I'm noticing that more parents are practicing hands-off parenting. Trying to talk kids into doing what's right instead of physically "helping" the child do it.

ex: Interview time. The child is turning 2 in a couple of weeks. It's time to leave and he doesn't want to put the cars he is playing with away. Mom is trying asking him to put them away, the child is not complying. I take the little car bin over to the child, put it under his hands, and say, "It's time to put the cars away so they will be here when you come back to play with us next week." He doesn't want to and doesn't comply. So I gently press on the back of each hand one at a time so that he drops the car in the bucket while saying, "I know it's hard to clean up when you're having so much fun so I'll help you a little bit." He whines a bit, but then moves on and easily leaves with his parents.

This is a trend I'm noticing. More and more hands-off.

Am I wrong for physically insisting on compliance? I also pick children up and hand them to their parents when they are getting into things at the sign-out table/cubbies at pick up time....while their parents are just asking them to put things back.

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It all goes in cycles. Repeat ad nauseum.

"Respect the child" vs "Respect is earned"
"Teach the child" vs "Child lead learning"
Passive supervision" vs "Active supervision"
"Parents know best" vs "Government knows best"

IMHO, it depends. Do what works for you and each child individually. Read the room.

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To clarify, I always give the option of complying on their own when it's safe to do so. But when they don't do what's needed I physically help them at those young ages. I feel like it's training. Almost like muscle memory...teacher asks you to put this in the box, and this is how you do it.

At the cubbies I'll help them put the items back that they grabbed, then remind them not to open other children's cubbies...the moment they reach to do it again is when I pick them up and hand them to a parent.

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This is totally why people say ridiculous things like, "My child made me late."

My response is usually, "outside of a diaper explosion, a 30 lb person that you can pick up and place in the car does not have the ability to make you late unless you allow it"

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Modeling. It is perfectly acceptable.

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I know there are times we need to leave them to sit in their refusal too. Like when they refuse to put their shoes on and I leave them to sit on the porch and watch us play instead of join in.

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If parents are present I will more often than not, direct the parent to do what I want them to do.

During sign out, Little Johnny is digging in other's belongings. Mom asks Johnny to stop touching other people's stuff. Johnny ignores her.

Instead of me saying something or stopping Johnny, I say to the parent "Mom Johnny was told and is not listening. You need to have him stop now."

Then I let the parent do what I told them to do.
I expect parents to parent and I won't parent for them unless I am forced to and then I am not usually very happy about it.

However I also understand how to read the room/group/child/situation and can adapt accordingly but my main goal is getting parents to do what they NEED to do so that I don't have to parent. It's not part of my job description any longer.

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In college we learned that just because you can physically manipulate someone smaller than you doesn't mean that you should. It is basically sending a clear messge that you can touch and control their bodies without their consent and it is not good for their sense of self.

I don't do this with my own kids at all but with daycare kids it depends. The lack of control I have overall in a daycare kids life means that I have to nip behaviors in the bud in a finite amount if time, rather than grooming them with tactics so to speak. I can work with my own kids 24/7 so I know that certain consequences will be followed through and they will end up listening.

I think when parents are around us, they feel judged and may not want to be firm or interact in a punishing way. I think behind closed doors a lot more might be going on. I think that kids who do not listen are the ones that get physically manipulated the most. They come to rely on it rather than their own reasoning.

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I'm a little of both. I lead with hands-off and give choices first if they don't comply but I'll physically intervene if I have to. I don't like to, but I will.

I'll give them the choice to either clean up or miss out on the next activity but you sometimes get those kiddos that would rather miss out than to clean. It's with them that I may do a hand-to-hand clean up etc. but usually it doesn't get that far.

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Exactly. I Have become hesitant to comment on certain threads - like this one. Because I seem to always get a bad response when I talk about RIE or, really, many generally accepted practices I learned in school. But since you already mentioned it! Yes, this is a body autonomy issue and I keep hands off as much as possible. Now, that's not to say I try to convince kids to comply with something I need them to do. I feel it's just an atmosphere of respect. If Johnny doesn't want to put the trains away, I can wait for a minute. I don't need immediate compliance. But if they really aren't going to do it, I can tell them, "I need you to put the trains in the tub because it's time to go. You don't want to put the trains away" (sometimes they truly just want to be heard, seen, validated). If they dont after a comment like that (me describing the situation), then I offer, "Put the trains in the tub, please, or I will help you put them in"... Wait. Still no response, then at least describe what you are doing to their body when you do it, "I'm going to hold your hand while we put this in now" (as you do it). I have seen RIE practice make miracles happen lol. I went from boiling with irritation at seemingly disrespectful kids, to really connecting and having mutual respect...

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In my babysitting years, I leaned more towards hands-off. Most of my babysitting was sa kids though. Hands-on was usually for urgency or if they needed help with doing something.

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I don't want to hi-jack here but what do you do if you have twin 3 yos who will not listen to anything you request of them. My biggest issue is when they're playing and I'm trying to get the other dcks ready for outside time. I'll give them a couple minutes warning that we need to put our toys away in the playroom and get our shoes on in the living room. They will not listen whatsoever. I end up helping them while singing the clean-up song. Sometimes they'll comply. Then when we get to the living room area, they'll either start playing with something else or sit down and read books, ignoring my requests to put shoes on. So I repeat the process of verbal requests, helping them and telling them we're getting ready to go outside and play, reminding them of all the fun things we can do outside. It just feels like such a struggle and if I didn't physically move them sometimes, we'd never get outdoors or do anything besides play with what they want to play with.
So how do you do it?????

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I think this is the problem in a nutshell. Being firm is not punishment. Discipline is not punishment. If you properly discipline children, you never have to punish them at all. For my own children, I was fairly firm in my expectations, I can only remember punishing my now 21 year old daughter once---her punishment was that she had to pull all the weeds in the planting beds alone on a Saturday, something we all hate to do. The original posters actions were in no way punishing. She was making clear her expectations of behavior in a firm but fair and kind manner. I think the hands-off advice works great for preschool age children, not so much for toddlers.

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What if you leave the playroom mess and get shoes on, go outside. So, you might say, "We are going to leave the playroom mess so the little ones still get the outside time they love. We don't want to miss that! But when we come back, we will still have this mess to clean up. It's going to be during story time. So we will have to hurry and get it clean after lunch or we might end up with no time for books!" Then when the second chance comes (if perhaps they really care about story time), "Let's get this done because it's story time in 10 minutes, we might only get one book, or maybe not even one if we don't hurry!" Something along those lines. Not threatening, but just the facts, we have to get this done and it's going to eat into our good times if we don't. And then, eventually, let the playroom clean-up time eat into something they do care about (since they didn't seem affected by the need to hurry for going outside. RIE practice would probably also suggest having grace and modeling clean-up, helping others, and being flexible. So, I might say, "I am going to help you clean this playroom so we can go outside" not in an irritated way, just matter of fact. And do the main share of the clean up. Also, maybe try to shift your whole view of the situation. Instead of feeling like they have to do what you told them to, they have to comply, they have to do it quickly and move forward with the schedule... Instead of that, maybe you can see these situations as THE SCHEDULE. Like the whole point of your day is to discuss cleaning up together, having grace, thinking about responsibility, deciding for themselves when to go along with a group and when to make their own different choices. It seems so foreign to think like this. Instead of a focus on training and compliance and following your schedule, what if the whole ""curriculum" if you call it that, was more social emotional. All about processing decisions and giving time to think and talking about those decisions. Of course, compliance and body autonomy are considered differently when safety comes into play. I wouldn't say, "when you are ready, I am going to pick you up out of the middle of the street you ran into" you just grab them and run lol but in most situations, there is no emergency. So why do we want imediate compliance? Just my thoughts. And probably the thoughts of some parents. Or the parents are just not parenting. You can tell the difference! As someone commented above, the ones who are carried and moved and directed constantly are different than the ones who have been taught to think and move for themselves.. You have way more experience than I do, Josiegirl, at family childcare! So maybe I'm a crazy idealist. I have worked with kids for amany years in schools and centers and granted, it's a different ball game when you have even ONE other adult to help! So, I just said all of that in hopes of helping. You know what's best in your own situation and you've done this for many years!

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I know that for me, the play room is our everything room so it HAS to be cleaned up every time we change activities, or we don't have room for the next activity. this includes nap and meals, which I can NOT budge on for food police reasons.

I think to give a chance to do it on their own, including simple directions about what to do, then stepping in and adding a little help (bringing the toy bin to the child), and then doing hand over hand to help them while talking to them about it is not teaching them they aren't in control of their own bodies. It's teaching them that there are things that we all HAVE to do even when we don't want to. And the caregiver that's making sure you get your needs met is also making sure you learn this lesson....which is a need. ALL methods need to be moderate. Never touching, never physically picking them up and making them go where they need to go is going to an extreme, just as ALWAYS doing it would be. Showing them when and how they must comply from a young age helps them when they are older. There are times when they do get a choice, those times are when it doesn't affect the whole group...or the people that need to get you into the car and get you home so Miss Heather can stop working for the day. IME children that are parented and cared for consistently with moderate methods fair the best. They learn to bend rather than break. Always give them a chance to do it on their own. Thank them or praise them when they do. If they are the only one affected by their refusal, let them sit and stew in it, lol. But if the group needs something to be done, then they need to comply, or be helped to comply. It's part of learning not to be self-centered.

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Of course to naps and food. And the idea of leaving it was for when Josiegirl said they needed to get shoes on and go outside.
But, yes, over all I agree with trying to strike a balance between providing for the needs of one and the needs of the group. But, I know for a fact if I ever did a hands over hands forced clean up in my college lab classes, I would have gotten a heck of a reaction from my professors! And I also know absolutely no one does this in respected programs here. If a newbie teacher or assistant did, it would be cleared up immediately that it's not acceptable. The hand over hand thing for clean up is really not accepted. Physical handling is when necessary. Like you said, if they must get in a car seat and won't. Or have to diaper change and they won't. Or if they are climbing a table. Or if they are about to hurt someone. Not for cleaning up though. That one child doesn't NEED to clean up for the clean up to happen. That's making them do it because you want compliance. If they won't get in the car seat and you have to go, that one child does have to do it, to make it where you can leave. There's a difference.

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Quite often, the current method doesn't stay the recommended method because over time it becomes apparent that it's not beneficial. That's why I'm saying moderate approaches. A child does eventually need to learn to comply with things that are good for the group....it's necessary for survival in our culture...unless you want to end up visiting them through glass. It's so important to teach when compliance is expected and necessary and when it's okay to refuse for your own good/safety. I've seen a lot of extremes over the years, and from moving around (some things seem to be regional) and no extreme has ever been good. Giving them time to comply on their own, and then insisting is what I've seen get the best results long term. In school, kids who haven't learned to comply when appropriate get sent home, or sit in the office, or worse...misss recess. I'll absolutely allow them to sit and miss out on outside play because they refuse to comply with safety precautions, like shoes and a sun hat. But I will not allow them to expect others to clean up for them when they are capable. So far as a group...my graduates are the favorites of the local teachers. They have independent skills, work well in groups, and are respectful, while also standing up for themselves as necessary.

Luckily, I'm self-employed and can take the good from the fads and leave the rest. I do have a degree in ECE BTW, but it's over 20 years old.

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adding, I do use other consequences when possible...like leaving a little bit of the mess for the child to clean up and allowing everyone else to move on. This doesn't work for nap or meal time, but I can do it at other times. Some kids will sit and thrash around and scream for a min then clean up....others will just sit and not participate...which isn't really good for them either....but what battles I'm willing to fight depends on their age and when they need to be ready for kindy too.

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This is exactly what I say! I use this with my own kids and it worked beautifully. I would sometimes do hand over hand and describe what I am doing, then give them a chance to domit on their own. With daycare kids, especially part time, it can be hard to do this when they are used to a different style at home.

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To me this is where the challenge of my job comes in, trying to gain compliance without hand over hand. Most of the time I am successful because I know how to have good consequences, like losing a turn with a toy. In real life no one forces us to do things BUT there are consequences to actions...so I provide the consequences so their actions become self motivating. They start to think "If I do X I will get to do Y"

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This is what I'm describing. Giving them a few chances with and without varying degrees of "help". It does work beautifully. And is really only needed with 18 months to shortly after the 3rd birthday most of the time.

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Yes exactly! It usually only takes a few tries. I have one chikd who continually takes the chalk and marks up my carpet....and it is staning my carpet I don't want to take the chalk away but he has to learn to bring the chalk back when he is done. I explain what I want him to do "bring the chalk back to the chalk board", state it 3 times while pointing and then gently guide him to the chalk board reiterating the direction. He now complies right away to the direction. Now if he does not comply the chalk gets taken away and he can no longer play with it for that day. Begin again the next day.

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See in that situation, I would consider it the adult's responsibility to not give the chalk, which is apparently developmentally inappropriate for that particular child. I would take it away and say, "You're showing me you can't use the chalk without messing up the carpet. We can try again another time." And keep art supplies limited to that child. I don't give them the choice to destroy property.

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How is this different from what I am doing?

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Right? She's watching him and making sure he puts away, sometimes with physical help. Which is not any different than just taking it from him...except this is actually teaching something.

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It's just the difference between situations. This would teach ME not to make chalk available to him. When you say "except this is actually teaching something" what does it teach? I'm not being snarky. Do you mean it teaches them to listen and do as you told him? Or teaches him to use the chalk correctly? I don't think it does, it can't make him master self control by losing the chalk. He just isn't ready for the chalk and doesnt have the self control required to use it without destroying property. I wouldn't maybe use this situation to try to teach him something. I would just know now he shouldn't have the chalk. So, I take the chalk because oops, I left something out for you when I shouldn't have. It's hard to explain every situation and every detail thoroughly via message board! But, my point is many respected programs and parents don't believe in physically manipulating a child's hand without a real good reason. Who knows, maybe I would've asked for the chalk in this situation as well, and gave time. There are so many subtleties to everything in childcare. Straight out Taking the chalk or asking for the chalk and then taking it when they don't give it are different from "hand over hand" moving the child to put it away.

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He stopped marking on the carpet so he did in fact learn to use the chalk appropriately. How do you remove chalk from one child when I have 6 in the room. I take the chalk out for the kids who want to use it and then he goes to the chalk board and takes the chalk. I don't want to micromanage every little thing the kids do and I like having chalk available to them to use appropriately. This is why I need this particular child to learn to use it appropriately and thankfully after a few tries of guiding him back to the board he understood my direction. This way he had the opportunity to learn rather than not giving him that chance to begin with. I am not taking any offense, I am just having a discussion! Love discussing this stuff

Although I do agree with MANY RIE principles sometimes in a daycare setting they are not realistic in my opinion and experience. Unless the parent is practicing RIE at home (which would be great) it sometimes doesn't work.

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Very true. I love RIE and I incorporate many of it's principles but RIE is a parenting style. We can only do our best to put it to use in our daycare's but there's no way to incorporate every aspect when you have other kids to think about too. And some other things I feel are just silly and too dramatic ... like only giving babies clear rattles so they can see what's inside.

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But RIE is only a parenting style because it's been adapted by parents. It was developed for care of many children in an orphanage with lower number of adult staff. It's literally made for childcare.

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To me this is the same kind of setting as being a parent. It is 24/7 influence. I can see this working 100% when this is the only method being used. The reason I feel it doesn't always work in childcare is because it is not being implemented at home. A child will develop behavior patterns based on how the parents interact with them that have nothing to do with daycare and if consistancy between daycare and home is not there I don't see how it could work. Studies have shown that parental influence trumps daycare influence every time.

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I can see that.

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This pretty much describes what I do too.

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