Hypothetical Question About Security Cameras

[blandino]

Please don't jump all over me, this is a purely hypothetical question.

This was brought on by an incident that happened a few months ago, and the recent conversation about cameras in the daycare.

A few months ago, we had an incident with a DCD, where he became offensive and we handed him his baby and asked him to leave (long story short). Between the time he left he went from calling the handoff "fast and rough" to saying we "tossed his baby to him", like literally in midair . Which absolutely didn't happen... but it totally beside the point.

IF we had cameras that recorded... and were able to show them to licensing, that would clearly prove that it didn't happen the way DCD said.

Now, suppose a daycare has cameras, some sort of similar we said/they said incident happens and the daycare doesn't want to show the footage to licensing. What happens then ? Clearly, that makes you look guilty - if you could exonerate your self, then you would. BUT...I mean, we aren't required to have them, so licensing can't say that you have to show them the footage. They might not even know the camera's are in place.

Basically, I'm asking if you had camera's and could you use them to save your own tail but not use them if it doesn't suit you ?

I know that is totally out there, but my mind wanders... And I still always wish that we had a camera so that his wife could see what an extreme exaggeration her husband made. I would so love for her to see that he was flat out lying to her.

[Childminder]

You could always just say you didn't have the record feature on. We don't because we just want them for observation purposes.

[blandino]

Originally Posted by Childminder

You could always just say you didn't have the record feature on. We don't because we just want them for observation purposes.

True, and conveniently have the things that would help you out recorded... but the things that incriminate you (if that were the case) you just happen not to have.

I know a local center has cameras that record the current day and are erased at the end of the day. So basically, if anything worth saving occurred, you would have until the end of the day to save it.

[Bookworm]

My center has them and they've been a big help in covering our butts. There has only been 2 incidents with DSS where we showed the recording to clear things up. I don't have a problem with cameras unless they're used for spying on employes.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Sounds good to me!

[missy]

If an incident were to become a legal matter (civil/criminal/police), you would have to provide the footage, you wouldn't have a choice. Personally, I believe they would help CYA much more than hurt, but you just never know, they could also be used against you at some point.

[Sunshine74]

In the New York State regulations, it says: "(g) Day care centers that use video surveillance equipment must allow inspectors and other representatives of the Office to have access to such equipment and to have viewing privileges as required by the Office."

So basically you don't have to have cameras, but if you do, you have to give them access.

[Margarete]

Originally Posted by Sunshine74

In the New York State regulations, it says: "(g) Day care centers that use video surveillance equipment must allow inspectors and other representatives of the Office to have access to such equipment and to have viewing privileges as required by the Office."

So basically you don't have to have cameras, but if you do, you have to give them access.

Does that mean you would need to give them remote access, including pan abilities if your system allows... I would not be comfortable with that at all. I have one camera in our room over my infants crib.. not giving that information out to anyone else (we don't have it set up to record)

[Cat Herder]

Honestly, if I made a mistake I'd already know and would let my inspector see anything she needed to. Usually I am my own worst critic anyway so it would be a relief to get help if I needed it.

The cameras also keep me motivated on days I feel like slacking.. what if this tape was viewed today? Would I be embarrassed?

Now, my cameras don't cover potty's, changing tables or dressing areas. I could see that becoming "weird" in the wrong context so I just don't.

[EntropyControlSpecialist]

Originally Posted by Sunshine74

In the New York State regulations, it says: "(g) Day care centers that use video surveillance equipment must allow inspectors and other representatives of the Office to have access to such equipment and to have viewing privileges as required by the Office."

So basically you don't have to have cameras, but if you do, you have to give them access.

She lives in Oklahoma so different regs. I wonder if they mention anything. That is interesting about NY, though. What if you don't have a recording feature? They aren't going to get very far!

[blandino]

Originally Posted by Cat Herder

Honestly, if I made a mistake I'd already know and would let my inspector see anything she needed to. Usually I am my own worst critic anyway so it would be a relief to get help if I needed it.

The cameras also keep me motivated on days I feel like slacking.. what if this tape was viewed today? Would I be embarrassed?

Now, my cameras don't cover potty's, changing tables or dressing areas. I could see that becoming "weird" in the wrong context so I just don't.

ITA with the bolded. But I am talking about those who KNOW they made a mistake, and don't want to be honest about it. Could they force them to show the footage ? It seems like you would be incriminating themselves... (just using the word incriminating, even it its not a crime)

[Sunshine74]

Originally Posted by Margarete

Does that mean you would need to give them remote access, including pan abilities if your system allows... I would not be comfortable with that at all. I have one camera in our room over my infants crib.. not giving that information out to anyone else (we don't have it set up to record)

I read it as, if it records, they have the rights to view the recording, or if they are on site, they could watch the cameras while they were there.

Originally Posted by EntropyControlSpecialist

She lives in Oklahoma so different regs. I wonder if they mention anything. That is interesting about NY, though. What if you don't have a recording feature? They aren't going to get very far!

I figured since the OP phrased it as a hypothetical situation, I would put my two cents in as to what I knew was true here. I am curious now as to what the regs are for them in Oklahoma though. I may have to do some investigating.

I think that if you don't have a record feature, they could just watch the cameras while they were on site.

[Laurel]

Do these cameras record sound also or are they silent?

The reason I ask is because years ago I saw a case where someone alleged child abuse by their nanny. They had a nanny cam in their house. I'm not sure if the nanny was aware it was there or not. It did not record sound though.

I saw it on the internet and I couldn't tell if the nanny was mean or playing. Sound would have made all the difference. To me it looked like possible abuse as she said she was bouncing the baby on her leg and claimed she was playing. She didn't have a friendly look on her face but it wasn't super mean either so it was just hard to tell. I think the court decided there was no proof of child abuse just looking at that video. I would have had to agree had I been on a jury because it looked 'iffy' and I just couldn't tell.

It just always made me leary about being recorded because what if a jury saw something 'different' than what was actually happening? We all interpret things differently. Don't think I'd want to give others that power over my daycare.

Just something to think about.

Laurel

[blandino]

Originally Posted by Sunshine74

I read it as, if it records, they have the rights to view the recording, or if they are on site, they could watch the cameras while they were there.



I figured since the OP phrased it as a hypothetical situation, I would put my two cents in as to what I knew was true here. I am curious now as to what the regs are for them in Oklahoma though. I may have to do some investigating.

I think that if you don't have a record feature, they could just watch the cameras while they were on site.

I don't believe we have anything about security cameras in our licensing regulations.

[blandino]

Originally Posted by Laurel

Do these cameras record sound also or are they silent?

The reason I ask is because years ago I saw a case where someone alleged child abuse by their nanny. They had a nanny cam in their house. I'm not sure if the nanny was aware it was there or not. It did not record sound though.

I saw it on the internet and I couldn't tell if the nanny was mean or playing. Sound would have made all the difference. To me it looked like possible abuse as she said she was bouncing the baby on her leg and claimed she was playing. She didn't have a friendly look on her face but it wasn't super mean either so it was just hard to tell. I think the court decided there was no proof of child abuse just looking at that video. I would have had to agree had I been on a jury because it looked 'iffy' and I just couldn't tell.

It just always made me leary about being recorded because what if a jury saw something 'different' than what was actually happening? We all interpret things differently. Don't think I'd want to give others that power over my daycare.

Just something to think about.

Laurel

THIS EXACTLY. Sometimes a camera can make it look like things have happened differently than they did. The other day I went to move a DCG away from somewhere she wasn't supposed to be, and when I put her down, she was mad and threw herself back. On a camera, that every well could have looked like I put her down roughly. Sometimes if your back is to the camera with a child in front of you, certain things get blocked, and it isn't clear what is going on. That would be one of my bigger fears in having to show footage to licensing.

Let me make clear, that our licensing is a bit different than a lot of yours. They are very parent oriented, and not really interested in helping the providers. They can also go on a real witch hunt when they need to, and have done so in the past. Currently, our specific licensor is great (and calls herself a "provider advocate"), but she is in the small minority around here. So THAT is my bigger reason for worry involving DHS and security camera footage. I wish we had licensing that we could trust and work with, but it just isn't so for us. Their main goal is to CYA, and it doesn't matter who gets treated unfairly in the process.

[Sunshine74]

Originally Posted by blandino

THIS EXACTLY. Sometimes a camera can make it look like things have happened differently than they did. The other day I went to move a DCG away from somewhere she wasn't supposed to be, and when I put her down, she was mad and threw herself back. On a camera, that every well could have looked like I put her down roughly. Sometimes if your back is to the camera with a child in front of you, certain things get blocked, and it isn't clear what is going on. That would be one of my bigger fears in having to show footage to licensing.

Let me make clear, that our licensing is a bit different than a lot of yours. They are very parent oriented, and not really interested in helping the providers. They can also go on a real witch hunt when they need to, and have done so in the past. Currently, our specific licensor is great (and calls herself a "provider advocate"), but she is in the small minority around here. So THAT is my bigger reason for worry involving DHS and security camera footage. I wish we had licensing that we could trust and work with, but it just isn't so for us. Their main goal is to CYA, and it doesn't matter who gets treated unfairly in the process.

That, in the bold, is one thing I am worried about.

Originally Posted by Sunshine74

That, in the bold, is one thing I am worried about.

That is why you should have multiple security cameras in your network viewing from different angles.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

That is why you should have multiple security cameras in your network viewing from different angles.

Security cameras are cheap enough these days that you should be able to have coverage from most angles. This helps avoid things that "could look bad" to show what really happened.

[nannyde]

I have a chapter in my book called "Hard Core Pawn Parent" that uses this EXACT scenario... to the tee to describe a badly behaved parent.

You are not the first provider this has happened to... this exact situation.