating kids!

Reply

Mom didn't even let me know that he was being tested until he had a diagnosis. Mom hasn't had him to see anyone since his diagnosis which I guess was completed 2 months ago. Mom has no time for him, not to give him the time he needs. She has 4 kids. Single mom. Full time student. And after an incident from last week when he threw something of ours at another child and BROKE the item thrown (remember that post??) She "grounded" him from his DS and Wii and the NEXT day, she was tired, and didn't feel like dealing with him, so she GAVE THE GAMES BACK!!! I am at a loss. How do I go about suggesting a facility that could give him one on one attention without her getting defensive. She is going to say that she can't afford it or something. Or that he just needs to be medicated. I feel like I care more about how to get him thru this. I can't believe a doctor diagnosed this boy and sent them on their way without putting together a plan with mom. I am just so frustrated.

Reply

First, get YOU out of this mess. You probably do care more than the others do. But this is not your child. You have plenty of other children that need you and you are taking YOU away from them every time you have to deal with this one child or when you are exhausted by Tuesday. All the other children deserve to have you at 100%, not fully depleted by Tuesday. You are sacrificing the group for the sake of one.

I know you feel like you want to save this child. I have been there far too many times to count. But here's the deal. You are human, not Superwoman. But even if you were, no one would expect you to fix the entire world. After all, Superman doesn't do it all by himself. Neither does Spiderman, Wonderwoman, the Hulk, Batman, etc. We have multiple superheros even in fiction because one just isn't enough. So stop trying to being a superhero and explain to the mom that this child needs one of one care. Explain that because you spend so much time on him, the other children are not getting the attention they deserve. And explain that she needs to look into agencies that help with this sort of thing.

Reply

I hate to say it but I have to agree. This child needs someone working with him one on one at least part of the time or you need to let him go. You said she was a single mom of 4 and will probably say she can't afford it (why you would have 4 kids and can't afford the care they need is beyond me but that's in another forum) but I'm sure if she is struggling she can find a non-profit organization, grant etc. that can help her. I know if it were me in your situation I would want to do something to help this child also and not just let him fall through the cracks but let's be realistic, if he AND you don't get some additional help there's no way you'll be succefull on your own. Not when you don't have specialized training in coping and helping him cope with his disorder.

I would deffinetely have a heart to heart with her and tell her that you know she's struggling and it's hard for her but he needs care that you alone can't offer. Ask her to seriously, and quickly, look for help for him that she can either afford or that she can qualify for that caters with kids with ODD and as I said before maybe even offer to hold the training in your daycare. You can even help her out if you wish and research programs that come out to your home. I know a daycare provider that specializes in special needs children and has several counselors, speach/behavior/developmental therapists, and nurses that come by and work with her kids individually. It's at no cost to you, the child will be worked with for a few hours a few days a week, you can watch if you wish and learn how to handle him better and speak to someone with experience with this disorder first hand to have your questions answered. Each parent finds an organization or help that their child needs and the care (or at least part of it) is done in this provider's home.

It'll be an amazing addition to your resume, you can charge more for you services (by the way you may want to discuss an increase of your fee with the parent since a child with special needs is a lot more work than other kids) and may even want to take a class/ training or two of your own (tax deductable). Just think about it. You don't sound like the kind that would just wash your hands clean and be rid of him but hun, without help or at least training it'll be an-uphill battle the entire way.

Reply

Is this a State paid family where you have the other siblings in day care? Are they a large portion of your income?

Reply

What state and city are you in? Maybe I can find something in your area like my friend with the special needs kids does. As far as I know most (if not all) qualify for one program or another to either make it free or affordable.

Reply

This is the state family. They are about half of my income right now. Honestly, it isn't about the money, not soley. I would miss the money, but would fill the spots quickly. I get 1 to 2 calls a week. I am actually interviewing a family tonight. I think my issue is, I have a son who has been a challenge myself. In another way. He isn't aggressive or disrespectful. He is determined and imaginative and just busy (not ADHD busy, just creative). I have had teachers who didn't understand him and it was a miserable year for all involved. Then I have had teachers who have embraced him and worked with him. Worked with me to try to figure out what worked for HIM. I am trying to do that. I don't want this child to be labeled. I want him to thrive.

Reply

I agree with this! I watched the DVD from the library and it was quick and easy to learn!

Reply

Had a chat with mom. She reacted like I thought. Lashed out at me. Threatened to take the kids somewhere else and I called her bluff and told her that may be what we have to do. She made an appt with Dr. to discuss a plan of some kind/medication. I am glad. Not just for my sake, but for his. We'll see where it goes from here. Hoping I can get thru this week without too much more frustration. Thanks everyone.

Reply

What I was trying to say before (but was rushed with hubby waiting on me) was that we WANT to help and fix children like this, but the best thing we can do is realize that the child needs more than what any one person can provide, especially when that one person has other children to look after. Even without this one child, I am sure you could compete for Superwoman of the Year just like many of us. But with this child, you are going for martyrdom. It sad that the mother cares more about passing the buck than stepping up and getting him the help he needs and deserves. Then again, if she just passes the buck to you and you can't fix him (because no 1 person can), then she can blame you for him not turning out the way she wanted. Sadly, she will probably just do the daycare hop until he goes to school, gets labeled, and put on drugs (behavior controlling medication). SAD, SAD, SAD. Try to convince the mom to get him real help, then let it go and focus on the other children you have. You DO have the power to make a REAL difference in their lives. And who knows, by lighting a fire under this mom, maybe you will end up being the catalyst that gets her to get him the help he needs, so you would be making a world of difference in his life.

I'm sending you prayers and hugs. Tonight treat yourself to a cup of tea or a margarita (or whatever eases your mind and soothes your soul), listen to some relaxing music, and maybe even get a well earned massage from someone. You deserve all of it for struggling for so long.

Reply

I'm not surprised she lashed out. You just told her NO. She's used to the YES that she can have her mentally ill child in your day care without providing services AND funding for his special needs. Every day she gets to take him to a setting without these in place she is not having to DEAL with his illness/disorder.

Its not good for him or HER to have him in a regular program without services. She needs to come to the realization that having a diagnosis for him does no good if the services and MONEY are not in place for his day to day care. He needs to be funded as a special needs child where there is a significant amount of money available to hire the staff for the one to one care he needs.

This is an all too common situation where the parents get "help" up to the point of a diagnosis to EXPLAIN the child's behavior but once the diagnosis is given the HARD WORK of dealing with a mental disroder isn't done. She has to DO something other than just physically take him to a Child Psychiatrist. If he truly has this diagnosis then she needs to treat him just as any child with a medical condition is treated. He needs INTENSIVE supervision and therapy. It's just WRONG to have him in a day care funded as a regular child and expect one adult to be able to manage his special needs.

If you REALLY want to help him then let him go. Mom needs the life experience of one day care after another saying "No.. he can't enroll as a regular child with his special needs". He needs to be dismissed over and over and over again for her to get the idea that he HAS to have intensive services AND monies available for his care. The only way to get that across to her is to have every day care that would take him for regular pay tell her they won't take him without special needs pay. OVER AND OVER AND OVER again will get the message to the Mom.

Since she is the one to ultimately manage his life then SHE is the one who has to be schooled first. Nothing you do will affect this child if the Mom doesn't understand her role as the one RESPONSIBLE to make sure he gets what he needs from people who are PAID to give him what he needs. That means expensive providers doing the hard work of caring for this mentally ill child.

I have a sneaking suspicion that the YES she has gotten over the years in the care of this kid is directly related to the fact that he has siblings who are also funded from the State while he is in care. My guess is she has had provider after provider who have kept this kid as a regular paying kid because the provider gets the money for the other three kids. That works until they all get school aged and then it only works during the summer. She most likely hasn't been forced to get the funding and do the WORK of therapy and treatment because provider after provider tolerated him so they could have the money from the siblings pay.

It's awesome that you don't need the siblings and you don't need the money. This allows you to give the MOM the life experience of a NO she so desperately needs. It's criminal that she's had this diagnosis for two months and has done nothing that you are aware of to treat his illness. If she needs to be forced to deal with him AND get the funding in place it will in the end be what is in his first and best interest. The Mom first. That's your role in this. Stop the MOM from not dealing with this.

I wouldn't have any problem letting this kid go. I don't have the resources or education to work with a child with this kind of illness. It would be awful for him to be in this group of children without the supervision and treatment he needs. My world would be so harmful to him. I don't have the skill set or the money to provide him one to one care with State paid monies. He deserves to be with people who KNOW how to care for him... not just people who want to help but people who are being PAID to deal with his illness, trained to deal with his illness, and have relief people also trained and paid to deal with his illness on a day to day basis. If you don't know what to do with him NOW then you aren't the trained professional he needs. It's not a matter of learning what to do .. whoever has him should already KNOW how to care for him AND be paid the monies for that education and experience.

Reply

You are completely right. I am so not trained to give him what he needs. I put him in the same category as my son, just because my son can be challenging, but in a completely different way and not even close to the same way. But my son can be misunderstood, so I was going to give the child the benefit of me trying to do everything I can. But I am realizing that it is at the expense of ALL of the other kids, mine included. And I owe this mother NOTHING. If she were doing half of what I have tried with him, I think we would see improvement. Ugh. Life is hard.

Reply