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Old 11-17-2017, 06:01 PM
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Default Thoughts about Love and Logic?

I've never read it. I am a fan of Jane Nelson and Positive Discipline. But I know that some people are big fans of Love and Logic and there are folk who teach classes on it.

First let me say that I'm not trying to pick a fight here--I totally respect that people are big fans of L&L. However, I have never been overly impressed with any of the Love and Logic families that I know of. They all seem to run a bit on the lenient side (or a lot), and comments from others have given me the impression that L&L uses "tricks" on children.

I know that I really need to just go and read it for myself and solve the mystery, since it comes up for me every few years. Right now, DH and I have been invited to a class at church on "Family Relations" and one of the other couples in the class freely admits needing help with disciplining their young children. The teachers of the class are one of the L&L couples that I mentioned earlier.

So, while I know I need to jump in an research it for myself, does anyone have any thoughts to share on L & L? Am I mistaken in my impression that it's a bit lenient method/s and that it teaches using "tricks" on children?
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:04 PM
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And why on earth is it the one topic that Wikipedia has no entry on? The only time that I've ever done a wikipedia search and come up with nothing is when it's a really obscure topic.
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:10 PM
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It seems similar to Barbara Coloroso's Kids Are Worth It to me.

You say yes for almost everything...but it's "yes, when"

and save "no" for when it's life threatening, immoral, or permanent.

A good example.

DD: Mommy, may I go play outside?

ME: Of course you can, as soon as you've cleaned your room.
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Old 11-17-2017, 06:11 PM
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I pick and choose what I want from any parenting style. My favorite L&L line is "Bummer". Kids can't share a toy? "Oh bummer. Now Ms. Midaycare has to take it." Said with a sad face.
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Old 11-17-2017, 07:30 PM
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I read Love and Logic quite a few years ago. If I remember correctly, the premise is if you allow your child to make decisions and experience the natural consequences of those decisions, he/she will learn to make better decisions and will eventually grow up to be a more responsible adult. (There's probably more to it than that but, in a nutshell, that's what I remember.) Basically, if your child refuses to wear a jacket on a cold day, don't turn it into a battle. Allow him to make the decision not to wear it. The natural consequence is that he will feel cold that day. Once he experiences how uncomfortable it is to so cold, he'll probably make a different decision next time. If your child refuses to eat her dinner, no worries. Let her experience the natural consequence of being hungry until the next meal is served. Next time, she'll probably choose to eat dinner. After finishing the book, I remember thinking, "I paid $15.95 for that??! It's just common sense!"

I don't remember it teaching parents to use tricks on kids but maybe it's been so long since I've read it that I've forgotten something or maybe the book has been rewritten since I read it. I also wouldn't say that it promotes lenient parenting per se. It may seem lenient to allow kids to make their own choices and not to enforce the decision you want your child to make (It's cold outside today. I think you'd feel more comfortable if you wear a jacket. No? Okay, let's go. vs. We're not leaving until you put your jacket on!) but it does take some tough love not to bail your child out when they end up suffering the natural consequences of their own decisions. (I can see you're shivering. I'm sorry you're feeling so uncomfortable but that's what happens when you leave your jacket at home on a cold day.) It's a quick read so I would say if you're interested, borrow the book from the library and see what you think before signing up for the class.
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Old 11-18-2017, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e.j. View Post
I read Love and Logic quite a few years ago. If I remember correctly, the premise is if you allow your child to make decisions and experience the natural consequences of those decisions, he/she will learn to make better decisions and will eventually grow up to be a more responsible adult. (There's probably more to it than that but, in a nutshell, that's what I remember.) Basically, if your child refuses to wear a jacket on a cold day, don't turn it into a battle. Allow him to make the decision not to wear it. The natural consequence is that he will feel cold that day. Once he experiences how uncomfortable it is to so cold, he'll probably make a different decision next time. If your child refuses to eat her dinner, no worries. Let her experience the natural consequence of being hungry until the next meal is served. Next time, she'll probably choose to eat dinner. After finishing the book, I remember thinking, "I paid $15.95 for that??! It's just common sense!"

I don't remember it teaching parents to use tricks on kids but maybe it's been so long since I've read it that I've forgotten something or maybe the book has been rewritten since I read it. I also wouldn't say that it promotes lenient parenting per se. It may seem lenient to allow kids to make their own choices and not to enforce the decision you want your child to make (It's cold outside today. I think you'd feel more comfortable if you wear a jacket. No? Okay, let's go. vs. We're not leaving until you put your jacket on!) but it does take some tough love not to bail your child out when they end up suffering the natural consequences of their own decisions. (I can see you're shivering. I'm sorry you're feeling so uncomfortable but that's what happens when you leave your jacket at home on a cold day.) It's a quick read so I would say if you're interested, borrow the book from the library and see what you think before signing up for the class.
Hmmm, I can see where most of the time letting a child experience the consequences of their own actions, but I would think it would depend on the age in question. My 3 1/2 yo dcgs would come every day dressed in summer dresses with bare legs and arms, if given the choice. When we go outside I don't give them a choice. Hats, mittens, it all stays on. Is that a wrong move? A lot of things would set a precedent within a dc; if 1 dck refuses to wear a coat, they all refuse. Course this is just one example. But sometimes children need to know where their boundaries are. I'm halfway between the thinking 'because I'm the adult and I say so' and 'letting them make their own mistakes'. Depends on ages and circumstances.
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Old 11-18-2017, 07:56 AM
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The county schools and the Montessori school here use it, so I use it, too. It's useful but not so much for toddlers; if you pick up "Love & Logic: Magic for Early Childhood," what they mean by "Early Childhood" is really more like preschool.

Like any disciplinary philosophy books, they use examples that seem great but don't actually happen all that often in real life. You have to figure out how best to apply it. And like most disciplinary philosophies, if you do apply it consistently, you will get some positive results from your child's response, and you'll get a lot of positive results from simply having a playbook and knowing that your child can't pull the rug out from under you.

The general concept is that children whose parents pick lots of battles will win sometimes, and even one or two wins communicates to the child that their parents are out of control and that the child can wrest control of any situation if they act out enough. Instead of being lenient, however, you're supposed to pay close attention to what sets your child off, and work to circumvent those situations--basically, redirection before Little Bobby bites Janey, which is what we're all doing right now--and that you have creative "nobody loses" solutions instead of setting everything up as a zero-sum game.

For instance, my kid wouldn't get dressed in the mornings. I had an office job, Daddy had an office job, and we were all going to be late. Love & Logic says to just take the kid to school in their pajamas (this is actually something the school supports) and let them live the embarrassment of getting dressed on the playground in front of their peers while Mom and Dad drive off to work. My daughter went to school in her underpants twice, and never again.

A parent of an older child said that her son wouldn't take his turn doing the dishes. He got up in the morning, said "Hey; where's breakfast?" and she said, "Oooooh. Sorry. There are no clean pots. No breakfast today."

A teacher at the school calculated how much $ she made per minute on her salary, and started charging her daughter that much for each minute late her daughter ran in the mornings. (The sneaky girl actually called the local taxi company, found out it'd cost her less to take a taxi to school, and negotiated a lower fee.) But the girl did learn that putzing around instead of being on time has an actual cost to it.

So, figuring out creative solutions so that kids can't get the upper hand is the general point--you look for the natural consequences of bad behavior, and you steer the situation so those natural consequences happen and happen hard and happen consistently. Since I grew up in an abusive household in a spiritually-abusive church that followed Dr. Dobson and Bill Gothard's "Whip them till you break their will" mode of thought, L&L really appeals to me.
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