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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Angry, Anxious, Bullying, Grabbing Nearly - 4yo
Pestle 01:47 PM 04-25-2019
I have a nearly-3yo and a barely-3yo in my program, and a nearly-4yo. The younger two are head and shoulders above the nearly-4yo in terms of spacial sense, cause and effect, attentiveness, and general social intelligence. There's a nearly-2yo who is rapidly gaining on this older one, too.

It's not that he's not developing. He is, and I've seen some cognitive leaps in the last few weeks. But I've also seen a sudden increase in snatching toys, weaponized screaming (you know . . . when they use max-volume angry shrieks and bellows to try to get their way when you tell them "no"), and casually swatting or shoving any child within reach. He's sleeping longer both here and at home, backsliding on potty training, and has lost some of his ability to sit still for a story or other group activity.

Today culminated in a 15-minute screaming fest. We curtailed outdoor time, came inside, and he stood at the gate in the other space and screamed at us more. "I want to come in! EEE! EEE!" "Screaming hurts our ears. Kids who don't scream may play with us. Are you all done screaming?" "EEE! EEE!"

Yesterday was the same thing, although it didn't escalate as badly. Both times, he shoved another kid in the yard in order to steal the ball THEY had because he didn't want HIS ball. This has become the only way he "plays." It's been like this all along--he only wants things others have--but the aggression and the charging-in-to-take-it is new. When he loses the object he stole, he flips out. When I talk with him at other, calm times, he says "I don't know" in response to all questions, prompts, and suggestions. I assume that's either a time/memory/cause-and-effect problem, or avoidance.

Unfortunately, the behaviors are leeching out to all the other kids. Terminating will result in a 50% loss of income because he's got a sibling enrolled, and I'd rather, if possible, learn some new behavioral management skills.
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Ariana 02:02 PM 04-25-2019
I can tell you what I would do in this case and what I have done. Give him a clear consequence for behaviour. Talk to him BEFORE play begins, before the bad behavior starts. “Jimmy we are going outside to play, we play nicely in the yard, do you know what nicely means?.....yes it means we are not screaming, pushing or being mean to our friends. Do you like to be pushed and hit? Of course not so your friends don’t either. Now if I have to talk to you about behavior you are going to have to come and play in this area, understand”?

Then set up a small space with no toys for him to play in. Could be a hula hoop, a picnic table...whatever as long as it is really boring and away from the others. First offence he goes in right away. Give him a few minutes of tantrumming and then ask him “would you like another chance”? “Ok but if I have to talk to you one more time you are spending the rest of the time in this space”. Then follow through. Bring him back to the space over and over if he refuses to stay there.

This is how I deal with violence for a kid who knows better. I don’t have the time or resources to figure out WHY a behaviour is taking place. I have to nip it in the bud right away so stating clear expectations and consequences is how I deal with it. Then I tell the kid to make “good choices” every day. This puts some of the power back into his hands. It is his “choice” to be excluded or not. Reminders before play, then follow through. I did this for my own kids too.
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Pestle 02:43 PM 04-25-2019
Originally Posted by Ariana:
Give him a clear consequence for behaviour.
Yes, I am doing this.

Originally Posted by Ariana:
Talk to him BEFORE play begins, before the bad behavior starts.
Yes, I am doing this.

Originally Posted by Ariana:
Do you like to be pushed and hit? Of course not so your friends don’t either.
If you've found this works, good for you. I'm pretty sold on the notion that appealing to guilt and empathy is spitting into the wind with a 3yo.

Originally Posted by Ariana:
I don’t have the time or resources to figure out WHY a behaviour is taking place.
Going to disagree with you there. I think it's helpful, when a cause can be sussed out, to have more than one tool in my toolkit. Kids don't always respond in the same way to the same disciplinary measures, and knowing a little behavioral psychology can keep me from beating my head against the same wall over and over again. Plus, having a sense of what exactly it is that they're trying so hard and failing to express can help me, emotionally, to weather that season with them.

Originally Posted by Ariana:
I have to nip it in the bud right away so stating clear expectations and consequences is how I deal with it.
Yes, I do that.
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Pestle 02:53 PM 04-25-2019
The consequence of being separated from the other children is extremely upsetting to this child. It is always the consequence that I impose for antisocial behavior. Then, at the next transition, they are reintroduced to the group. With the other kids, they fuss from the other side of the gate for a little while, then start cheerfully playing along. This child gets increasingly upset, screaming and groaning and rolling around on the floor, and it never. lets. up. Persistence is a signature quality of his, in all things.

Again, when I discuss appropriate behavior or his experience with the last consequence, he is either not comprehending or he's avoiding. I'm not sure which. But over the last week he has started at least answering questions like "How did you feel while you were screaming?" and "How did Bobby feel when you took his car?"

The catchphrase is "But I WANT to." It's what he screams when he gets a "No, you may not" or a "That hurts. We do not hurt." The parent is not caving in, either, and is as flummoxed as I am, but reports he's been disruptively clingy at home over the last couple of weeks.
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Ariana 02:55 PM 04-25-2019
Originally Posted by Pestle:
Yes, I am doing this.
Yes, I am doing this.
What are the consequences for behaviour? You did not clearly state them. Maybe you need different consequences. Consequences always work, they are tried and true but not every consequence works for every child. Find their currency.


Originally Posted by :
If you've found this works, good for you. I'm pretty sold on the notion that appealing to guilt and empathy is spitting into the wind with a 3yo.
I like to think 3YO are intelligent enough to understand that others do not like things they do not like.

Originally Posted by :
Going to disagree with you there. I think it's helpful, when a cause can be sussed out, to have more than one tool in my toolkit. Kids don't always respond in the same way to the same disciplinary measures, and knowing a little behavioral psychology can keep me from beating my head against the same wall over and over again. Plus, having a sense of what exactly it is that they're trying so hard and failing to express can help me, emotionally, to weather that season with them.
In the meantime in the months it will take you figure out his “psychology” he is torturing the kids in your care. I deal with violent behaviour first then figure out where it is coming from.
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Pestle 03:12 PM 04-25-2019
Ariana, you can implement a predictable, consistent consequence and ALSO work to educate yourself and expand your skills. If you're assuming it takes months to research a topic, we aren't approaching it the same way. One resource is this forum, where we come for advice that often can be implemented within a few minutes of the incident. Most books are available on Amazon Prime and arrive in 2 days.

This is not the Torture Daycare. After his fit on the dining room floor recently--that was the turning point for all these behaviors--I started pulling him out immediately. But, as discussed on another thread with another care provider, we can't just hold one child in their own gated space for the entirety of the day. We bring them back into the community at the next transition.

This child is not responding to those consequences. We're caught in a loop of the negative behavior. Same behavior, same consequence, same behavior, same consequence. He's here for 9.5 hours so we transition through lots of different activities and he's able to participate in fewer and fewer of them instead of more and more.
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mommyneedsadayoff 11:20 AM 04-26-2019
I don't really over-analyze children's behavior. Barring any special needs, I stick with the basics.

If the answer is yes to all of those things, then I treat poor behavior with very little attention. Positive behavior gets all of my attention.

I am not a believer in getting down on a child's level when they are exhibiting poor behavior. I don't talk it out with them. A child calming down after a 15-minute temper tantrum is not exhibiting positive behavior. They will not get me at eye level and they will not get a positive reaction. They will get a very authoritative reaction. I will stand above them and let them know that their behavior was very poor and not what I expect from them.

When they show a positive behavior, like giving their toy to some other child, I will get down to their level and let them know that they are a good friend and that I'm sure their friend appreciates being allowed to play with that toy. They showed kindness and compassion for their friend and that's an awesome trait.

In this child's case, I would not even allow them the opportunity to free range at outdoor time. They would play right next to me, until they start exhibiting the behaviors that I expect from a three-year-old, almost four-year-old.

They are very aware of how their behavior affects other people. By less than 1 years old, children begin to learn how their actions determine a reaction. They begin to understand when they are hurting someone else by toddlerhood.

But if hurting someone else gives him a bunch of attention, he will continue to do it. If he can't exhibit behavior that is safe for all of the other children, then he doesn't get to be with all of the other children.

Instead of reacting to the behavior after it happens, I take the approach of preventing it from ever happening once I know it's become an issue. Once he can show a little more impulse control, he will get a little bit more free-range with his friends.

As far as being clingy at home, that may just be related to the fact that he is having long, tough days at work. You said that you do a lot of activities, and he may be feeling over-stimulated at daycare and may be feeling tired and vulnerable at home, which is a bad mix.

A lot of parents don't deal with poor behavior in as much of an intense way as we do, so he may be dealing with a lack of attention at home, possibly by being on screens, and is reacting poorly as a result. I obviously don't know what's happening at home, but if he is declining, then there is a chance that he is only getting attention from negative behavior at home. If he's doing great things, the parents have no reason to interact with him. So he may be exhibiting poor behavior, to get some attention from his parents.

It's just a theory and of course I have no clue if that's the truth. But I follow the opposite model. Poor behavior gets very little attention, and positive behavior gets all of my attention. Hope this helps.
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Tags:3 year old, bad behavior, contagious behavior, terminate - bad behavior
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