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Old 03-05-2012, 01:06 PM
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Did anyone see the show 60 Minutes last night. One of the articles was very interesting. I hope I understood it right because I was trying to finish organizing for this week and my little boy kept saying "I'm so glad I'm not in kindergarten anymore". He was saying this because he was watching it also but not understanding what it was saying.

So here is what I understood. More and more parents are keeping there kids out of kindergarten until they are 6 years old on purpose (more boys then girls). Now they are doing this so the kids will have an advantage over the younger kids. Better grades, better at sports, more popular, and a whole bunch of other things. It is called Red Shirting.

Some school districts are putting their foot down though and saying if your child is 6 and hasn't attended kindergarten they will automatically go to first grade. I think the plan to keep their boys out backfired on two sets of parents because of this.

Like I said not sure if I go the story right but was pretty interesting to watch. Might try to bring it up on the internet.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:10 PM
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I wish I would have seen that! It would be a shame because some kids may benefit from waiting. Nasty people ruin everything!
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:30 PM
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http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?...;storyMediaBox


you will have to copy and paste I guess.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:31 PM
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there it is!
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:36 PM
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Thanks I want to rewatch it. If you watch it please let me know what you think of the article.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:44 PM
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To be extremely blunt, I think its a bunch of rich people who want to be the best at everything and I feel like it just pushes the gap between the haves and the have nots even bigger than it is. if your kid is less mature, ok, fine. I think that it probably evens out anyway.

Of course it is going to look like a 6 yo is better in school than a 5 year old. They have longer attention spans, they have better fine motor skills, etc.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:14 PM
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They are going to have a senior in high school that is 18 the entire year at best. Good luck with that.
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Old 03-05-2012, 02:22 PM
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Yep! At 18 they can sign themselves out! (My husband used to all the time because he was in the Fire Company.)

I know a Kindergarten Teacher that told me she has never seen anyone regret keeping the child home until 6 and she said for boys it's almost a must. (In her district, the Kindergarten has a vast curriculum - must be reading, must be writing sentences before 1st grade.)
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:11 PM
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I have an 18 year senior

We kept her in preschool another year from the recommendation of her preschool teacher. That academically she could do it, but socially she would benefit another year. We did not "red shirt" her lol. She turned 18 right after this school year started. We have had our "But I'm 18" issues, but nothing major. I wouldn't have it any other way. And she cannot sign herself out in our school system.

Now our younger 2 kids are both the youngest in their classes and I wouldn't have that any other way. If we would have waited they would both be extremely bored right now.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:28 PM
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I was an 18 yr old senior! Both my kids were too! I was able to sign myself in and out and make excuses for my absences. Luckily, I was a "good" kid and loved school so I never abused the priviledge. Neither of my kids did either.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:29 PM
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starting in 2014 in california all children MUST be 5 years old when they start kinder. This will mean that many children will be 18 throughout their senior year.

My families kids have bdays in december, they missed the dead line by a few days and therefore are 18 in highschool.

I plan to hold my son back this fall from starting, because that would mean he would be 4 when he starts and he is a very immature young 4. He comes from a family where he is the youngest by 10 years and is very babied by his siblings; despite my request to NOT baby him.

I feel it will give me the chance to mature and he will do much better in school.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:33 PM
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It's kind of interesting that as we push down what used to be first grade curriculum to kindergarten, more people are waiting to put their children in kindergarten, eh?

It's a little ironic that several children in my extended family have actually been skipped a grade because they were bored, and most of our schools no longer have any "gifted" programs due to financial issues.
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Old 03-05-2012, 04:00 PM
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I'm finding in my area, that it's the youngest boy child that's being "red shirted".

My neighbor's son will be 6 the first of June. He'll start K in the fall and will be 19 when he graduates. He's exactly 1 year and 4 days older than my grandson and would be in the same class if they went to the same school.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:24 PM
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That's a ball of crap in my opinion. "Redshirting", that is. I'm sorry.

The grades that children are in are based on what abilities the average child has at each age and what they should be learning at that age to do well in their school careers. Kindergarten is for five-year-olds because its developmentally appropriate for most five year olds. It's NOT for six year olds because at six, most kids are ready for more challenging curriculum. Especially these kids, who have access to the best preschools and such. If your four-year-old is reading, what sense would it make to have a child who's been reading for two years in the same class with kids who don't know their letters?? In my opinion this has nothing to do with academics, its about having the "best" kid.

Working in an environment with there's heavy poverty and low socioeconomic status, some boys (and girls) simply aren't ready for kindergarten at 5 because of their home life, poor diet, lack of health care, or lack of social exposure. Pre-K is very, very important here and just about every child attends, for those reasons. The Pre-K program here is called VPI and is basically just kindergarten without the tests and learning standards, a training camp for kindergarten. By going to VPI when you're four lessens the chance that you won't be ready for kindergarten when you're five, which lessens the chance that you'll have the stigma of the "big slow kid" who's a year and half older than everyone in their class. I really can't see how they think this is going to be a good thing in the long run.

Like someone else said, I think this is just another case certain people gaining advantage over other people through unfair tactics and loopholes. Yes the six-year-old kindergarteners might be able to blurt out all the answers and win all the school yard races because they're bigger, but how is that really helpful? It tells the him that he should "always win" because he's being set up to win. What happens when he doesn't?
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:51 PM
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Where I live we have a huge social gap of haves and have nots. I live in a medical community where physicians attempt to do this all the time to give their kids an edge. Trouble is if they have access to things others do not they typically end up better/smarter anyhow. Nonsense holding them back just to widen that gap. In our district they are cutting gifted programs because there isn't funding to pay for them. So what happens to these older and better off kids when there isn't any system in the schools to support them???

I think it's a bunch of crap. I also think it backfires when they get old enough to make decisions on their own. My own brother just missed the cut off for kindergarten because of his bday. He was always smarter than the curriculum offered in school and never put in much effort because he didn't have to try. Got to college and flunked out. Had no study skills because he never had to develop them. Still hasn't done much with his life because he always had it easy being smarter than his class.

I also laugh at the sports idea. What if your kids have no interest in sports??
Overall bad idea.
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Old 03-05-2012, 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Country Kids View Post
Did anyone see the show 60 Minutes last night. One of the articles was very interesting. I hope I understood it right because I was trying to finish organizing for this week and my little boy kept saying "I'm so glad I'm not in kindergarten anymore". He was saying this because he was watching it also but not understanding what it was saying.

So here is what I understood. More and more parents are keeping there kids out of kindergarten until they are 6 years old on purpose (more boys then girls). Now they are doing this so the kids will have an advantage over the younger kids. Better grades, better at sports, more popular, and a whole bunch of other things. It is called Red Shirting.

Some school districts are putting their foot down though and saying if your child is 6 and hasn't attended kindergarten they will automatically go to first grade. I think the plan to keep their boys out backfired on two sets of parents because of this.

Like I said not sure if I go the story right but was pretty interesting to watch. Might try to bring it up on the internet.
I wish I had watched. My kids all have late summer or fall b-days (I have all boys) & my school district requires kids must be 5 by August 1st to attend Kindergarten so all my kids were, or will be 5 1/2 & my oldest who has a mid August birthday turned 6 right before K. I think it was a good move for him (a little slow socially) as he is now a 4th grader with straight As as is my 2nd grade son who was 5 3/4 when he started K.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:31 PM
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In my state kids must be 5 on or before September 1 before entering kinder. My son's birthday is Sept 3 so he missed the deadline by 2 days. He turned 6 the 3rd day of kindergarten. We chose not to file for an exception (even though many of our friends thought we should) because he has always been on the small side and we wanted to let him be the oldest and "average" size rather than the youngest and smallest. We have not regretted this decision as he is doing really well.

For some kids, especially boys, I think it is wise for them to be "ready" and that may mean waiting a year. Kindergarten today is what first grade was when I was a kid and the standards keep getting harder to keep up with. One of the DCM that I worked with was upset that her daughter was not learning to read in the 4 year-old kindergarten class! Giving kids a chance to be KIDS is a good idea.

But I agree that keeping your kids out just to gain some perceived "edge" over the other kids is crazy. What are they going to do when the kid gets bored and then gets into trouble for acting out?

On a side note, do kids ever get "skipped" ahead anymore? I was deemed gifted and skipped the 4th grade so I was on the young side but managed just fine. If these kids are seen as fitting the standards for their "age" instead of their "grade" could they simply be moved ahead?
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:41 PM
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That's a ball of crap in my opinion. "Redshirting", that is. I'm sorry.

The grades that children are in are based on what abilities the average child has at each age and what they should be learning at that age to do well in their school careers. Kindergarten is for five-year-olds because its developmentally appropriate for most five year olds. It's NOT for six year olds because at six, most kids are ready for more challenging curriculum. Especially these kids, who have access to the best preschools and such. If your four-year-old is reading, what sense would it make to have a child who's been reading for two years in the same class with kids who don't know their letters?? In my opinion this has nothing to do with academics, its about having the "best" kid.

Working in an environment with there's heavy poverty and low socioeconomic status, some boys (and girls) simply aren't ready for kindergarten at 5 because of their home life, poor diet, lack of health care, or lack of social exposure. Pre-K is very, very important here and just about every child attends, for those reasons. The Pre-K program here is called VPI and is basically just kindergarten without the tests and learning standards, a training camp for kindergarten. By going to VPI when you're four lessens the chance that you won't be ready for kindergarten when you're five, which lessens the chance that you'll have the stigma of the "big slow kid" who's a year and half older than everyone in their class. I really can't see how they think this is going to be a good thing in the long run.

Like someone else said, I think this is just another case certain people gaining advantage over other people through unfair tactics and loopholes. Yes the six-year-old kindergarteners might be able to blurt out all the answers and win all the school yard races because they're bigger, but how is that really helpful? It tells the him that he should "always win" because he's being set up to win. What happens when he doesn't?


The kids who could benefit the most from being held out an additional year are the kids whose parents cannot afford to do it.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:43 PM
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My son is going to be 6 when he starts kindy. My older son was 6 when he started. I did that not to gain advantage over anyone. I did it for my child(ren). I did it because they are boys with less attention span. I did it because my older son would have driven his teacher bananas because he was not capable to sitting in one place for any length of time and spent a lot of time in his own little world, not ready for that much organized structure. I did it because my baby, who is 5, struggles to be away from mom and just going to preschool caused him such anxiety. I did it so that when they graduate, I am not sending an immature 17 year old off into the world. I thought things out for MY child. Not because I give a rats behind about sports or my own child being better than any other child. I did it because it was right for MY boys. My daughter was 5 when she started kindy, and I WISH we would have waited to start her too. What a bunch of crap. If anything like that were to happen in my school district, I would pull them all and homeschool. I am so tired of administration thinking THEY have the power to over rule the decisions made by parents.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:21 AM
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This is an interesting suject. I have never heard of the term "red shirting".

This is just my life experience with this:

First, I spent all my school years being the youngest kid. The cut off in Des Moines is Sept 15th and my birthday is the 10th. Year after year I would run into a couple of kids who were younger than me but they were few and far between.

My son is a mid July birthday and he has been one of the younger kids in the class but he went into school fully reading for a year and he is GINORMICAL. He's been the tallest kid in the class in nearly every grade. He's taller than his friends. He also went into upper grades for reading, math, and science while he was in Kindergarten thru fourth grade. My sons school will swap the kids around to the group they need even if it is the next grade. So he had the experience of being the youngest and then REALLY the youngest in his core studies. He was taking math and reading with kids two years older than him. He did fine.

My son has two brothers that are Sept 13 and Sept 15th birthdays one year apart. They are in the same class at school and the younger one really struggles compared to the older one. There was a lot of talk of holding the younger back but there wasn't money there to fund a year of child care or preschool and the State was specfic that they don't pay for child care when the kid can be in Kindy.

I've had the last four kids go from birth to five here. One May, one June, and two July. Of those four kids ... all four were tested for talented and gifted in reading by first conferences in Kindy. All four have gone to the upper grade for core subjects as my son has. One of the four went up two grades for core subjects. They are all in different schools but there IS accomodation to have kids go to different classrooms to sit with their intellectual peers.

So here, I don't think it would really be that big of an advantage academically. I think the kid that came to kindy fully reading, writing, would just leave his classroom for reading and all the other core classes.

I think the story was vauge in giving real numbers. It said "some" kindy classes were seeing as many as a fourth of the kids being six year olds. I would like to see the actual statistics across the country and the racial economic background. I would guess it's more of an issue in affuluent areas where parents can absorb a year more of child care or preschool or our SAHM. I kept thinking that the ones who had their child in care between the fifth and sixth year could do a lot of good on the kids college tuitition if they invested that money they are paying for an extra year of prek into a college fund. Twelve years of investing 10K may pay a good amount of the first year or so of college.

I think the guy was right on the mark saying that the children this is being done for are the ones who already have the advantage or aren't at risk. I also think the school districts who are being hit hard with this need to simply group the kids who were held back a year into the same classroom in Kindy. If parents know that the whole class are going to be the same mates they would have had if they wouldn't have held back then they would have little value in trying to have the edge.

The school could also use that classroom for their teacher that is new to the field. They wouldn't need aides in the classroom so the normal amount of resources going into a kindy room could be diverted from that class and put into the "youngers" class. This classroom could do PE, recess, art etc. with their real age mates. The school could use this to their advantage with a little planning. They need to see the advantages of having kids coming into Kindy already having it done. Use the resources you would use in their classroom for the kids who actually need to do kindy. Let the ones held back have a year have an inexperienced teacher and pilot some new programs or methods on them. They could be the guinea pigs for testing out new ideas. Since they have theoretically competed kindy already then they have a year to try on some new methods and train their youngest most inexperienced staff.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:34 AM
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Very interesting, wish I caught the show.

I think holding a child back to give them a so called 'edge' in sports and academia is not the right idea. Life is so competitive as is - why force your kid in that 'I have to be better than you' right from the K level is just too much. However, if your child is not ready, socially, emotionally, physically or intellectually and they can benefit from staying out of kindy that is a different story.

Here in Ontario we have both junior kinder and senior kinder programs. I can opt out of JK and send my son to SK the following year if he is not ready. He won't be any older or younger than his peer group, but may benefit from a year at home or in preschool. My DS is a December baby and he will only be 3.5 going to school from 9-3 everyday... Which to me is too much for a 3 year old so most likely I will keep him home
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:46 AM
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My daughter missed cut off by a month. I think it would have been better for her to have been able to start at 4 and turn 5 a month into kindergarten or something or let her have started first grade when she was turning 6. She had an extra year with me but was so ready for kindergarten that I think she became bored very, very quickly. Tested for tag in 2nd grade but didn't make it because she didn't know her times tables. The one thing we didn't work on. She was almost always the oldest in her class and some of her friends she is at least 10 month older because they have summer birthdays.

She will be almost 19 when she graduates but seems younger because she is with kids younger than her everyday in school. I graduated at 17 and think it gave me time to grow up. She will really be out of highschool 1 year before turning 20!

Our schools here really don't skip kids which I think sometimes hinder the ones that truly would benefit from it.
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:29 AM
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Very interesting topic of conversation!

My experience, my youngest brother (14 yrs younger than me) was 4 when he started Kindy. His bday is Aug 29th with the state cut off at the time was Sep 1st. They gave my mom the option to wait another year or send him. Him being the last of 5 kids, my mom made the decision to send him at 4. Althought she wont admit it, I think after 5 kids she wanted a break! Hahaha. I dont blame her. Growing up the youngest of 5 kids, socially he was more than ready. He learned how to ride his bike without traning wheels at age 2, so phyisically he was ready. He did really well through about 4th grade and then academically REALLY struggled. At that time no child left behind started to come into play. Most schools interpretted that law that no child could be held back. Between the school and my mom they helped him limp along. His freshman year of highschool he flunked out, and then he went to an alternative high school, where he excelled. They focus more on job skills training rather than straight academics.

@ Nannyde that is wonderful that your district will move kids up to their academic peers for individual classes. I am having some HUGE problems with my 10 year old son right now in regards to that.

He is academically advanced in of his subjects. He got THE highest score on his math and reading state assessments in ALL of the state. He is in the 5th grade and getting extremely bored. To compound the issue he is PDD-NOS (autism spectrum) and ADHD. Every year his teacher recommends him to skip the next grade and they go through this whole review and then say no. Mostly stating his social issues as the reason. Which I get on one hand, but on the other hand he would need to be in the 2nd grade if they were going to match him up with his peers that mostly closely resembled his social/maturity level. No matter what peer group you put him in he is going to be socially awkward. Last year his 4th grade teacher kind of hinted at something to me which I had not thought of. (She is a really great friend and her youngest DD has been with me at my daycare since age 18 months) She said that since so much is based on the state testing, Ie funding, rank, they are so hesitant about skipping kids these days, stating maturity/social reasons. But in actuality its to keep their test scores high for that grade level. I have seriously considered homeschooling him. The problem is his major issues are social, and I can't replicate the social environment at school. His teacher this year has been AMAZING. She has pretty much created a curriculum just for him! He also gets to help her create the curriculum and teach it to the other students instead of going to a normal reading group. So scared for him next year when he goes to Middle School. Where he is supposed to once again fit in on the assembly line that the education system has become.

On another note, when I was in elementary school they were starting to do the combined grade class rooms. You know where the class is made up of a combination of 3rd/4th graders, for example. What ever happen with that? Are they still doing that?
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Old 03-06-2012, 06:42 AM
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Some schools so the combo classes but I know it is hard for some teachers to do it. Trying to teach one grade and get everything in is hard let alone two grades. With all the state testing and that its getting to be over the top. We had one at our school this year but it ended up to be only 7 kids from the lower grade so they just put them in the other two classes bumping everyone up to 29 kids. Those two teachers where not happy because the teacher that ended up without them went down to like 19 kids.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:19 AM
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wow your school systems are so different. Here in ontario its so rare for kids to skip grades, acually its almost unheard off. We have spit grades but because we have to have a certain number of children in a classroom. We have jk (junior kindy) and you have to be 3 in jan--turning 4 by the end of dec. You don't have to send them but many do, I did and my dd was so bored as she is the youngest of 4 so she already knew all the stuff. Its also free, so you don't have to send them and no on really cares. You also don't even have to be ready for school. I couldn't believe her report card when it said that children needed to learn how to---wash their hands, put their coats on, cut with scissors, hold a pencil, put their shoes on. and here I thought those skills were suppose to be taught at home, but her teacher said that so many children don't know basic skills thats why they need to start at the beginning.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:31 AM
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My husband's son (now in middle school) has a birthday in very late July. As a result he started school just a month after his 5th birthday. While he's done fine academically, he's always been upset that he's smaller and younger than most of his peers - which is worsened by the fact that he's naturally introverted, shy and a perfectionist. My husband wished they'd held off letting him start school for another year. Our daughter ended up with a late-July birthday as well and initially my husband thought, based on his previous experience, that we should have our daughter wait. But she's tall for her age, speaks very well, is bright and outgoing and most of her playmates are 4-5yo (she's 2.5yo). If she keeps up at this rate I think she'd have no problem going to kindy as a barely-5yo. I think it really depends on the child and I think it, like many things, should be an individual decision.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:58 AM
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I have heard of this issue before. The deciding factor for us is to have our kids start school with the outcome being graduation at 18 years old. It is my experience and my husband's that it can cause issues regarding jobs, housing, student loans, etc to graduate high school at 17. It may appear that we are "red shirting" but the graduation issue is the reason, not an effort to have our kids appear to excel. Actually, I would rather they start school sooner because especially with our oldest, she is capable of doing well even if she was younger in the class.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by cheerfuldom View Post
I have heard of this issue before. The deciding factor for us is to have our kids start school with the outcome being graduation at 18 years old. It is my experience and my husband's that it can cause issues regarding jobs, housing, student loans, etc to graduate high school at 17. It may appear that we are "red shirting" but the graduation issue is the reason, not an effort to have our kids appear to excel. Actually, I would rather they start school sooner because especially with our oldest, she is capable of doing well even if she was younger in the class.
I graduated when I was 17 and never had any issues. I should have graduated in June and then would have turned 18 the end of August, but I graduated in January. In fact I graduated with all honors, a 4.2 gpa, took as many AP classes as my school offered and even made valedictiorian. I decided to do this so I could work and save up money since I would be going into college in September. I had lots of friends that I started college with that didnt turn 18 until September and some even in November. I can't think of one instance where being 17 made any difference to those that were already 18. Except those that were 17 didnt get hounded by all the credit card people! Whether it be 17 or 18 you still needed all your parents signatures for everything school related, especially the financial aid bit, because they go off your parents income till your 23 anyway.

Don't get me wrong I see your reasoning and totally see all the valid reasons for waiting to have your kids start. Just saying in my experience I never saw being 17 for a few months in college as an issue. The only thing that hindered me at my job being 17 was, I couldn't actually ring up bottles of wine (I worked at the airport giftshop) until I was 18. I could restock it, bag it, but couldnt ring it up or take money for it. LOL.
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:32 PM
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countrymom countrymom is offline
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the only difference between graduating at 17 and 18 is the legal drinking age. I couldn't go to the bars but I can go to college. But then when I turned 18 all my friends where 17so I was the only one who could go to the bars. lol!
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Old 03-06-2012, 12:33 PM
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Here in Canada...at least in my province if you're 6 you have to go to grade one!! There are no 6 yr olds in kinder. That's ridiculous!!
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by countrymom View Post
the only difference between graduating at 17 and 18 is the legal drinking age. I couldn't go to the bars but I can go to college. But then when I turned 18 all my friends where 17so I was the only one who could go to the bars. lol!
This might be true in Canada but here in the US you can't drink until 21 years of age. You can join the miltary and vote at 18 but you cannot have a beer.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:20 PM
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I don't understand something. Are the children being kept out currently in some sort of preschool? And if not are they being taught at home. Because if not on either scenario, how would holding them back a year put them at the top of the class? Couldn't pull up segment so maybe I missed something among the posts.
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