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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Another Sleep Question About Co-sleepers
TheirEmi 09:14 AM 03-20-2013
I keep 2 infants ages 9 months and 5 months (who weighs 25 freaking
pounds!).

They cosleep at home....one out of AP(he nurses every 2 hours thru the night). ,and one (my niece's baby)out of laziness.

I've been bouncing them both to sleep in a bouncer and sitting with them as they sleep....

I put up the pnp's yesterday and plan to work on getting them to self soothe.

How do I do this? The 5mo is going to freak out!

I always tell them it is nap time and have a loud white noise going so they "know" the nap time cues.
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Heidi 09:20 AM 03-20-2013
Unlike my pp about my 12-week old, I am very practiced with older infants...

Do what you're doing. Both should probably be on 2 naps now. An hour in the am, 2 or longer in the afternoon.

I usually use the sleep-training method. If upset, go in at intervals and pat gently, whisper "it's nap time", don't pick up. That works with most kiddos, but I've had a couple where going back in just pissed 'em off more, so they CIO'd.

Consistency is the key. Mine go down right after breakfast at 9, then again right after lunch at 12 ish. Same routine each time...eat, then talk about how now everyone is going nighty-night. Then, say good night to your friends, and I sing an innane song I made up..."nighty night"...on the way to bed. Kiss...blanket...walk away. When nap time is over...I get them up (only morning nap). Oh...good morning, it's time to PLAY! added: Afternoon nap, I never cut short, unless they are 3+ year olds.
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youretooloud 09:28 AM 03-20-2013
Yep, go for consistency. I have a few kids who cosleep at home, but I got them young enough that they were fine sleeping alone in a room.

I have one kid who is almost three and co sleeps. When he first started, he flipped out...but, then I put his bed between two other beds, and had no problems again.
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Springdaze 09:31 AM 03-20-2013
I had a little boy who was 7 mos when he started. he had to be rocked to sleep when he started and I had another the same age so that wasn't happening. I put him down and let him sleep on his own and eventually he did. they figure it out, you just have to not give in!
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frgsonmysox 10:32 AM 03-22-2013
Make sure you tell the parents BEFORE you sleep train, especially the AP one. APers don' tend to sleep train and I would be livid if someone was doing that to my child. Give them a chance to leave your care first.
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Evansmom 11:11 AM 03-22-2013
APer's differ tho in the way they interpret the philosophy so the APing family might be ok with some of what you're doing. Like if you are attentive in comforting the child but not pick them up it wouldn't be considered to some as sleep training. I look at it more as commiserating. You're affirming that the child is sad and it's ok to be sad. Patting the child and talking soothingly is comfort. So yeah, run it by the APing family but I don't think it's a for sure thing they would leave bc if it.

Just my 2 cents
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lovemykidstoo 11:33 AM 03-22-2013
Okay, what is an AP?
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Evansmom 11:40 AM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
Okay, what is an AP?
AP or Attachment Parenting is a parenting philosophy and style that focuses on and promotes the all important bond between parents and their children. If you google the term Attachment Parenting you can read about it more.

It's also for some reason a currently polarizing issue in our culture. Some view it as too extreme and those who practice it have very strong feelings about it as well.

I guess I should add that I'm am APer who was practicing it way back 20 years ago before I'd ever heard a name for it. It just came naturally to me
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lovemykidstoo 11:43 AM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Evansmom:
AP or Attachment Parenting is a parenting philosophy and style that focuses on and promotes the all important bond between parents and their children. If you google the term Attachment Parenting you can read about it more.

It's also for some reason a currently polarizing issue in our culture. Some view it as too extreme and those who practice it have very strong feelings about it as well.

I guess I should add that I'm am APer who was practicing it way back 20 years ago before I'd ever heard a name for it. It just came naturally to me
ok thanks, I have heard of that, just didnt' realize what the ap stood for. so why would the parents be upset if the dcp put the baby in a pnp? what would be the other option in a daycare setting?
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MsLaura529 11:43 AM 03-22-2013
attachment parenting

Oops, my page didn't refresh by the time I made it down to the question, haha.
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Evansmom 11:48 AM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
ok thanks, I have heard of that, just didnt' realize what the ap stood for. so why would the parents be upset if the dcp put the baby in a pnp? what would be the other option in a daycare setting?
It's hard to say bc each parent who practices AP is different. But I think the previous posters were referring to letting the infant cry it out as being upsetting to the parents not the pnp itself.
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lovemykidstoo 11:55 AM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Evansmom:
It's hard to say bc each parent who practices AP is different. But I think the previous posters were referring to letting the infant cry it out as being upsetting to the parents not the pnp itself.
Well what else could the provider do other than go in there and comfort the child. It's not like she can carry him/her around all day. I guess I haven't run into this yet, thankfully!
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Evansmom 11:59 AM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
Well what else could the provider do other than go in there and comfort the child. It's not like she can carry him/her around all day. I guess I haven't run into this yet, thankfully!
It is a really tough situation. There are no hard and fast rules or answers. Caregivers and parents just need to work together and communicate so they can figure out what works best for everyone involved.
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littlemissmuffet 12:06 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Make sure you tell the parents BEFORE you sleep train, especially the AP one. APers don' tend to sleep train and I would be livid if someone was doing that to my child. Give them a chance to leave your care first.
This is something the parents should have discussed with the provider during the interview. I do not discuss changes in nap or routine with my parents ever. I don't even tell my parents when a kid graduates from a crib to a nap mat. Nobody's ever asked either.
I think if a parent wants their child "raised" a certain way in a daycare, they need to talk about this before they enroll their child and give the provider a chance to agree to it or pass them up!
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lovemykidstoo 12:06 PM 03-22-2013
Well I saw that Frogsonmysox said she would be livid if it was her child, so I was just wonderng what she thought the provider should do.
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blandino 12:14 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Make sure you tell the parents BEFORE you sleep train, especially the AP one. APers don' tend to sleep train and I would be livid if someone was doing that to my child. Give them a chance to leave your care first.
To me I would assume that unless a parent is told otherwise, that the daycare will use sleep training. Even if I practiced AP, unless my daycare told me that they would AP also - I think it would be a fair assumption that most daycares allow children to put themselves to sleep. Maybe I am wrong in that assumption, but most daycare providers I know sleep train, and don't inform the parents (not on purpose) but just because we think of it as a given.
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lovemykidstoo 12:17 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Make sure you tell the parents BEFORE you sleep train, especially the AP one. APers don' tend to sleep train and I would be livid if someone was doing that to my child. Give them a chance to leave your care first.
In your opinion, what should the dcp do with this child as far as sleeping goes?
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frgsonmysox 12:38 PM 03-22-2013
In the two centers I worked at, at the home where I was a private nanny, and in my own home with my children and my daycare kids its always been against the rules to sleep train and CIO. CIO has been shown to cause damage to kids, and thats why us APers are completely against it (well, most APers, but I've never really met one that was for it). We always held and comforted an upset baby, talked to and comforted an upset toddler. The older kids never had issues. The workers may have grumbled but it was the rules because of the stress of CIO.

In my home I have never used CIO, not with any of my 5 kids. All but the baby go to sleep on their own without a single issue, and all know that I will respond immediately if there is. They know they can sleep without me because they have proof that if they do I won't just leave them hanging (and touch, comfort, being held, ect are all needs, not wants).

In my daycare, same thing. We all nap in the same room. Me with all the babies so I can provide them all touch, and what they need, the toddlers on the outskirts, and the older kids on the outside areas. Never has a child ever needed to cry it out in my home.

It IS something that should be told to parents. A lot of parents are against CIO. I would seriously be livid over it happening, and it would cause me a LOT of trust issues with daycare providers. I would expect that was something discussed. I've discussed all of this with my interviews. We use AP principles in this house, with our kids and with daycare kids. If someone doesn't like that we let them know up front that in this house it happens and we may not be the fit for them.
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littlemissmuffet 12:50 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
In the two centers I worked at, at the home where I was a private nanny, and in my own home with my children and my daycare kids its always been against the rules to sleep train and CIO. CIO has been shown to cause damage to kids, and thats why us APers are completely against it (well, most APers, but I've never really met one that was for it). We always held and comforted an upset baby, talked to and comforted an upset toddler. The older kids never had issues. The workers may have grumbled but it was the rules because of the stress of CIO.

In my home I have never used CIO, not with any of my 5 kids. All but the baby go to sleep on their own without a single issue, and all know that I will respond immediately if there is. They know they can sleep without me because they have proof that if they do I won't just leave them hanging (and touch, comfort, being held, ect are all needs, not wants).

In my daycare, same thing. We all nap in the same room. Me with all the babies so I can provide them all touch, and what they need, the toddlers on the outskirts, and the older kids on the outside areas. Never has a child ever needed to cry it out in my home.

It IS something that should be told to parents. A lot of parents are against CIO. I would seriously be livid over it happening, and it would cause me a LOT of trust issues with daycare providers. I would expect that was something discussed. I've discussed all of this with my interviews. We use AP principles in this house, with our kids and with daycare kids. If someone doesn't like that we let them know up front that in this house it happens and we may not be the fit for them.
Sorry but if an AP parent wants an AP daycare that's their responsibility to seek out by ensuring their provider can/will work within the type of care they want for their kid. AP daycares are unheard of in my area - so for a parent to ASSUME that AP sleep techniques would be used in a group setting is ridiculous. It's a PARENT'S responsibility to ask questions in order to find the right care for them.

As for the CIO causing damage - I don't know anybody who wasn't CIOed as kids and we're all fine and love our parents and have normal relationships
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blandino 01:01 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
In the two centers I worked at, at the home where I was a private nanny, and in my own home with my children and my daycare kids its always been against the rules to sleep train and CIO. CIO has been shown to cause damage to kids, and thats why us APers are completely against it (well, most APers, but I've never really met one that was for it). We always held and comforted an upset baby, talked to and comforted an upset toddler. The older kids never had issues. The workers may have grumbled but it was the rules because of the stress of CIO.

In my home I have never used CIO, not with any of my 5 kids. All but the baby go to sleep on their own without a single issue, and all know that I will respond immediately if there is. They know they can sleep without me because they have proof that if they do I won't just leave them hanging (and touch, comfort, being held, ect are all needs, not wants).

In my daycare, same thing. We all nap in the same room. Me with all the babies so I can provide them all touch, and what they need, the toddlers on the outskirts, and the older kids on the outside areas. Never has a child ever needed to cry it out in my home.

It IS something that should be told to parents. A lot of parents are against CIO. I would seriously be livid over it happening, and it would cause me a LOT of trust issues with daycare providers. I would expect that was something discussed. I've discussed all of this with my interviews. We use AP principles in this house, with our kids and with daycare kids. If someone doesn't like that we let them know up front that in this house it happens and we may not be the fit for them.
If a parent asks me how we put them to sleep, I am completely honest. But in my experience, in 10 years - we have seen more parents have been for CIO than against it. I have heard of centers practicing both ways, just depending on the owners/directors style.

Of course we do everything possible to avoid letting a baby cry, sometimes that is what we do. I have just always considered it a necessary evil of daycare, and trying to manage multiple children at once. Their individual needs are hard to meet immediately when multiple children are being cared for. So while we try and avoid it, there are times when it happens.

We do cater to a very different clientele then AP. We have a lot of "baby-wise" parents and most who allow their children to put themselves to sleep at night. So it really hasn't been a problem for us. One parent we have right now, practices slight AP at home but is well aware that we put baby to sleep awake (when at home she is rocked or nursed to sleep) and they don't have a problem with it.

Different strokes for different folks
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blandino 01:02 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
Sorry but if an AP parent wants an AP daycare that's their responsibility to seek out by ensuring their provider can/will work within the type of care they want for their kid. AP daycares are unheard of in my area - so for a parent to ASSUME that AP sleep techniques would be used in a group setting is ridiculous. It's a PARENT'S responsibility to ask questions in order to find the right care for them.

As for the CIO causing damage - I don't know anybody who wasn't CIOed as kids and we're all fine and love our parents and have normal relationships

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frgsonmysox 01:20 PM 03-22-2013
Yes, an AP parent should find an AP daycare, but as a parent I wouldn't assume anyone would ever let my child just cry themselves to cry to sleep, so as a daycare provider it's your responsibility to disclose that as well. I tell all my parents we do NOT CIO in my home, and if they wish to do that then I'm not the right provider for them. As a parent, it may escape my mind to ask about it as it's not something I don't really think about for my kids anyway, and my entire friend base is AP also so its just how it's always been done. For that reason it should be written or verbalized somewhere. Sleep training is a big deal. And for APers it's a huge deal.

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/cryin...in-damage.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-crying-it-out

Seriously, thinking about the way I would feel if I knew my son was crying it out, I can't express the anger and sadness I'd feel, so whether you agree with CIO or not is not the point. The point is it's the right thing to inform the parent FIRST.
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blandino 01:27 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Yes, an AP parent should find an AP daycare, but as a parent I wouldn't assume anyone would ever let my child just cry themselves to cry to sleep, so as a daycare provider it's your responsibility to disclose that as well. I tell all my parents we do NOT CIO in my home, and if they wish to do that then I'm not the right provider for them. As a parent, it may escape my mind to ask about it as it's not something I don't really think about for my kids anyway, and my entire friend base is AP also so its just how it's always been done. For that reason it should be written or verbalized somewhere. Sleep training is a big deal. And for APers it's a huge deal.

http://www.drmomma.org/2009/12/cryin...in-damage.html

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...-crying-it-out

Seriously, thinking about the way I would feel if I knew my son was crying it out, I can't express the anger and sadness I'd feel, so whether Uyou agree with CIO or not is not the point. The point is it's the right thing to inform the parent FIRST.
I really think that because you are AP based, and maybe AP is popular with your social group too ? That is why you don't think of CIO as a common thing - but I would place a pretty hefty bet that way more than 50% of daycare providers use it. To me a parent should expect that putting their child in group care, that all their needs will not be met immediately. To me that is pretty standard. Now I am not saying that most daycares are letting these babies scream for 30 + minutes, but are they letting them fuss to sleep - I would say absolutely.

Whether or not I agree with CIO isn't the issues, to me it is a necessary evil of group care, and should be expected in a group care situation.

Just to note, I am referring to home daycare providers and not Commercial daycare centers.
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lovemykidstoo 01:28 PM 03-22-2013
I guess I'm learning as I read here. With AP, do you mean that you hold each child until they fall asleep and then put them to bed or is it just that when they cry you go in and comfort them by talking softly or rubbing their back etc? I would think in my case where I'm licensed for 6 that it would be literally impossible to rock each child to sleep before putting them in bed if that's what you mean.

Also, my daughter when she was about 18 months went through a phase where she would cry when going to sleep. We tried everything, but finally had to just let her cry it out. It took about 5 days and she figured it out. She is 12 now and has no problems whatsoever.
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lovemykidstoo 01:35 PM 03-22-2013
This is a quote from the first article with the link above.

"Allowing a baby to “cry it out” when they are upset will probably be regarded as child abuse by future generations."


wow really?
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Lavender 01:35 PM 03-22-2013
I've never worked at a daycare that practiced CIO methods. I've only worked in centers that provide soothing ways to help a child go to sleep (patting, rocking with the 2-3 months old set, other things as we learn what each baby responds to best) while also helping the children learn ways to go to sleep on their own without having to cry themselves to sleep. No daycare I ever worked at was an "AP" center either.
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Patches 01:44 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
As a parent, it may escape my mind to ask about it as it's not something I don't really think about for my kids anyway, and my entire friend base is AP also so its just how it's always been done. .
NOT trying to attack you, but I think this goes both ways. As a provider, it may slip our mind, too, to mention if we use CIO or not, because maybe "it's just how it's always been done" for us kwim?
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frgsonmysox 01:48 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Lavender:
I've never worked at a daycare that practiced CIO methods. I've only worked in centers that provide soothing ways to help a child go to sleep (patting, rocking with the 2-3 months old set, other things as we learn what each baby responds to best) while also helping the children learn ways to go to sleep on their own without having to cry themselves to sleep. No daycare I ever worked at was an "AP" center either.

QFT!

None of my daycare centers were AP. In fact, one was run by a very conservative, "traditional" parenting lady who was my boyfriends mother. I knew the family well and they were not AP. But still, no child was ALLOWED to cry for any length of time without response. This was especially true in the nap room where we had up to 50 kids at times napping. There were only 3 or 4 of us on duty during naptime and we never let a child cry themselves to sleep.

Like I said - It does NOT matter what YOUR philosophy on sleep is. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure the parents are aware of what you are doing with their children, especially something as controversial as CIO BEFORE you do it.

It's not always easy to parent or care for children in an AP manner, and it takes a lot of patience, but for those of us who choose this method of child care it's vitally important. I would venture to say that most APers may claim this is the most important part of the AP relationship. Never met an APer who wasn't against crying it out.
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frgsonmysox 01:50 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Patches:
NOT trying to attack you, but I think this goes both ways. As a provider, it may slip our mind, too, to mention if we use CIO or not, because maybe "it's just how it's always been done" for us kwim?
Yes, but for us this is a business. It's our job to make sure the parents KNOW what they are signing up for. For them, they are scared and nervous to put their child in the care of someone they don't know. Sometimes things slip their mind. As I walk around on the tour I discuss EVERYTHING in each location, so when I'm talking about naptime I explain that we don't practice CIO, which generally the parents go "Oh, I know!" because I advertise that we are an AP based daycare.
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nannyde 01:50 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by littlemissmuffet:
Sorry but if an AP parent wants an AP daycare that's their responsibility to seek out by ensuring their provider can/will work within the type of care they want for their kid. AP daycares are unheard of in my area - so for a parent to ASSUME that AP sleep techniques would be used in a group setting is ridiculous. It's a PARENT'S responsibility to ask questions in order to find the right care for them.

As for the CIO causing damage - I don't know anybody who wasn't CIOed as kids and we're all fine and love our parents and have normal relationships :rolleyes:
I'm so fortunate to have had many years of experience before the ap theories became part of the discussion in evaluating child care. I remember when the Ferber method was debated on tv shows :-)

I've seen many methods come and go so I don't get too bent when presented with the popular parenting techniques. I'm confident with the awesome outcome of good CARE... lots of face time...good food... good exercise... good DEEP sleep... good supervision.. and good lovin. The successful parents I've had the pleasure to know and work with had those qualities. If they can accomplish that with ap techniques then that is great. If they use different methods and accomplish that then that is great too.

The only thing that I have seen consistently with entrenched ap parents is that they are tired and are more likely to report more awakening at nights and more instances of their child doing nap refusals. I've also seen a longer time from birth to toddlerhood of when they report the child sleeping through the night.

That's just my experience in the last five years or so with my dc clients, friends, and family who ascribe to ap.
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littlemissmuffet 02:03 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Yes, but for us this is a business. It's our job to make sure the parents KNOW what they are signing up for. For them, they are scared and nervous to put their child in the care of someone they don't know. Sometimes things slip their mind. As I walk around on the tour I discuss EVERYTHING in each location, so when I'm talking about naptime I explain that we don't practice CIO, which generally the parents go "Oh, I know!" because I advertise that we are an AP based daycare.
NO! It's a PARENT'S RESPONSIBILITY to know who is caring for their child and how their child is being cared for. I don't care what the topic/issue is (naps, meals, play, pick ups, etc)... it's a parent's responsbility to ask questions, do research, etc.
I explain how I operate during an interview, yes - but unless I'm asked, I would never mention that I have children CIO - this is what is normal for me... I didn't even know about AP until very recently and it's not something that is commonly practiced at daycares here. I don't feel it's my responsibility to mention this to parents as it's the NORM.
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Patches 02:05 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
Yes, but for us this is a business. It's our job to make sure the parents KNOW what they are signing up for. For them, they are scared and nervous to put their child in the care of someone they don't know. Sometimes things slip their mind. As I walk around on the tour I discuss EVERYTHING in each location, so when I'm talking about naptime I explain that we don't practice CIO, which generally the parents go "Oh, I know!" because I advertise that we are an AP based daycare.
Yes, and for them, it is their children. I still think it's a two way street. I know we are ALL human and things slip ALL of our minds but if it is THAT important to a parent they will bring it up. If they forget, they can ask later. As long as the lines of communication stay open between the parent and caregiver, then it should be fine. JMO
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Heidi 02:35 PM 03-22-2013
From my parent handbook:

Placing babies to sleep in a crib or playpen when they are tired but still awake encourages peaceful (and self-controlled) sleep patterns, now and in the future. Holding, rocking, feeding or similar methods of movement to "help" an infant sleep only promotes dependence on a parent or caregiver and may create sleeping and soothing issues as your child matures. In a daycare setting, rocking an infant to sleep while supervising several others is not really feasible. We will work together to teach your baby “sleep skills” in a loving way.

I want to emphasize the last part, because there is a HUGE difference between CIO and sleep training. Never in all my years have I stuck a wide-awake infant in a bed, said "it's nap time", walked away, and left them crying for several hours. I've never, ever had to.

I'm not running a foreign orphanage here, where I have 40 babies to care for. But, no one child's needs are more important than anothers, nor are they more important than my own. We are a family, and everyone here counts. So, I gently teach them to sleep on their own, because that's what I've learned makes all of us the happiest in the long run.

Froggysox, I think you are an awesome lady, and I totally admire the labor-of-love you are doing. I could not do it, honestly. Also, I would not be allowed lay down with my bunch. It's against our regs here. Thankfully..lol...I don't even have to consider it. I don't know when I'd get anything else done. Naptime is when I clean, do my classwork, plan activities, and chill.
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youretooloud 02:55 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
its always been against the rules to sleep train and CIO.

I was always taught that "sleep training" is NOT cry it out. Cry it out, is just cry it out. Sleep training is teaching a child that he or she can sleep by himself.

I am very AP too, but I think most (not all) babies with problems sleeping are because the parents created a sleep problem. I raised two kids who slept through the night by six weeks, and not once did I ever let them cry. Never. If they cried, I was in there right away. But, I never had a kid who would wake up two and three times a night. (or more)

Even with daycare kids, which I know is entirely different, all the babies just go to bed at the same time as every other kid in the house. They like to go to bed. They go to bed awake, they fall asleep, wake a few hours later, and are happy to be awake later on. It's not the same for them at home though... and Yes, I realize home and daycare are completely different. Home is a long night, mom is there, I get that. But, I still think most kids can be sleep trained from the beginning and without crying.
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blandino 02:56 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
From my parent handbook:

Placing babies to sleep in a crib or playpen when they are tired but still awake encourages peaceful (and self-controlled) sleep patterns, now and in the future. Holding, rocking, feeding or similar methods of movement to "help" an infant sleep only promotes dependence on a parent or caregiver and may create sleeping and soothing issues as your child matures. In a daycare setting, rocking an infant to sleep while supervising several others is not really feasible. We will work together to teach your baby “sleep skills” in a loving way.

I want to emphasize the last part, because there is a HUGE difference between CIO and sleep training. Never in all my years have I stuck a wide-awake infant in a bed, said "it's nap time", walked away, and left them crying for several hours. I've never, ever had to.

I'm not running a foreign orphanage here, where I have 40 babies to care for. But, no one child's needs are more important than anothers, nor are they more important than my own. We are a family, and everyone here counts. So, I gently teach them to sleep on their own, because that's what I've learned makes all of us the happiest in the long run.

Yes !! That is exactly what we do. Couldn't have said it better.
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Heidi 03:09 PM 03-22-2013
I really, really, have not read the research on the negative affects of crying. I probably should. I've seen a little-enough to know that some believe it harmful. But, how much crying are we talking about?

I don't understand the "no cry" position much at all. I respect it, but I don't "get" it. kwim?

Between any 2 extremes, there is usually a good balance. "No Cry" is one extreme to me, a Russian Orphanage is another.

I personally think babies need to cry sometimes, just like I do. For me, a "good cry" can be very cleansing. For babies, crying briefly can be the same way. It's also the main way they communicate what they need. Most caregivers can tell a hungry cry from a tired cry pretty quickly. And sometimes, it's a cleansing cry, too.

Why isn't a baby allowed to cry once in a while? Not hours of being ignored, but a few minutes of fussing to wind down for nap? Aren't they entitled to feel what they need to feel? Or are only "good" feelings allowed? What if a baby sees you eating a poptart, and cries for that? Give her the poptart? Ok...most APer's probably won't be eating poptarts...lol.

But, sooner or later, you're going to say "No" to something, and sooner or later, kiddo isn't going to like that answer. I'd much prefer to teach my kids that sometimes, you don't get what you want (or even need), and sometimes, it's okay to cry about it, but heck...you're still ok.

I make it very clear to my dcp's about what I do here. This is something I've added to my handbook, because honestly, 22 years ago when I started this, it wasn't even a consideration. But, over the years it has come up, and I want parents to know that if they choose me, they'll get a whole lot of wonderful, but they are not getting AP parenting. So, they can either teach their child to sleep independently, or the tough-love will happen here.
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MotherNature 03:33 PM 03-22-2013
Personally, I ask the parents about their family's routines & discuss what our routine here looks like & see if we're a match or could be with a little work. I'm an AP-er too, & cosleep w/ my 2 year old. I also would be furious if a provider left my son to CIO, but I would've asked the question from the get-go. If their beliefs were not in line with mine, I'd thank them for their time & keep looking.
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nannyde 03:38 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:
In my daycare, same thing. We all nap in the same room. Me with all the babies so I can provide them all touch, and what they need, the toddlers on the outskirts, and the older kids on the outside areas.
I can't imagine doing that for a living. I dig my naptime. I love being able to relax, visit on the phone, check my boards, and watch my shows.

I put my whole crew to bed at the same time with fresh diapers, full belly, tired body, WIDE AWAKE, after a squeeze and a lovin... then lights out! Pitch black dark room.... Within five minutes they are all zoinked out and sleep like babies. I check the nursery about every ten minutes and they sleep right through it.

There's no amount of money that would pay me to be in the same room for nap. By the time they go down I'm ready for a BIG break.

I couldn't do what you do for a day much less for a living. I would go crazy and be bored out of my mind. I live in a state that doesn't require that we watch kids sleep in the same room. We are required to provide careful supervision at all times but we decide what that is.

I love nap and I love rested kids.
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youretooloud 03:53 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by nannyde:
I put my whole crew to bed at the same time with fresh diapers, full belly, tired body, WIDE AWAKE, after a squeeze and a lovin..


There's no amount of money that would pay me to be in the same room for nap. By the time they go down I'm ready for a BIG break.
Yep...they all nap at the same time, then I go chill out alone in another room.
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Lawson2 04:58 PM 03-22-2013
I am not for or against AP, I believe to each their own and it is none of my business how anyone parents. With that being said...
I have an acquaintance who is an AP parent. She co-sleeps and breast-feeds her 5 year old daughter. She is very judgmental and very quick to "correct" the way other people parent (including me). She is always preaching to me about some parenting advice she has read in an article or book. What I should and shouldn't be doing.... So, she basically throws AP parenting down my throat. Yet, she complains she never gets a break. She has to go to bed when her daughter does and sneak out when she falls asleep. She also complains about getting kicked every night and not getting a good night sleep. If they go out for a night, their child is anxious and will wait up until they get home (so she ends up staying up til 12am). These are statements out of this mother's mouth, not mine. She also sends me articles on how detrimental crying it out is to a child's health.
Now, I have been watching children for 15 years. Years ago (long before I had my own child), I would see kids who would sleep like a charm. We would read stories and I would give them a hug goodnight- and that would be it. Then I would sit for kids that had no bedtime routine. It was a disaster. So I knew that when I had my own child, I would let them cry it out and put them on a routine. I did that with my son and he sleeps great! Putting him on a sleep routine was not some horrific, traumatic event. When he was old enough, we let him fuss a bit and he would eventually fall asleep (no, this was not hours on end). He sleeps well for us, sitters, and his Grandparents. I think this is a lot healthier/less traumatic than the women whose daughter has a breakdown if she is left alone.
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...
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sahm1225 05:09 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Heidi:
I really, really, have not read the research on the negative affects of crying. I probably should. I've seen a little-enough to know that some believe it harmful. But, how much crying are we talking about?

I don't understand the "no cry" position much at all. I respect it, but I don't "get" it. kwim?

Between any 2 extremes, there is usually a good balance. "No Cry" is one extreme to me, a Russian Orphanage is another.

I personally think babies need to cry sometimes, just like I do. For me, a "good cry" can be very cleansing. For babies, crying briefly can be the same way. It's also the main way they communicate what they need. Most caregivers can tell a hungry cry from a tired cry pretty quickly. And sometimes, it's a cleansing cry, too.

Why isn't a baby allowed to cry once in a while? Not hours of being ignored, but a few minutes of fussing to wind down for nap? Aren't they entitled to feel what they need to feel? Or are only "good" feelings allowed? What if a baby sees you eating a poptart, and cries for that? Give her the poptart? Ok...most APer's probably won't be eating poptarts...lol.

But, sooner or later, you're going to say "No" to something, and sooner or later, kiddo isn't going to like that answer. I'd much prefer to teach my kids that sometimes, you don't get what you want (or even need), and sometimes, it's okay to cry about it, but heck...you're still ok.

I make it very clear to my dcp's about what I do here. This is something I've added to my handbook, because honestly, 22 years ago when I started this, it wasn't even a consideration. But, over the years it has come up, and I want parents to know that if they choose me, they'll get a whole lot of wonderful, but they are not getting AP parenting. So, they can either teach their child to sleep independently, or the tough-love will happen here.
Love this!!!
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lovemykidstoo 06:31 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Lawson2:
I am not for or against AP, I believe to each their own and it is none of my business how anyone parents. With that being said...
I have an acquaintance who is an AP parent. She co-sleeps and breast-feeds her 5 year old daughter. She is very judgmental and very quick to "correct" the way other people parent (including me). She is always preaching to me about some parenting advice she has read in an article or book. What I should and shouldn't be doing.... So, she basically throws AP parenting down my throat. Yet, she complains she never gets a break. She has to go to bed when her daughter does and sneak out when she falls asleep. She also complains about getting kicked every night and not getting a good night sleep. If they go out for a night, their child is anxious and will wait up until they get home (so she ends up staying up til 12am). These are statements out of this mother's mouth, not mine. She also sends me articles on how detrimental crying it out is to a child's health.
Now, I have been watching children for 15 years. Years ago (long before I had my own child), I would see kids who would sleep like a charm. We would read stories and I would give them a hug goodnight- and that would be it. Then I would sit for kids that had no bedtime routine. It was a disaster. So I knew that when I had my own child, I would let them cry it out and put them on a routine. I did that with my son and he sleeps great! Putting him on a sleep routine was not some horrific, traumatic event. When he was old enough, we let him fuss a bit and he would eventually fall asleep (no, this was not hours on end). He sleeps well for us, sitters, and his Grandparents. I think this is a lot healthier/less traumatic than the women whose daughter has a breakdown if she is left alone.
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...
Shoot, 5 years old and still breastfeeding? UGH!

I have a couple of dcf's that say that they "have" to lay with their almost 3 year olds to get them to fall asleep. I'm really sorry, but I don't understand it. I was with my children from the moment I opened my eyes until the moment I shut my eyes, so the 6 hours of sleep a night that I got, I wanted my bed to myself. Call me selfish.
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Jewels 08:14 PM 03-22-2013
I believe sometimes there is nothing else you can do, I tell the story of my son, and I believe that cio can be prevented, it can be parent error.. In my case with my son it was our error, he was 4 days old when he started projectile vomiting, no wet diapers, but still nursing, my first baby, we had to bring him in, after everything he just had a bad Case of reflux, it was bad though in his tummy scan, he was puking up everything, and very dehydrated, they didn't was to do Meds right away, they wanted us to keep him upright, which if he wasn't He would scream if layed flat, but we struggled getting this tiny baby to sleep, we tried the carseat, a sling thing for crib, I tried holding him up so he could sleep, but then I could crying, and he would n't sleep, we were so miserable, we then went out looking for a good swing, his car seat made him spit and cry really bad, we needed somewhere he would be happy at night, we bought the really nice cradle swing(don't knock me on unsafe sleep, this baby could not lay flat, I'm not exaggerating his dehydration. We got it home and that night after eating, he feel asleep and slept his very first 2 hours, after 6 weeks he was on Meds and things got really good, by ten weeks when I had to go to work he slept through the night in the swing not swinging just laying, fast forward to him 5 months old and getting to big, and us thinking well time to move to the crib we did not know what we had done, we should have switched him when he got on meds, but didn't know any better, I thought it be easiest to just let him translation to laying in bed with me, he layed next to me for 30 minutes screaming his little head off, the while time with me holding him, he was so addicted to his swing, I finally put him in the swing and he feel right asleep, tried again the next night holding him after bottle..: screams.... Layed him in his crib... Screams.... Put him in the swing.. Out like a light, the next night we decided he had to figure it out, put him in that crib, we tried to go in and comfort him but he would get even more pissed, he cried for 2 hours, next night an hour, next night 10 minutes and after that right away and then he would sleep nowhere but his crib, so when we would travel with the pnp, he would sleep 2 hours of a night.... He's now 6 and a very happy super laid back calm 6 year old in kindergarten at a 3Rd grade reading level, reading small chapter books, the first Monday after we let him cio his daycare that day when I picked up....gave me the biggest smile and said "you fixed my baby!" I had never known quite how bad it was for her, she knew I wanted to be home with him,I hated bringing him to daycare, so she never really said that he never slept, but she said he slept his first really baby naps that day for her. You can bet with my 2nd, she was never placed in a swing for sleep, never once had to let her cry, I could always soothe her, but the only thing that soothed my son was his swing, I don't think he would have lasted in an ap daycare, I can guarantee she had to put him down once in a while when he was tired but refused to sleep.
I have never seen one as bad as my son, but my current 5 month old, was held for every nap and slept in a rocker thing at night, and hated the crib at first, for the first couple months he would take a few 15 minute naps in there then wake up screaming and I would get him but eventually he needed some longer naps, he was soothed very essay by touch, so I would also consider this sleep training not cio, I would rub his head he would close his eyes, then after a week of that I stopped touching and then would talk soothing so he knew I was there, which was enough, and then after that I would just last him down and leave fussed for a couple minutes then out, and then id wait a couple minutes when he would wake up after 20 crying, then he would be right back asleep, takes 2 hour naps now, a baby held all the time for naps at home has to be trained different at daycare. Training doesn't mean throwing them in a crib and letting them scream for 2 hours, I did it with my son, but my son was a well... Unique case... Sometimes cio is necessary.
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frgsonmysox 08:26 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Lawson2:
I am not for or against AP, I believe to each their own and it is none of my business how anyone parents. With that being said...
I have an acquaintance who is an AP parent. She co-sleeps and breast-feeds her 5 year old daughter. She is very judgmental and very quick to "correct" the way other people parent (including me). She is always preaching to me about some parenting advice she has read in an article or book. What I should and shouldn't be doing.... So, she basically throws AP parenting down my throat. Yet, she complains she never gets a break. She has to go to bed when her daughter does and sneak out when she falls asleep. She also complains about getting kicked every night and not getting a good night sleep. If they go out for a night, their child is anxious and will wait up until they get home (so she ends up staying up til 12am). These are statements out of this mother's mouth, not mine. She also sends me articles on how detrimental crying it out is to a child's health.
Now, I have been watching children for 15 years. Years ago (long before I had my own child), I would see kids who would sleep like a charm. We would read stories and I would give them a hug goodnight- and that would be it. Then I would sit for kids that had no bedtime routine. It was a disaster. So I knew that when I had my own child, I would let them cry it out and put them on a routine. I did that with my son and he sleeps great! Putting him on a sleep routine was not some horrific, traumatic event. When he was old enough, we let him fuss a bit and he would eventually fall asleep (no, this was not hours on end). He sleeps well for us, sitters, and his Grandparents. I think this is a lot healthier/less traumatic than the women whose daughter has a breakdown if she is left alone.
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...
Thats not normal AP parenting. The only one who still co sleeps with us is our 13 month old. All my other kids (8, 6, 4, 3) sleep on their own, at their bed time. Responding appropriately is NOT the same as dismissive parenting.

I should also clarify I don't actually lay down and sleep with my kids. I lay with the babies (or rather sit) while they lie around me. When everyone is asleep I get up and eat, clean, ect.

Yes, AP kids tend to take longer to sleep through the night. Biologically speaking many studies have shown kids are not ready to sleep through the night until 2 years old or so, and even adults don't sleep through the night. I know I get up to pee or get a drink a few times myself. Babies need that too. An AP child will learn to self soothe over the first 2 years and then be on par with their peers who were sleep trained. At 18 months my kids stop waking to nurse. At 2 they move to their own bed, and if ready, their own room.

I'm actually extremely strict and don't allow my children to be rude, disrespectful, ect. Being AP does not mean you aren't strict.

Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
Shoot, 5 years old and still breastfeeding? UGH!

I have a couple of dcf's that say that they "have" to lay with their almost 3 year olds to get them to fall asleep. I'm really sorry, but I don't understand it. I was with my children from the moment I opened my eyes until the moment I shut my eyes, so the 6 hours of sleep a night that I got, I wanted my bed to myself. Call me selfish.
Why ugh? 5 years old is not too old to nurse. This is a great article I think everyone should read.

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html
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frgsonmysox 08:40 PM 03-22-2013
When I first started out parenting I didn't feel right. I wasn't parenting the way I felt best, but the way my family and my husbands family told us was best.

When our daughter was born, she was born screaming and didn't stop for 8 months. She had severe reflux, colic, and FTT. Prior to this I was super ANTI co sleeping. I had only heard negatives about it.

When she was 6 weeks old, my husband was deployed, I had extreme post partum depression, and I was EXHAUSTED. I fell asleep one night nursing her sitting up. I woke a few minutes later and she had rolled out of my arms and on to the bed. I freaked out. I started researching because I knew I would lose my mind, and everything came back to co-sleeping. So I bit the bullet. That very first night she slept, for the first time, for more than an hour or so. She started sleeping 3 hour stretches that first night, and over the next 7 months she got better and better. For the first 2 years of her life she was held nearly non stop, she would have panic attacks when we went out in public, if anyone was near her she didn't know.

I worried and worried that my daughter was never going to be able to function in public. But I kept reading Dr. Sears and he kept telling me to follow my instincts and my instincts said to keep doing what I felt was right and to listen to my daughter.

Now she is 6. She is super sociable, extremely sweet (we call her "little mama"), and the teachers tell me they have never had a sweeter or more helpful student. She has remained on "green card" for two years straight. She loves going out in public, and although she still needs mommy and daddy cuddles those first few years of responding to her every need have made her a very independent girl. I truly believe she would not be who she is had we parented differently and left her to deal with that all alone.


My third child solidified my NEED to co sleep. He was born with fluid in his lungs. At a few weeks old he had his first major apnea episode. Over the next few weeks they came more and more frequently and he was placed on an apnea monitor. That first apnea episode occurred in the middle of the night. After nearly half a minute I started rubbing him, and trying to encourage him to breathe. It took almost another 30 seconds before I could. That was not the last apnea episode my husband and I had to encourage breathing again. Had he been in his own bed he would have most likely succumbed to "sids".


My second child brought me to the AP life style. My third child solidified it.
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youretooloud 09:48 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by Lawson2:
I actually stopped being friends with her because she was too overbearing. Also, her daughter wasn't enjoyable to be around. The girl would cry/ cross her arms/ storm away in a huff and the mom would chase her around asking, "what's wrong honey" every 5 minutes on the playground.
I have no other experience with AP parents, so I am not sure what is the norm? I just do what feels right and what I have learned (hands on) throughout the years. I take all parenting articles with a grain of salt...

That isn't really AP. That's more "raising a brat" parenting.

We did not co-sleep. Occasionally due to illness, or other problems we did..but, not as a general rule. (Youngest has some health issues that made breathing and sleeping hard sometimes) Other than that, we were very A.P... way before it even had a name. Nobody ever said "attachment parenting" or "Gentle discipline" or anything like that. It was just what came naturally.

However, I/we have always expected perfect behavior and manners. The only excuse for a tantrum outside of the house was complete exhaustion. There was absolutely zero tolerance for rudeness or snarky snotty behavior. We went home a few times because the behavior was not acceptable. They both knew If I said "quit that now, or we are going home" that even a dirty look would have them in the car so fast their head would spin. (at home, I allowed meltdowns and tantrums)

They were both invited over often. Parents WANTED them at parties. Parents invited them on vacations. Because we taught them compassion, kindness and manners. They were both tolerant... ate what was served, and suffered in silence unless it was "real".

But, I did not let them cry as kids. I let them know disappointment, but never allowed them to cry alone. Even if they deserved what happened to them.. I always felt like they deserved my support and compassion. As infants they were not ever left to cry anywhere. My sister made my youngest cry alone in a hotel room and then spanked her..that was the last time she watched my kids.

Their dad (my ex) rarely agreed with me. He wanted me to make them "suck it up" more often. Or he'd say "they should just sit there quietly" when I knew it was too much for them. He liked to go visit his family, and it was so boring your brain would rot in the first hour..so, I rescued them as often as I could. I didn't make them "suck it up".

I have never spanked or punished them or any child. I think punishments are as a last resort...like prison. By the time you need to go to prison, it's too late to learn. But, as a child, I taught them. I did not punish them. I made them fix mistakes, I did not punish them for making a mistake. So, they don't make many mistakes now. If they did, i'd let them handle it on their own. (they are both adults)
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snips&snails 11:46 PM 03-22-2013
Originally Posted by :
Make sure you tell the parents BEFORE you sleep train, especially the AP one. APers don' tend to sleep train and I would be livid if someone was doing that to my child. Give them a chance to leave your care first


Yes - DO inform the parents. In centers we always assisted the children in going to sleep via patting/rocking etc . My son coslept but once he got a bit of help FALLING asleep he always slept like a log - no teachers in the same room or anything.
When he was in a situation of a much more negative nap situation I knew immediately at bedtime something was up, he became a nightmare to get down and I was livid. Took weeks to get him back to easy bedtimes.

There is a lot of research about the negativity of CIO - please educae yourself before passing judgement. Yes crying can & does happen at naptimes but there is a huge difference between children crying because he or she doesn't want to sleep, & crying alone in a room until becoming exhausted. Especially with infants. My littles are helped to sleep, yes naptime is the ugliest part of the day sometimes lol but with time & patience they learn & my regular clients sleep easily without a battle
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lovemykidstoo 05:24 AM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by frgsonmysox:



Why ugh? 5 years old is not too old to nurse. This is a great article I think everyone should read.

http://www.kathydettwyler.org/detwean.html
Yup, you have your views and I have mine. I think that if a child can walk to a bus stop and get on a bus and spend the whole day at school and dress themselves and make themselves a sandwich, then they can get a cup a get a glass of milk. Even your link says that there is no evidence of benefit after the age of 2 because the study hasn't been done. "However, no one has yet proved, either way, that the benefits of breastfeeding either continue or stop at two years of age, because the appropriate studies have not been done." I think that at the age of 5 there are other options. Now, I know and you know that we will never agree on this point, so we should agree to disagree.
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Heidi 05:28 AM 03-23-2013
Originally Posted by snips&snails:


Yes - DO inform the parents. In centers we always assisted the children in going to sleep via patting/rocking etc . My son coslept but once he got a bit of help FALLING asleep he always slept like a log - no teachers in the same room or anything.
When he was in a situation of a much more negative nap situation I knew immediately at bedtime something was up, he became a nightmare to get down and I was livid. Took weeks to get him back to easy bedtimes.

There is a lot of research about the negativity of CIO - please educae yourself before passing judgement. Yes crying can & does happen at naptimes but there is a huge difference between children crying because he or she doesn't want to sleep, & crying alone in a room until becoming exhausted. Especially with infants. My littles are helped to sleep, yes naptime is the ugliest part of the day sometimes lol but with time & patience they learn & my regular clients sleep easily without a battle
I think this is a great discussion to have, because we all have something to learn from each other. Just as I think many people confuse the terms "CIO" and "sleep training", which are vastly different, we also seem to be confusing "attachment parenting" with "permissive parenting".

Alot of what you did, I did, and I am definately not a AP parent. Sometimes, my kids did have to "suck it up", but I'd say when they made mistakes, I taught them to make it right vs. punishment, with a few exceptions.
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