Im about to open an in home daycare and ve already had a few interviews. But my friend tells me that I should disclose to the parents that I see a chronic pain specialist and have for three years who monitors my medications via urine and blood checks etc. she said because I'm on lorcet and a pain patch I should tell all of my daycare parent all about it. I've been on these same meds for two to three years and I'm followed every other month with my doctor .

What do you guys think about this?? I'm taking lorcet by mouth and the every three day patches . Prt of me says because I'm regulated on them and I'm not impaired, it's non of the parents business. Even people who don't know I'm on the pills and patches are surprised because they had no idea. I've asked my doctor if I appear even mildy impaired to him. He says no, the only reason he would know I was taking something is my pupils?

So my question is this.... Do I tell parents or not"?? If you were a parent at my interview and I disclosed the above, would you leave your kids here or not??

Thanks for your replies in advanced.

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I wouldn't leave my kids there. Not that you aren't completely fine, but I'd cut my losses before I was invested. Just in case you could no longer deal with daycare, and the pain at the same time.

I, personally wouldn't say anything. I don't feel like it's anyone's business. If you do decide you need to quit daycare, it's no different than finding out you have a serious illness, or need to relocate, or something else. When you find childcare, there's always the risk that the provider won't still be doing daycare in two or three years.

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What if I had excellent references that proved I could deal with pain and Childcare... Or a note from my doctor...

So basically what I'm getting is to just not disclose.

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I would definitely want to know.

I would not leave my children in the care of someone under the influence of any narcotic.


If I was a provider in your shoes I would absolutely disclose it.

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From my standpoint, I think is be pretty open minded. I'd want to know from the potential providers doctor that says there isn't any contraindications to the provider doing daycare, I'd also ask for lots of references. And if I went on an interview I'm pretty sure I can tell if the is impaired in just a few minutes. If all went well, I'd see no reason why provider couldn't do great at Childcare. Good luck OP

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If a doctor has cleared you for care of children and your licensing agency knows about your condition, I would NOT disclose anything to anyone.

NOT because I think you should "hide" it but because you legally don't have to tell people unless you are required to....kwim?

My husband is a type 1 insulin diabetic. He takes medication to control his condition. He is NOT required by law to tell anyone this information.

Depending on what your condition is and what the possibilities are that you could become impaired enough to not be able to provide care alone, I would keep my personal life private.

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That is my own personal opinion. If you don't feel like it will have anything to do with your daycare, then it shouldn't be said.

I might suggest not transporting kids though. Mostly to protect yourself, because, again, i'm sure you are completely capable. But, people (insurance companies, lawyers) look for any loophole they can find.

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Would you want your families doing the same thing to you? Hiding that their child was on serious prescription drugs that may or may not affect their day to day abilities?

Narcotics are what they are. They DO impair. It's the very nature of what they are.


Disclose while offering your references and notes from your doctor, then hope for the best.

I think it's really wrong not to be open about a medical issue of this severity though.


I'm not even sure licensing would be ok with that where I live.....

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Because its well known there is a huge difference in someone who takes pain medications long term. They tend to not have issues with being impaired... A least compared to someone who has only been on them a few weeks. The chronic takers in general aren't impaired as opposed to the ones who has just started.

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Are you currently providing care to children?

Is this a hypothetical question?

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My ex father-in-law is a functioning alcoholic.

He can put down a bottle of EJ in the morning, brush his teeth and go to work and no one would ever know otherwise because he's been doing it the last 30+ years.

So does that mean that because his body has learned to compensate for any obvious impairments, that he should be allowed to care for children or other vulnerable beings?


Unequivocal - NO.

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I'll add to that, if it's not a hypothetical question and you are currently providing care to children are you or have you ever been licensed?

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Well from my expire nice as a nurse, lots of nurses were on chronic daily pain medication for legit emits problems and cared doe by pan diction etc. there is a way to tell if a nurse is impaired. Howevr, this happens all over the world. Funny(or not) rarely could even a pro tell which nurses are on daily narcotic pills a day,,

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I'm not hypothetical.

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....there is also a way to tell who posters are.

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Do what your regs require of you. If a doctor's clearance is what's needed, then get that. In WI we need a medical clearance form signed.

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True. My BF is a traveling nurse. She's on prescription pain pills and has been for many years. She seems to be in very high demand for her work, and it doesn't seem to impair her in the least. She had to go off the pain killers during her clinicals (I'm not really sure what that means) and then she went back on. She was more impaired while in pain than she is on pain meds.

I think most of us would be surprised how many people we trust to take care of us, or our kids are using prescription drugs to manage pain or other issues.

I think some of us are overreacting.

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I'm calling bologna.....as the daughter of a nurse who nannied for all her doctors and grew up with all her nurse friends as aunts.

Spotting an individual on narcotics isn't rocket science. It's why without running a tox screen ER docs can peg seekers a mile away.

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Yup. Mods have special magic voodoo powers.

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I'm at a confused point now. What do you mean? You mean how to tell if posters on here are on prescription plain medications ?

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I mean I (and other mods) know who you are.

Your view of "unregistered" posters is different than ours.

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Wait. Now i'm confused. Someone P.M me and enlighten me, because I seem to be missing something obvious.

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As a mother, I would want to know. And no, I wouldn't leave my daughter in your care.

As a provider, I feel it is nobody's business and you shouldn't have to disclose.

Hypocritical? Yep. But at least I'm honest

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Mods can see IP addresses and link names to annons...like right now they know who I am without signing in

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LOL.. I didn't know that.

If it were Friday, i'd come back and post a controversial post under an unregistered name just to make the day go a little faster. It's been a while since we've had something to bicker about.

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O.K... that's how I feel.

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I signed in just for funsies...that unreg you quoted was me...I do wonder though how it shows up to the mods...IP's wouldn't be really easy to match...neither would location...Tell us mods...how does it show for you?

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Me too.

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I am confused now. Are you the OP?

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No I am not.

"Mods can see IP addresses and link names to annons...like right now they know who I am without signing in"

the above quote was me.. the OP was not me.

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I would not tell anyone. Its nobodys business. I know a lot of providers that tell there clients everything and they do not need to know. I think it would be a diffrent story if you had just started on those meds!
Debbie

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Every time I read one of these threads it makes me want to be a mod. I must be nosey

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I used to feel the same way now I'm a mod and sometimes, really, I'd rather not know things.

And yes. I hate not knowing things, always have.

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Well, it isn't like a flashing neon sign or anything but when a topic is posted by an unregistered user and the topic has the potential to be controversial or dramatic, we (mods) take clues and cues from the post.

We pay attention to words they normally misspell or use incorrectly, to speech patterns and tempo as well as tone.

Those are VERY identifiable details sometimes.

9 out of 10 times we (mods) simply suspect but if the suspicion is strong enough, we can do a little cross referencing and a little more cross referencing and after a little research and a little bit of guessing, it usually becomes obvious.

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Any chance you could please confirm the OP is not me?

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That's really neat!

My inner texting teen comes out a lot and I almost always do "..." in my posts and emails....If I don't sign in, which is often, I can tell what unreg is me quickly by that and by my lazy use of contractions and punctuation..and spelling.

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I think that if your doctor has cleared you and you are capable of watching children then I see no reason to disclose that information. It is nobody's business but your own up until the point that it starts to affect your ability to care for the children.

There are so many different illnesses that providers may have that "could" affect their ability to run their daycares, yet I'm sure not everyone would jump on the "you-must-disclose" bandwagon. For example- diabetes could become an impairment, as well as many other common or not so common ailments that people wouldn't normally disclose. Narcotics seem to be the big taboo of prescription drugs even though it is often prescribed for such minor things as a pulled tooth.

I, personally, wouldn't want my child under the care of someone on antipsychotic medications or someone who was seeing a psychiatrist for whatever personal issues they may be having, but how many of you would feel comfortable disclosing to your clients that you were seeing a shrink?

I see these examples as no different than prescription narcotic use as long as everything has been cleared through a doctor.

I'm speaking as someone who has been, on and off over the past 24 years, on narcotic pain medication for a chronic illness. I was able to operate "heavy machinery" with no problems because I knew how my body would react to the medication. I was more of a risk without the narcotics because I couldn't function normally due to the pain. Even without narcotics my illness could cause issues in caring for children. Hell- it could even kill me- but I feel that it is my right to not tell parents if I don't want to and I think that right should be given to all people dealing with any illness as long as they are physically able to care for the children and have gotten consent from a doctor to do so.

I say don't tell unless it becomes an issue.

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I agree.

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The OP in this thread is NOT Greenplasticwateringcans

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Thanks

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I heard some people on here that said you need to have a physical where your doctor says you are healthy enough to work with children before you can get licensed/registered (depending on your state). If you are in pain, this is probably not the best field for you. My aunt was a TA at an elementary school about 15 years ago and once at recess a large child jumped on her back without warning and she has had chronic back pain ever since (she now has fibromyalgia). I took a class with one woman who has worked at a center with infants/toddlers for over 10 years, she now is more of a supervisor (not hands on) because she has a bad back after years of picking up babies and having to get on the floor to play with them. When we were in middle school and the PE teachers did scoliosis (curved spine) tests they would tell us not to carry babies or small children on one side of our hips (which happens to be a natural weight baring child-carrying position) because that could cause back issues later on. In fact, the FCCP I used to work for has been in business for over 30 years, she has always been naturally tall but now has a hunched back and scoliosis from having to bend down and pick up/carry young children everyday for so long- now she mostly does the administration/planning/shopping part of the business but has several assistants who do most of the direct physical work with kids (like teaching dances for graduation or leading in outside game activities).

Kids today are heavier than they were decades ago. My ECE teacher says most centers around here want you to be able to lift 50-75lbs, it used to be only 25-50 lbs. Also if you have to take something that can alter your mental state or ability to do normal tasks (like driving) than I would think licensing would have an issue with it. Plus, if I put my [future] child in someone's care and something did happen I would want to know that (under regular circumstances) they are physically able to get to them and help them if there was an emergency [such as CPR if they collapse on the floor].

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Sometimes when I see the "unregistered" or "logged out for privacy" I totally start wondering, but then I step back and tell myself I probably really don't want to know or deal with what the Mods do!! Thanks for confirming that!

The "provider" part of me totally agrees with this but the "mommy" side makes want to say you should disclose it. I guess that's why I'm in this business because I'd rather be the one disclosing information (I don't have anything to disclose BTW, well unless you count the occasional need for some wine after a day of crazy as something that needs to be disclosed ) rather than wondering or finding out after the fact.

If I was OP (I'm not BTW, Mods can check ) I don't think I'd be in this business. I'm sore some nights and I don't have any chronic pain issues. Of course how I'm interpreting chronic pain that requires daily medication (IMO it must be pretty bad and hard to deal with ) may not be what the OP actually deals with, but either way I certainly wouldn't want to more pain/soreness/stress to and already present problem.

PS what happened to frgs? Didn't she have a similar thread of sorts (can't remember what it was titled)? Maybe she could offer some advice on how she handles this, I don't remember what actually came out of that thread other than different debates. (And if I'm totally thinking of the wrong poster sorry!!)

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I haven't read most of the replies, but I'm going to speak from the heart and it may come across as demeaning...which is totally not my intention at all.

I would never leave my child with someone who uses pain medications of that magnitude. After having said that, I will explain.

My son (and his wife) are both addicted to prescription pain medications...HEAVILY.

They started out by using them for the purpose they were prescribed and as they became used to them, they no longer worked as effectively and they, unknowingly of the potential dangers of addiction, began using more.

The next thing you knew, they were taking 5-10 vicodin at a time, several times daily. It was something I was not aware of at that time, but it became an issue which led to them to losing their jobs, their cars, their home and ultimately their kids (who I now have custody of...permanently) as well as the rest of the family. It has destroyed our entire family.

And although you are being monitored closely, I have also been witness to how my son and dil were able to alter their drug screens.

Dealing with the foster care court system has opened my eyes to a whole new world of 'pain meds' which I would never have believed 5 years ago and because of my knowledge of how many people are actually addicted to prescription pain meds, I would base my decision to not leave my child in the care of anyone using them on my experiences of watching from the sidelines of the dangers of prescription pain meds.

NOBODY ever sets out to become addicted, but they do and as one type of pain med becomes ineffective in acheiving the same feeling as they are used to and has become their daily life, more powerful narcotics come into play...such as morphine and heroin.

Again, please remember this is not an attack on you...this is my reasoning as to why I would not leave my child with anyone using prescription pain meds such as the ones you use.

One more piece of info I learned the hard way...the pain patches, although seem harmless, are also used by withdrawing the gel out of the patch with a syringe and injecting it. My son almost died from it and the doctor said that most people who do this, do not survive.

So to answer your question, I would NOT disclose the information about using the pain meds for two reasons. # 1, parents may feel strongly against it and if you want to stay in business it may affect you being able to get/have clients. # 2, IF you happen to come across users who abuse the meds, they will hound you for yours or possibly even try stealing them from you.

Yet again, on the other hand, if something were to ever happen to a child and the parents were not aware of the situation with the pain meds, it could open up a whole other can of worms...

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If you are in chronic pain I can pretty well guarantee this isn't the career for you. There is so much physical to our day.

I don't know enough about pain management drugs to comment on disclosure but based solely on how many days you wake up feeling horrible you may also miss more time than a working parent can gamble on.

I am sorry you feel crappy but I'd say try for something else.

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I am on medications for a chronic illness. At this point, none of them are narcotics. I have in the past had to use narcotics for pain management. When I was taking them, I needed them to manage pain. I never felt that I was unable to function normally while on them. I worked and drove the entire time, under the supervision and approval of my doctor.

It is unfortunate that people immediately equate narcotics with people who are impaired or a re functioning alcoholics. If you NEED the medication, you aren't impaired while taking it. YOu become impaired when you are using narcotics for recreational use.

Please be cautious not to paint people who NEED a narcotic as less than functioning and capable members of society. It is unfair and a bit discriminatory.

OP, if your doctor has signed a release saying you are capable of caring for children, then you are all set. You do not need to disclose every personal thing that happens in your life. As long as you and your medical team feel you are in the clear ~ don't sweat it.

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I am the type of person who gets loopy on cold meds. I had a kidney stone a few years ago and I was on morphine I couldn't walk down the stairs without help let alone care for 5 two year olds alone.

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Exactly this. I have lupus I do not necessarily disclose that at interviews. Most of my parents know. But, that is after we have that relationship. That way if I look at them and say I am just tired this week so we have been a little more mellow, they know. They know in the summer that the sun does get to me etc. I am not on any meds and my doctor note is with the county stating that I can do childcare etc.

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If you take the emotions out of it drug facts are facts.

Narcotics impair functions. No one ever said all function, but certain functions, yes. It's exactly why they work.

Narcotics (opioids specifically because that's what was mentioned in the OP) do not treat or rid the body of pain. They simply impair the central nervous system so it can't send messages to the brain that the body is in pain and what messages it does send are "altered" by the brain so the body doesn't feel those return messages as pain.

The fact that one has a legitimate need for a powerful narcotic as opposed to one who takes it for recreational purposes does not change the effect of a drug on the body or brain. The fact that some people smoke marijuana to regain their appetite during cancer treatments and others take it just for the high does not change what the THC does to the brain kwim?


Too add to what you said about your personal situation bunnyslippers - while your pain meds may have a different effect on you than they do on someone else doesn't change the fact that they can and do impair others. Significantly. Taking that for what it is how does one determine who can function adequately while on them and caring for children and who can't? If licensing says no one on narcotics should be allowed to care for children how is that fair to you? If licensing says anyone on narcotics should be allowed to care for children what of the person who IS physically and mentally altered while on them? If they say everyone on narcotics should be given a chance to prove they can adequately provide for children in their care how do you quantify that ability? And who would be qualified to make such an assessment? Who's going to pay for it? Who should be privy to the results?

I don't have the answers to any of those questions, but simply saying a doc prescribed them so I must be fine wouldn't be enough for me.

Look at all the people in this world who are able to abuse prescription drugs. Look at how many doctors either don't know they're being shopped by a patient who has many doctors or simply don't care. So if those docs can't and in some cases won't stop an opioid addicts, how do you weed those individuals out? And should they be allowed to care for kids just because you and others like you can? Most addicts will tell you they are functioning. Not that you aren't or weren't in the past but what of the ones who truly aren't and can't see that?


In situations like this I think it should completely be up to the parents of enrolling children to make the judgement call. What do they see, know and feel comfortable with. If they don't have the whole picture though how can they make an accurate assessment?




I hope you are able to step outside of your personal situation and see why as a whole this could be an issue for many providers. How many are going to be honest? And what are the potential pit falls of dishonesty when it comes to children in care?




(just as an aside - my ex father-in-law absolutely needs alcohol at this point too, as in legitimate need. If he tried to quit drinking today cold turkey it would kill him. One could definitely argue whether he is functioning or impaired though.)

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Where I live, you can't provide care unless your doctor signs off on your ability to effectively and safely care for children. The doctor is responsible for evaluating his patient and making that determination.

Medical issues are private, and should continue to be so. Narcotics, as well as a million other mind altering substances, are available to the general public, legally or illegally. People who recreationally use them typically don't tell their employers. So why, if I am legally prescribed a drug by a physician who then agrees I am able to do my job, do I need to reveal it to potential clients? That seems to be discriminatory and could be detrimental to me professionally and personally.

I am not speaking from emotion, but rather from a legal position. My medical issues are private, and I have the right to maintain that privacy, as long as I am not a danger to myself or others. Again, my doctor has approved me to work while taking these drugs (I am not taking them now).

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While I absolutely agree with Willow about the effects prescription drugs have on people, I FULLY believe that medical conditions that are being closely monitored by a doctor shouldn't have to be disclosed to anyone simply because of the seriousness of being on medication.

As I said before, my DH is an insulin diabetic. His doctor monitor's his health and well being VERY closely and carefully. He reports my husband's condition to the Department of Motor Vehicles every 3-6 months (depending on requirements and his last test result) so that my husband is ok to drive and continue to hold a valid driver's license.

My DH is NOT required to inform passengers in his vehicle or other driver's on the road that he is currently taking medication to control a potentially serious disease so IMHO, it is NO different for child care provider's.

As long as a doctor is monitoring the condition and signs off on the fact that the person IS capable of doing their job, I still don't feel it is anyone else's business.

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So when a child comes down with a weird rash in your care, or a barking cruddy cough that lasts for two weeks, or diarrhea that doesn't go away do you require a doctors note detailing diagnosis, treatment plan and specifics on whether or not the child is contagious or not for that child to be able to return to care -or- do you just take moms word that the child ever even saw a doc and is totally fine?

There are legalities (one still has to disclose such information to licensing whether they want to or not no?) and then there are ethics. As long as you're adhering to licensings rules and regs then of course you're in the clear, but I do hope you understand why many parents expect their provider to go above and beyond what the law merely requires. That's when ethics comes into play and all of that is up for debate.


I will add that I have diagnosed anxiety disorders and take medication very periodically for it (a benzo, so nothing I'd EVER take during care hours - if I needed something that strong to function day to day I'd choose another profession). I absolutely disclose that to my families when they start, let them know that if I had to get up in front of a crowd and speak it would give me a heart attack, it's never prevented a family from signing on with me. We giggle, they sympathize, and then we move on to another topic. I'm not saying that's what you should or shouldn't do bunnyslippers, we all need to do what we believe is best, I'm only saying that I believe my families deserve to know and as a parent it's absolutely something I would expect to be made aware of from the get go.

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This!

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What I'm reading here is as long as a doctor signs off saying you are fine to work, drive, take care of children that is all it takes and no one else needs to know.

Yet, when a doctor signs off a child and says that they are fine to attend childcare, its throughly questioned to the point saying they just to that so the child can be put back into care, and it is up to the provider to determine if the child can come back.

Why shouldn't a parent/employer/passenger have that same right-to determine if they feel right/safe placing that child with the provider, hiring that employee, or riding in that car? Why shouldn't a person be able to make that choice for themselves. Why shouldn't they know there is an underlying medical condition/the person takes medication and have the choice for themselves in what ever the situation it is.

Funny, when its a childcare situation-everyone gets up in arms about a note from the doctor but when its about themselves/relatives its fine.


*****Willow, we were posting at the same time! Our minds must have been linked.

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Just wanted to say, love your screen name, AND thanks a lot for getting that song in my head!

*logged out for laziness*

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Of course I require a doctor's note...just as the state requires one saying that I am in good enough health to care for children.

I understand your point about being forthcoming with parents, and I don't disagree with it. That being said, I think it needs to be done with discretion and with the understanding that you are choosing to reveal personal information to a client (or potential client).

I am not on any narcotics now. I have been in the past, as a result of brain surgery and 50 staples in my head.

When I first interview with a family, I would not be comfortable revealing that I had (or have) narcotics in my home. I don't know these people...who is to say they aren't drug addicts who may decide to come and steal from me and my family? Who is to say they aren't town gossips who are going to spread my personal information around to anyone who will listen? It is private.

Licensing rules are the rules. If I am in compliance with the rules, then I am not diong anything wrong. Legally or ethically! I go well above and beyond for my families. I just believe that some things are personal, and that I have the right to keep them that way. I am professional and run a very good business. I would NEVER endanger the children I care for by withholding information that was dangerous in any way. I also wouldn't work with children if I was unable to do so safely.

I never used any sort of drug in the past, and never have since. It was for a medical issue. I think people are very quick to be judgemental and assume that a person who is on painkillers will end up an addict. It is a very unfair stereotype.

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I'm with you.....until I think of Marilyn, Elvis, Anna Nicole Smith, Heath Ledger, Michael Jackson...heck even my much beloved Derek Boogaard

All under the care of a doctor that wrote them prescriptions for legitimate conditions and monitored their health statuses.

All were by many accounts messed the heck up, so who was right? The people that saw them first hand in everyday life or the doctor that saw their patient for 20 minutes time?

All of them are dead. Most are notorious for their behaviors related to their prescription drugs.

I can unfortunately name several others in my own life who have met similar ends or who are on the same path. All would tell me "But my doctor....!!!!"

Fine. Do what you will with your own life......but when it comes to those individuals having responsibility over little ones? I believe there needs to be more than just "but my doctor says...."



OP's own FRIEND suggested she needs to disclose, perhaps that is a massive red flag she needs to consider heeding.

If I told my friends and family that I disclosed my anxiety disorders they'd think it ridiculous....unless it was impacting my life in a way I perhaps I wasn't more aware of.

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Also, most of the mentioned above actually had their doctors pretty much in their homes alot!!! Thats the sad thing-, they knew but just kept prescriping.

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This has nothing to do with fear of addiction.

It has everything to do with *impaired function*

My daughter had brain surgery last January (for the second time ). When she woke up she had a bird at my husband saying she hated him because he killed her unicorn.....in the days that followed on her pain meds she swore she saw dinosaurs out her windows and thought all her food was made out of "towels" because that's what it tasted like.

Legitimate condition, legitimate prescription meds, she wasn't on them but a week and surely wasn't addicted, still equated to impaired function.


Many people who are incredibly impaired on prescription drugs cannot see their impairment and can put on a 20 minute show in a doctor's office to pass as lucid.....I'm wondering in regards to them - how are doctors supposed to always know there is a problem?

I hope you know I'm not targeting your situation specifically when I speak but am considering the issue as a whole and am wondering, without disclosure to parents, how you weed out those individuals who do pose a risk to the children in their care?

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This is the part that offends me. I understand your concerns, considering all of the horror stories in the press and your own personal experiences; HOWEVER, not every person becomes addicted to medications that they truly need. With this attitude, you are perpetuating that stereotype, and it is unfair and hurtful to those people who have used these medications responsibly and only for the time needed.

When I was on these medications for pain management, I stopped taking them the first day that I felt my pain was manageable. The rest were flushed. I never became addicted in any way. And I never endangered a single child. To assume otherwise is wrong.

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How can you be sure that the people who care for children aren't drinking vodka in their orange juice? Or watching **** all day while the kids play? Or taking naps? I think there is ALWAYS a risk. That is why there is protocol in place from licensing.

I am not taking it personally (well, maybe a little ). I just think personal issues need to remain personal, if that is how the provider chooses to conduct her own personal business.

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Yeah but the difference there is most of those doctor's lost their license to practice because somewhere along the way their need for fame and/or fortune superceded their oath to do what is medically, ethically and morally right.

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You're not comparing apple's to apple's there.

If your doctor prescribed you vodka and orange juice or **** do you think parents should be notified, is what we're discussing here.

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Because licensing does NOT legally require the provider to disclose this information to clients

but as the law writer of MY business, the law (my policies) state the provider (me) has a right to exclude a child if I feel they shouldn't be in care.

That is comparing apples to oranges.

If licensing laws said I HAD to take a child into care because a doctor's said so, then I would have to do it but licensing laws say I get to decide what is best for me.

Licensing laws do NOT state that providers MUST disclose prescription drug use to parents.

I am arguing what the laws (licensing regulations) state we must do.

NOT what we should morally and/or ethically do.

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Not all, and only AFTER the fact. Even then most fought to keep their licenses arguing they personally did nothing wrong.

So parents should be kept in the dark *unless or until* someone dies??



I am arguing ethics here because we all know the legalities of this business are often so far off the right track they're often on another continent entirely....

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...or choose to stay home and care for their own child. For some the risks and liabilities of putting your child in daycare are far to great to take on....

hence the reason most of us are here

fwiw~ like I said above in another post, I probably have personal feelings about this but I am looking at it from a legal standpoint and if the law doesn't say you HAVE to disclose, I wouldn't.

If the law said we HAVE to then I would.

Neither of those changes my PERSONAL opinion as a mother or as a provider.

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I can agree with you there BC

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There are several places where as a mum I would want to know but as a caregiver I would hesitate to disclose in an interview situation.

If I was I'll and would possibly miss a lot of time I'd like to think I would be open with potential parents but in reality I would probably play the "not obligated to share" card.

Hypocritical, I know.

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As a provider, I would disclose.

As a parent, I would not leave my child/ren with any adult on pain management meds. We have family memebrs who are on them and don't leave our kids with them alone. We require another responsible, unmedicated adult there with them.

At least 2 family members are under "close" supervision of a doctor while on these meds and they both abuse them. So, for me, because of my personal experience with pain meds, I would not be comfortable with that at all.

Honestly, I wouldn't want my kids in a daycare that had them stored there anyway. The kids can easily get a hold of a patch in the trashcan or find a stray pill. It's not like an Advil or Tylenol. These meds can easily kill a kid in a few hours.

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I have 3 different opinions on this matter:

1 – I think daycare providers are too entitled to privacy and therefor you should only share with parents what is demanded by law and what you feel comfortable sharing.

2 – I would never leave my child with a solo provider that was under chronic pain medication.

3 – If I myself needed daily pain medication to perform in life, I would NEVER open a daycare!

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Question:

Providers don't have to disclose to parents if they are on meds. Providers feel they have that right per licensing not to tell parents.

Providers then say though: they wouldn't leave their child with a provider that is on prescription pain meds. How are you going to know if they don't disclose this to you?

See how it turns into a situation that can go sour very quickly. If a provider doesn't disclose this to the parents, then say something would happen, do the parents even have a case because legally the provider doesn't have to say anything.

How is a parent to make that choice if they aren't even given the chance to know their provider takes medication for something?

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I think that this is one of the many examples of how the parent's rights/needs/wants and the provider's rights/needs/wants are a conflict!!

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Parents have to simply trust that the provider is following the laws (of his/her state).

That is a risk they are choosing to take by placing their child in care.


For example:

How do your DC parents KNOW you aren't drinking mimosa's during the day while caring for their child?

They don't. But they trust that you aren't because the laws (licensing) says you can't.

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Worded perfectly-

I think a provider should always put the parent foot on also and think if this was me as a parent what would I want to happen and what would I feel comfortable with.

If we don't want our children with a provider that is on medication how can we say that we should not let parents know.

Yes, licensing says we don't have to but what happened to ethics/morals which are sometimes just as important as the licensing/law.

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I agree... and that's one of the reasons why I gave my #3 opinion - "If I myself needed daily pain medication to perform in life, I would NEVER open a daycare!".

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I wouldn't say anything personally. If you are licensed you are obviously able to care for the children and the state seems to think so. That's whats important. I am licensed and am/have been on meds for a long time, to manage my depression, anxiety and bipolar disorder. I don't think its any of my parents business what I take or when because it does NOT effect the kids I care for. No one needs to know my personal business. As long as its well managed I would keep it to yourself.

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Today, I don't have a clear opinion on this issue. I do want to comment on the above......

I agree people are quick to be judgmental. I don't think so in this case. I think that peoples own experiences with loved ones or someone they know, becoming addicted are what forms the judgment. I think it is ok to judge in this case. I will judge if I feel my child should be with someone that is taking heavy narcotics for illness. My prerogative to make that call in the best interest of my child. Knowing I would not. Fine today- Wacky tomorrow, or just knowing that med is in the home. People steal for those type of drugs and look for them. What if one got dropped on the floor? Not a risk I am willing to take with my innocent child that can't make an informed decision like I can. A whole slew of questions evolves over this issue and I am not sure if it is an issue that I want to deal with- You can be the best provider in the world- but when you know, you know and if I knew I would not leave my child with this situation. It is known that those type of drugs cause habit forming. So many people do become addicted, that yes I am strong on this as not being something I would want to have my young child knowingly exposed too.

BlackCat and any other Mod- I know that you know my personal information but if you ever used that against me or made that public information. I would be done with these boards for good. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure me out, I am queen of the run on sentence, and repeat of the same information. When I am in a hurry everything is just the way it comes out. I often type so fast that I skip a letter and then often times I am interrupted with this and that, so I start a response and don't finish it until later in the day. My kiddo's come first. I guess I am saying I don't know what the ruckus is about with mods saying they know who everyone is...... I am not the original poster. Anyway back to work for me.....ugh.....

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Agreed. I think global assumptions about medication, or any other personal choice, can lead to terrible stereotypes. As providers, we know what we can and canNOT handle. I am more than capable of making my own decision in regards to the safety of the children in my care. As long as I am not breaking any laws or going against licensing regulations, I can make my own decisions.

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doctors, judges, state workers are fooled daily by people that are using. People that are using know how to get more of these drugs to keep the addiction going. Unless blood work is done or urine test.....and even those can be altered-

Many can function daily in a job and use after hours.......but eventually it does catch up with the person. Addicts are all around us, in all jobs.

My advise to anyone looking for childcare is to ask your potential provider if they are on any heavy type of drugs, or any prescription drugs. They don't have to tell you, but at least you put it out there to try to know. If I found out someone was using heavy drugs after I started with them and had asked this, I would be pulling my child.

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I understand your point and I feel for you- but its not a risk that many parents want to take with their child and for many reasons. It is not wrong to be looking out for the best interest of your child.

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We all have fears based in our life experiences! Difference experiences, different opinions.

But I think there is something we all have in common – Most of us begun this career because we did not wanted to second guess if our child was safe and happy with a “X” or “Y” provider!! So we all in this thread at some point judged others to be unfit to take care of our own sons/daughters... and we all based our decision in different fears/experiences/opinions.

It's not to be taken personal or being judgmental... It's being mothers.

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I don't know how to say this without sounding bad but as a small business owner, I don't need to concern myself with what parents want.

I know if we all put the shoe on the other foot and started giving parents what they want we would be letting toddler's skip nap time, serving fast food, holding babies ALL day, never saying no or giving a time out and basically working FOR the parents.......

I own a business that sells a service. If you want to know more than what licensing requires me to tell you, then don't sign on with my program.

NO one is forcing anyone to do anything they don't want to do.

Parents don't HAVE to use child care.

Like I said to Willow, earlier......half of the providers on this forum do child care because they don't want to leave their child with someone else.

It has NOTHING to do with morals and ethics and EVERYTHING to do with laws and regulations.

If provider's being on drugs (prescription) were an issue or problem, I am sure our government would be lobbying for FULL disclosure and as of today, I don't think that is the case.

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I don't need you to feel for me, though it is appreciated. I am just fine.

I think that every parent should look out for what is best for their child ~ I guess that is why I am always full with a waiting list.

Forthe record, the parents who come to me all know about my medical issues. It is not something I disclose immediately, because it is private. I don't think every part of my life needs to be an open book at the first meeting, or the 53rd meeting. I run a professional business out of my home. That does not mean my home and everything in it is up for public knowledge and judgement.

I would never put a child in any sort of danger. Everyone has personal stories about people who became addicted, but that doesn't mean everyone who takes a pain med becomes addicted. That is just an unfair assumption to make.

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If we are talking about FULL disclosure and how is it immoral or unethical to not divulge this info to parents in our child care then why do we (providers here) have user names?

If we are ethically suppose to divulge all information about ourselves to parents who leave their children with us, then how come these same parents don't have a right to come on this forum and know who their provider is and what she says about them or their child?

If some providers are so concerned about being open and honest, then why have a user name and avatar?

Why aren't you stating WHO you are and WHERE you live?

What you say and write on this forum a lot of times DIRECTLY involves a person's child and the care they receive so why is that info not open and used freely on this forum?

Short answer? Because most of you wouldn't want a parent to read what you are saying about them but yet, you think we should tell them our personal info.... kind of a double standard....

*You* ~ general you NOT directed at anyone in particular.

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Well, what about providers who take medication for anxiety, or depression? Should a provider tell the parents they suffer from depression? Or anxiety attacks?

I've seen several posts on here where we (providers) do not think the parents should know if we are suffering from depression, because it's none of their business.

I would think a provider with depression or other similar illnesses would be more of a hazard to the children than pain killers.

*I don't really know anything about pain killers, or mood enhancing drugs. I've never researched them, or even had a long discussion about them...so, I am not saying I KNOW this... I'm just asking. What's the difference?

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Just wanted to respond to your comment about the MODS. I have been one on here for awhile now and I don't EVER use it so look at anyone's information.

I respect the fact that you logged out for a reason, I do the same when I want privacy. Even if I did take the time to search out who it is or was that is posting unregistered, again not my place to say anything. Personally, I give the same respect that I would want.

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Well the problem is that most pain medications alter not only your mood but your ability to do normal physical tasks such as lifting heavy objects and driving. Some of the depression/anxiety is not always prevalent, sometimes it is situational and there are different forms of it ranging from mild to severe. Everyone is susceptible to spouts of depression and anxiety at one point or another, it's a part of life- its not the fact that you have it chronically but how you manage it. Some people do fine on medication, some people do okay with just therapy, and some people do better with only changes to diet and exercise. Some pills do make depression/ anxiety worse, that is why I chose not to use them anymore because I was always on either end of the extremes where I was either a lifeless zombie (I literally had no emotions and could not think clearly) or I was even more anxious (I would wake up crying because I thought my heart was going to stop, like on the third day I took it), and that really made me depressed! My depression was never even that bad to begin with, it was mostly due to low-self esteem from being bullied/teased for my weight. I notice I do better when I go on regular walks (haven't done that in a while but will start up again this summer). And those of course are only my experiences and they are not typical for everyone who takes anti-depressants as everything depends on the person, I just have a low drug tolerance.

Usually depression/anxiety/bipolar disorder are caused by chemical imbalances in the brain, the medication is supposed to help balance the chemicals that are altering your mood. You can alter someone's mood with out totally altering their state of mind (though in some cases it can happen). In most cases pills for depression and anxiety are not meant to be taken long term, usually no more than 6 months to a year (because it is supposed to help "teach" your brain how to produce more serotonin on its own) because depression and anxiety are not always permanent states- you could be diagnosed depressed (or with anxiety) but still laugh once in a while and not be a suicidal shut in. Some anti-depressants don't need to be taken every day, only when the person is having a bad anxiety attack.

You could also be depressed/anxious and not be a danger to others. That is a big misconception of depression that you are automatically like a volcano that will erupt at the drop of a hat. Also depression is one of the most over diagnosed conditions and doctors just proscribe meds (as they do for other conditions as well) because it's cheaper than therapy (which tends to help out in more cases). Sometimes all you have to do is walk into a doctors office and say "I lost my job" or "my goldfish died" and they will say "you need drugs". Once I went to the doctor for a regular check up and I was fine, happy even (just started working at that FCC I always talked about)! The doctor just saw on my chart that I had depression (diagnosed over 3 years prior) and proscribed medications. That just made things worst.

My problem with the situation isn't so much about her taking the pain meds, it's more about her physical ability to be able to keep up with children and being able to assist a child who is in danger. Here if I were in a wheel chair You don't need to be skinny to do this type of work, but you do need to be fit enough to do it because working with kids is physically demanding and takes its toll- the back is usually the first thing to go! Having that "spine" or "backbone" everyone talks about needing on here isn't only for dealing with the parents.

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I think this is true in many cases, not only in choosing a child care provider. We, as parents, do this every time we hand our children off to someone else whether it is Little League or swim lessons. We interview the places and if we feel comfortable, we sign them up and leave their "care" to another person. We don't demand to know the medical history of everyone involved in our children's lives. We trust in the fact that we have made a good decision based on our parental instincts.

There are also other times that we hand our children off to people without knowing anything about them. I know many of the providers on this forum homeschool their children, but there are many others that "blindly" send their kids off to public school, having no idea what types of doctor approved medications the faculty and staff are taking, without so much as visiting the school in some cases. We even send them to and from school on the bus not knowing anything about the bus driver.

I think it is a privacy issue for the provider and they should not have to disclose any medical information unless they want to.

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Are you saying that a provider in a wheel chair would not be capable of providing care for a child?

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This is a very interesting topic and it really makes you think. I feel like we as providers deserve privacy regarding our medical lives and other personal matters as long as it does not endanger a child or potentially endanger them.

I personally wouldn't leave my child with anyone who used pain medication, or anything with side effects similar to them, regardless of the individuals tolerance level. If I were a doctor or the licensening agent I also wouldn't take the liability of clearing a person taking those medications because that seems like a big risk.

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There are wide variances of ability of people who are in wheelchairs. Is the person you referring to quadriplegic or only a paraplegic? Do they just have problems baring weight on their feet for too long? Are they amputees who just need the chair to get around in longer distances? Are they otherwise healthy?

There are lots of parents in wheel chairs and with other physical disabilities who care for their own children. In many (not saying all) cases they sometimes need to have someone or someone who could do things for them that they cannot do on their own. I currently am a mother's helper for a family with a stay at home mom and grandma, I usually watch when the mom is out and the grandma is home because she cannot lift her very light (for his age) 2 year old grandson (she's in her 60's/70's and has a bad back).

If there was a provider in a wheel chair who is able to pick infants/toddler up from the floor because they have done exercises/therapy to specifically strengthen their backs and arms to be able to lift small children, if he/she was able to transport themselves from the wheelchair to another chair (or to the floor) unassisted, or if she only cared for older children that is one thing. If they are paralyzed from the neck down, then I would be uncomfortable leaving a small child in their care, if they are alone. But in many cases it can cause other issues if the home or facility is not properly equipped or arranged for regular mobility of an adult in a wheelchair to move around- such as if the door ways are not big enough for the chair to pass- that is a safety hazard!

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You're previous post about being in a wheelchair implied that you think being in a wheelchair would automatically mean that person couldn't be a provider.

I was simply asking for clarification as I thought that statement was offensive to providers in wheelchairs who do do their jobs well.

..not sure what you are trying to convey in regards to the family you are a mother's helper to.. (???)

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My main point was that she said she had back pain and I know many people who have worked years with children and they have back problems so this does not seem like a good career choice as far as her health goes. And age groups are a big factor to. I think I would be more likely to leave an older child in her care but not a younger one who would need to be lifted regularly. But if I knew a particular older child was prone to mindless behavior like jumping on people without warning (as one child did to my aunt) or running away/across the street (needing to be chased), that would be a big health risk for her. This area is very gray, it depends on multiple factors. I would not discriminate against that person only on their disability but I would take it into serious account and weight the risks and other pros and cons- just as I would with any other person.

I was just saying that the mom I help out knows that if something happened when she was not their that grandma would not be able to help or stop him; like if he was jumping on the furniture or if he got out of the house and ran across the street- one kid at the FCC I worked at actually got out of the gate once because one of the DCMs didn't close the gate fast enough and the other assistant who was actually working wasn't paying attention to that side of the yard (I was just visiting/helping out off the clock for the day). I just barely noticed it and I had to chase him across the front lawn just barely caught him before he hit the sidewalk!

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First thing to do is discuss your capabilities with your MD. If your MD feels that the meds at your dosage do not pose an issue, then give a call to licensing and ask what their views on it are. I had to provide a list of medications to the state before I could be licensed.

Not all drugs have severe side effects, and not all patients experience them. I gave up on narcotics for pain years ago, because I found no relief with them. I switched to meloxicam...it takes the edge off, without impairment. I don't know your situation, but perhaps a different medication would be in order IF yours poses a problem.

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I totally agree. As long as you are cleared, you do not have to disclose anything. That would be like if one the children you care for have HIV/Aids or some other bad disease..the parent's do NOT have to disclose that to you. Just my two cents.

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I was just discussing this topic with my husband, he made the very same point! I once worked in a school and we knew one child in the building was HIV positive...but never knew which one. It violated his/her rights.

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As I mentioned earlier, my son is an addict to prescription pain meds. I've watched him, his behaviors, his highs and lows, his withdrawls, his attitudes and behaviors and what I saw was, many times when I thought he was flying high on pain killers.

We talk about his addiction a lot, but just recently he informed me that when he is acting more 'normal' is actually when he has taken a lot of the pain meds. It's when he DOESN'T have them that he seems out of it...HOWEVER, I do know when he is using that it definitely impairs his ability to reason, think clearly and react quickly. He has a quick temper and no patience.

Even with his heavy use, he BELIEVES he is fine, that he is in control when he is using. Once a person's body becomes used to having the meds in their system, they really don't realize what they are, and are not capable of mentally.

Many people have mentioned other illnesses for which they use other medications for. THOSE are not narcotics...huge difference.

I absolutely will not take a pain killer because of everything I've gone through with my son. I detest those little pills with a passion. Those little pills DESTROYED my entire family...just by one person using them (actually 2 as you read further).

I am NOT saying that everyone who uses pain killers will become addicted to them. Yes, I have used them in the past very minimally, such as when I had shingles and had a tooth removed...and I also have fibromyalgia, which at one point was very debilitating and I had to use pain meds for (and YES...they did impair my ability to think clearly). If I became ill enough again to have to use them, there is no way I could do childcare. I never knew what kind of condition I would wake up in each morning, what level of pain I would be in, whether I could even walk through the grocery store long enough to buy groceries.

My fibromyalgia is manageable now and I do still have pain, but not to any degree to where I feel the need to use pain meds (that may change down the road but my pain would have to be pretty severe now for me to touch one of them)

I do not judge anybody for taking them legitimately...however, there is really no way to visually determine who is taking them only as prescribed, and who is taking them abusively. Personally, I don't want to take the chance at finding out AGAIN who that person might be. I say AGAIN, because my other son was killed in an auto accident 3 years ago as a passenger in a car being driven by a guy who was under the influence of pain meds.

He was charged with 'CAUSING DEATH WHILE UNDER THE INFLUENCE' and spent 3 years in prison...just released one month ago.

Absolutely, it's nobody's business what your medical conditions are, or what medications you are using. But as a parent, they should have the knowledge to be able to make an informed decision as to whether they want their child in your care or not, just as you feel you should know the medical condition of a child coming into your care and what medications they might be on if they're going to be with you.

This subject hits very close to my heart, and as I also said earlier in my first post, it's not meant to demean anyone. Narcotics are a HUGE influence in today's society...they are not selective as to who they take into their hell.

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I think the wheelchair example is a bit different because it is a visible disability that the parent could rightly or wrongly make a decision based on whether they want their child cared for by someone who is physically impaired in some way.

The same as if they showed up to an interview and the provider was morbidly obese. They could make a decision based on whether they felt someone with mobility issues could chase after a busy two year old let alone several of them.

The little boy who drowned in my province a few years ago was being cared for by a very obese woman. Her young daughter testified that the woman stood up from her lawn chair asked the daughter where he was and then sat back down. In other words she knew that he wasn't within arms reach and yet she opted to let a child track him down rather than expend the energy to go look for him.

There are many judgments that are made on first impression and I think deliberately concealing something just because it isn't visible is starting your relationship off on the wrong foot- whether it is your right or not.

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just wanted to give you one of these

It is our experiences that can make us so passionate about subjects and along with that comes knowledge. Everyone's comfort level also weighs in here. If your directly affected by this your comfortable level will most likely change, even more so above your knowledge level.

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