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Old 07-05-2014, 07:16 AM
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Default Attachment Parenting Has Been On My Mind

I've been thinking about attachment parenting these days. In my consulting business I do quite a few consults with providers who are trying to integrate new babies and toddlers into care. There is a pattern in my little world of the providers describing the parents as parents who claim they practice attachment parenting. Obviously, the integration isn't going well. They wouldn't pay me to tell me how great the kids are fitting in.

I hear story after story and providers feel helpless that the only tools they get from the parents and their online support groups is to either term, carry the baby wrapped, hold during naps etc. That would solve the crying with any kid regardless of how they are being parented.

I also participate but mostly lurk on attachment parenting internet groups. It's again, a small population but the patterns of concern are the same and the solutions are the same.

One of the stories I heard recently was of a mom with a toddler and a newborn who is a sahm part time. She talks about how she is exhausted managing a newborn and a mobile one year old who both are being parented with breastfeeding, sling wearing, co sleeping, attached nipple suckling for comfort, motion consolation, etc. Typical garden variety methods to be immediately receptive and active in stopping or fending off crying.

So this Mom can't get the one year old to settle for a nap and the kid is going days at a time where he is up for all but a seven to eight hour night. He is not adjusting to not being able to comfort suckle all night because the newborn needs his time at the tap.

So nap times the only thing that works is to either drive the kids around in the car or take them for a stroller ride. They only own a single stroller so the toddler rides and the baby is in a wrap for the walk.

The mom, who is EXHAUSTED, takes them for a walk and the one year old passes out in the stroller. She heads back home to SIT and have a little time where she's got them both asleep. She sits on the front step and has to rock the stroller back and forth to keep the toddler asleep and because there isn't shade at her steps she has to hold an umbrella over her and the kids.

That's her naptime. Pushing a stroller forward and backward, sling carrying the baby, and holding an umbrella over their heads. All the while, just a few feet away is two empty cribs, cable tv, internet, and a couch. She doesn't put the two un their beds and plop herself down on the couch because.... she doesn't want them to cry.

I have this image in my head and all I can think of is "aren't you TIRED?". I'm exhausted thinking about this life of yours and I can think of something else. You live it.

I think about how labor intensive it is to parent this way. I deal with providers who, because the care that mimics their parental care is SO labor intensive, they are trying to figure out a way to keep the kid without going crazy or going broke. There's no money in one to one care in a group setting.

I think about the huge upfront investment of time and energy it takes to have SO much of the parenting time be physically attached in the purest sense of the word. Short of having them put back in the womb, I can't figure a way you COULD do more.

I wonder what the end game is? I read about attachment kids having higher IQ's and better health. I get that these core measurable outcomes are going to be promoted even if the research compares them to a group of Romanian orphans.

What I don't get is why, after a good long time of this style of parenting being popular and an ever increasing number of parents claiming it, is the outcomes not so apparent .... so unmistakable.... that school systems, developmental researchers, churches, doctors, and child cares spot the kids for their high quality outcomes.

I would think by now, a Kindergarten teacher could tell which kids were parented this way within a few weeks of having them in their classrooms. I would think their test scores would be significantly higher in every core area of studies. I would think their behavioral outcomes such as calm, focused, tolerant, empathetic, non violent would be easily seen in comparison to their peers who did not have the good fortune of being raised this way.

I expect those promoting it who make money off of it to be able to identify the excellent outcomes. I also would expect those who don't have a dog in the fight to be able to too. That's what I don't see.

I hold this style of parenting at a higher standard because the line has been drawn with the claim that crying causes brain damage. If these kids have the first five years with their needs and wants being quickly.met to avoid crying brain damage then they SHOULD stand out amongst the group where the brain damaged kids are sitting next to them in class.

Teachers especially should be able to spot them a mile away. Providers should be able to tell that their preschoolers had an infancy of this type of care. These kids should have OBVIOUS differences in the core areas of health, intelligence, behavior. The adults who don't make money off of them should be coming forward and going public with their findings. When something phenomenal is happening en masse the world finds out about it quicklike. The parents share it but where are the ones who benefit from it and are in awe of it coming forward?

I think of the newbie mom who most likely wants the best for her kid. I think about asking her about what she foresees as the end game for her VERY hard and selfless minute to minute. I know she believes what she is doing is right. I just fear that by the time she realizes that all of that effort didn't make a bit of difference or possibly hurt her child's first public experience... I wonder if she will think that she paid a heavy price to make sure her kids didn't cry.

The price on the providers is very high. Few are equipped to replicate this parenting style. I worry about the stress on the providers and the cumulative stress of getting nearly every baby with some version of a no cry home life.

I worry that this is a scam and in combination with the other things going on in the care and raising kids like screen addiction, poor diet, poor sleep, poor exercise, that we are going to see a decline in the quality of kids behavior and health at a rate we have never seen before in our country's history.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:47 AM
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I've been lurking around here the last week and decided to join today so I can post to this.

It's bizarre this trend of never wanting a child to cry. I completely am against cry it out when it comes to sleeping. With my now 2 year old, I did what I would consider "attachment parenting" in that he slept in the same room with me (sometimes in my bed), nursed on demand, was very attentive to his needs. But I also allowed him to cry. I still do hold and cuddle him to fall asleep, but once he's asleep, he's in his crib! If he is mad about not getting his way, it's ok, he can cry!

I think parents are confusing the being attentive and the no crying part. A young child is GOING TO CRY. Yes you are going to make sure their basic needs are met, they are not hurt, and see if you can help them emotionally, but if all that fails, then it is ok for them to cry. It is part of how they express themselves and you can not, nor should you, stop it all the time.

I feel sorry for moms that put this kind of pressure on themselves. We have been lucky in our center that all of our kids that came straight from being home with mom all day have made a great adjustment to the child care setting. I'm sure many providers struggle with the demands of having a child that needs constant attention in this way, because it is just not feasible!
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
I've been thinking about attachment parenting these days. In my consulting business I do quite a few consults with providers who are trying to integrate new babies and toddlers into care. There is a pattern in my little world of the providers describing the parents as parents who claim they practice attachment parenting. Obviously, the integration isn't going well. They wouldn't pay me to tell me how great the kids are fitting in.

I hear story after story and providers feel helpless that the only tools they get from the parents and their online support groups is to either term, carry the baby wrapped, hold during naps etc. That would solve the crying with any kid regardless of how they are being parented.

I also participate but mostly lurk on attachment parenting internet groups. It's again, a small population but the patterns of concern are the same and the solutions are the same.

One of the stories I heard recently was of a mom with a toddler and a newborn who is a sahm part time. She talks about how she is exhausted managing a newborn and a mobile one year old who both are being parented with breastfeeding, sling wearing, co sleeping, attached nipple suckling for comfort, motion consolation, etc. Typical garden variety methods to be immediately receptive and active in stopping or fending off crying.

So this Mom can't get the one year old to settle for a nap and the kid is going days at a time where he is up for all but a seven to eight hour night. He is not adjusting to not being able to comfort suckle all night because the newborn needs his time at the tap.

So nap times the only thing that works is to either drive the kids around in the car or take them for a stroller ride. They only own a single stroller so the toddler rides and the baby is in a wrap for the walk.

The mom, who is EXHAUSTED, takes them for a walk and the one year old passes out in the stroller. She heads back home to SIT and have a little time where she's got them both asleep. She sits on the front step and has to rock the stroller back and forth to keep the toddler asleep and because there isn't shade at her steps she has to hold an umbrella over her and the kids.

That's her naptime. Pushing a stroller forward and backward, sling carrying the baby, and holding an umbrella over their heads. All the while, just a few feet away is two empty cribs, cable tv, internet, and a couch. She doesn't put the two un their beds and plop herself down on the couch because.... she doesn't want them to cry.

I have this image in my head and all I can think of is "aren't you TIRED?". I'm exhausted thinking about this life of yours and I can think of something else. You live it.

I think about how labor intensive it is to parent this way. I deal with providers who, because the care that mimics their parental care is SO labor intensive, they are trying to figure out a way to keep the kid without going crazy or going broke. There's no money in one to one care in a group setting.

I think about the huge upfront investment of time and energy it takes to have SO much of the parenting time be physically attached in the purest sense of the word. Short of having them put back in the womb, I can't figure a way you COULD do more.

I wonder what the end game is? I read about attachment kids having higher IQ's and better health. I get that these core measurable outcomes are going to be promoted even if the research compares them to a group of Romanian orphans.

What I don't get is why, after a good long time of this style of parenting being popular and an ever increasing number of parents claiming it, is the outcomes not so apparent .... so unmistakable.... that school systems, developmental researchers, churches, doctors, and child cares spot the kids for their high quality outcomes.

I would think by now, a Kindergarten teacher could tell which kids were parented this way within a few weeks of having them in their classrooms. I would think their test scores would be significantly higher in every core area of studies. I would think their behavioral outcomes such as calm, focused, tolerant, empathetic, non violent would be easily seen in comparison to their peers who did not have the good fortune of being raised this way.

I expect those promoting it who make money off of it to be able to identify the excellent outcomes. I also would expect those who don't have a dog in the fight to be able to too. That's what I don't see.

I hold this style of parenting at a higher standard because the line has been drawn with the claim that crying causes brain damage. If these kids have the first five years with their needs and wants being quickly.met to avoid crying brain damage then they SHOULD stand out amongst the group where the brain damaged kids are sitting next to them in class.

Teachers especially should be able to spot them a mile away. Providers should be able to tell that their preschoolers had an infancy of this type of care. These kids should have OBVIOUS differences in the core areas of health, intelligence, behavior. The adults who don't make money off of them should be coming forward and going public with their findings. When something phenomenal is happening en masse the world finds out about it quicklike. The parents share it but where are the ones who benefit from it and are in awe of it coming forward?

I think of the newbie mom who most likely wants the best for her kid. I think about asking her about what she foresees as the end game for her VERY hard and selfless minute to minute. I know she believes what she is doing is right. I just fear that by the time she realizes that all of that effort didn't make a bit of difference or possibly hurt her child's first public experience... I wonder if she will think that she paid a heavy price to make sure her kids didn't cry.

The price on the providers is very high. Few are equipped to replicate this parenting style. I worry about the stress on the providers and the cumulative stress of getting nearly every baby with some version of a no cry home life.

I worry that this is a scam and in combination with the other things going on in the care and raising kids like screen addiction, poor diet, poor sleep, poor exercise, that we are going to see a decline in the quality of kids behavior and health at a rate we have never seen before in our country's history.
Wow that's a lot to have on your mind!

I can say from experience that attachment parenting does not give the desired outcome.

When I had my oldest, now 13, I was a sahm and catered to her every whim. She would not nap. It took forever to get this baby to fall asleep (by rocking of course) and then I had to sit in the recliner and hold her, not moving a muscle or she would surely wake up.

She required so much attention I was physically and mentally and emotionally exhausted! It wasn't that I didn't want her to cry, I just wanted her to know that I was there for her, if that makes sense. (not really lol)

When the time came that I had enough, around a year old, I tried to get her into her own bed. Didn't go so well, this girl would cry for days if I let her!

In 1st grade she was diagnosed with ADD, not hyperactivity, but trouble focusing. She needs lots of prodding to continue her school work (or anything really) or she will drift off into daydreaming and not even realize time is passing. We are now seeking an iep because it has become a huge problem this year in 7th grade. She is very smart, but lacks focus. When she does the work she gets good grades, the trouble is getting her to remember to bring her homework home, stop daydreaming, etc.

It took such a toll on me that I was afraid to have more children! My first 2 kids are 6 years apart.

My 2nd daughter was on a schedule by 4 months old, perfect sleeper, perfect eater, self soothed wonderfully and could play for hours by herself. This girl is super smart and has zero trouble focusing. She just finished kindergarten and they had her in a 2nd grade reading group. She is a whiz at math.

My son is 3 years apart from my 2nd child and is following the same path, being on schedule, etc.

Knowing what I do now, I would have had my first child on a schedule right away. Hindsight....

I feel that in the long run attachment parenting teaches kids that they need constant entertainment, they need someone to do everything for them, it does more harm than good.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:16 AM
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I want to add that I only touched lightly on my oldest's focusing issues. It has always been a problem, but we managed. This year it became a HUGE problem.

I could go on about our day to day struggle with her but you get the point.

Of course she may have had these issues regardless, I guess we'll never know. But my own experience with my other kids says otherwise
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:48 AM
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I attempted to parent my daughter in this fashion (I cosleep at nights, breastfed, etc), but my daughter's naturally intense/spirited temperament just made it all the more stressful...because she didn't stop crying for the first 16 months of her life leading me to believe I was a big fat failure in the AP community She's 2 now and I don't use as many AP tactics as I did when she was younger. She's till HIGHLY temperamental (more-so than any other 2 year old that I've met), but when she was assessed with the Meier's Briggs test at 20 months, her skills/intelligence ranked her 8-14 months advanced in all areas. She's smart, but way overly intense. I accept her temperament is something she was born with, but sometimes wonder if my constant coddling as a younger infant intensified that temperament.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:53 AM
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To my mind, the second largest problem these parents have is that they have zero right to expect to place their child in any kind of group care. And eventually that will include school (unless they plan to homeschool).

The largest problem these parents have is THEIR CHILD. Maybe there are families who have done this with total success. But the ones I have seen, their children are not happier. They are not even happy. I saw one the other day (about four years old) who ran crying to his mom because another child on the playground said something he didn't like. He tells his mom "Calm me down!! Make me HAPPY!!! You have to MAKE ME HAPPY NOW" He clearly had figured the division of responsibilities in his family.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:56 AM
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Don't take this the wrong way, Nan, because you DO have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is very valuable.

But in my years on this board I've noticed that you seem to, I don't know, hold a grudge against any of the gentler parenting approaches. Your "old school" style is just the bees knees and nothing else has any merit--that's the vibe I get.

But I'm a young mom (young in years, old in the way my brain works, haha) and I'm down here in the trenches of the modern parenting techniques. So let me tell you that you are only seeing the AP parents who are doing it wrong. You don't see or hear about the ones who are doing it right because THEY ARE NOT THE PROBLEMS. Also, many of them aren't going to be utilizing daycare.

At it's heart, AP is NOT intended to be about "no cry" or sacrificing mom's needs for the happiness of the child. BUT that's how a lot of people interpret it...due to either the "nazi-esque" mommy-bloggers and forums, a certain lack of reading comprehension that only takes in half the information being presented (a problem in many places I've observed, not just parenting related), or due to something else I don't know what.

AP done right does result in happy, well-adjusted kids who can sleep anywhere for anyone, integrate well into daycare or preschool or kindergarten, and have good emotional control and regulation.

But...too many people interpret the basic tenets of AP like the Ten Commandments of Christianity. They treat it like a religion and what does religion do? Even if you're miserable you have to do it, right? Well The nazi-followers of it treat it that way. Thou shalt bedshare (even if it doesn't work for your child). Thou shalt breastfeed (and if you ever put a bottle in that baby's mouth it will never nurse again). Thou shalt never put baby on the floor (or ELLLLSSSSEEE DOOOOOOM). I could go on but I won't.

Because at it's heart...AP is supposed to be responsive to the child. Child sleeps better in a crib? Then he should sleep there. She doesn't like being held? Put her down. You are supposed to pay ATTENTION to your child and learn to read their cues for things (sleep, hunger, desire for time to play on the floor, etc). But people get it wrong and it's largely the Internet's fault.

Through people mentioning it here, I found out about RIE. Are you familiar with it? At it's heart it's more what AP is supposed to be. Responsive, respectful relationship with your baby/toddler that leads to a well-adjusted, independent child capable of great emotional regulation. It stresses what AP does not--that if it doesn't work for mommy or the family it's okay not to do it. Which is awesome! I fell in love, adopted some of the practices and got involved with a few Facebook groups just as it started going practically "viral" and the groups exploded in size....

...and I was very disheartened to watch this responsive, respectful style grow to be some of what I hate about AP type groups and forums, adopting a "NO YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT JUST BECAUSE IT WORKS BETTER FOR YOUR CHILD!!!!" type approach. "YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!" became an overwhelming message and I am now close to leaving those groups.

Anyway. I just want to say that it IS possible to use responsive and respectful methods in daycare. I do it every day. And I am willing to baby wear but haven't in three years because it makes my three year old very upset and jealous. I don't let babies cry uncontrolled for too long (no full on CIO here.) but I do have AWESOME sleepers.

I am sharing this to let you know that i respect you and your views and you have great information to share, but it's not your way or the highway--other things work too. Daycare needs to be approached the way parenting is: what works for the provider, and what works for the children THEY have in care. I could never provide care in the style you do, it wouldn't work for me. And you couldn't do it the way I do. And we're both okay because it works for us.

I don't think that AP/responsive/gentle approaches are what's causing the decline in children's behavior; I think it's bigger than that. Because for every parent striving to be gentle....I spent fifteen minutes trying to invent some statistics for how many are too rough, don't care, etc and couldn't...but it's way more than are trying to be gentle. Sure, AP-Gone-Wrong is a problem, not the basic tenets of "listen to your baby and respect his needs". The internet is more of a problem, with it's endless sources of quick entertainment for moms AND kids, it's scores of "perfect" mommy bloggers. The education system is more of a problem, with it's kids who have terrible reading comprehension and can't process more than 1 word in 3 on the page. The food is a problem, contributing to depression and behavior problems for children AND adults. The healthcare system is a problem, that it can't catch the problems AND TREAT THEM early and affordably enough. Society is the problem and the horrifying disintigration of the "village" it has always taken to raise a child. Fear is a problem, where parents are convinced that they can't take their eyes off their babies for even an instant lest they be snatched by a pedophile in sheep's clothing.

It goes far, far beyond the set of parents who get one parenting style wrong.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:57 AM
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Ha, the random question for this comment was CIO

But, I thought the Myers-Briggs was a personality inventory.
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25 View Post
Don't take this the wrong way, Nan, because you DO have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is very valuable.

But in my years on this board I've noticed that you seem to, I don't know, hold a grudge against any of the gentler parenting approaches. Your "old school" style is just the bees knees and nothing else has any merit--that's the vibe I get.

But I'm a young mom (young in years, old in the way my brain works, haha) and I'm down here in the trenches of the modern parenting techniques. So let me tell you that you are only seeing the AP parents who are doing it wrong. You don't see or hear about the ones who are doing it right because THEY ARE NOT THE PROBLEMS. Also, many of them aren't going to be utilizing daycare.

At it's heart, AP is NOT intended to be about "no cry" or sacrificing mom's needs for the happiness of the child. BUT that's how a lot of people interpret it...due to either the "nazi-esque" mommy-bloggers and forums, a certain lack of reading comprehension that only takes in half the information being presented (a problem in many places I've observed, not just parenting related), or due to something else I don't know what.

AP done right does result in happy, well-adjusted kids who can sleep anywhere for anyone, integrate well into daycare or preschool or kindergarten, and have good emotional control and regulation.

But...too many people interpret the basic tenets of AP like the Ten Commandments of Christianity. They treat it like a religion and what does religion do? Even if you're miserable you have to do it, right? Well The nazi-followers of it treat it that way. Thou shalt bedshare (even if it doesn't work for your child). Thou shalt breastfeed (and if you ever put a bottle in that baby's mouth it will never nurse again). Thou shalt never put baby on the floor (or ELLLLSSSSEEE DOOOOOOM). I could go on but I won't.

Because at it's heart...AP is supposed to be responsive to the child. Child sleeps better in a crib? Then he should sleep there. She doesn't like being held? Put her down. You are supposed to pay ATTENTION to your child and learn to read their cues for things (sleep, hunger, desire for time to play on the floor, etc). But people get it wrong and it's largely the Internet's fault.

Through people mentioning it here, I found out about RIE. Are you familiar with it? At it's heart it's more what AP is supposed to be. Responsive, respectful relationship with your baby/toddler that leads to a well-adjusted, independent child capable of great emotional regulation. It stresses what AP does not--that if it doesn't work for mommy or the family it's okay not to do it. Which is awesome! I fell in love, adopted some of the practices and got involved with a few Facebook groups just as it started going practically "viral" and the groups exploded in size....

...and I was very disheartened to watch this responsive, respectful style grow to be some of what I hate about AP type groups and forums, adopting a "NO YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT JUST BECAUSE IT WORKS BETTER FOR YOUR CHILD!!!!" type approach. "YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!" became an overwhelming message and I am now close to leaving those groups.

Anyway. I just want to say that it IS possible to use responsive and respectful methods in daycare. I do it every day. And I am willing to baby wear but haven't in three years because it makes my three year old very upset and jealous. I don't let babies cry uncontrolled for too long (no full on CIO here.) but I do have AWESOME sleepers.

I am sharing this to let you know that i respect you and your views and you have great information to share, but it's not your way or the highway--other things work too. Daycare needs to be approached the way parenting is: what works for the provider, and what works for the children THEY have in care. I could never provide care in the style you do, it wouldn't work for me. And you couldn't do it the way I do. And we're both okay because it works for us.

I don't think that AP/responsive/gentle approaches are what's causing the decline in children's behavior; I think it's bigger than that. Because for every parent striving to be gentle....I spent fifteen minutes trying to invent some statistics for how many are too rough, don't care, etc and couldn't...but it's way more than are trying to be gentle. Sure, AP-Gone-Wrong is a problem, not the basic tenets of "listen to your baby and respect his needs". The internet is more of a problem, with it's endless sources of quick entertainment for moms AND kids, it's scores of "perfect" mommy bloggers. The education system is more of a problem, with it's kids who have terrible reading comprehension and can't process more than 1 word in 3 on the page. The food is a problem, contributing to depression and behavior problems for children AND adults. The healthcare system is a problem, that it can't catch the problems AND TREAT THEM early and affordably enough. Society is the problem and the horrifying disintigration of the "village" it has always taken to raise a child. Fear is a problem, where parents are convinced that they can't take their eyes off their babies for even an instant lest they be snatched by a pedophile in sheep's clothing.

It goes far, far beyond the set of parents who get one parenting style wrong.
I was pretty careful when I wrote this to not focus on how it doesn't work. I'm actually bored with that. For years we have read post after post of providers having the babies who cry if they don't have an adult minute to minute. The internet is full of staunch supporters of AP who vent about their kid hitting them, being rude in public, keeping them up all night, living off of goldfish crackers. That's the same story as the kids who have been neglected and have parents who don't care. I, frankly, can't tell the difference of the two extremes.

Why I wrote the post was to take it to the next level and ask why we haven't seen these kids being forwarded in society as the kids who have the most excellent outcomes. We can measure outcomes. I'm interested in why we haven't heard from teachers, church workers, providers, family of the kids etc. who would truly benefit from the outcomes I believe are the natural outcomes advertised for this style of parenting.

This is a labor intensive approach to child rearing. It's WAY harder than what I do. I would think there would be a natural pay off... a pay off that would sweep the nation. The techniques have... but the product of a calm, stable, centered, polite, non violent, universal thinking, healthy, high intellect child who has been gifted with this upbringing has not.

If our Kindergarten teachers had classrooms of kids who met those markers in droves... trust me we would hear about it. The teachers would be on it like Donkey Kong trying to figure out the special sauce. If child care providers were taking in chilled out fulfilled babies they would be bragging to the point where everyone would want to be a child care provider.

I personally don't have a feeling about it either way. I can take a baby that is neglected or a baby who is uber attachment parented and have the same results. I don't have a problem taking attachment kids because my methods net the same kid. I'm skilled to the level that as long as the kid isn't be abused, I can end up with a group of like kids in the marker behaviors I listed. In other words, it's no skin off my back either way. I prefer the middle ground because it's easier but the time it takes to bring the baby or kid to the middle is a blip in the time they are in my care.

I don't take offense to your belief that I'm closed off to new parenting and believe my way is the only way. I've been doing this for thirty years plus and as the cycle of parenting goes round and round, I will rarely be within what is currently new parenting. I don't change my views but they do keep coming around every now and then. Right now no... but give it a decade and I will be smack dab in the "new parenting" once again.

I enjoyed your prospective except for the part where you said "they are doing it wrong". That is getting old. They aren't doing it wrong because it's not that complicated and it IS rooted in no cry. What they are doing is almost exclusively about keeping the baby from crying. A baby that is happy playing on the floor isn't going to be popped in a sling. A baby sleeping thru the night isn't going to be put on the nipple for comfort. The responses that I call labor intensive ARE to stop crying.

My worry with that is the parents start the no crying from birth and it goes through the ones. The parent doesn't learn to manage crying so the methods they used for the infant continue with the one year old. Soon the one year old becomes two and the parent STILL can't deal with the crying. And on and on...

At some point the brain damage theory that goes along with crying needs to have an age limit. If we don't spread the word, the five year old's parents still use the infant techniques because they haven't seen the value of a good cry.


I'm not against attachment parenting. I'm truly not. To me it is something "to do" with your baby and kid. I personally wouldn't do it but I'm not into making things harder than they have to be. I prefer easy. Put the work in up front and sit back and reap the rewards.

I would like to see AP parents ask the same question I posed. I think it's a fair question. It's NOT a loaded question either. I'm really interested in seeing this kind of parenting succeed if it is for real. I wonder WHEN we are going to see the product that has been advertised. To me, it should be on the market now. There's been enough time.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:12 AM
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WOW, Nan and Silver! You have some very compelling points! My first thought is on this RIE you mentioned, Silver. I was thinking, isn't that just regular ole parenting?? I respond to babies needs, I try to read their queues, I do what I can to make them happy, WITHIN REASON. I DO NOT hold just for the sake of holding, I don't, and never will, "wear" anybody, If they don't want to lay down to rest/nap, too bad so sad but they're doing it anyway. I make every effort to respond in a caring way so that they know I truly want to decipher what it is that they need, but also, that I call the shots in the end.

I personally feel like AP allows the child to be in charge of every aspect of the adult's life. I think it teaches the child entitlement and to have an "if I whine, they will come dashing to me" attitude. Because, ya know, they will. I believe these children may have a significantly higher chance of being high maintenance, demanding, "the world owes me something" adults. Keep in mind, these are my opinions, not the gospel. And this is coming from someone who co-slept for almost 6 years and it was FRIGGIN MISERABLE 90% of the time. I know there's much more to AP than co-sleeping, I was just pointing that out.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:32 AM
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Silver I hope my post didn't come off as harsh. I don't mean it like that. I'm going to turn this into an article and I have been thinking about it for days trying to square the concepts. I'm not there yet so I just did a rough sketch with this post.

I've been reading for a week or so the research supporting the attachment parenting. I'm a lurker on ap websites and boards. I don't contribute much so I don't have these conversations much. I just ponder.

Lately I have seen so many threads where the problems the parents claim are bugging the hell out of me. I read one the other day about a breastfeeding mom who's older baby won't nurse unless he is scratching, pinching, clawing her other nipple while he sucks. It hurts but he is so darn cute. Wha? Another one about her kid doing the same thing for the last TEN months but the mom endures because she wants the kid to nurse. Few threads previous the same parent is talking about the kid keeping her up all night then slapping her across the face when the bedtime story ends.

Solution? Tell the baby no.. that hurts mommy. Use gentle hands.

I can't tell you how many stories about the kids being screen addicts and won't eat anything but treats. Extended breastfeeding plus hot dogs and gummy worms.

Every story I think... isn't this approach supposed to be an insurance policy against violence? The attached two year old sucker punches his mom? The all night reverse cycling breastfeeding tone year old on hot dogs? Isn't the method an insurance policy against poor eating habits? Three year old up in the middle of the night watching Frozen? Isn't co sleeping end game a deep sleeping all nighter kid?

I don't see the value of the adult intensive care in the core areas of child growth and development if you don't net the highest quality in those areas.
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Old 07-05-2014, 10:34 AM
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When I was 22, I had my son (he's now 7). I was young and new and scared and although I was married, I was pretty much on my own.

I naturally went to the book store and picked up a parenting book. Unfortunately, I picked up one of Dr. Sears' books. From what I can remember from the blur that was the first two years of my son's life, it was fairly heavily attachment parenting based.

I remember getting to a point somewhere after my son's first birthday when I realized I hadn't slept in a year. I mean, I laid down and closed my eyes, but I never had a good deep restorative sleep. In. A. Year. And I wasn't "doing it wrong"... I was following what the internet and good ol' Dr. Sears was suggesting. And it must be correct, right? I was the newbie and they were the experienced ones who held all of the knowledge I was seeking.

He was fed on demand through his first year. I remember his pediatrician asking how many ounces he was consuming in a day and I honestly didn't know. He made a peep and received a bottle. Of course, I could have easily documented what he was eating, but I was in a daze of non-sleep combined with a panic of do-not-cry-oh-please-don't-cry.

He was also fed to sleep. Oh how I cringe when I think back and realize that that was just stupid. Eating and sleeping are two separate activities, but it got to the point that they each depended on the other.

We co-slept the entire first year. At one point after his first birthday I decided enough was enough and set up a PNP next to my bed. He wouldn't sleep. He simply screamed and screamed and that was enough to set my oh-good-gravy-babies-aren't-supposed-to-scream-this-means-I'm-ruining-my-precious-baby brain into hysterics. So I slept on the floor next to his PNP. In hindsight, that was worse than sleeping in the bed WITH him. At least that way I was getting a little sleep... laying on the floor was horrible for my body and it didn't even work. He came back into our bed pretty quickly.

I thought he was just "spirited" or "high maintenance". No, he just had an ignorant mother who wanted the best for her child, but was really truly clueless.

My parenting style has done a complete 180 in the last 5 years. I have been left with an entitled, screen addicted 7 year old boy who treats me with disrespect. And I'm the only one to blame. I effed up. Yes, he is freaking brilliant... but he's MY child, so obviously he was destined to become a genius regardless of my parenting philosophy.

I've spent the last five years attempting to undo what I did in his first two years. I'm tough now. I don't put up with crap. But there's still that "I deserve to be happy constantly" that shows up often.

All of that to say that I think attachment parenting is a load of bull and that it IS a scam to sell books. I've never met an attachment parented child who is well adjusted. I've never met one that doesn't have at least one helicopter parent circling above.

In response to Silver's comment about people just doing it wrong... the problem is that MOST parents are doing it wrong.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:23 AM
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<<<I read about attachment kids having higher IQ's and better health.>>>

I think that the above is more correlation rather than causation. It's the higher IQ moms and dads that would likely have the luxury of being able to attempt this kind of parenting style. Most are SAHP/WAHP, high enough income that they aren't juggling low income job(s), and don't have the stresses of poverty added on to the demands of an "attached" infant/toddler. Higher IQ parents generally produce higher IQ children.

As for the health aspect, children of higher income and/or SAHP/WAHP would see doctors more often than the lower income parent who is juggling one or more low income jobs and maybe have neither the time or resources to take their children to the doctor regularly.

Oh, and for the "yeah, but-ers", I've deliberately used words like more, most, and generally. I realize that there are exceptions (low income moms who are attachment parents, low IQ parents who produce high IQ children).
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:38 AM
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I find that I use different techniques for different children. Children are not one-size-fits-all, even if you "wear" them. Especially children from a variety of families.
Some flexibility and a large "bag of tricks" is what works for me.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:42 AM
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I find that I use different techniques for different children. Children are not one-size-fits-all, even if you "wear" them. Especially children from a variety of families.
Some flexibility and a large "bag of tricks" is what works for me.
Ditto!
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Old 07-05-2014, 12:04 PM
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Throughout my 17 years of childcare experience (not including my teenage babysitting years), I have nannied for many families and I have gathered a weath of experience (which has been wonderful now that I have my own 4 year old).
Even at the age of 19 (long before I had my own child), I had an idea of how I wanted to raise my own. There were the families who would give into their child's every whim, over coddle, and have the hardest time putting their children to bed (they need to be rocked until fallen asleep, you needed to lay down with them, etc, etc, etc)..... Then there were the families who would read their child a story, say goodnight and turn out the light. The kids were happy, the parents were happy, there was no screaming, no crying, no fits.... I thought to myself, WOW! What a difference structure and a bit of independence makes! Now, here we were 12 years later (when I had my own child). I thought about the families I cared for and the experience I have gained and I took from my experience, what would work best for my family. I wanted my son to be a good sleeper, a good eater, and a happy baby (I understand that some things are out of your control). Of course, I gave him lots of cuddles and love, but I also put him on a schedule (when it was age appropriate). He ate so well, he was content without being held constantly, and he would sleep like a champ. Yes, he cried for a bit when he was first put in his crib for the night. And my husband, who had no experience with children, would want to pick him up right away. I would block the door.... It only took my son a couple of nights for him to contently fall asleep on his own. Leading up to this..... He would sleep in a bassinet by our bed, but I would let him have his naps in his crib- so he would be accustomed to it.
The parents, who had such a hard time with structure, bedtime, etc, at their home, had no clue how easy it was at other peoples houses. I think they believe that this is the norm? And the same thing goes for a local mom I know. She practices ap parenting (I don't have any problem with anyone's choice of parenting, but she was very vocal with what she deemed as the correct way to parent). She would complain how her toddler wouldn't take naps, how she kicked her and her husband all night, and how she would never sleep on her own and how exhausted this made the mother (because her child would scream bloody murder if left on her own, or with a sitter- so the parents never had a break). Of course, once I told her that I put my child on a schedule she said she would never let her child "cry it out". I chuckled to myself, because her child was the one screaming through the bedtime routine a couple years later. My child can be put to bed with a sitter, at his grandparents, or home, with no problems at all.

To be honest, I was really nervous about having my own child. I was so accustomed to being around children who would scream, cry, have major tantrums, that I did think my own could be like that (On a positive note, I have also nannied for very normal families whose children I adore....you just need to weed through during the interview process). And then I thought... This is my own child, I can choose any parenting style I deem fit. You know..... My child (who is newly 4), is no angel... He is all boy and can be rambunctious at times. But... He is very respectful, he transitions well, he may try to negotiate, but he doesn't have trantrums and he is an all around happy kid! I just read something going around Facebook about how to talk to your children differently and a couple of things that stood out to me were....

If your child is having a tantrum, ask them if they would like hugs until they feel better...

If your child wants certain cereal and you don't have it, tell him, "I know you are upset, I wish I had magical powers to make your cereal appear", or something on the lines of that.....

I thought to myself.... This is the problem... Kids are so coddled, that parents have to spring into action and have an answer or solution to all/ or any problems that arise. How about not showing any attention to a child that is throwing a fit (unless there really is a problem)? Or telling your child that you are out of the cereal they asked for and they just plain ole' accept that.....

The last family I nannied for (before having my child), was for an executive single mother (who was divorced). This is in an extremely weathly town where most of the families have aupairs or nannies. Her kids had everything they needed material wise, but they never saw their mother. They were raised by nannies. When she did actually see them, she would always have an excuse for their behavior. Oh.... They are hitting me because their dad doesn't live in the home anymore, they are hitting you because they are tired, they are throwing a fit because the snack they wanted wasn't in the vending machine at swim practice....
I wanted to scream, Hey lady!! Do you know the problems other people have?.... I nannied for a young family whose children lost their mother from cancer (they needed a nanny once she was unable to drive), I babysat for a family who lost their home once the parents divorced and the three boys moved into a small one bedroom apartment..... People go through a lot, but they still manage to parent (well, some of them anyway)...

I agree, I do like the good ole' way of parenting, rather than this new age trend (of course, there are extremes on either end).... I am a very easy going/fun loving parent, who provides discipline and structure. You can have a balance of both! And still manage to keep a bit of yourself too!.....
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Old 07-05-2014, 01:03 PM
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This topic is getting some depth! And just have to say.....love the knowledge on this site, it blows me away!

Here's my two cents.....

I've raised my 5 children similar to ap style. And everyone of them had different needs, making my ap style different every time.

I feel what is getting confused in the ap style is the lack of parenting know how, or knowledge of early education and care, to determine what is appropriate to offer the baby/child for emotional support, and where to draw the line for setting limits as the dependable, structured guardian.

A lot of parents are following a black and white pattern of ap style without seeing the ques babies give, as we as educated providers do, and missing these ques, to fill in the blanks of raising their children to a set pattern. That is the wrong way and idea behind ap. And as long as it continues, we will never truly be able to see any benefits of ap with statics, it will be quite the contrary.
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Old 07-05-2014, 01:38 PM
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I used a loose form of AP and it worked well for us. I have a well adjusted, happy go lucky 6 year old boy. I didn't follow it by the book. Just used what worked for us and ignored the rest.
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Old 07-05-2014, 02:12 PM
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I've never heard of AP until I joined this forum, so I'm fascinated. As far as the parents "doing it wrong" , could it be that they really don't know what it means? It seems to me that the main focus is on not letting baby cry. Even if mom has to suffer lack of sleep the baby must not cry.

There's a two year old in my center who comes in every morning with a giant tote bag full of junk because mom didn't want her upset. When mom tries to take it away, DCG kicks , punches and spits on mom and mom makes the usual excuses. She even told DCG that she (mom) should have respected DCGs feelings when she wanted to keep the bag because DCG's feeling will be hurt. Rhe final straw for us was when she called mom a B**** because she couldn't bring a box of pop tarts. After that, when we hear them come in the door in the morning, one of us meets them at the door to get DCG and send all that junk back. When DCG first started she warned us that wore DCG all the time and she co-sleeps. They did manage to get her on a schedule but it was extremely hard.

I'm not saying that AP is the cause of DCG's behavior, but this thread sheds a new light on it.
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KiddieCahoots View Post
This topic is getting some depth! And just have to say.....love the knowledge on this site, it blows me away!

Here's my two cents.....

I've raised my 5 children similar to ap style. And everyone of them had different needs, making my ap style different every time.

I feel what is getting confused in the ap style is the lack of parenting know how, or knowledge of early education and care, to determine what is appropriate to offer the baby/child for emotional support, and where to draw the line for setting limits as the dependable, structured guardian.

A lot of parents are following a black and white pattern of ap style without seeing the ques babies give, as we as educated providers do, and missing these ques, to fill in the blanks of raising their children to a set pattern. That is the wrong way and idea behind ap. And as long as it continues, we will never truly be able to see any benefits of ap with statics, it will be quite the contrary.

I agree as to parents trying to go by-the-book as to any style of parenting, and missing the child's cues as to what is really needed. Maybe it comes from lack of experience with infants and children, and what some of US think of as common sense. Our "common" sense is really based on the knowledge we developed at some point in our lives, often developed many years before we began formally working with children.
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Old 07-05-2014, 03:49 PM
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I used a loose form of AP and it worked well for us. I have a well adjusted, happy go lucky 6 year old boy. I didn't follow it by the book. Just used what worked for us and ignored the rest.
And that is what I suggest to my child care parents, regarding any parenting style that they are drawn to.
I know that I have my own style, but I draw from many different practices and theories. I use different techniques for different children, though I definitely have "my way" of doing things in general.
And I do not expect my families to all use the same methods. As long as their children are progressing developmentally, and are not stuck in social/emotional issues, I encourage them to find their own way as parents.
For me, that is where my confidence comes from -- from figuring out what needs to be done in various situations where what I normally do is not working.
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:06 PM
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And that is what I suggest to my child care parents, regarding any parenting style that they are drawn to.
I know that I have my own style, but I draw from many different practices and theories. I use different techniques for different children, though I definitely have "my way" of doing things in general.
And I do not expect my families to all use the same methods. As long as their children are progressing developmentally, and are not stuck in social/emotional issues, I encourage them to find their own way as parents.
For me, that is where my confidence comes from -- from figuring out what needs to be done in various situations where what I normally do is not working.
Exactly. Well said!
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:13 PM
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I would consided myself an AP parent, but as more time goes by the more I am cringing at labeling myself as such. I know AP extremists (no cry babies, toddlers, preschoolers, and school agers) who all have children who ACT spoiled, entitled, and wild. It horrifies me. Do I consider them superior? Well, they are intellectually more advanced from what I gather is an abundance of parent to child interaction (as there should be much of that!) but they are all socially stunted UNLESS their Mom is MORE involved with thrh idea of raising Christian children. Then, the focus is on producing God and parent fearing children (respectful) a bit more than AP babies. Am I making any sense there? It is a fine art combo that I love. So, that is where I fit in more now and I only have about three family friends who parent the same way we do.

The brain damage part is more about having high cortisol levels for extended periods of time. It produces more anxious people. I was raised with the CIO method and I am super anxious. I haven't met an AP kid that is a highly anxious individual. THAT is an observable difference despite all of the negatives. Children who can go out in this world and do. Now, are we guiding these children to DO good things or are we just letting them DO whatever they want believing that the world will also cater to all of their whims? There is another parenting difference...
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:35 PM
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I would consided myself an AP parent, but as more time goes by the more I am cringing at labeling myself as such. I know AP extremists (no cry babies, toddlers, preschoolers, and school agers) who all have children who ACT spoiled, entitled, and wild. It horrifies me. Do I consider them superior? Well, they are intellectually more advanced from what I gather is an abundance of parent to child interaction (as there should be much of that!) but they are all socially stunted UNLESS their Mom is MORE involved with thrh idea of raising Christian children. Then, the focus is on producing God and parent fearing children (respectful) a bit more than AP babies. Am I making any sense there? It is a fine art combo that I love. So, that is where I fit in more now and I only have about three family friends who parent the same way we do.

The brain damage part is more about having high cortisol levels for extended periods of time. It produces more anxious people. I was raised with the CIO method and I am super anxious. I haven't met an AP kid that is a highly anxious individual. THAT is an observable difference despite all of the negatives. Children who can go out in this world and do. Now, are we guiding these children to DO good things or are we just letting them DO whatever they want believing that the world will also cater to all of their whims? There is another parenting difference...
I think the cortisol research has been pretty desimated. Iirc the researchers who did the cortisol research that the Sears family uses went national with how they completely misused their findings. They were STRONGLY against the null hypothesis Dr Searseses used.

I've been wondering if AP has become popular with African American and Hispanic moms. I also wonder if child care providers would choose a AP family to work for over a family that did not sling carry, did not co sleep, did cio, did not sleep nipple attached, etc with all things being equal otherwise. (Money schedule age)

Maybe that's a good poll question.
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:45 PM
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There's a two year old in my center who comes in every morning with a giant tote bag full of junk because mom didn't want her upset. When mom tries to take it away, DCG kicks , punches and spits on mom and mom makes the usual excuses. She even told DCG that she (mom) should have respected DCGs feelings when she wanted to keep the bag because DCG's feeling will be hurt. Rhe final straw for us was when she called mom a B**** because she couldn't bring a box of pop tarts. After that, when we hear them come in the door in the morning, one of us meets them at the door to get DCG and send all that junk back. When DCG first started she warned us that wore DCG all the time and she co-sleeps. .
I grow weary of the "doing it wrong" attached to the kids that are violent and nasty. This mom is absolutely practicing AP from your description.

I hate all the words that get tossed around in this type of debate. If a family has a kid that they are strict with and they have them self soothe, go to bed on their own, cio, are down on the floor and not carried but net a calm, stable baby who sleeps well, eats well, and self entertains then the baby is depressed with learned helplessness while in shut down mode.

When an AP kid is violent, hateful, demanding, won't sleep, won't play independently and cries with every no then the parent must be doing it wrong.... meaning that isn't an AP kid.

Your kid IS an AP kid. The kids I told stories about above ARE AP kids. Their mothers claim it.
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Old 07-05-2014, 04:48 PM
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I think the cortisol research has been pretty desimated. Iirc the researchers who did the cortisol research that the Sears family uses went national with how they completely misused their findings. They were STRONGLY against the null hypothesis Dr Searseses used.

I've been wondering if AP has become popular with African American and Hispanic moms. I also wonder if child care providers would choose a AP family to work for over a family that did not sling carry, did not co sleep, did cio, did not sleep nipple attached, etc with all things being equal otherwise. (Money schedule age)

Maybe that's a good poll question.
I'm AA and i would say 10 yrs ago not as much. But now I'm seeing it. It seems the younger the parent (early to mid twenties) the more I notice. I had my DD when I was 21. I didn't know such a thing exsited. My mom told me that if I walk around carrying her all day/night, I'd never be able to put her down. I had friends who did that and they had to take their kid to the bathroom with them because they would scream bloody murder. They never had a minute to breathe.

We accept AP children. But because we have more staff to rotate taking care of baby, it's not as stressful for us. The parents have to get on board because we can't provide one on one care.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:37 PM
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I think the cortisol research has been pretty desimated. Iirc the researchers who did the cortisol research that the Sears family uses went national with how they completely misused their findings. They were STRONGLY against the null hypothesis Dr Searseses used.

I've been wondering if AP has become popular with African American and Hispanic moms. I also wonder if child care providers would choose a AP family to work for over a family that did not sling carry, did not co sleep, did cio, did not sleep nipple attached, etc with all things being equal otherwise. (Money schedule age)

Maybe that's a good poll question.
None of my in laws or their friends practice AP.

While I like many aspects of AP i actively choose families to work with who ARE NOT AP.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:39 PM
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I grow weary of the "doing it wrong" attached to the kids that are violent and nasty. This mom is absolutely practicing AP from your description.

I hate all the words that get tossed around in this type of debate. If a family has a kid that they are strict with and they have them self soothe, go to bed on their own, cio, are down on the floor and not carried but net a calm, stable baby who sleeps well, eats well, and self entertains then the baby is depressed with learned helplessness while in shut down mode.

When an AP kid is violent, hateful, demanding, won't sleep, won't play independently and cries with every no then the parent must be doing it wrong.... meaning that isn't an AP kid.

Your kid IS an AP kid. The kids I told stories about above ARE AP kids. Their mothers claim it.
I hear that the AP kids are independent...assertive. Positive words to describe poorly behaved kids.
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:41 PM
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I have lots of thoughts on this....

Regarding Nan's comments about the Hispanic community.....is AP parenting becoming more common? Possibly, especially with particular celebrities like Jessica Alba embracing all things AP/natural mom. However, A LOT of the things that define traditional AP are things that are extremely common in the Hispanic community regardless of AP influence, such as breastfeeding and extended breastfeeding, co sleeping and some forms of baby wearing. These are all things that moms of latin cultures do for various reasons anyway. For instance, many Hispanic families bed share out of necessity not any particular parenting technique. Hispanic moms, as a whole, definitely coddle their infants and toddlers and extended pacifier and bottle use are very common. The difference I think is that as a whole, Hispanic families are larger and they cannot continue the one to one care of small children past the arrival of the next child. It is very common for older siblings to care for younger ones at that point. Traditional gender roles have a strong influence as well so even though moms will often spoil sons, sons are quickly influenced by a culture that tells them "don't cry, don' act like a baby" so by preschool age, many boys are fighting for their "manhood status" while mom is busy with one or two or even three younger siblings. This also means that mom cannot hover due to being out numbered and it is common and excepted to allow children to run a bit wild. Of course, the youngest child of the family is definitely babied the longest which is common for many cultures. My point is AP looks very different when applied by different cultures.

Now as to my experience......like a lot of first time moms, when you make choices as a pregnant woman that include things like medication free or home birth, use of a doula or midwife, Bradley or hypno birthing labor techniques, cloth diapering, etc., it sends you down a path of information and resources that make a bee line for the AP community. This is the first reason that parents get into this world. They didnt intend to be here but their first few choices as expectant parents led them here. These websites, mommy bloggers, forums and even real life groups can be quite demanding. There are rules and expectations that go along with the use of the AP label. This is a tough crowd, trust me. Easily influenced newbie parents see this world as all knowing and they "drink the koolaid" so to speak. They aren't able to use critical thinking skills in order to find their way through all the research, opinions, books and "experts" and so they follow the majority within the AP world (which is very extreme when compared to the none AP world). Now, why are so many parents so easily influenced? Reason three, MANY new parents have zero experience with children and zero education on child development. They spend all their time planning the nursery and planning the birth and many don't go past that to think about and learn about how they are really going to be parents. Smaller and more isolated families mean that today's expectant parents don't have any real experience to rely on and all they know is that they don't want to parent the way their parents did. Reason four. The parents of yesterday relied on many techniques that are now taboo such as spanking and latch key kids. Other styles included a stay at home mom which is not a reality for the majority of today's families. Now parents are resorting to what they see as the best way to parent, and yes a lot of that is due to the hype and trend of AP parenting. The fifth reason that many parents resort to these techniques is that they ARE easier....for awhile. Giving the baby the breast every time they cry IS easier than putting baby on routine. Strapping them on your back IS easier than helping them progress past motion-addiction. Putting them in your bed IS easier than crib training. When you don't know what you are doing and you are exhausted, it is completely common to resort to whatever you have to in order to get some rest or peace. This is what makes parents do a huge variety of things....out of desperation. All of a sudden you realize you haven't slept in a year, your toddler doesnt want to be put done ever and you are nursing 10 hours of every 24 hour period. That is the point when a lot of parents make changes but not all do. Some just keep chugging along because that is what an AP mom is supposed to do and their friends will hate them if they purchase a crib! Daycare scenarios often don't change the parents right away either. They daycare hop for awhile, mom quits her job or they find someone to put up with a "demanding" baby. Some parents change at this point but again, some don't. Then baby number two might come along and parents have to adjust because you can't provide that level of care to two as well as you did one. Life gets in the way of this type of parenting, it can't be sustained. I have heard this last comment from a huge number of AP style parents

There are of course MANY hard core AP parents that just keep doing their thing and they find all the work worth it for whatever reason. Maybe they do really enjoy it. Maybe they enjoy the super-mom status. Maybe they want to quit but don't know how. Maybe they are scared to do anything but what they are familiar with. Maybe they are too arrogant to consider that these choices may not be the best fit for their family. A lot of these hard core parents will not use full time daycare or traditional school options because those institutes go against what AP is for. These parents find their way into things like Waldorf schooling and home schooling so no, it is not an issue at school age because their school options support their parenting style.

Now for my experience, I will say that I use many AP techniques but I do not consider my parenting style AP because I never chose to do these techniques past when they stopped working for my family. My kids were breastfed for as short as 5 months and as long as 18 months depending on what the child wanted and what I felt comfortable doing. We co slept for as short as 5 months and as long as a year. My oldest hated baby wearing and I never forced her. My third loved it. She's three and would happily get in a carrier. We also own several strollers and use them on occasion. We chose to selectively vaccinate (a huge debate in the AP world) and my son is circumsized (a huge no-no for AP moms). These were the choices that were right for us and we researched all the options about every single thing. I have read probably 100 parenting books. I am going to find what works for each of my kids individually rather than apply one set of standards to all my kids. We will stop doing something when it is clearly not working but I am also not afraid to go against the crowd and implement things that others dont. I will do whatever is right for my kids and if it happens to be an AP technique, so be it. There is a lot of positive about the approach. I do believe that many parents implement if inappropriately though. For instance, AP has principles stated as the seven Bs. One of the Bs is balance and so many parents fail to implement balance into how they apply parenting. There is a lot of parents that do "no cry" just because they cant handle crying but they arent really AP, even if they use the label.

Happy to continue the discussion, it is a good one!
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Old 07-05-2014, 07:57 PM
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The whole "NO cry" thing, isn't this going to create a world of little monsters? These children won't know how to deal with disappointment, frustration, hurt feelings, because they're never allowed to experience it. I understand wanting your baby to be happy and content. But this will never teach them to deal with life's hardships. They won't have a concept of fairness because they've never had to compromise. They won't know what to do with themselves on that first day of kinder because they think they should have their own adult who caters to every whim just so there's no crying. They won't know how to negotiate because everything has always just appeared before them on a silver ap platter. They won't know how to handle conflict because they've literally never witnessed such a thing. Please tell me if I'm way off base, but I can't imagine what these children will actually be like when they've never had a single worry or care in the world because ap mommy has always jumped to the rescue to prevent it.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:10 PM
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I'm AA and i would say 10 yrs ago not as much. But now I'm seeing it. It seems the younger the parent (early to mid twenties) the more I notice. I had my DD when I was 21. I didn't know such a thing exsited. My mom told me that if I walk around carrying her all day/night, I'd never be able to put her down. I had friends who did that and they had to take their kid to the bathroom with them because they would scream bloody murder. They never had a minute to breathe.

We accept AP children. But because we have more staff to rotate taking care of baby, it's not as stressful for us. The parents have to get on board because we can't provide one on one care.
My fcc program has several AP or what I consider high-maintenance kids right now....I think high-maintenance is becoming the norm?? while I can/do make it work it becomes frustrating at times because I feel so much time is spent telling kids "if you are going make faces like that, go look in the mirror", if you are going to cry-pout like that, go to the cozy cube". "screaming loudly hurts mine and the other children's ears".....YES, these things work with consistency, but some of these kids have massive amounts of tactics to TRY to get their way and it can take some time.....Parents would be in shock to know Johnny and Susie follow the rules till they walk in to pick them up for the day. I saw a grandma the other day and she honestly asked me how I got her grandson dcb4 to stop climbing on her furniture????? He doesn't climb on my furniture, but I really think she didn't believe me. I have had moms call at night to ask why I didn't put johnny's coat on when he went outside because he got cold only for me to reply we didn't go outside but who did the mom believe? Had a client call this past week to ask for an interview for a spot open right now and I set up a time only for her to say "well I can come but I can tell you right now I am not paying till I am ready to pay in August"....so the parent's are high-maintenance, too wanting things their way but she didn't even get the interview with me....I guess I could have introduced her to the cozy cube and let her figure out how she felt!
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:16 PM
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The whole "NO cry" thing, isn't this going to create a world of little monsters? These children won't know how to deal with disappointment, frustration, hurt feelings, because they're never allowed to experience it. I understand wanting your baby to be happy and content. But this will never teach them to deal with life's hardships. They won't have a concept of fairness because they've never had to compromise. They won't know what to do with themselves on that first day of kinder because they think they should have their own adult who caters to every whim just so there's no crying. They won't know how to negotiate because everything has always just appeared before them on a silver ap platter. They won't know how to handle conflict because they've literally never witnessed such a thing. Please tell me if I'm way off base, but I can't imagine what these children will actually be like when they've never had a single worry or care in the world because ap mommy has always jumped to the rescue to prevent it.
I think society will have a selfish group of kids that do not know how to deal with life issues.....actually serious issues like death/sickness/finances/ could really alter their life emotionally to the point they can't function unless someone literally tells them what to do! Don't get me wrong, I believe in support systems from family and friends, but a piece of the inner being has to function to survive!
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:17 PM
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I grow weary of the "doing it wrong" attached to the kids that are violent and nasty. This mom is absolutely practicing AP from your description.

I hate all the words that get tossed around in this type of debate. If a family has a kid that they are strict with and they have them self soothe, go to bed on their own, cio, are down on the floor and not carried but net a calm, stable baby who sleeps well, eats well, and self entertains then the baby is depressed with learned helplessness while in shut down mode.

When an AP kid is violent, hateful, demanding, won't sleep, won't play independently and cries with every no then the parent must be doing it wrong.... meaning that isn't an AP kid.

Your kid IS an AP kid. The kids I told stories about above ARE AP kids. Their mothers claim it.
Nanny, when I said doing it wrong, i meant in relation to whatever book they're reading. .
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:20 PM
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Nanny, when I said doing it wrong, i meant in relation to whatever book they're reading. .
Oh I see.
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:23 PM
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I think society will have a selfish group of kids that do not know how to deal with life issues.....actually serious issues like death/sickness/finances/ could really alter their life emotionally to the point they can't function unless someone literally tells them what to do! Don't get me wrong, I believe in support systems from family and friends, but a piece of the inner being has to function to survive!
What she said! ^^^^^^^
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Old 07-05-2014, 08:38 PM
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Cheer great post.

I watched a segment on the View with Dr Sears and he professed that the kids who were the kindest, most compassionate, never bullies, sunflowers pointed toward the sun were the kidsrraised in Attachment Parenting. It really got to me.

I just am stuck with the notion that this style has become so popular for so long that by now those of us who don't profit off of it should be able to spot these kids a mile away. The teacher, the church ladies, the child care providers, the lunch ladies etc... would know these kids as THE most well behaved, kind, gentle, smart, funny, others thinking kids.

I think it is human nature to ASK a parent who has an amazing kid "how did you do it?". Your kid is SUCH a nice kid... tell me how to do THAT.

These kids SHOULD be making an HUGE impression on society. They should stand out and rise above the kids who weren't offered this childhood. We, as child care providers, should be jumping for joy when a potential client tells us they are attachment parents. At parent teacher conferences the teachers should be asking the cream of the crop parents what they did to bring up such phenomenal sun flowers. School principals should be reporting to the school board that they aren't having to deal with behavioral issues from kids parented this way. Test scores should reflect the claimed increase in intelligence.

The parents are saying these kids are stellar children. The ones selling it are saying that. From where I sit, I don't see the folks RECEIVING these kids into society saying it. I wonder why?

By now..... the outcomes of these kids should be as well known as The Kardashians.

I don't think the average provider jumps for joy when the parent claims they are an attachment parent. I don't think coaches appreciate this style of parenting. I can't think of a single receiving group that would choose these kids over non attachment raised kids.
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:00 PM
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The whole "NO cry" thing, isn't this going to create a world of little monsters? These children won't know how to deal with disappointment, frustration, hurt feelings, because they're never allowed to experience it. I understand wanting your baby to be happy and content. But this will never teach them to deal with life's hardships. They won't have a concept of fairness because they've never had to compromise. They won't know what to do with themselves on that first day of kinder because they think they should have their own adult who caters to every whim just so there's no crying. They won't know how to negotiate because everything has always just appeared before them on a silver ap platter. They won't know how to handle conflict because they've literally never witnessed such a thing. Please tell me if I'm way off base, but I can't imagine what these children will actually be like when they've never had a single worry or care in the world because ap mommy has always jumped to the rescue to prevent it.
I think there is a difference between AP parenting of a baby and a toddler/young child. I did some aspects of AP for my son the first 12 months. One of those was the no-cry. And I never let him cry at night, even after that.

If a baby cries, it's for a reason. I don't believe babies are capable of manipulation. They want food, a new diaper, sleep. Once my DS reached a year, I felt he was really secure knowing he would always have his needs met, so I let him cry when I felt it was okay.

Co-sleeping was something we did on and off. Until he was 4, he would often sneak in our bed at night. It didn't bother us. We have a huge bed. At age 4, we kicked him out. Too uncomfortable as he was becoming a restless sleeper.
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:07 PM
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I don't think AP has to be synonymous with "no cry". I think that is what most AP parents have taken from this unfortunately and is giving AP parenting a bad name. New parents aren't doing ALL the research and only taking bits and pieces from the whole theory. I consider my parenting style to be AP , but it was my understanding that as an AP parent, I needed to gradually teach my children how to accept no and how to handle situations that made them upset. For the first month, yes, I responded to every single cry. After the first month, I started putting the baby down for a few minutes to do a chore or go to the bathroom and tell her that I would pick her up as soon as I was done. I would always pick the baby up soon after. Slowly, I lengthened the time it took me to do things so that baby could handle being out of my sight for 15 minutes or so. Both of my girls learned that they didn't need to cry because I would be there in a few minutes. I did cosleep at night, but taught them how to sleep in their cribs for naps since I knew they had to go to daycare eventually. Yes, they cried and I responded, but my response was to hush them and put them back to their crib. When researching AP, I didn't associate it with "no cry", but rather with responding when they DO cry right away. The response doesn't have to be to give them whatever they want, but rather to show them that you are there to meet their NEEDS and not necessarily their DESIRES. Both of my children went to a home daycare and did fine even though my provider was not into AP. And now that my girls are 1 and 3, I feel like AP looks much different than it did when they were infants.

Obviously, it will be hard to see positive results from this parenting style while so many parents interpret it and practice it differently.
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Old 07-05-2014, 09:12 PM
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Cheer great post.

I watched a segment on the View with Dr Sears and he professed that the kids who were the kindest, most compassionate, never bullies, sunflowers pointed toward the sun were the kidsrraised in Attachment Parenting. It really got to me.

I just am stuck with the notion that this style has become so popular for so long that by now those of us who don't profit off of it should be able to spot these kids a mile away. The teacher, the church ladies, the child care providers, the lunch ladies etc... would know these kids as THE most well behaved, kind, gentle, smart, funny, others thinking kids.

I think it is human nature to ASK a parent who has an amazing kid "how did you do it?". Your kid is SUCH a nice kid... tell me how to do THAT.

These kids SHOULD be making an HUGE impression on society. They should stand out and rise above the kids who weren't offered this childhood. We, as child care providers, should be jumping for joy when a potential client tells us they are attachment parents. At parent teacher conferences the teachers should be asking the cream of the crop parents what they did to bring up such phenomenal sun flowers. School principals should be reporting to the school board that they aren't having to deal with behavioral issues from kids parented this way. Test scores should reflect the claimed increase in intelligence.

The parents are saying these kids are stellar children. The ones selling it are saying that. From where I sit, I don't see the folks RECEIVING these kids into society saying it. I wonder why?

By now..... the outcomes of these kids should be as well known as The Kardashians.

I don't think the average provider jumps for joy when the parent claims they are an attachment parent. I don't think coaches appreciate this style of parenting. I can't think of a single receiving group that would choose these kids over non attachment raised kids.
My bossiest bully kids (baby boss childs) are all AP kids. Strict AP...not just somewhat AP. Same goes for all strict AP kids I know.
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Old 07-05-2014, 11:53 PM
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I don't think AP has to be synonymous with "no cry". I think that is what most AP parents have taken from this unfortunately and is giving AP parenting a bad name. New parents aren't doing ALL the research and only taking bits and pieces from the whole theory. I consider my parenting style to be AP , but it was my understanding that as an AP parent, I needed to gradually teach my children how to accept no and how to handle situations that made them upset. For the first month, yes, I responded to every single cry. After the first month, I started putting the baby down for a few minutes to do a chore or go to the bathroom and tell her that I would pick her up as soon as I was done. I would always pick the baby up soon after. Slowly, I lengthened the time it took me to do things so that baby could handle being out of my sight for 15 minutes or so. Both of my girls learned that they didn't need to cry because I would be there in a few minutes. I did cosleep at night, but taught them how to sleep in their cribs for naps since I knew they had to go to daycare eventually. Yes, they cried and I responded, but my response was to hush them and put them back to their crib. When researching AP, I didn't associate it with "no cry", but rather with responding when they DO cry right away. The response doesn't have to be to give them whatever they want, but rather to show them that you are there to meet their NEEDS and not necessarily their DESIRES. Both of my children went to a home daycare and did fine even though my provider was not into AP. And now that my girls are 1 and 3, I feel like AP looks much different than it did when they were infants.

Obviously, it will be hard to see positive results from this parenting style while so many parents interpret it and practice it differently.
I see what you mean here. You wanted them to know that they weren't abandoned, that you would indeed respond when they cried, even if it wasn't to give them exactly what they wanted. That's a good approach.
My post about no crying is referring more to the people who won't allow precious snowflake to make a single peep because they literally anticipate every need/want/desire. They aren't doing their children ANY favors. This behavior (the parent's) will be expected of other adults and these children will NOT get it. It's going to be a harsh wake up call for the child and the parent when this becomes apparent and it's too late to change it.
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Old 07-06-2014, 06:35 AM
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I see what you mean here. You wanted them to know that they weren't abandoned, that you would indeed respond when they cried, even if it wasn't to give them exactly what they wanted. That's a good approach.
My post about no crying is referring more to the people who won't allow precious snowflake to make a single peep because they literally anticipate every need/want/desire. They aren't doing their children ANY favors. This behavior (the parent's) will be expected of other adults and these children will NOT get it. It's going to be a harsh wake up call for the child and the parent when this becomes apparent and it's too late to change it.
Oh I totally agree with you! Babies cry. Period. Parents and babies have to learn how to cope with it. AP helped me and my babies with that. I was just trying to point out that some parents are associating "no cry" with AP and that is not necessarily the goal of it. I think parents are claiming they are "AP" without doing the research that goes along with it. I have a friend like this and she makes me shake my head on a weekly basis with her approaches. We are both AP parents but practice it completely differently. They think all AP means is not letting your child cry. Ever. And that is just not how it works. It unfortunately is creating a generation of kids like you describe. But AP isn't to blame, because there is a good way to practice it. It's lack of knowledge of child development, and just plain bad parenting (to put it bluntly).
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:48 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYcPeaph04&feature=kp

At the 2:25 mark Dr Sears describes these kids.

If this is the outcome, why aren't we seeing it?
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:56 AM
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One of the ways I deal with attachment parenting (or any other "labeled" type of parenting) is ask the parent to tell me EXACTLY what that (insert parenting type/style) means to them.

Then I take it from there.

I don't care what parents want to call it/label it, I ONLY care if I can integrate their child into my mixed group.

Personally, I think it's silly to call parenting anything but parenting.

Every child requires a unique set of rules/guidelines/approaches, whether they are the first born, middle, youngest or only.

My mother had 6 children and not one of them was parented the same.

Each child was simply provided with the things they needed.

I treat my DCK's the same way. Similar to what Nan said in one of her earlier posts. It doesn't matter if the child is neglected or micro-managed....the result in MY program is the same. ALL kids follow the same rules and abide by the same set of behavior guidelines that everyone else does.

HOW I teach, enforce and uphold those guidelines differs GREATLY from one child to another.

ALL children receive responsive, reciprocal and respectful care based on their individual needs.
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Old 07-06-2014, 08:12 AM
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One of the ways I deal with attachment parenting (or any other "labeled" type of parenting) is ask the parent to tell me EXACTLY what that (insert parenting type/style) means to them.

Then I take it from there.

I don't care what parents want to call it/label it, I ONLY care if I can integrate their child into my mixed group.

Personally, I think it's silly to call parenting anything but parenting.

Every child requires a unique set of rules/guidelines/approaches, whether they are the first born, middle, youngest or only.

My mother had 6 children and not one of them was parented the same.

Each child was simply provided with the things they needed.

I treat my DCK's the same way. Similar to what Nan said in one of her earlier posts. It doesn't matter if the child is neglected or micro-managed....the result in MY program is the same. ALL kids follow the same rules and abide by the same set of behavior guidelines that everyone else does.

HOW I teach, enforce and uphold those guidelines differs GREATLY from one child to another.

ALL children receive responsive, reciprocal and respectful care based on their individual needs.
Bingo, exactly!!

I have had (my own and daycare) kids who needed held, fed more often, more/less sleep, yes/no pacifier, mellow easygoing personalities, and difficult, struggling personalities. Things can be eased by good management of a child's particular issues, but they are unique individuals. It is not always the parent's fault that a child is hard. Sometimes they just are.
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Old 07-06-2014, 08:18 AM
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I find that I use different techniques for different children. Children are not one-size-fits-all, even if you "wear" them. Especially children from a variety of families.
Some flexibility and a large "bag of tricks" is what works for me.
Yes. I have no problem wearing a child if it helps them feel safe. We work toward good sleep habits because that is what will help them in the long run, but if it helps them now to wear them while we move that way, so be it.

I also do not believe a young infant (less than 6-8 months) can be "spoiled" by having their needs met. And sometimes that need might just be to be held and be close to an adult.
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Old 07-06-2014, 08:52 AM
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Don't take this the wrong way, Nan, because you DO have a wealth of knowledge and experience that is very valuable.

But in my years on this board I've noticed that you seem to, I don't know, hold a grudge against any of the gentler parenting approaches. Your "old school" style is just the bees knees and nothing else has any merit--that's the vibe I get.

But I'm a young mom (young in years, old in the way my brain works, haha) and I'm down here in the trenches of the modern parenting techniques. So let me tell you that you are only seeing the AP parents who are doing it wrong. You don't see or hear about the ones who are doing it right because THEY ARE NOT THE PROBLEMS. Also, many of them aren't going to be utilizing daycare.

At it's heart, AP is NOT intended to be about "no cry" or sacrificing mom's needs for the happiness of the child. BUT that's how a lot of people interpret it...due to either the "nazi-esque" mommy-bloggers and forums, a certain lack of reading comprehension that only takes in half the information being presented (a problem in many places I've observed, not just parenting related), or due to something else I don't know what.

AP done right does result in happy, well-adjusted kids who can sleep anywhere for anyone, integrate well into daycare or preschool or kindergarten, and have good emotional control and regulation.

But...too many people interpret the basic tenets of AP like the Ten Commandments of Christianity. They treat it like a religion and what does religion do? Even if you're miserable you have to do it, right? Well The nazi-followers of it treat it that way. Thou shalt bedshare (even if it doesn't work for your child). Thou shalt breastfeed (and if you ever put a bottle in that baby's mouth it will never nurse again). Thou shalt never put baby on the floor (or ELLLLSSSSEEE DOOOOOOM). I could go on but I won't.

Because at it's heart...AP is supposed to be responsive to the child. Child sleeps better in a crib? Then he should sleep there. She doesn't like being held? Put her down. You are supposed to pay ATTENTION to your child and learn to read their cues for things (sleep, hunger, desire for time to play on the floor, etc). But people get it wrong and it's largely the Internet's fault.

Through people mentioning it here, I found out about RIE. Are you familiar with it? At it's heart it's more what AP is supposed to be. Responsive, respectful relationship with your baby/toddler that leads to a well-adjusted, independent child capable of great emotional regulation. It stresses what AP does not--that if it doesn't work for mommy or the family it's okay not to do it. Which is awesome! I fell in love, adopted some of the practices and got involved with a few Facebook groups just as it started going practically "viral" and the groups exploded in size....

...and I was very disheartened to watch this responsive, respectful style grow to be some of what I hate about AP type groups and forums, adopting a "NO YOU CAN"T DO ANYTHING DIFFERENT JUST BECAUSE IT WORKS BETTER FOR YOUR CHILD!!!!" type approach. "YOU"RE DOING IT WRONG!" became an overwhelming message and I am now close to leaving those groups.

Anyway. I just want to say that it IS possible to use responsive and respectful methods in daycare. I do it every day. And I am willing to baby wear but haven't in three years because it makes my three year old very upset and jealous. I don't let babies cry uncontrolled for too long (no full on CIO here.) but I do have AWESOME sleepers.

I am sharing this to let you know that i respect you and your views and you have great information to share, but it's not your way or the highway--other things work too. Daycare needs to be approached the way parenting is: what works for the provider, and what works for the children THEY have in care. I could never provide care in the style you do, it wouldn't work for me. And you couldn't do it the way I do. And we're both okay because it works for us.

I don't think that AP/responsive/gentle approaches are what's causing the decline in children's behavior; I think it's bigger than that. Because for every parent striving to be gentle....I spent fifteen minutes trying to invent some statistics for how many are too rough, don't care, etc and couldn't...but it's way more than are trying to be gentle. Sure, AP-Gone-Wrong is a problem, not the basic tenets of "listen to your baby and respect his needs". The internet is more of a problem, with it's endless sources of quick entertainment for moms AND kids, it's scores of "perfect" mommy bloggers. The education system is more of a problem, with it's kids who have terrible reading comprehension and can't process more than 1 word in 3 on the page. The food is a problem, contributing to depression and behavior problems for children AND adults. The healthcare system is a problem, that it can't catch the problems AND TREAT THEM early and affordably enough. Society is the problem and the horrifying disintigration of the "village" it has always taken to raise a child. Fear is a problem, where parents are convinced that they can't take their eyes off their babies for even an instant lest they be snatched by a pedophile in sheep's clothing.

It goes far, far beyond the set of parents who get one parenting style wrong.
I was going to post but Silver said it all. AP has a bad rap because people use it incorrectly. I like RIE and the idea that others think of it "those people that let their baby's cry" or other AP approaches thatvare thought of as "those people that don't let their baby's cry" is saddening. Both are just common sense parenting. IDK know about AP parenting but I'm familiar with RIE and over and over the handbook says to observe the baby's cues and wait, to do what is best for the parent and child ... not to do what is easier and definitely not to prevent the child from crying. It's work, getting to know your child enough to know whether they are crying because they're hurt or hungry or simply because they need to cry and then reacting appropriately.
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Old 07-06-2014, 09:31 AM
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Yes. I have no problem wearing a child if it helps them feel safe. We work toward good sleep habits because that is what will help them in the long run, but if it helps them now to wear them while we move that way, so be it.

I also do not believe a young infant (less than 6-8 months) can be "spoiled" by having their needs met. And sometimes that need might just be to be held and be close to an adult.
I don't start threads very often. I think I've started maybe thirty or so in the four years I've posted here. I know that threads can turn into debate or end in discussions that are off shoots of the original op.

I didn't intend an ap debate. I have read and had a zillion of those. I'm really more interested in outcomes. To me, I don't have a problem with any style of parenting except abuse and neglect. I can care for pretty much any kid that comes to me as an infant. They all eventually get on the same feed, sleep, exercise, play cycle. I put them to bed wide awake and a few minutes later they are all out for a deep long sleep.

I think babies are way more alike than they are different. I think it's 95 percent the same barring health issues. They may have different ways of offering up cues but the end game is the same. I don't spend too much energy on approaching them differently. I do get that newbie parents have to learn cues and figure out what to do next. I don't have to learn the baby like they do. I have seen that baby many times before in some other baby or babies. That sends me on a trajectory of care that meets at the same community center.

I don't take the scenic route to the community center. I prefer the direct route. Too much sight seeing is going to delay my arrival to the meeting place and leave the others unattended.

To me, attachment parenting takes the long hard road. It is something to DO along the way and I get that parents are searching for a road map for the journey. I worry about the place they end up being very different than where they intended to go and I worry that in a blink some of the best parts of parenting are not going to be remembered as all that great.

When I look back at my sons infancy I don't remember being tired after he was six weeks old. I don't have a single memory of him hitting me because he didn't. I don't remember tantrums or not being able to go places because he acted like a creep in public. I remember his babyness with very fond memories. He was an easy baby because I didn't allow otherwise.

I am deeply saddened that when ap goes wrong that the answer is that it wasn't done right. I also am unhappy about the concept that the kids behavior is normal. I would rather see the AP community nut up and start addressing the sleep issues and the physical acting out of these kids instead of deeming the issues as normal or a stage.

If you want to know the issues that result from a parenting method ask child care providers and teachers. Ask the receiving adults.

If you want to know what nets great kids ask them that too. This thread begs the question plaguing me as to why these kids, like cream, don't rise to the top and become known as the healthiest, kindest, smartest, most stable and balanced kids to anyone but the parents and the sellers. That bugs me.
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Old 07-06-2014, 09:43 AM
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I get AP for infants. Based on what I've read from PPs, I did some of the same things. But when a child gets older-3 and above- how much is AP as opposed to not wanting the child to tantrum because parents don't know how to deal with it. It's easier to give in than to set rules/boundaries. I think as the child gets older, the parent wants the child to like them which causes the parent to do any/everything to make their child happy.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:02 AM
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If you want to know what nets great kids ask them that too. This thread begs the question plaguing me as to why these kids, like cream, don't rise to the top and become known as the healthiest, kindest, smartest, most stable and balanced kids to anyone but the parents and the sellers. That bugs me.
I really didn't want to post this, because it sounds snotty and horrible, but you keep asking the question, so I will respond. Please forgive how it sounds, because I am not a snotty person. Just stating for your research.

I did AP for my son, now 6. I did not join any forums or communities. As I stated, I took what worked for us and ditched the rest, but I followed it relatively closey, while also following my mother's intuition.

I have the child you are talking about. People stop me all the time - I'm not kidding - to tell me how sweet, kind, well-adjusted, and smart he is. He is a favorite of every teacher he has had, and they all keep in touch with him. His teacher from 2 years ago actually makes "play dates" with him. Yes, I go too. They play at the park for an hour once every three or four months. Nothing weird, I promise. They are just close. His previous daycare providers all keep in touch. Not with me, with him. The secretary and principal of the school love him. Everyone in church loves him. People I don't even know come up to me to give him Easter and Christmas presents because they say he is such a wonderful boy. Caring, giving, sweet.

I actually got into daycare earlier this year because last year a family member paid me a huge compliment. She said, "I would like to know if you would watch my infant daughter for me. From watching your son, I want my daughter to have the upbringing he did, and if I can't be there, then I want you to watch her for me."

So ... Is this the effects of AP? I believe some of it is. My son is very secure because be knew from a very early age that his needs would be met. No need to worry. Does that mean he never has a stress in his life? Nope. We have plenty, and we handle them. In his short life, he has moved 4 times, twice cross country leaving family and friends. It wasn't easy - but he felt safe, even in the midst of loss and confusion.

AP is not a true form of parenting. It is a way to react, most of the time, proactively, to a child. AP must be done also with good parenting, IMO. They are two different things.

I am in no way stating I am the ultimate parent. But something worked well and I did AP, so I don't think it's fair to say that AP kids are spoiled, rotten, and can't adjust.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:22 AM
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I have lots of thoughts on this....

Regarding Nan's comments about the Hispanic community.....is AP parenting becoming more common? Possibly, especially with particular celebrities like Jessica Alba embracing all things AP/natural mom. However, A LOT of the things that define traditional AP are things that are extremely common in the Hispanic community regardless of AP influence, such as breastfeeding and extended breastfeeding, co sleeping and some forms of baby wearing. These are all things that moms of latin cultures do for various reasons anyway. For instance, many Hispanic families bed share out of necessity not any particular parenting technique. Hispanic moms, as a whole, definitely coddle their infants and toddlers and extended pacifier and bottle use are very common. The difference I think is that as a whole, Hispanic families are larger and they cannot continue the one to one care of small children past the arrival of the next child. It is very common for older siblings to care for younger ones at that point. Traditional gender roles have a strong influence as well so even though moms will often spoil sons, sons are quickly influenced by a culture that tells them "don't cry, don' act like a baby" so by preschool age, many boys are fighting for their "manhood status" while mom is busy with one or two or even three younger siblings. This also means that mom cannot hover due to being out numbered and it is common and excepted to allow children to run a bit wild. Of course, the youngest child of the family is definitely babied the longest which is common for many cultures. My point is AP looks very different when applied by different cultures.
*cringe* as a Hispanic mother (half anyway) those are some pretty broad generalizations/stereotypes.

I am an AP mother. I used slings for awake times when I couldn't hold my child and he/she couldn't be in good supervision. I had my kids in the same room as me until they were older, because I was nervous/lazy/breastfeeding and *I* slept better, but each of my four children had/have their own rooms and their own beds. My child/ren never parented each other, although older girls generally 'help' as helping with family is expected in our family. As far as 'being men' and earning man status, in my family and in the Hispanic families I grew up in, that is about being respectful, responsible, polite and hard working. It is NOT 'don't be a baby, don't cry' AT ALL. Girls are raised to be WOMEN in much the same way. I have VERY VERY rarely heard a child in my family be disrespectful, when they ARE, several family members WILL speak up.

I've never used a pacifier.
My babies went to sippy cups early.
They weren't coddled.

As far as running wild, it's pretty family dependent on what general rules apply. I can't say I feel that MOST Hispanic children are allowed to run WILD. Most Hispanic families ARE large so it's loud and rowdy and they ALL encourage physical activity. My boys are allowed to wrestle with dh's approval and supervision, for example. My cousins children are allowed to wrestle the same way. My nieces aren't allowed to touch each other at all. The kids in MY family are much more respectful compared to the same age kids in Dh's Italian family(dh is half german, half Italian), even though the two families share in the same religious and moral beliefs.

I also have a large extended Hispanic family-- most don't even have a parenting style that they could name, it's doing what they feel is right and what works for them.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:22 AM
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I really didn't want to post this, because it sounds snotty and horrible, but you keep asking the question, so I will respond. Please forgive how it sounds, because I am not a snotty person. Just stating for your research.

I did AP for my son, now 6. I did not join any forums or communities. As I stated, I took what worked for us and ditched the rest, but I followed it relatively closey, while also following my mother's intuition.

I have the child you are talking about. People stop me all the time - I'm not kidding - to tell me how sweet, kind, well-adjusted, and smart he is. He is a favorite of every teacher he has had, and they all keep in touch with him. His teacher from 2 years ago actually makes "play dates" with him. Yes, I go too. They play at the park for an hour once every three or four months. Nothing weird, I promise. They are just close. His previous daycare providers all keep in touch. Not with me, with him. The secretary and principal of the school love him. Everyone in church loves him. People I don't even know come up to me to give him Easter and Christmas presents because they say he is such a wonderful boy. Caring, giving, sweet.

I actually got into daycare earlier this year because last year a family member paid me a huge compliment. She said, "I would like to know if you would watch my infant daughter for me. From watching your son, I want my daughter to have the upbringing he did, and if I can't be there, then I want you to watch her for me."

So ... Is this the effects of AP? I believe some of it is. My son is very secure because be knew from a very early age that his needs would be met. No need to worry. Does that mean he never has a stress in his life? Nope. We have plenty, and we handle them. In his short life, he has moved 4 times, twice cross country leaving family and friends. It wasn't easy - but he felt safe, even in the midst of loss and confusion.

AP is not a true form of parenting. It is a way to react, most of the time, proactively, to a child. AP must be done also with good parenting, IMO. They are two different things.

I am in no way stating I am the ultimate parent. But something worked well and I did AP, so I don't think it's fair to say that AP kids are spoiled, rotten, and can't adjust.
That came off great. No offense taken.

I would love to hear the receiving community tell these stories. I would love to hear that these teachers and church ladies see a TON of kids with your sons outcome. It's become so popular and done by so many for long enough that these kids like yours should be known as a majority and a group. I'm looking for that.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:33 AM
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As far as my personal AP experience, for me it was more of a natural/loving/responsive parenting. Each child was parented different. They all went to sleep awake, I had them room in with us until they were past the SIDS risk and/or waking at night to nurse, weren't rocked to sleep/nursed to sleep. Were on a flexible schedule. They adjusted well to daycare/group care (first 3 anyway, home with #4, did daycare with him and he was fine). I encouraged independence. I DID focus on their emotional needs, fed on demand to a year, cloth diapered, made my own baby food, and wore them in slings. I would wear them when I was up/busy and couldn't adequately supervise them. It was my stroller substitute, essentially. They had tummy time and played on the floor, too.

I think AP has a bad rap thanks to extremists who use it as an EXCUSE for what is essentially NO CRY, coddling, no discipline, no self soothe, or self help skills NON parenting technique.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:39 AM
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Also- my kids behavior, self help skills and academics have been praised by every other adult that has them. Teachers, babysitters, coaches and camp counselors. In general, they are respectful, responsible, polite and honest====well beyond their same age peers. Even ds with ASD/moderate functioning says 'yes please, no thank you, yes sir/ma'am, bless you, excuse me, and THANK YOU.' His teachers eat that up. If you want to see excuses for behavior, look to the special needs community. (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this one, YES there are some things these children truly can't control, I mean for the rest of the behaviors that are excused because the parent doesn't know how to/doesn't effectively discipline a special needs child). Temple Grandin has even spoken about the subject.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:47 AM
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We did an AP style with 2 of our kids. We weren't strict AP. We co slept, bf'ing past one yr old, and used a sling. The kids cried like all kids do. We even did sleep training after a year. I did not have my kids in daycare other than my own. I do think AP parents need to either be at home, or find a daycare that practices it.

My kids are all out going and fun to be around. At least I think they are

I know many parents who are on the other end of the spectrum. I find many of their kids to be too quiet and mousey. Those kids are the ones that drive me nuts. Give me some energy and spirit!

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Old 07-06-2014, 10:48 AM
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That came off great. No offense taken.

I would love to hear the receiving community tell these stories. I would love to hear that these teachers and church ladies see a TON of kids with your sons outcome. It's become so popular and done by so many for long enough that these kids like yours should be known as a majority and a group. I'm looking for that.
I think it has a lot to do with their personality too
my youngest daughter is exactly like the child just described and I didn't do ap
never even heard of it until I got on this forum ( I breast fed and would probably be considered a helicopter parent) but that's because I have extreme anxiety

her teachers and all adults in her life love her and 3 of my other kids were the same way
two of my other kids... not so much but they were the ones with the highest IQ ..actually one is in the 160 range when tested in Jr high
they are born with a strong will or compliant spirit and we can try to shape it, guide it ( control it) whatever but I truly believe that they are born with it
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:49 AM
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That came off great. No offense taken.

I would love to hear the receiving community tell these stories. I would love to hear that these teachers and church ladies see a TON of kids with your sons outcome. It's become so popular and done by so many for long enough that these kids like yours should be known as a majority and a group. I'm looking for that.
Nannyde, I think the larger issue at work here - and I will go screaming about this to my grave - is the use of electronics in the home. Too many, too often. How many times do I see parents with their children, who are on their phones and ignoring their kids so they can update FB or play a game? How many times do I see kids at restaurants given an iPad so they will essentially zone out and "shut up?"

I have an iPhone, and sure, I use it. When my DS isn't around. Family time is family time. I pull out my phone when DS is with DH or in bed. I have an iPad. I use it primarily for work. But I have downloaded educational games for DS. We do those together. Video games are a once a month treat. We have the first Wii system and it was given to us. I have no plans to ever upgrade.

Raising a child is constant work, and it's so easy today for parents to let them play games so parents can have a break after work. But then the child(ren) don't get the much needed interaction with parents and family, as well as the attention they crave.

Parents can use cloth diapers, natural, organic food, and whatever else they want to sound impressive, but it's all shoved down the toilet when kids are given too much time with electronics.

Whew! Rant over.
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Old 07-06-2014, 11:07 AM
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I think it has a lot to do with their personality too
my youngest daughter is exactly like the child just described and I didn't do ap
never even heard of it until I got on this forum ( I breast fed and would probably be considered a helicopter parent) but that's because I have extreme anxiety

her teachers and all adults in her life love her and 3 of my other kids were the same way
two of my other kids... not so much but they were the ones with the highest IQ ..actually one is in the 160 range when tested in Jr high
they are born with a strong will or compliant spirit and we can try to shape it, guide it ( control it) whatever but I truly believe that they are born with it
Interesting, and I would like to note that I have extreme anxiety, too. It does make me a bit of a helicopter parent, but I like to think only in the good ways

It would be interesting to see what type of link, if any, is between high anxiety mothers or fathers and the outcome of their children.

And yes, kids are definitely born with their own little personalities!
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Old 07-06-2014, 11:21 AM
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I don't start threads very often. I think I've started maybe thirty or so in the four years I've posted here. I know that threads can turn into debate or end in discussions that are off shoots of the original op.

I didn't intend an ap debate. I have read and had a zillion of those. I'm really more interested in outcomes. To me, I don't have a problem with any style of parenting except abuse and neglect. I can care for pretty much any kid that comes to me as an infant. They all eventually get on the same feed, sleep, exercise, play cycle. I put them to bed wide awake and a few minutes later they are all out for a deep long sleep.

I think babies are way more alike than they are different. I think it's 95 percent the same barring health issues. They may have different ways of offering up cues but the end game is the same. I don't spend too much energy on approaching them differently. I do get that newbie parents have to learn cues and figure out what to do next. I don't have to learn the baby like they do. I have seen that baby many times before in some other baby or babies. That sends me on a trajectory of care that meets at the same community center.

I don't take the scenic route to the community center. I prefer the direct route. Too much sight seeing is going to delay my arrival to the meeting place and leave the others unattended.

To me, attachment parenting takes the long hard road. It is something to DO along the way and I get that parents are searching for a road map for the journey. I worry about the place they end up being very different than where they intended to go and I worry that in a blink some of the best parts of parenting are not going to be remembered as all that great.

When I look back at my sons infancy I don't remember being tired after he was six weeks old. I don't have a single memory of him hitting me because he didn't. I don't remember tantrums or not being able to go places because he acted like a creep in public. I remember his babyness with very fond memories. He was an easy baby because I didn't allow otherwise.

I am deeply saddened that when ap goes wrong that the answer is that it wasn't done right. I also am unhappy about the concept that the kids behavior is normal. I would rather see the AP community nut up and start addressing the sleep issues and the physical acting out of these kids instead of deeming the issues as normal or a stage.

If you want to know the issues that result from a parenting method ask child care providers and teachers. Ask the receiving adults.

If you want to know what nets great kids ask them that too. This thread begs the question plaguing me as to why these kids, like cream, don't rise to the top and become known as the healthiest, kindest, smartest, most stable and balanced kids to anyone but the parents and the sellers. That bugs me.
I understand what you are trying to get at. But I think that you aren't going to see those results if parents *think* they're doing AP and tell you they're doing AP when really they haven't a clue. They call it that, but haven't done the research or don't practice it correctly. You keep saying that you don't like the excuse that they are just doing it "wrong" but there is a right and wrong way, which is probably why you don't always see a bunch of awesome kids who were supposedly AP. Just because a parent says and thinks they're doing AP doesn't mean they're doing it. They are calling it that, but coddling and giving into every whim instead. THAT is not AP. So I guess what I'm getting at, is maybe you aren't seeing a bunch of teachers and daycare providers singing the praises of AP kids because many of those kids have not been brought up by actual AP practices. The parents you are describing are not AP parents, they are parents who don't really have a good grasp of child development or good parenting practices. Unfortunately, this is the norm these days because both parents work and don't choose to devote the little time they do have to figuring out how to parent their children.

Like I posted earlier, I did AP, and I was not constantly tired. I didn't give in to their every cry. That is not what AP is about. My children were not spoiled or coddled. They feel safe around me and others because I gave them the confidence that IF they needed me, I was there.
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Old 07-06-2014, 12:51 PM
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The whole "NO cry" thing, isn't this going to create a world of little monsters? These children won't know how to deal with disappointment, frustration, hurt feelings, because they're never allowed to experience it. I understand wanting your baby to be happy and content. But this will never teach them to deal with life's hardships. They won't have a concept of fairness because they've never had to compromise. They won't know what to do with themselves on that first day of kinder because they think they should have their own adult who caters to every whim just so there's no crying. They won't know how to negotiate because everything has always just appeared before them on a silver ap platter. They won't know how to handle conflict because they've literally never witnessed such a thing. Please tell me if I'm way off base, but I can't imagine what these children will actually be like when they've never had a single worry or care in the world because ap mommy has always jumped to the rescue to prevent it.
I think a real big part of this is that parents want to accommodate (if that is the right word) an infant's needs and fear the research on crying that says crying damages babies. However, what they miss, is that to my knowledge, there is no research about crying with toddlers and preschoolers. Sure we all know, don't dump your toddler in room alone and hungry and neglected.....thats not cry it out, thats just abuse. But what parents dont get is good research and definitions on what is okay once a child progresses past one year old and what is not okay. They don't know where to draw the line and their parenting techniques don't progress as their child ages.
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Old 07-06-2014, 12:51 PM
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I understand what you are trying to get at. But I think that you aren't going to see those results if parents *think* they're doing AP and tell you they're doing AP when really they haven't a clue. They call it that, but haven't done the research or don't practice it correctly. You keep saying that you don't like the excuse that they are just doing it "wrong" but there is a right and wrong way, which is probably why you don't always see a bunch of awesome kids who were supposedly AP. Just because a parent says and thinks they're doing AP doesn't mean they're doing it. They are calling it that, but coddling and giving into every whim instead. THAT is not AP. So I guess what I'm getting at, is maybe you aren't seeing a bunch of teachers and daycare providers singing the praises of AP kids because many of those kids have not been brought up by actual AP practices. The parents you are describing are not AP parents, they are parents who don't really have a good grasp of child development or good parenting practices. Unfortunately, this is the norm these days because both parents work and don't choose to devote the little time they do have to figuring out how to parent their children.

Like I posted earlier, I did AP, and I was not constantly tired. I didn't give in to their every cry. That is not what AP is about. My children were not spoiled or coddled. They feel safe around me and others because I gave them the confidence that IF they needed me, I was there.
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Old 07-06-2014, 12:54 PM
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My fcc program has several AP or what I consider high-maintenance kids right now....I think high-maintenance is becoming the norm?? while I can/do make it work it becomes frustrating at times because I feel so much time is spent telling kids "if you are going make faces like that, go look in the mirror", if you are going to cry-pout like that, go to the cozy cube". "screaming loudly hurts mine and the other children's ears".....YES, these things work with consistency, but some of these kids have massive amounts of tactics to TRY to get their way and it can take some time.....Parents would be in shock to know Johnny and Susie follow the rules till they walk in to pick them up for the day. I saw a grandma the other day and she honestly asked me how I got her grandson dcb4 to stop climbing on her furniture????? He doesn't climb on my furniture, but I really think she didn't believe me. I have had moms call at night to ask why I didn't put johnny's coat on when he went outside because he got cold only for me to reply we didn't go outside but who did the mom believe? Had a client call this past week to ask for an interview for a spot open right now and I set up a time only for her to say "well I can come but I can tell you right now I am not paying till I am ready to pay in August"....so the parent's are high-maintenance, too wanting things their way but she didn't even get the interview with me....I guess I could have introduced her to the cozy cube and let her figure out how she felt!
yes but let's not bring in general selfishness and decay of society into the definition of AP parenting and confuse things. There are parents of all types that want special treatment, don't pay bills, etc.......I dont see your comment as staying on topic although i certainly agree that most, if not all of us, are seeing this rise in selfish parents, which of course generally results in selfish kids.
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Old 07-06-2014, 01:09 PM
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Cheer great post.

I watched a segment on the View with Dr Sears and he professed that the kids who were the kindest, most compassionate, never bullies, sunflowers pointed toward the sun were the kidsrraised in Attachment Parenting. It really got to me.

I just am stuck with the notion that this style has become so popular for so long that by now those of us who don't profit off of it should be able to spot these kids a mile away. The teacher, the church ladies, the child care providers, the lunch ladies etc... would know these kids as THE most well behaved, kind, gentle, smart, funny, others thinking kids.

I think it is human nature to ASK a parent who has an amazing kid "how did you do it?". Your kid is SUCH a nice kid... tell me how to do THAT.

These kids SHOULD be making an HUGE impression on society. They should stand out and rise above the kids who weren't offered this childhood. We, as child care providers, should be jumping for joy when a potential client tells us they are attachment parents. At parent teacher conferences the teachers should be asking the cream of the crop parents what they did to bring up such phenomenal sun flowers. School principals should be reporting to the school board that they aren't having to deal with behavioral issues from kids parented this way. Test scores should reflect the claimed increase in intelligence.

The parents are saying these kids are stellar children. The ones selling it are saying that. From where I sit, I don't see the folks RECEIVING these kids into society saying it. I wonder why?

By now..... the outcomes of these kids should be as well known as The Kardashians.

I don't think the average provider jumps for joy when the parent claims they are an attachment parent. I don't think coaches appreciate this style of parenting. I can't think of a single receiving group that would choose these kids over non attachment raised kids.
I completely understand the point of your post. The issues raised with AP kids in daycare settings are unique within the AP world. A big part of the issue is that AP parenting and daycare is generally worlds a part and a lot of parents don't see or understand that until it is too late. AP is all about that bond with the primary caregiver, usually mom. They propose the idea that a secure bond will provide a good foundation for the rest of the child's life, which in general is supported by research. I think we can all agree with a child that is bonded to nurturing, loving parents, has a great foundation in life. The debate comes about when we discuss what techniques promote that bond. AP is all about physical attachment with infants and toddlers. Parents are present and available at all times. Like Nan said, it is labor intensive! and definitely does not mesh well with group care. and that is the problem. How do AP parents mesh with a world that is not conducive to the parenting style that their children are used to? A child is of course going to be horribly confused and upset when on the first day of daycare, no one comes when they cry, no one picks them up, no one holds them or lays down with them for nap.....that sort of thing. So what we providers are seeing is the downside to AP parenting because we get the work of trying to transition these kids into care while mom is still nursing all the time and co sleeping at home. It really is not far for the child or the provider and at this point, the parent is probably reaping more "benefits" than the child because they are not having to deal with the fallout of placing an AP baby in a group care setting. In addition, there is a huge money machine behind the promotion of this parenting style by way of books, classes, carriers, breastfeeding supplies, special baby beds that attached to an adult's bed, etc, etc. Parents need to use their critical thinking skills and decipher between marketing and true facts. The Sears machine is a money making machine. Of course it is going to promise the world to parents, because parents buy into it, buy books and join groups and host classes.
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Old 07-06-2014, 01:12 PM
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I think a real big part of this is that parents want to accommodate (if that is the right word) an infant's needs and fear the research on crying that says crying damages babies. However, what they miss, is that to my knowledge, there is no research about crying with toddlers and preschoolers. Sure we all know, don't dump your toddler in room alone and hungry and neglected.....thats not cry it out, thats just abuse. But what parents dont get is good research and definitions on what is okay once a child progresses past one year old and what is not okay. They don't know where to draw the line and their parenting techniques don't progress as their child ages.
There isn't any research to show crying damages babies either.

I think one of the unintended consequences is that because the parent doesn't get experience with managing crying with their infant (except to get it before it happens and stop it right away when it does) that by the time the kid turns one the ONLY thing the parent has a skill set in is in stopping it.

The parent hasn't managed their own tolerance. They don't build their own escape hatch. They aren't desensitized to the natural stress of the noise or frustration. They can't have confidence when the kid cries for unreasonable or unsafe demands.

Somehow that natural instinct to be pi$$ed when you are head butted by your toddler gets quelled. The thunder doesn't come to the surface when they kick you in the belly a week after you had their baby brother by cesarean because you can't pick them up. The ding dong that you are doing it wrong when you fell asleep in your two year olds bed while they played till the wee hours of the morning and passed out by the door and the only way you can get out of the room without waking your kid up is to climb out the window.

Those real parental skills don't come to the surface because your care remains at the level of the fragile newborn care.
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Old 07-06-2014, 01:22 PM
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I don't think AP has to be synonymous with "no cry". I think that is what most AP parents have taken from this unfortunately and is giving AP parenting a bad name. New parents aren't doing ALL the research and only taking bits and pieces from the whole theory. I consider my parenting style to be AP , but it was my understanding that as an AP parent, I needed to gradually teach my children how to accept no and how to handle situations that made them upset. For the first month, yes, I responded to every single cry. After the first month, I started putting the baby down for a few minutes to do a chore or go to the bathroom and tell her that I would pick her up as soon as I was done. I would always pick the baby up soon after. Slowly, I lengthened the time it took me to do things so that baby could handle being out of my sight for 15 minutes or so. Both of my girls learned that they didn't need to cry because I would be there in a few minutes. I did cosleep at night, but taught them how to sleep in their cribs for naps since I knew they had to go to daycare eventually. Yes, they cried and I responded, but my response was to hush them and put them back to their crib. When researching AP, I didn't associate it with "no cry", but rather with responding when they DO cry right away. The response doesn't have to be to give them whatever they want, but rather to show them that you are there to meet their NEEDS and not necessarily their DESIRES. Both of my children went to a home daycare and did fine even though my provider was not into AP. And now that my girls are 1 and 3, I feel like AP looks much different than it did when they were infants.

Obviously, it will be hard to see positive results from this parenting style while so many parents interpret it and practice it differently.
It sounds like you really took the best from the theory and applied that in age appropriate ways. I do not consider myself AP but I use many of the techniques. I think the approach can bring a lot of positive things into parenting when todays parents are so busy and distracted from their kids. but the key is to know when to progress past infant care and so many parents dont do that. I know a number of really great AP kids. Are they the smartest and the best kids out there? probably not, but they are great kids from great families and it is sad that so many providers only have bad experiences with AP parenting.
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Old 07-06-2014, 01:26 PM
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I was going to post but Silver said it all. AP has a bad rap because people use it incorrectly. I like RIE and the idea that others think of it "those people that let their baby's cry" or other AP approaches thatvare thought of as "those people that don't let their baby's cry" is saddening. Both are just common sense parenting. IDK know about AP parenting but I'm familiar with RIE and over and over the handbook says to observe the baby's cues and wait, to do what is best for the parent and child ... not to do what is easier and definitely not to prevent the child from crying. It's work, getting to know your child enough to know whether they are crying because they're hurt or hungry or simply because they need to cry and then reacting appropriately.
I think RIE is another approach that has a lot of great techniques, specifically the promotion of no baby equipment and no propping babies. There is a lot to be gained from the approach. My only issue with RIE is that I find some parents become too un-involved in their attempt to foster independence. I will always step in for issues of safety and my definition of safe is probably more conservative than a lot of RIE moms. anyway, thats a whole different topic.
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:45 PM
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When I look back at my sons infancy I don't remember being tired after he was six weeks old. I don't have a single memory of him hitting me because he didn't. I don't remember tantrums or not being able to go places because he acted like a creep in public. I remember his babyness with very fond memories. He was an easy baby because I didn't allow otherwise.
I understand your purpose in starting this thread, and I will be honest, I don't know a lot about what AP is supposed to be. I also want to say, I respect your abilities as a provider, and I believe you do exactly what you claim to do re: getting them all to one place.
However, (and please forgive my lack of tact here) you have one child. You are in no position to judge that you got an "easy" baby because YOU did anything. If I had only one child, I would easily be able to say the same thing. My oldest (number three in the lineup, but the first I gave birth to) was a breeze. Never cried unless there was a real issue. Slept through the night at 3 months. Never had a tantrum. Took him EVERYWHERE. He was an easy kid, and is still a dream kid @26. Mother's dream.

Then the next one came along. Cried from the time he was six weeks old until he was, well.. to be honest, about 5. Not really, but he was HARD. He did NOT want to be carried or even touched. Would scream for hours at a time (four to six often.) Could be set off on a tantrum because a drawer was open that previously was not, and it would go for hours.
As a daycare provider, you might have been able to get him on a schedule, but as a parent, I was trying to survive. Sleep deprived and often on the edge of patience, I did the best I could do.

Of the eight (the two older boys joined the family a bit later) four of them were pretty easy going. If they were the only kids, I might feel pretty smug about how they did as well. The other four have had some interesting moments. Did things in public I was unimpressed with and things that were downright embarrassing.
What I have learned is to stop judging. Sometimes parents suck. Sometimes, they just need help. Sometimes even really good parents who do all the "right" things get kids who are hard and do things they shouldn't. In the end, what our kids become is often more a matter of their own little personalities and who they need or desire to be, and less about anything we have done, right or wrong.
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Old 07-06-2014, 02:54 PM
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There isn't any research to show crying damages babies either.

I think one of the unintended consequences is that because the parent doesn't get experience with managing crying with their infant (except to get it before it happens and stop it right away when it does) that by the time the kid turns one the ONLY thing the parent has a skill set in is in stopping it.

The parent hasn't managed their own tolerance. They don't build their own escape hatch. They aren't desensitized to the natural stress of the noise or frustration. They can't have confidence when the kid cries for unreasonable or unsafe demands.

Somehow that natural instinct to be pi$$ed when you are head butted by your toddler gets quelled. The thunder doesn't come to the surface when they kick you in the belly a week after you had their baby brother by cesarean because you can't pick them up. The ding dong that you are doing it wrong when you fell asleep in your two year olds bed while they played till the wee hours of the morning and passed out by the door and the only way you can get out of the room without waking your kid up is to climb out the window.

Those real parental skills don't come to the surface because your care remains at the level of the fragile newborn care.
Ok, I will admit I have seen some of this. I don't think we can blame any particular parenting style here, but there is definitely a group of these.

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder if some of this stems from the first generation of entitled kids who have not had to do anything for themselves, now beginning to raise children, and have no clue how to do so. Are we entering the first generation of children who were raised in a daycare setting and they are assuming daycare (and later school) will handle all the tough stuff, leaving only the overnight storage of the child to the parent?

I also wonder if we have entered a stage where ALL discipline is considered "bad" and parents who don't really understand what that word means.
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Old 07-06-2014, 03:01 PM
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Ok, I will admit I have seen some of this. I don't think we can blame any particular parenting style here, but there is definitely a group of these.

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder if some of this stems from the first generation of entitled kids who have not had to do anything for themselves, now beginning to raise children, and have no clue how to do so. Are we entering the first generation of children who were raised in a daycare setting and they are assuming daycare (and later school) will handle all the tough stuff, leaving only the overnight storage of the child to the parent?

I also wonder if we have entered a stage where ALL discipline is considered "bad" and parents who don't really understand what that word means.
Can I steal "overnight storage"?
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Old 07-06-2014, 03:17 PM
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I understand what you are trying to get at. But I think that you aren't going to see those results if parents *think* they're doing AP and tell you they're doing AP when really they haven't a clue. They call it that, but haven't done the research or don't practice it correctly. You keep saying that you don't like the excuse that they are just doing it "wrong" but there is a right and wrong way, which is probably why you don't always see a bunch of awesome kids who were supposedly AP. Just because a parent says and thinks they're doing AP doesn't mean they're doing it. They are calling it that, but coddling and giving into every whim instead. THAT is not AP. So I guess what I'm getting at, is maybe you aren't seeing a bunch of teachers and daycare providers singing the praises of AP kids because many of those kids have not been brought up by actual AP practices. The parents you are describing are not AP parents, they are parents who don't really have a good grasp of child development or good parenting practices. Unfortunately, this is the norm these days because both parents work and don't choose to devote the little time they do have to figuring out how to parent their children.

Like I posted earlier, I did AP, and I was not constantly tired. I didn't give in to their every cry. That is not what AP is about. My children were not spoiled or coddled. They feel safe around me and others because I gave them the confidence that IF they needed me, I was there.
.......

Ap is a fad that has gotten out of control by extremist and other issues that don't belong in the same category of ap. The cover of Time magazine is a perfect example....the picture of the defiant mother eyeing down the camera with her hand on her hip, while she pulls her 3yr old son close to nurse, with the caption "Are you MOM enough?"

With any new fad it takes time to iron out the wrinkles. Like the saying goes...."it always gets worse before it gets better".

I recently took a class, classroom behavior management, where they compared different cultural child care styles. USA is one of the only countries that promotes individualism.

Look at our college students who cannot find jobs after graduating and move back home. We are constantly promoting individualism to make yourself shine greater than others for many reasons, including economical. These are the same young people that have begun raising families. You don't think this kind of thought and theory will trickle down to their beliefs with raising a child? Of course it will!

Too many other issues have been added into ap and it's taken the wrong turn in what it was meant to achieve.

I hope to see time help smooth out the true meaning behind ap. Have the extremeness of ap theories die away. And the logic of old style parenting Nannyde had mentioned in a pp, be incorporated into the ap style, to help strengthen it.
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Old 07-06-2014, 03:20 PM
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I understand your purpose in starting this thread, and I will be honest, I don't know a lot about what AP is supposed to be. I also want to say, I respect your abilities as a provider, and I believe you do exactly what you claim to do re: getting them all to one place.
However, (and please forgive my lack of tact here) you have one child. You are in no position to judge that you got an "easy" baby because YOU did anything. If I had only one child, I would easily be able to say the same thing. My oldest (number three in the lineup, but the first I gave birth to) was a breeze. Never cried unless there was a real issue. Slept through the night at 3 months. Never had a tantrum. Took him EVERYWHERE. He was an easy kid, and is still a dream kid @26. Mother's dream.

Then the next one came along. Cried from the time he was six weeks old until he was, well.. to be honest, about 5. Not really, but he was HARD. He did NOT want to be carried or even touched. Would scream for hours at a time (four to six often.) Could be set off on a tantrum because a drawer was open that previously was not, and it would go for hours.
As a daycare provider, you might have been able to get him on a schedule, but as a parent, I was trying to survive. Sleep deprived and often on the edge of patience, I did the best I could do.

Of the eight (the two older boys joined the family a bit later) four of them were pretty easy going. If they were the only kids, I might feel pretty smug about how they did as well. The other four have had some interesting moments. Did things in public I was unimpressed with and things that were downright embarrassing.
What I have learned is to stop judging. Sometimes parents suck. Sometimes, they just need help. Sometimes even really good parents who do all the "right" things get kids who are hard and do things they shouldn't. In the end, what our kids become is often more a matter of their own little personalities and who they need or desire to be, and less about anything we have done, right or wrong.
I had one kid but I ran 24/5 daycare with a full boat on both ends. I moved when he was 13 months and got even bigger. I had to get up every hour to two hours EVERY night for 10 years of his life.

I fed the day kids who were in my home after five and the evening kids supper every night. That was 17 suppers average. I did those dishes and cleaned that kitchen.

Nine months before he was born I took a weekend job on an Alzheimer's unit doing Baylors. I worked two double shifts back to back and got home at 10:15 pm . Monday morning I had my first kid come in at 4:30 am. I worked double shifts seven days a week for nine months.

I adopted my son and he was my fourth attempt. I spent every dime of that money trying to become a mother. Once he was born and I got the weekends off, I was in heaven. Having a kid and doing 24/5 was a dream in comparison.

I, like my Grandmother before me, didn't have the luxury of making my kid the center of the universe where all things rotated around. I had to WORK and provide. My Grandma had eleven kids. She had to WORK and provide. She didn't have the luxury to pick one kid and hyperfocus on that kid. There literally was too much to do.

I took the hard road and put my son on the opposite schedule of the kids.while he was a baby. I didn't have a single break because it was the only time I could be alone with him in the midst of making a living. I did what I could and would not have allowed him to take the rest. I had the benefit of a lot of experience but that didn't buy me more hours in the day.
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Old 07-06-2014, 03:32 PM
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Cont...

I do take credit for how easy he was. I take credit for how easy the rest of these block headed, floppy eared, squint eyed mooks turn out too. The ones I get from babyness on are easy because of how I care for them. Now, some are harder than others but none are hard in comparison to what it would be if I did similar care as AP.

I'm not saying there aren't medical and psychological illnesses that can affect how a baby is and even.with experience they would be more challenging babies but if you give me a healthy baby they are going to be easy going.

We give way too much credence to the idea that they are all SO different and that somehow gives a get out of jail card for doing poorly with them. If we are going to assume that attachment parenting nets great kids then we admit that how we are with them affects their outcomes. I'm saying the way I am with babies affects their outcomes.
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Old 07-06-2014, 03:47 PM
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My husband & I would definitely be considered AP/ RIE type crunchy parents. We still breastfeed at 3.5, our son still sleeps in our bed, we cloth diaper, we made our own baby food, we did baby led weaning, we wore him everywhere, we try to take his feelings into consideration, instead of 'just b/c I'm the adult'.. etc.. However, my son from day one has had issues..sensory..something hard wired, etc that make him extremely difficult in some areas-sleep and self soothing in particular. CIO would not work for him even if we agreed to it. He was able to cry for hours on end. It was awful. Now then, we didn't decide to raise him AP style b/c of some expert advice...it just was the method that helped the most with him. I parent him completely differently than my older two, who are adults now. I firmly believe that breastfeeding and holding babies is good & necessary, however if you have a baby that cannot self soothe, it's not ideal to try to enroll in group care.That's why I started my own at home. With my son, we really didn't have much of a choice on what methods to use with him. Some of it was yes, so he wouldn't cry...but not because I don't think babies should ever cry.. merely because if his needs weren't met, he was persistent enough to cry for hours until his voice gave out. So, no, we didn't want to deal with that, for his sake or ours. We didn't pick him up just to cater to him for the hell of it. Not trying to sound like 'my special snowflake',but he really is a high need child. He's still exhausting, but it's not b/c of our parenting. It's just how he's been from day one, and we've tried to be receptive to what he needs and what actually works for him.

With all that said about our own child, other people can definitely follow the AP thing too much. I had a family that wanted me to sleep with their daughter and rub her back for half an hour to get her to sleep...while trying to care for others..not going to happen here. Same family always praised for every single little thing. Way to eat that carrot! Good sharing! Wonderful gentle hands with the kitty...etc...ad nauseum. It got old real quick. Precious pookie would run all over and never sit to eat, try to graze all day, was not a good sharer...b/c they didn't believe in the word no. Heh-my son hears no all the time. I see it a lot that I think moms especially, try and have a front of perfect patient parent, no matter the parenting style. I see moms who spank, moms who don't, moms who wouldn't dare let something non-organic touch her kid's lips, and moms who feed their kids cheetos for breakfast all do that constant praise thing. THAT'S annoying.
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Old 07-06-2014, 04:04 PM
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Can I steal "overnight storage"?
Definitely. Good trade for sqoozed.
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Old 07-06-2014, 04:18 PM
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Cont...

I do take credit for how easy he was. I take credit for how easy the rest of these block headed, floppy eared, squint eyed mooks turn out too. The ones I get from babyness on are easy because of how I care for them. Now, some are harder than others but none are hard in comparison to what it would be if I did similar care as AP.

I'm not saying there aren't medical and psychological illnesses that can affect how a baby is and even.with experience they would be more challenging babies but if you give me a healthy baby they are going to be easy going.

We give way too much credence to the idea that they are all SO different and that somehow gives a get out of jail card for doing poorly with them. If we are going to assume that attachment parenting nets great kids then we admit that how we are with them affects their outcomes. I'm saying the way I am with babies affects their outcomes.
No. I give credence to the fact that they are all SO different. But that by no means give a free card to not do your best with your child. I am saying there are times that we do our best and it is not always how we would like the outcome to be. I am also saying sometimes it is really HARD on the way there.

If you were to judge my parenting by my current 14 yo I am an abject failure. He talks back, challenges everything we say, even threatened to hit my husband. One of us accompanies him to his baseball because he cannot be trusted to not attack one of the other kids, often for the most minimal of insults. But we are not done, and we still try. But it is hard.

If you were to judge my parenting by the child I mentioned before (second born, the one who challenged us throughout his childhood with even worse issues than the current child) I am a success. He is engaged, on his last year of college, and plans to be a physics teacher for high school. He is polite, intelligent, and caring, and has a future.

I am sure you do well with your kiddos, both dck and your own. I like to think the kids who come through here are better for being here. But it isn't your style or mine that makes them so. It is the fact that we care, pay attention, understand and respond to their cues and use that stepping stone to guide them into their best selves. That is what benefits your kids and mine.
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Old 07-06-2014, 04:29 PM
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I was an AP mom. My son at two years this month has still not slept through the night. I weaned him at 20 months cold turkey because he began constantly demanding to nurse, and I could not nurse a toddler eight times or more a day while running a daycare!

He's fantastically smart. Speaks in complete sentences, makes comparisons, talks about abstract concepts, plays long, complex imaginative games. His behavior is no better or worse than a typical two year old, though he's never hit anyone and doesn't throw temper tantrums often or for long.

I'm so grateful I began the daycare when he was 14 months. If I hadn't, he would certainly be spoiled and entitled. I've had to say no, enforce rules, and stop catering to his every cry. We are working to undo the bad sleep habits I helped him develop as an infant.

Next baby, I'll do things differently
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Old 07-06-2014, 04:33 PM
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I am sure you do well with your kiddos, both dck and your own. I like to think the kids who come through here are better for being here. But it isn't your style or mine that makes them so. It is the fact that we care, pay attention, understand and respond to their cues and use that stepping stone to guide them into their best selves. That is what benefits your kids and mine.
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Old 07-06-2014, 04:48 PM
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Definitely. Good trade for sqoozed.
I have been paid in full. .
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Old 07-06-2014, 04:56 PM
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Attachment Parenting: How Today's Parents Are Messing Up Their Kids
http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/rea...152157Although


I hadn't realized it was "Attachment Parenting" at the time, my ex SIL and Bil, who had five kids, practiced this bull****. It was a*complete*pain in the ass to be around them because of it and all of the ****ing nonsense like asking a toddler's permission to put his ass in a car seat, "Gabriel, is it*okay*if daddy straps you in now?", or allowing a 5 y/o to make his own lunch choices while AT a busy lunch counter line and everyone is WAITING while*this*crap goes on: "Zachariah, do you want the chicken nuggets like at McDonalds, the little hot dogs on a stick like at the fair, the baby hamburgers like at Krystal, or the ham sandwich with the crust cut off like at Gram Gram's?. Do you want pink milk, Juicy-Juice with a straw, a bottle of water, or do you just want to drink some of mommy's lemonade from your cup? Do you want the curly wurly fries, the little tater wedges, or the big boy baked potato like daddy gets?", FFS JUST*ORDER*ALREADY AND MOVE THE******OUT THE WAY!

They of course do this **** in a sing-sing voice and scan the audience for nods of approval too which is HIGHLY obvious and annoying as well. Then they'd do that thing with the baby wearing, asking the kids' opinions on everything from what they ate or watched on TV, "Okay guys! It's Rachel's turn to pick where we go eat tonight!", or "Joseph, you and Rebeccah decide on either the Disney channel or the Cartoon network, but remember, it's*only*fair that daddy get to watch the ballgame at 8PM, so pick something that's over by then, okay? Is that okay? You agree that's fair, don't you?" FFS, dump them in a back bedroom where there's a small TV with kiddie videos and be DONE with it!*

In addition to all of that, they'd do all of it loud enough and in that ANNOYING voice they get so that*everyone*could see what great parents they were. She is a Captain in the Air Force and he had a masters degree in computer science, but was a stay at home dad and NEVER worked another day after the first loaf and he home schooled too. Those kids ALL have something wrong with them too including behavioral disorders, anorexia, anxiety and phobias, and one of those kids STILL hadn't uttered an audible word by the time he was in kindergarten and I have no idea what his diagnosis was or why he would only whisper to one of his parents when asked a question by someone else and*they*basically spoke for him.*

My up close look at Attachment Parenting caused me to believe it was a crock of **** and an irresponsible parenting "method"
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Old 07-06-2014, 05:00 PM
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Attachment Parenting: How Today's Parents Are Messing Up Their Kids
http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/rea...152157Although


I hadn't realized it was "Attachment Parenting" at the time, my ex SIL and Bil, who had five kids, practiced this bull****. It was a*complete*pain in the ass to be around them because of it and all of the ****ing nonsense like asking a toddler's permission to put his ass in a car seat, "Gabriel, is it*okay*if daddy straps you in now?", or allowing a 5 y/o to make his own lunch choices while AT a busy lunch counter line and everyone is WAITING while*this*crap goes on: "Zachariah, do you want the chicken nuggets like at McDonalds, the little hot dogs on a stick like at the fair, the baby hamburgers like at Krystal, or the ham sandwich with the crust cut off like at Gram Gram's?. Do you want pink milk, Juicy-Juice with a straw, a bottle of water, or do you just want to drink some of mommy's lemonade from your cup? Do you want the curly wurly fries, the little tater wedges, or the big boy baked potato like daddy gets?", FFS JUST*ORDER*ALREADY AND MOVE THE******OUT THE WAY!

They of course do this **** in a sing-sing voice and scan the audience for nods of approval too which is HIGHLY obvious and annoying as well. Then they'd do that thing with the baby wearing, asking the kids' opinions on everything from what they ate or watched on TV, "Okay guys! It's Rachel's turn to pick where we go eat tonight!", or "Joseph, you and Rebeccah decide on either the Disney channel or the Cartoon network, but remember, it's*only*fair that daddy get to watch the ballgame at 8PM, so pick something that's over by then, okay? Is that okay? You agree that's fair, don't you?" FFS, dump them in a back bedroom where there's a small TV with kiddie videos and be DONE with it!*

In addition to all of that, they'd do all of it loud enough and in that ANNOYING voice they get so that*everyone*could see what great parents they were. She is a Captain in the Air Force and he had a masters degree in computer science, but was a stay at home dad and NEVER worked another day after the first loaf and he home schooled too. Those kids ALL have something wrong with them too including behavioral disorders, anorexia, anxiety and phobias, and one of those kids STILL hadn't uttered an audible word by the time he was in kindergarten and I have no idea what his diagnosis was or why he would only whisper to one of his parents when asked a question by someone else and*they*basically spoke for him.*

My up close look at Attachment Parenting caused me to believe it was a crock of **** and an irresponsible parenting "method"
OHHH!!! AP!!!! ATTENTION-PARENTING
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Old 07-06-2014, 05:03 PM
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OHHH!!! AP!!!! ATTENTION-PARENTING
You know that has been weighing on the mind too but I won't start a thread about it. I think this one has been enough torture for a good year on daycare.com

Heading back to where I belong.... thread starting has never been my strong suit.
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Old 07-06-2014, 05:05 PM
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Never worked a day after the first loaf.
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Old 07-06-2014, 05:10 PM
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You know that has been weighing on the mind too but I won't start a thread about it. I think this one has been enough torture for a good year on daycare.com

Heading back to where I belong.... thread starting has never been my strong suit.
Oh, it has been a good conversation! It seems like some people are firmly on one side or another, but I guess I am not on either. It isn't that I don't know what I think. Maybe it's that I think some people can do AP (without the attention component!) and some people can't figure out when it is time to move on or modify what they are doing.
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Old 07-06-2014, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
Attachment Parenting: How Today's Parents Are Messing Up Their Kids
http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/rea...152157Although


I hadn't realized it was "Attachment Parenting" at the time, my ex SIL and Bil, who had five kids, practiced this bull****. It was a*complete*pain in the ass to be around them because of it and all of the ****ing nonsense like asking a toddler's permission to put his ass in a car seat, "Gabriel, is it*okay*if daddy straps you in now?", or allowing a 5 y/o to make his own lunch choices while AT a busy lunch counter line and everyone is WAITING while*this*crap goes on: "Zachariah, do you want the chicken nuggets like at McDonalds, the little hot dogs on a stick like at the fair, the baby hamburgers like at Krystal, or the ham sandwich with the crust cut off like at Gram Gram's?. Do you want pink milk, Juicy-Juice with a straw, a bottle of water, or do you just want to drink some of mommy's lemonade from your cup? Do you want the curly wurly fries, the little tater wedges, or the big boy baked potato like daddy gets?", FFS JUST*ORDER*ALREADY AND MOVE THE******OUT THE WAY!

They of course do this **** in a sing-sing voice and scan the audience for nods of approval too which is HIGHLY obvious and annoying as well. Then they'd do that thing with the baby wearing, asking the kids' opinions on everything from what they ate or watched on TV, "Okay guys! It's Rachel's turn to pick where we go eat tonight!", or "Joseph, you and Rebeccah decide on either the Disney channel or the Cartoon network, but remember, it's*only*fair that daddy get to watch the ballgame at 8PM, so pick something that's over by then, okay? Is that okay? You agree that's fair, don't you?" FFS, dump them in a back bedroom where there's a small TV with kiddie videos and be DONE with it!*

In addition to all of that, they'd do all of it loud enough and in that ANNOYING voice they get so that*everyone*could see what great parents they were. She is a Captain in the Air Force and he had a masters degree in computer science, but was a stay at home dad and NEVER worked another day after the first loaf and he home schooled too. Those kids ALL have something wrong with them too including behavioral disorders, anorexia, anxiety and phobias, and one of those kids STILL hadn't uttered an audible word by the time he was in kindergarten and I have no idea what his diagnosis was or why he would only whisper to one of his parents when asked a question by someone else and*they*basically spoke for him.*

My up close look at Attachment Parenting caused me to believe it was a crock of **** and an irresponsible parenting "method"
Oh dear. That's not parenting. That's ... That's ...
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Old 07-06-2014, 06:35 PM
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It's been an excellent debate without anyone getting their feathers fluffed! Don't stop thread-starting!
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Old 07-06-2014, 06:53 PM
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Ok, I will admit I have seen some of this. I don't think we can blame any particular parenting style here, but there is definitely a group of these.

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder if some of this stems from the first generation of entitled kids who have not had to do anything for themselves, now beginning to raise children, and have no clue how to do so. Are we entering the first generation of children who were raised in a daycare setting and they are assuming daycare (and later school) will handle all the tough stuff, leaving only the overnight storage of the child to the parent?

I also wonder if we have entered a stage where ALL discipline is considered "bad" and parents who don't really understand what that word means.
AMEN, sister!!!!!!! THIS has been my daycare experience. Whatever parenting style you choose is a skill. Getting better at a skill takes practice...lots and lots of practice.
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:04 PM
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Ok, I will admit I have seen some of this. I don't think we can blame any particular parenting style here, but there is definitely a group of these.

I haven't read all the responses, but I wonder if some of this stems from the first generation of entitled kids who have not had to do anything for themselves, now beginning to raise children, and have no clue how to do so. Are we entering the first generation of children who were raised in a daycare setting and they are assuming daycare (and later school) will handle all the tough stuff, leaving only the overnight storage of the child to the parent?

I also wonder if we have entered a stage where ALL discipline is considered "bad" and parents who don't really understand what that word means.
Oh yes, do I ever believe this. I see entitled 20-somethings everywhere, and now they are having babies.

I see a fair amount of "kids" today who don't understand working hard, the word "no", and think the world owes them something. And now I feel really old because I'm in my mid-thirties.
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:05 PM
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It's been an excellent debate without anyone getting their feathers fluffed! Don't stop thread-starting!
This has been a great and informative post! I agree!
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by nannyde View Post
Attachment Parenting: How Today's Parents Are Messing Up Their Kids
http://www.refugees.bratfree.com/rea...152157Although


I hadn't realized it was "Attachment Parenting" at the time, my ex SIL and Bil, who had five kids, practiced this bull****. It was a*complete*pain in the ass to be around them because of it and all of the ****ing nonsense like asking a toddler's permission to put his ass in a car seat, "Gabriel, is it*okay*if daddy straps you in now?", or allowing a 5 y/o to make his own lunch choices while AT a busy lunch counter line and everyone is WAITING while*this*crap goes on: "Zachariah, do you want the chicken nuggets like at McDonalds, the little hot dogs on a stick like at the fair, the baby hamburgers like at Krystal, or the ham sandwich with the crust cut off like at Gram Gram's?. Do you want pink milk, Juicy-Juice with a straw, a bottle of water, or do you just want to drink some of mommy's lemonade from your cup? Do you want the curly wurly fries, the little tater wedges, or the big boy baked potato like daddy gets?", FFS JUST*ORDER*ALREADY AND MOVE THE******OUT THE WAY!

They of course do this **** in a sing-sing voice and scan the audience for nods of approval too which is HIGHLY obvious and annoying as well. Then they'd do that thing with the baby wearing, asking the kids' opinions on everything from what they ate or watched on TV, "Okay guys! It's Rachel's turn to pick where we go eat tonight!", or "Joseph, you and Rebeccah decide on either the Disney channel or the Cartoon network, but remember, it's*only*fair that daddy get to watch the ballgame at 8PM, so pick something that's over by then, okay? Is that okay? You agree that's fair, don't you?" FFS, dump them in a back bedroom where there's a small TV with kiddie videos and be DONE with it!*

In addition to all of that, they'd do all of it loud enough and in that ANNOYING voice they get so that*everyone*could see what great parents they were. She is a Captain in the Air Force and he had a masters degree in computer science, but was a stay at home dad and NEVER worked another day after the first loaf and he home schooled too. Those kids ALL have something wrong with them too including behavioral disorders, anorexia, anxiety and phobias, and one of those kids STILL hadn't uttered an audible word by the time he was in kindergarten and I have no idea what his diagnosis was or why he would only whisper to one of his parents when asked a question by someone else and*they*basically spoke for him.*

My up close look at Attachment Parenting caused me to believe it was a crock of **** and an irresponsible parenting "method"
Ok but in that example, those parents are not practicing attachment parenting. That is just passive parenting. Passive parenting does not equal attachment parenting and I think from the many examples you have provided, you are confusing the two. Here are the very basics of attachment parenting: http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/par...t-ap-7-baby-bs

I don't see anywhere in there that says attachment parenting means to ask your child for permission to do things or that you have to let your child control the parent's decisions as your example describes. This is another case of people who say they are attachment parenting just to use the buzzword without any actual knowledge of the practice.
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:18 PM
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Also this link explains what AP is not : http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/par...ng/what-ap-not
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:38 PM
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Also this link explains what AP is not : http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/par...ng/what-ap-not
I have a BIG problem with the sixth B. You should never advise a parent to dismiss other sleep training methods. To me, if you are going to do bullet points you shouldn't include "don't buy other people's stuff" It decreases their credibility.

If there is a method that takes a few days of discomfort but nets a solid deep sleep night after night, month after month, year after year.... you should at least hear them out.
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:39 PM
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Also just wanted to add that there are many things Dr. sears says that I wholeheartedly disagree with. His opinions are not the "be all end all" for me and his practices won't work for everyone. But I was a teacher for 6 years before I had kids and have seen the results of every parenting style under the sun. I had a very good idea of how I wanted to raise my kids before going into this and I researched the crap out of best practices. I don't like being lumped in with the cutesy, permissive parents that let their children get away with anything and everything just because I call myself an "attachment parent". It is a buzzword for some, but not for me. I have also seen a lot of really troubling behaviors in children who come from very rigid parents, but that style worked for you and its what you had to do.

I get that AP is on your mind. It's on a lot of people's minds because it is a popular concept in today's culture. But I suggest that before you write an article about why we aren't seeing positive results from AP kids, you need to know the true definition of what AP is. You also need to consider that teachers and experts don't necessarily sing the praises of any one parenting style. We know that so much more than parenting style goes into what makes a "good kid".
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:47 PM
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Also just wanted to add that there are many things Dr. sears says that I wholeheartedly disagree with. His opinions are not the "be all end all" for me and his practices won't work for everyone. But I was a teacher for 6 years before I had kids and have seen the results of every parenting style under the sun. I had a very good idea of how I wanted to raise my kids before going into this and I researched the crap out of best practices. I don't like being lumped in with the cutesy, permissive parents that let their children get away with anything and everything just because I call myself an "attachment parent". It is a buzzword for some, but not for me. I have also seen a lot of really troubling behaviors in children who come from very rigid parents, but that style worked for you and its what you had to do.

I get that AP is on your mind. It's on a lot of people's minds because it is a popular concept in today's culture. But I suggest that before you write an article about why we aren't seeing positive results from AP kids, you need to know the true definition of what AP is. You also need to consider that teachers and experts don't necessarily sing the praises of any one parenting style. We know that so much more than parenting style goes into what makes a "good kid".
How was my method rigid? My kids babyhood was easy as Sunday morning. I'm very good at taking care of infants. It's what I "do".

Obviously the attachment parenting is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not going with "if the kid turns.out great the attachment worked. If he turns out poorly the parents were doing it wrong". That's a standard every business would love to adopt. It doesn't work like that.
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Old 07-06-2014, 07:49 PM
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I have a BIG problem with the sixth B. You should never advise a parent to dismiss other sleep training methods. To me, if you are going to do bullet points you shouldn't include "don't buy other people's stuff" It decreases their credibility.

If there is a method that takes a few days of discomfort but nets a solid deep sleep night after night, month after month, year after year.... you should at least hear them out.
And that's OK! As with any parenting style, you take what works for your family and leave the rest! I tried CIO with my first for weeks when transitioning to daycare and it didn't work for her. She was so stubborn she could stay up all night screaming. Luckily, she played hard at daycare and didn't have trouble sleeping there so we ditched CIO and went back to her sleeping in the pack n play in my room until she was ready to be in her room.
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Old 07-06-2014, 08:01 PM
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How was my method rigid? My kids babyhood was easy as Sunday morning. I'm very good at taking care of infants. It's what I "do".

Obviously the attachment parenting is in the eye of the beholder. I'm not going with "if the kid turns.out great the attachment worked. If he turns out poorly the parents were doing it wrong". That's a standard every business would love to adopt. It doesn't work like that.
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off disrespectful with the rigid comment. I just didn't have a better word at the time. I have no idea what your style was like, I just assumed that you tend to stick to schedules more and that is all I meant my rigid. Not cold or mean as I'm sure that came off. Sorry about that.

I do agree with you about not accepting that the parent was just doing it wrong. But couldn't you say that about any parenting style? I mean, why single out attachment parenting? Plenty of people turn out great despite awful circumstances, and plenty of people turn out bad despite having the best parents possible.

And really, no disrespect Nanny! I hope you know that. I'm enjoying our discussion
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Old 07-06-2014, 09:25 PM
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Mother Nature,

"....but babies that cannot self soothe, it's not ideal to enroll in group care"

I think that is close to an exact quote!

This exactly! Good post overall, but that quote really stood out to me as the most relevant thing in this thread. I think it is fine for parent(s) who are able to stay at home and provide this type of parenting. But group care is sooooo different. I have a little guy now who is struggling with transition to daycare because he is used to one on one care, A P style. It's been tough on us both, but we're making progress with learning self soothe, and not being carried or held all the time and sleeping in a crib.
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Old 07-06-2014, 10:55 PM
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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off disrespectful with the rigid comment. I just didn't have a better word at the time. I have no idea what your style was like, I just assumed that you tend to stick to schedules more and that is all I meant my rigid. Not cold or mean as I'm sure that came off. Sorry about that.

I do agree with you about not accepting that the parent was just doing it wrong. But couldn't you say that about any parenting style? I mean, why single out attachment parenting? Plenty of people turn out great despite awful circumstances, and plenty of people turn out bad despite having the best parents possible.

And really, no disrespect Nanny! I hope you know that. I'm enjoying our discussion
Agreed. I am the product of the exact same household as my brother and sister. HOWEVER, we are so drastically different in our parenting styles, in our attitudes, in our work ethics, and in the fact that they both are quite narcissistic and self involved. I have no idea, most days, how we three were cut from the same cloth.
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Old 07-07-2014, 04:50 AM
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WOW. 96 comments on one topic AND on a holiday weekend! We really need to get lives. Lolol.
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Old 07-07-2014, 05:57 AM
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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off disrespectful with the rigid comment. I just didn't have a better word at the time. I have no idea what your style was like, I just assumed that you tend to stick to schedules more and that is all I meant my rigid. Not cold or mean as I'm sure that came off. Sorry about that.

I do agree with you about not accepting that the parent was just doing it wrong. But couldn't you say that about any parenting style? I mean, why single out attachment parenting? Plenty of people turn out great despite awful circumstances, and plenty of people turn out bad despite having the best parents possible.

And really, no disrespect Nanny! I hope you know that. I'm enjoying our discussion
I didn't read it as disrespectful at ALL. I just wanted to clarify that there are other methods that net sleeping babies without being rigid.

I was lucky to pull it off so young but I had a very big baby. He's turning 14 and is already 6 foot tall. I couldn't have carried that moose around if I wanted to. I would be on disability now.

I wouldn't have put up with a baby who could leg up over the side of the crib (which were deep in those days) being up all night. I couldn't. I had to work. Before he was six weeks I fed him on the schedule of my evening kids departure. That way I could sleep in between.

He slept 10 to 5 and then over weeks to come I added fifteen minutes on each end. He slept a twelve hour night by the time he was six months or so. 7 to 7.
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  #99  
Old 07-07-2014, 06:36 AM
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Blackcat31 Blackcat31 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by altandra View Post
I'm sorry. I didn't mean to come off disrespectful with the rigid comment. I just didn't have a better word at the time. I have no idea what your style was like, I just assumed that you tend to stick to schedules more and that is all I meant my rigid. Not cold or mean as I'm sure that came off. Sorry about that.

I do agree with you about not accepting that the parent was just doing it wrong. But couldn't you say that about any parenting style? I mean, why single out attachment parenting? Plenty of people turn out great despite awful circumstances, and plenty of people turn out bad despite having the best parents possible.

And really, no disrespect Nanny! I hope you know that. I'm enjoying our discussion
Because it's the one that is currently on blue light special.

It's the method being "requested" by parents of children in group care

Because so many parents ARE doing it wrong

Because it supposedly is "best"

In my eyes, it's just a label. Something the parents can say they are participating in/practicing/part of..... it goes back to the root of wanting to "belong" IMO.

To me, it's the same approach my grand parents took, my parents took and I took in raising our children.

Know your child
Understand their unique personalities
Do what works for THAT child.

Only difference was, that parenting style/approach/technique didn't have a fancy name.

It was just called parenting.
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  #100  
Old 07-07-2014, 07:07 AM
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Angelsj Angelsj is offline
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Ok but in that example, those parents are not practicing attachment parenting. That is just passive parenting. Passive parenting does not equal attachment parenting and I think from the many examples you have provided, you are confusing the two. Here are the very basics of attachment parenting: http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/par...t-ap-7-baby-bs
I don't know how passive that is. It sounds like a LOT of work!! It also is allowing your child to inconvenience others, and that goes against the basics of justice. (I am not referring to your link. I haven't read that yet.)
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