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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Having More DCK's Than You're Licensed To Have
Unregistered 12:38 PM 01-07-2014
Have any of you ever had more dck's than you were licensed to have within a certain age group, and been written up for it by your licensor? If so, did you receive any penalty besides being written up for it?
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Play Care 12:43 PM 01-07-2014
No, I have not. My understanding is that this would be a major violation in my state and not just a slap on the wrist. Not worth it for me.
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Annalee 12:49 PM 01-07-2014
Originally Posted by Play Care:
No, I have not. My understanding is that this would be a major violation in my state and not just a slap on the wrist. Not worth it for me.
Same here, carries a fine along with probation! Not a battle I want to fight!
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TwinKristi 01:12 PM 01-07-2014
I wouldn't risk it honestly. It just makes your life harder, stays on your record for 3 yrs and you don't want to be red flagged for that stuff. In my state I have to notify all parents that I was cited and post it in my front room for 30 days. Then licensing has to come back and check on you and you'd have to term someone to comply. Just not worth it to me. Maybe for 30 mins if there was 2 shifts and an emergency and someone was late picking up but they usually will understand that and work with you. If you have that many kids and it's just the way it is they won't like that.
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snbauser 01:20 PM 01-07-2014
Here operating illegally is a class I felony.
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daycarediva 01:29 PM 01-07-2014
No. Never. I had a few incidents where it COULD happen with an AM/PM kid. When I enrolled PM kid I made sure dcm knew that there was no way she could leave if AM kid was still here.
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daycare 03:27 PM 01-07-2014
I am in CA and we can NEVER have a variance for any reason. My COunty is VERY strict on rules and being over capacity for any reason would be a violation of capacity.

My current analyst would not even permit me to have a holiday Easter party with additional children and their parents, being over by two kids.

If I were you, I would make things right so that you could get back to a state of compliance and operate legally.

Sorry, but if you did it intentionally, not cool.
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Unregistered 03:50 PM 01-07-2014
Logged out for privacy.

For the sake of 4 weeks I was cited. I had to have an assistant come immediately or I would have had to call parents, while my licensor was there, to come pick up their children. Luckily, I was able to do that. Then she had to be there daily for those 4 weeks. I get it. I do. But it's not like it was 6 months or anything.
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Unregistered 05:48 PM 01-07-2014
What you were doing was dangerous for the kids you were watching, There's a reason for rules on how many children per caregiver. I can't believe you're so unconcerned about what you were doing! In my opinion you should'nt be watching kids at all.
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crazydaycarelady 07:38 PM 01-07-2014
I got written up once for being 2 kids over. I was allowed to have 6 kids all day and 8 kids between noon -3:00p.m. (overlap.) Licensor was here and dcd was 10 minutes late, got here at 3:10. I got "written up" and had to submit my written plan of action (which was to tell dcd to be on time.)


I am allowed to have 6 kids (plus the 2 extra for 3 hours per day)and when I first started that was plenty. I think there should be something in the regs like a longevity clause though because after 22 years I can watch 8 kids with no problems. Someone who had never spent a day with kids can watch 6 kids tomorrow and someone like me who has been watching kids for 22 years can also only watch 6 kids?

Also it seems ridiculous to me that I am fully capable of watching 8 kids at 2:30p.m. but not at 3:30pm???
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daycarediva 03:59 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by crazydaycarelady:
I got written up once for being 2 kids over. I was allowed to have 6 kids all day and 8 kids between noon -3:00p.m. (overlap.) Licensor was here and dcd was 10 minutes late, got here at 3:10. I got "written up" and had to submit my written plan of action (which was to tell dcd to be on time.)


I am allowed to have 6 kids (plus the 2 extra for 3 hours per day)and when I first started that was plenty. I think there should be something in the regs like a longevity clause though because after 22 years I can watch 8 kids with no problems. Someone who had never spent a day with kids can watch 6 kids tomorrow and someone like me who has been watching kids for 22 years can also only watch 6 kids?

Also it seems ridiculous to me that I am fully capable of watching 8 kids at 2:30p.m. but not at 3:30pm???
That is SO ODD! What is different about 2:59 and 3:01 as far as child safety and supervision?

Here I can have 6 under 5 and 2 sa/enrolled in school. When my sa dcb has a day off of school, 1/2 day, etc he is allowed to be here all day (I only have one and don't plan to add to that). So I have 7 day care kids. Over summer I had 8 all day every day, perfectly legal.
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Cat Herder 04:21 AM 01-08-2014
I was cited once for being over. It was not a capacity/ratio issue, the compliance print-out actually said "in ratio" and "supervision requirements met".

A notary from City Hall's stamp had expired mid-year causing my paperwork to be invalid. I had never even paid attention to the seal (other than making sure it was there) before.

They could have shut me down immediately, fined me, put "child endangerment" on my criminal record (limiting my employment opportunities for life) and barred me from re-opening. (I might have been able to appeal to a judge, but you get the point)

Instead, she gave me until the end of the business day to have the enrollment form stamped by another City Hall worker and hand delivered to her in her office. My husband had to leave work and handle it for me as I could not leave the house for obvious reasons.

I had surprise visits almost monthly for about 6 months as well. They call it follow-up monitoring. My citation was never even filed with the State office by my inspector, but I still was painted black for a while with the local office.

What a nightmare that was. I can't imagine risking that knowingly....
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Unregistered 04:56 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
What you were doing was dangerous for the kids you were watching, There's a reason for rules on how many children per caregiver. I can't believe you're so unconcerned about what you were doing! In my opinion you should'nt be watching kids at all.
If this was directed at me, the four weeks was until one of the children turned 2. She was no less advanced at that point then she was four weeks later. The number of children was fine. End of discussion for me. Not getting pulled into drama.
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Play Care 05:32 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by daycarediva:
That is SO ODD! What is different about 2:59 and 3:01 as far as child safety and supervision?

Here I can have 6 under 5 and 2 sa/enrolled in school. When my sa dcb has a day off of school, 1/2 day, etc he is allowed to be here all day (I only have one and don't plan to add to that). So I have 7 day care kids. Over summer I had 8 all day every day, perfectly legal.
In the summer I have had 10 kids in my care - all legal, because my kids are SA. I have 6 dck aged 2-5, 2 SA DCK and my own two SA kids.
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Blackcat31 06:25 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Logged out for privacy.

For the sake of 4 weeks I was cited. I had to have an assistant come immediately or I would have had to call parents, while my licensor was there, to come pick up their children. Luckily, I was able to do that. Then she had to be there daily for those 4 weeks. I get it. I do. But it's not like it was 6 months or anything.
Did you KNOW before hand that you were out of compliance/ratio? Or did you not know until you were cited for it?

In my state, we have the option of requesting a variance if were are going to have situations like that where things overlap.

Depending on our set up, experience levels and willingness to take precautionary measures, we can get that variance and be legal for that temporary timeframe.

If we get caught being out of ratio, we are cited and MUST post the citation for parents and potential clients to see for 2 years.

Citations within the previous 2 years also make us ineligible for participation in our QRIS program too.

I'm sorry this happened to you but as a licensed provider, it is our duty and obligation to know and follow the rules, regardless of the , special circumstances or "buts"...kwim?

I hope this isn't something that effects your business too badly.
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crazydaycarelady 06:35 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by :
If this was directed at me, the four weeks was until one of the children turned 2. She was no less advanced at that point then she was four weeks later. The number of children was fine. End of discussion for me. Not getting pulled into drama.
Good for you! I think it is sad that we cannot discuss issues without anonymous insult slinging. There are nice ways to put things and also positive encouragement and offering solutions for following rules would be better than trying to make someone feel bad. WE ARE HERE TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER LADIES! We are all on the same team!
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Blackcat31 06:44 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by crazydaycarelady:
Good for you! I think it is sad that we cannot discuss issues without anonymous insult slinging. There are nice ways to put things and also positive encouragement and offering solutions for following rules would be better than trying to make someone feel bad. WE ARE HERE TO SUPPORT EACH OTHER LADIES! We are all on the same team!
While I do agree that there are sometimes nicer ways to get your message across, I don't think being on the same team means supporting someone that broke the law.

Even if it was only for an hour or for 4 weeks. If the OP was out of compliance/ratios, then there is a consequence.

Some providers feel VERY strongly about those providers that try to "slip on by" or sneak under the radar or even ones who break the law unknowingly because some states require providers to jump through hoops to even be licensed.

We've had this discussion before.

It's one thing to be rude and offensive to a poster, which is uncalled for, but the support here isn't unconditional and automatic simply because we area all providers. kwim?
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crazydaycarelady 06:47 AM 01-08-2014
I don't think we should support rule breaking but we can support each other. Positive encouragement and brain storming ideas to avoid being over would be better than name-calling.
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Blackcat31 06:59 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
What you were doing was dangerous for the kids you were watching, There's a reason for rules on how many children per caregiver. I can't believe you're so unconcerned about what you were doing! In my opinion you should'nt be watching kids at all.
Originally Posted by crazydaycarelady:
I don't think we should support rule breaking but we can support each other. Positive encouragement and brain storming ideas to avoid being over would be better than name-calling.
I didn't read any name calling.

Unregistered gave her opinion. She wasn't rude in anything she said.

The only statement she made that I can see being potentially "dramatic" was saying she didn't think OP should be watching kids. That's her opinion. I don't think it was rude.
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Naptime yet? 10:00 AM 01-08-2014
The one thing that was stressed when I was going through licensing was don't go over the 2 under 2 ratio because you will never win in court. I know of someone who, by doing some favors for some friends was over ratio, and just happened to be visited by licensing that day. It has become a complete nightmare & headache for her, between costs & court....I don't know if she will continue with daycare to not.
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Leanna 10:13 AM 01-08-2014
I have never gone over ratio. Simply not worth it. When two kids share a spot (one AM and one PM) I put in my contract that if the AM person is late picking-up it results in immediate termination. I will not have my license put in jeopardy because someone didn't plan ahead!
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Annalee 10:17 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by Leanna:
I have never gone over ratio. Simply not worth it. When two kids share a spot (one AM and one PM) I put in my contract that if the AM person is late picking-up it results in immediate termination. I will not have my license put in jeopardy because someone didn't plan ahead!
This is why I have 12 only (my limit) and each pays the same full-time rate, regardless 52 weeks a year. Although I have several parents that only use three days, the rate stays the same. Right now, this works for me and I am thankful. After all, FCC is my livelihood and my family depends on it.
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Play Care 10:20 AM 01-08-2014
Originally Posted by Naptime yet?:
The one thing that was stressed when I was going through licensing was don't go over the 2 under 2 ratio because you will never win in court. I know of someone who, by doing some favors for some friends was over ratio, and just happened to be visited by licensing that day. It has become a complete nightmare & headache for her, between costs & court....I don't know if she will continue with daycare to not.
My biggest beef with providers who knowingly break regs is that often they believe they are doing someone a "favor" or they are under the mistaken impression that the parents are their "boss" and can give them permission to do the wrong thing. It makes it harder for providers who know better to run their business and stay in business. If Provider A is willing to break regs to please parents, provider B doesn't stand a chance.

I've often gotten the impression from parents that I take myself too seriously (because after all, I'm the "sitter" ) when the issues are usually something I have to enforce due to regulations. It's usually a pretty eye opening conversation for the parents when I tell them quite bluntly "you are NOT my boss and can not give me permission to do things that break state regulations."

Stepping off my soap box
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itlw8 10:27 AM 01-08-2014
Yep rules are rules and we have to follow them I had a child with special needs he was at a 15 month level when he turned two. Rep said use your best judgement but it the rule he counts as over 2 just like the 22 month that is advanced counts as under two.
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cheerfuldom 11:05 AM 01-08-2014
I have to say that I agree with those that were saying you should never be out of ratio, especially knowingly out of ratio. I understand that you might feel capable of handling the age and number of children but the state says no. We all have to follow the rules.

Just like driving. My husband used to think he could drive however he wanted because he can drive anything on wheels, is very experienced and thought that made it okay to break the rules. But the speed limit is there to control drivers as a whole, not individual drivers who individually could go faster and still be in control. The speed limit isn't something to attack an individual driver, but to safely control the population as a whole. Same thing with our daycares....we make rules based on the group, not personalized rules for each family.

Your state says this child has to be 2. There is nothing that you can say that will convince me to support you in knowingly breaking a rule. Sometimes the rules are a pain and totally inconvenient, but that is the way things are. We don't give our kids permission to break rules at school and daycare because they are an exception for X reason, do we?? I hope not. There have been several things at my daughers' school where I know THEY can handle themselves outside that rule but I still insist the rule be followed at school because it is a school rule. My kids are not special snowflakes that get exceptions because one of them may happen to be smarter, more responsible or more capable about a particular activity.
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craftymissbeth 11:14 AM 01-08-2014
I wouldn't ever go out of ratio because it'd kill me... here's how our ratio chart is set up in Kansas:

0 - Newborn to 18 months; 3 - 18 month to 5 years; 3 - 5 years to 11 years = License Capacity of 10

OR

1 - Newborn to 18 months; 5 - 18 months to 5 years; 4 - 5 years to 11 years = License Capacity of 10

OR

2 - Newborn to 18 months; 4 - 18 months to 5 years; 3 - 5 years to 11 years = License Capacity of 9

OR

3 - Newborn to 18 months; 3 - 18 months to 5 years; 2 - 5 years to 11 years = License Capacity of 8


In any of those scenarios, I'd go crazy being out of ratio. I tend to stick with the bottom two ratios. I would NEVER want more than 3 infants and I would NEVER want more than 1-2 toddler/preschoolers along with infants.

ETA: My little "chart" I made isn't coming out right, but oh well.
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FingerprintsHappen 04:55 AM 01-09-2014
I was over on the "under 15 months" ratio once, TOTALLY accidentally.
I was working with an assistant at the time. We had a total of 8 kids (of the 10 I am licensed for) when I had a drop in inspection. I thought FOR SURE everything was fine- but I had one kid's birthday wrong. If I'd remembered the right date I never would have taken a drop in infant, who wasn't scheduled to be there that day normally. I had misremembered the toddler's birthday by 2 days, so he was 2 days shy of 15 mos, putting us at 4 kids under 15 mos when we were allowed 3.
I got in a lot of trouble. Had to go meet with my licensor and her supervisor and they read me the riot act. If I'm EVER found out of ratio or over numbers again I lose my license, period. TOTALLY not worth it.
I was pretty upset because it was an honest mistake, one I would NOT have done on purpose. They made this huge deal about how I was endangering the kids, because he was 2 days shy of 15 mos. I could have understood it much better if I had 4 newborns, but one kid 2 days shy of being a toddler instead of an infant (and he walked at 9 mos so not like he wasn't walking!) and threatening to pull my license seemed a bit over the top.
I make VERY sure I'm within ratio and have all the birthdays on my calendar now!
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daycarediva 05:24 AM 01-09-2014
Originally Posted by Play Care:
In the summer I have had 10 kids in my care - all legal, because my kids are SA. I have 6 dck aged 2-5, 2 SA DCK and my own two SA kids.
I didn't count my own kids! That would make 6 under 5, 2 sa dcks and my 4 sa kids. 12 kids total, but 8-3 during the school year I am only able to have 6.
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Tags:entitlement, ratio - over limit, rules, special treatment
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