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bananas 03:41 PM 09-20-2014
So there's another thread that just was posted about withholding food. Something happened today with one of my DCKs that got me thinking about it and I just wanted to hear your opinions. First off, I have a rule here that if you want seconds of something then you need to finish everything on your plate. Today I served apple slices and a small handful of Apple Jacks (we're doing an apple unit). 3 year old DCG finishes her Apple Jacks and wants more, doesn't touch her apple slices. I tell her she needs to finish her apple slices so she takes her apples and throws them at the kid across from her at the table, spits some food on the floor, and then tries to nab her neighbor's Apple Jack's...all while I'm walking over to her to take her plate away. She slams her body against the door screaming for her mommy and "Snaaaaaaack, snaaaack, snaaaack!" She's done this before with lunch that she doesn't like as well - I just take the food away and dismiss her. Would you do something differently?
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Josiegirl 05:29 PM 09-20-2014
Wow, you got your hands full with that one don't you?? Yikes
Nope, I think you handled it great. You're not with-holding food, she made a choice to throw the rest of it not eat it. Hopefully she's understand soon the act she's pulling doesn't work for you. Do mom and dad handle it the same way or do they give in and try to appease dck?
I also think when she's calm might be a good time to discuss her terrible behavior and how you can help her change it.
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TwinKristi 05:48 PM 09-20-2014
Originally Posted by Josiegirl:
Wow, you got your hands full with that one don't you?? Yikes
Nope, I think you handled it great. You're not with-holding food, she made a choice to throw the rest of it not eat it. Hopefully she's understand soon the act she's pulling doesn't work for you. Do mom and dad handle it the same way or do they give in and try to appease dck?
I also think when she's calm might be a good time to discuss her terrible behavior and how you can help her change it.

I agree!!

And I have the same rule on seconds. They have to finish everything to have seconds of something.
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Baby Beluga 06:49 PM 09-20-2014
I would have done the same. She made the choice to not eat or at least try her apple slices.
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Thriftylady 07:13 PM 09-20-2014
Oh if she was throwing and spitting food, she threw her food away you didn't take it away.
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KatiesCorner 07:34 PM 09-20-2014
In my state, or at least my county, not giving seconds until other food is gone is considered withholding food and isn't allowed. But putting that aside, in my opinion if the child ate at least one serving of food before throwing her fit, then you made the right choice! You don't get to touch other peoples food around here.
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Blackcat31 07:42 AM 09-21-2014
Originally Posted by KatiesCorner:
In my state, or at least my county, not giving seconds until other food is gone is considered withholding food and isn't allowed.
Of topic a bit ~ but can you print the exact wording or link to that rule for your state?
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CraftyMom 04:59 PM 09-21-2014
Originally Posted by KatiesCorner:
In my state, or at least my county, not giving seconds until other food is gone is considered withholding food and isn't allowed. But putting that aside, in my opinion if the child ate at least one serving of food before throwing her fit, then you made the right choice! You don't get to touch other peoples food around here.
If a child chooses to eat ONLY the apple jacks, then the provider should continue to give seconds of apple jacks when the child has not touched the fruit? If she had tried it and didn't like the fruit, that is a different story. I wouldn't force her to eat something she doesn't like, but refusing to try the fruit and only eating the apple jacks...nope, not here. I have this happen here sometimes. They gobble down one thing that they like and want more without touching anything else. I remind them they need to try everything else first. If they refuse I ask "so are you done eating then?" I don't bend on this. I'd have a whole group of kids picking and choosing everyday

For me it wouldn't matter how many servings she ate before throwing the fit. She spits and throws food, SHE made the choice not to eat. I will not give her more fresh food to spit and throw
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SignMeUp 05:58 PM 09-21-2014
My understanding is that we must offer an amount that meets the requirements, but are not obliged to offer more than that.
So if you give the child a smaller amount of the treat cereal to start, they can refuse the apple, and you must give them an amount that totals the meal pattern requirement for the cereal.
I believe some providers still do some type of "catered" meals, where the food is delivered, and when I first heard of those, they included only the minimum requirements of each food for each child.
My kids would starve I am cursed with good eaters
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KatiesCorner 11:12 PM 09-21-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Of topic a bit ~ but can you print the exact wording or link to that rule for your state?
http://www.kdheks.gov/bcclr/regs/lic...l_sections.pdf. It's listed with the punishments stuff on page 38 of the PDF. (Page 34 in the actual book)it only says "withholding food" though in the book, which is why I said it may only be the way my county chooses to interpret it. I've worked in centers here in town for 12 years and my bosses said we weren't allowed to do it but I didn't know it was actually a Health Department rule until during my initial DC inspection. The surveyor read through the regs with me and specifically commented at that part that I could not force them to try something they didn't want or keep seconds from them until they ate other parts of the meal.
I personally think of withholding food as not allowing them to eat anything at all, and forcing food as physically putting food in their mouth.
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Play Care 02:55 AM 09-22-2014
I would not be able to claim the apple jacks on the FP, so in my mind, they are not actually part of the snack. I probably would have done apple slices, some type of protein, and then a small amount of the apple jacks. I would also not have given seconds on the apple jacks as they would not have been part of the snack, and I would have made that clear before snack even started.

That said, I don't give seconds on snacks - it's a snack not a meal. I do have pickier eaters and I have had kids in the past who would not eat at a meal because they were holding out for the snacks (this was especially true when my snacks were more crackery types ) I even successfully got rid of my AM snack because I felt as though we were always eating
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Second Home 05:52 AM 09-22-2014
If a child threw food I would not give them more ( not including toddlers) , any child who threw food at another child would have to leave the table . They chose to not eat the food .
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Blackcat31 06:07 AM 09-22-2014
Originally Posted by KatiesCorner:
http://www.kdheks.gov/bcclr/regs/lic...l_sections.pdf. It's listed with the punishments stuff on page 38 of the PDF. (Page 34 in the actual book)it only says "withholding food" though in the book, which is why I said it may only be the way my county chooses to interpret it. I've worked in centers here in town for 12 years and my bosses said we weren't allowed to do it but I didn't know it was actually a Health Department rule until during my initial DC inspection. The surveyor read through the regs with me and specifically commented at that part that I could not force them to try something they didn't want or keep seconds from them until they ate other parts of the meal.
I personally think of withholding food as not allowing them to eat anything at all, and forcing food as physically putting food in their mouth.
That's a shame that your county interprets it that way because I read it as if you can't with hold food all together as a punishment. Such as not allowing a child to have lunch. I did not read it as HAVING to allow seconds of anything.

My regulations also state that we cannot with hold food as a punishment but it's clear that they mean we aren't allowed to simply not give children the option to eat. We aren't governed on seconds or additional servings of anything.

I'm sure it's tough to have to work around that rule...
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CraftyMom 06:25 AM 09-22-2014
Our regs are no with holding food as a punishment, and no forcing them to eat anything (meaning physically putting food in their mouth unwillingly)

For the food program I do not have to offer seconds of anything. I am only required to offer the minimum serving

So if I offered it, she threw it, spit it out or refused it, I did not with hold, the child refused.
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Controlled Chaos 06:38 AM 09-22-2014
Yea, that type of behavior at my table is considered the child refusing to eat and the child will wait at a little table near us with a puzzle or something until their friends are done. You don't get to sit with us with those type of manners
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Cat Herder 09:38 AM 09-22-2014
Originally Posted by bananas:
She's done this before with lunch that she doesn't like as well - I just take the food away and dismiss her. Would you do something differently?
That is the only caveat that I see.

If it is a food that the child is KNOWN to dislike we are supposed to offer an alternate of that component. (we as in providers in my state who take the same classes I do)

If she is known to dislike apples, a serving of pears or grapes could be offered to her. If she is known to dislike green beans, a handful of carrot sticks can be offered.

I know it can get tricky. I generally plan menus around my group and have a few choices of fresh fruit/sliced raw veggies available daily as they keep for most of the week. (no trading carrots for pop tarts, though.... )

If it is the protein that the kid dislikes, I always have a PBJ or sliced cheddar cheese sandwich option (also keeps well and easily put together).

Funny how it is never the bread/grain they refuse.

Granted, OP's kid sounds like work ... having this kid all afternoon, also hungry, sounds HARDER.
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bananas 10:42 AM 09-22-2014
Thanks everyone! She normally loves apples and asked for seconds the week before when we ate them with our snack...she can be very unpredictable! She also asks for cake and donuts throughout the day (which I have never given the kids) and when I tell her I don't have any she also starts throwing herself against the door screaming for her mom and kicking at my furniture and bedroom doors. If she's being destructive with my furniture, I sit her in a time-out chair, away from everything to prevent injury, that she is not allowed to leave until she has calmed own. I generally avoid x number of minutes in time-out - I keep them there until they have cooled off...otherwise I feel like the time-out is pointless if they are allowed to leave still throwing a fit 3 minutes later!

I am not on the food program and am (legally) unlicensed. I try to be fair with my rules since I don't have a state rulebook that I am required to go by...when I saw the thread about withholding food, I started to question whether I was being fair or not. Food program and state regulations aside, would you do the same?
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bananas 10:50 AM 09-22-2014
I just really dislike that food is leading to so many issues - spitting, throwing, destroying, time-outs. I don't want food to be such a negative issue...I know that's how complexes begin!
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Cat Herder 10:54 AM 09-22-2014
Originally Posted by bananas:
Food program and state regulations aside, would you do the same?
I am not on the food program. My State regs say to offer alternates in cases of KNOWN dislikes. None of that would apply to your DCK.

IMHO, giving the alternate is the best option for me. Not the kid, not the parent...

*A hungry kid is a miserable kid. A badly behaved kid is already a miserable kid to spend the day with and I see no reason to make it worse to prove a point. I hope that makes sense.

Obviously your DCkid does like apples so I would not have offered anything else right then. I would have sent her to potty, wash up and to her mat. This was a behavior problem, IMHO.

DCK has two choices, stay at the table and eat or go wash up and go to mat. Nothing is being forced on her.

But, if I knew she had not eaten enough to be full until the next snack, I'd give her something more substantial at snack, FOR ME and the group. So we would not have to deal with even worse behavior.
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Thriftylady 11:01 AM 09-22-2014
I think you need to talk to mom. It sounds to me (due to the crying for mom) that she gets her way with this behavior at home. I would let mom know that it needs to be gotten under control because it doesn't work at daycare.
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EntropyControlSpecialist 12:03 PM 09-22-2014
Something seems way off about a 3-year-old behaving that way.
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Febby 02:41 PM 09-22-2014
When children throw their food, I typically tell them that it looks like they're all done eating (because if we're still eating, then we should be sitting quietly on our bottoms and eating) and then have them cleanup whatever they threw and then dismiss them.

Originally Posted by KatiesCorner:
In my state, or at least my county, not giving seconds until other food is gone is considered withholding food and isn't allowed.
My state also doesn't allow it, at least they don't in centers. I don't know much about the home daycare regs.
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grandmom 03:12 PM 09-23-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
That is the only caveat that I see.

If it is a food that the child is KNOWN to dislike we are supposed to offer an alternate of that component. (we as in providers in my state who take the same classes I do)

If she is known to dislike apples, a serving of pears or grapes could be offered to her. If she is known to dislike green beans, a handful of carrot sticks can be offered.

I know it can get tricky. I generally plan menus around my group and have a few choices of fresh fruit/sliced raw veggies available daily as they keep for most of the week. (no trading carrots for pop tarts, though.... )

If it is the protein that the kid dislikes, I always have a PBJ or sliced cheddar cheese sandwich option (also keeps well and easily put together).

Funny how it is never the bread/grain they refuse.

Granted, OP's kid sounds like work ... having this kid all afternoon, also hungry, sounds HARDER.
I know you aren't but: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? There is no stinking way I'd adhere to these rules. Oh don't get me started. How sad for the kids.
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Josiegirl 03:32 AM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by grandmom:
I know you aren't but: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? There is no stinking way I'd adhere to these rules. Oh don't get me started. How sad for the kids.
Haha I was thinking the same thing!! You end up playing restaurant with everybody when 1 child sees they can start getting substitutions. That's ludicrous!!
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Cat Herder 09:58 AM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by grandmom:
I know you aren't but: ARE YOU KIDDING ME? There is no stinking way I'd adhere to these rules. Oh don't get me started. How sad for the kids.
You are right, I was not kidding. The line of thinking was explained to us in class.



"What you would do as a parent has no relevancy in what you should do as an Early Childhood Care and Education Professional."

"Meal and snack times are solely for the purpose of meeting children's physical development needs. These are known as basic human needs which must be met consistently before early learning can occur. Research has shown......"

"...poverty .... busy schedules ....other children's needs ....lack of parental education programs ...extended family responsibilities ..job stresses..."

"....as such it is the responsibility of the Early Childhood Care and Education Professional to ensure that each child has an adequate intake of vital vitamins and minerals...."




Then it explains the "offer alternates" policy.

**I already did this for the most part, though. In cases of a true aversion to certain foods.

Our public schools have to do it, now, too... That is something my kids have enjoyed since they like to opt for the chef salad option anyway. They are not fans of frozen food nuggets from any meat source.

The concept that this stuff is my responsibility, well that is an issue I can't win even though I find it insulting to parents. It is like they just assume parents are idiots, now, and should be removed from their kids as much as possible. Eh, maybe I am just reading it all wrong. The term "Compensatory Education" is used often.
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toriskids 10:12 AM 09-24-2014
When I have my large groups (10) during the week, I seat all the children at the table in front of their plates and let them make a choice off the platter
(Grapes or mandarines, turkey or ham, etc) that I have prepared the night before or early that morning. The platter is then placed in the center with the remaining food for anyone who would like seconds.

I'm 8 months pregnant so dealing with any tantrums at the table during lunch can make the rest of the day really hard!
Plus my age group ranges from 14 months to 8 years old!

That is what works for ME......and the group
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KiddieCahoots 10:40 AM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
You are right, I was not kidding. The line of thinking was explained to us in class.



"What you would do as a parent has no relevancy in what you should do as an Early Childhood Care and Education Professional."

"Meal and snack times are solely for the purpose of meeting children's physical development needs. These are known as basic human needs which must be met consistently before early learning can occur. Research has shown......"

"...poverty .... busy schedules ....other children's needs ....lack of parental education programs ...extended family responsibilities ..job stresses..."

"....as such it is the responsibility of the Early Childhood Care and Education Professional to ensure that each child has an adequate intake of vital vitamins and minerals...."




Then it explains the "offer alternates" policy.

**I already did this for the most part, though. In cases of a true aversion to certain foods.

Our public schools have to do it, now, too... That is something my kids have enjoyed since they like to opt for the chef salad option anyway. They are not fans of frozen food nuggets from any meat source.

The concept that this stuff is my responsibility, well that is an issue I can't win even though I find it insulting to parents. It is like they just assume parents are idiots, now, and should be removed from their kids as much as possible. Eh, maybe I am just reading it all wrong. The term "Compensatory Education" is used often.
Or maybe it's where we have to pick up the pieces from the misguided parents raising precious snow flakes that call the shots on what, when, and where they will eat.
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Cat Herder 10:57 AM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots:
Or maybe it's where we have to pick up the pieces from the misguided parents raising precious snow flakes that call the shots on what, when, and where they will eat.
Now you are being culturally insensitive to current parenting strategies. Where is your family diversity tolerance?

I do believe we have taken this stuff too far. Time for a pendulum swing.
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KiddieCahoots 11:04 AM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Now you are being culturally insensitive to current parenting strategies. Where is your family diversity tolerance?
I do believe we have taken this stuff too far. Time for a pendulum swing.
Obviously it hit the road.....with my last snow flake. .........
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jenboo 11:13 AM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
You are right, I was not kidding. The line of thinking was explained to us in class.



"What you would do as a parent has no relevancy in what you should do as an Early Childhood Care and Education Professional."

"Meal and snack times are solely for the purpose of meeting children's physical development needs. These are known as basic human needs which must be met consistently before early learning can occur. Research has shown......"

"...poverty .... busy schedules ....other children's needs ....lack of parental education programs ...extended family responsibilities ..job stresses..."

"....as such it is the responsibility of the Early Childhood Care and Education Professional to ensure that each child has an adequate intake of vital vitamins and minerals...."




Then it explains the "offer alternates" policy.

**I already did this for the most part, though. In cases of a true aversion to certain foods.

Our public schools have to do it, now, too... That is something my kids have enjoyed since they like to opt for the chef salad option anyway. They are not fans of frozen food nuggets from any meat source.

The concept that this stuff is my responsibility, well that is an issue I can't win even though I find it insulting to parents. It is like they just assume parents are idiots, now, and should be removed from their kids as much as possible. Eh, maybe I am just reading it all wrong. The term "Compensatory Education" is used often.
Is this for real?? I couldn't imagine what it would be like in a center with 100+ kids!!!
So what happens if a child doesn't like any veggies?? You can't serve any to them??

I'm pretty sure if I had to cater to the children, we would have easy Mac and fruit snacks everyday. They would never eat the healthy meals I serve. Well mostly healthy.
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AmyKidsCo 11:25 AM 09-24-2014
I serve the food program minimum amounts to begin with. If you haven't seen them before you may be shocked by how minimum they are!
http://www.isbe.net/nutrition/pdf/meal_chart.pdf

I give seconds - minimum amounts again - on everything even if they didn't eat a certain food, but in order to have thirds everything needs to be eaten.

However, if a child was throwing food and spitting it out I'd assume she was done eating and would have her get down from the table.
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Cat Herder 12:22 PM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by jenboo:
Is this for real?? I couldn't imagine what it would be like in a center with 100+ kids!!!
So what happens if a child doesn't like any veggies?? You can't serve any to them??
Oh, no... You still offer the veggie, but have an alternate on hand.

These are for KNOWN dislikes. As in filled out on their enrollment feeding forms or noted on their portfolio.
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Heidi 12:32 PM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Oh, no... You still offer the veggie, but have an alternate on hand.

These are for KNOWN dislikes. As in filled out on their enrollment feeding forms or noted on their portfolio.
Does it bother anyone else, at least on some level, that we live in a country where we can allow children to throw away perfectly good food while other's stave.

I know, I know, it's what our parents used to say to us "eat your dinner, there are starving children in Africa".

I'm not trying to be over-the-top here, but dang, some of these regs are ridiculous. We are now teaching children to throw food away? Ok, so we don't have to "rub it in" as far as other children being hungry, but is there no balance?

I don't make food an issue. Like many others, you eat what you eat, and that's fine. But I would gladly be written up before I catered to the "I don't LIKE that"s. Then, don't eat it, but I'm not tossing it and making you something else.
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Blackcat31 12:39 PM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Does it bother anyone else, at least on some level, that we live in a country where we can allow children to throw away perfectly good food while other's stave.

I know, I know, it's what our parents used to say to us "eat your dinner, there are starving children in Africa".

I'm not trying to be over-the-top here, but dang, some of these regs are ridiculous. We are now teaching children to throw food away? Ok, so we don't have to "rub it in" as far as other children being hungry, but is there no balance?

I don't make food an issue. Like many others, you eat what you eat, and that's fine. But I would gladly be written up before I catered to the "I don't LIKE that"s. Then, don't eat it, but I'm not tossing it and making you something else.
We live in a disposable country.

There is NO value in much of anything anymore.

Everyone wants it for free and on demand.


Instant gratification. Soon to be moms can hardly wait anymore to find out the gender of their child anymore.

I have hundreds of examples but that one just came to mind as I have a DCM that is maybe 5 or 6 days pregnant and is already gushing about the date/time in which she can find out the baby's gender.
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Cat Herder 12:41 PM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Does it bother anyone else, at least on some level, that we live in a country where we can allow children to throw away perfectly good food while other's stave.

I know, I know, it's what our parents used to say to us "eat your dinner, there are starving children in Africa".

I'm not trying to be over-the-top here, but dang, some of these regs are ridiculous. We are now teaching children to throw food away? Ok, so we don't have to "rub it in" as far as other children being hungry, but is there no balance?

I don't make food an issue. Like many others, you eat what you eat, and that's fine. But I would gladly be written up before I catered to the "I don't LIKE that"s. Then, don't eat it, but I'm not tossing it and making you something else.
Wait until the online school lunch bill pay is down and your kids account does not update before their class makes it to the lunchroom .

The public school must toss their tray after they make it to the cash register and send them back to the table empty handed. The next day all the kid will get is an I am sorry for the inconvenience, never let it get below $5 again because it can take up to 3 days to balance out.

It is where we are right now... it can't last. It has gone too far. Just wait for it.
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Blackcat31 12:48 PM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:

It is where we are right now... it can't last. It has gone too far. Just wait for it.
Historically societies crumble about every 150 years.

We are MORE than over due.
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SignMeUp 12:54 PM 09-24-2014
Well that's a relief ^^
Some days I am feeling like I'm 150 with all this stuff
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jenboo 01:21 PM 09-24-2014
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
Oh, no... You still offer the veggie, but have an alternate on hand.

These are for KNOWN dislikes. As in filled out on their enrollment feeding forms or noted on their portfolio.
All of the parents when I first opened said that their kids didnt like veggies.
None of them would even touch the veggies for about 2 months.
Today, I couldn't give them seconds of zucchini fast enough!! But, if I would have given them fruit every day with the veggies, the probably still wouldn't eat veggies.
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