I'm So Upset... And Need Advice

I'm a registered user and logged out to protect my privacy.

I have a 9.5 month old preemie in my daycare and he's been here for about 5 months or so. He's a sweet little baby that looks and acts like a 5 or 6 month old. He is just starting to sit up, but still "tripods" occasionally. He has also recently started getting on both knees into a crawling position, but still can't crawl. Over the past 5 months I've noticed that he always favors his right leg more (his mom even thinks so). For example, when he lays on his back he usually only kicks his right leg.

So, yesterday he was my only kid other than my own toddler. DCB was on his tummy starting to get on his knees and my own child (weighs about 23 lbs) was walking backwards and fell on him. DCB cried... Which was nothing abnormal since he cries occasionally throughout the day. Anyways, I picked him up and soothed him. He seemed fine.... He sat in the Bumbo like normal, he ate, and even took a normal nap. After he woke up from his nap he needed a diaper change and as I changed his diaper I lifted his legs up to wipe his bottom and he cried. Not totally unusual for him to cry, but it was different. So I stripped him down and looked over his body around the area where my son fell thinking that maybe he got hurt? I didn't find anything abnormal, no redness, no swelling, no bruising... Nothing at all. I told the mom what happened when she got here and she said, "oh well, accidents happen"... And then she left.

Later last night I got a text and she took him to the ER... He has a fractured femur. :shocked: i called her immediately and she said they splinted him and will cast him today, I told her how upset I was and she said not to worry, and that she didn't blame me and accidents happen. Then she asked if I had liability insurance... Which I don't... I know I know, I was planning on getting it since there has been a few questions about it lately. And the she asked if I have homeowners insurance and I told her I did, but didn't think they cover my daycare without having an extended policy. We ended the conversation on good terms and she said dcb would not be at my house today because of the Dr's appt.

So my question to you guys is what do I do??? Has anyone ever experienced something like this? I called my lawyer friend who specializes in accidents and he said DO NOT assume liability and DO NOT offer anything.... If she's going to sue she's going to sue. I figured I could help pay medical bills and/ or offer free childcare, but who's to say that this preemie didn't have prior issues since he hardly ever used that leg anyways and my child just added to it??

I'm so upset and didn't sleep last night. I have no idea what to do or how to handle this. Any advice that you can share would be greatly appreciated.

[QualiTcare]

well, i don't think the fact that he didn't seem to use that leg much has anything at all to do with his femur being fractured. i mean, i don't think it was fractured BEFORE and suddenly became apparent because your child fell on it. it seems pretty obvious that being fell on caused the fracture IMO.

it's just my opinion, but i think you should pay the co-pay. it seems like you feel this way too since you mentioned it. of course i'm sure you don't WANT to - who does? they probably don't want to either. i think it's the right thing to do. if they were to sue, i'm sure they'd win - so i'd just bypass the whole mess and pay up.

btw - i wouldn't be surprised if the parents turn to the internet to find an answer also - something to think about if you think there might be any specific information they may be able to identify from your post. the last thing you'd want if they did sue is your admission in black and white.

[SandeeAR]

Sorry, accidents do happen. That is part of life. It could have happened with him at home playing with a cousin, etc.

If they have insurance, I would offer to pay for the part insurance doesn't pick up. If they don't have insurance, I would offer to split the bill with them. Most hospital bills can be paid out.

And get that Liability insurance TODAY!!!

[Blackcat31]

I am so sorry that happened in your care....

My friend who is a provider had a little guy hurt his leg while running outside and she called the mom and had mom bring him in and it turned out the little guy had a fractured femur as well, but in his case it had happened a few days earlier from a fall off the top of his bunk bed. The Dr. told the mom though that fractures in kids can be common and sometimes some kids just have soft/brittle bones. (???)

Anyways, I am glad the mom and you have a good enough relationship that she is not pointing fingers...Hope it all works out well for you...

[youretooloud]

I wonder if your homeowner's insurance will still cover this? Or at least the copay. I know that my own homeowners insurance will cover babysitting children if I have less than four children (not my own) in my care. And, only if you are not a licensed daycare.

If you are licensed, and/or have more than the four kids in your care, maybe you could either split the copay, or offer to pay the copays. I would be leery of paying the full copays, or admitting guilt, since this could possibly come back and destroy your entire future in this business. (there will be a lot of doctor's visits after this... so, it's not just one copay)

Most parents are not the "lets sue her and ruin their lives" type of people, but some are.

Just let her know that you are there and will help in any way they need. This doesn't have to have a bad ending.

This week, when you have a chance, research different home daycare insurance companies. Ask around and find out who has had good luck with their companies, and if you are unlicensed, most require you to be regulated. If you are not regulated or licensed, you probably won't be able to get a policy anywhere. Nothing will help with this incident, this is just for future issues. (hopefully there will be no other issues)

[Cat Herder]

Did they say what type of fracture it was by any chance?

[youretooloud]

Here is one link for childcare insurance. I haven't read through it yet, but it might be useful for you.

http://www.childcare-resource.com/insurance.htm

[mac60]

So sorry that happened to you on your watch. Accidents do happen.
My own son was injured at his daycare center when he was 3, I had to pay every penny of it. My own son was hurt during gym class when he was a senior and had over $400 of dental bills because of it, and I received a letter from the school that said they were not liable.

As had been said on this forum before....if your child gets hurt at school, in gym class, or during a sport, the school is not liable for the medical cost the parent is, and unless someone finds you negligent, which I don't think you are, then I would guess it is the parents responsibility.

Thank you all for your advice. I actually called my homeowners insurance and they do not cover this since I did not have the extension to my policy. I went ahead and added it today for future protection.

Catherder- she did mention the type of fracture, but I forgot what she called it. I do know that it is intact and didn't come through... What ever that means??


Michael- should I have this post deleted for my protection??? Please advise!!

Thank you all again. I recommend EVERYONE to get insurance... Just in case!

[cillybean83]

i'm not licensed, so my insurance covers my dck's or anyone else who is injured in my home or on my property

if you are licensed i would suggest calling your licensor (sp?), explaining the situation...

the boys leg was not broken before your child fell on him, "favoring" and breaking the largest bone in the body are way, way different. It was just an accident, don't beat yourself up over it, but ignore this lawyer friend of yours, this isn't going to be an outrageous million dollar case, write up paperwork that states what happened, what the bill was, pay the parents out of pocket costs, state that cashing your check for the medical costs is the parents acceptance that issue is final, and they can no longer seek any further monetary gains from the incident. Sign and notarize, have parents do the same, and that should be the end of it

[cillybean83]

compound fractures come through skin, he may have had a hairline

[daycare]

so sorry to hear what yoiu are going through... Please dont stress and dont blame yourself.

When my children get hurt at school, the school assumes NO part of helping to financially resolve the matter.

I am not sure what you have in your contract. I have that if it is a supervised accident that I will not assume responsibility, however, if it were something that happened due to my neglect, then I will have to pay for it.

I think that this is only fair. I feel that as a parent this is part of rasing your child...providing proper insurance and having to deal with the fact that these things will happen throughout their life.

I would not offer anything other than a true apology, which it sounds like you have already done...

I hope that your day gets better, don't stress to much it was not your fault and you did everything right... You told the mom and you cared for the child.

Just so you know, it is possible that the child had an already existing small fracture and your son falling on it further injured the already existing fracture.

I had this happen to me as a teenager.... my leg was fractured with a hairline for a very long time and I was not aware of it... other than slight pain, I did not know.. My sister and I were playing around in the pool and my sister landed on my leg and split the already existing fracture even more....

hang in there...

[QualiTcare]

Originally Posted by cillybean83

i'm not licensed, so my insurance covers my dck's or anyone else who is injured in my home or on my property

if you are licensed i would suggest calling your licensor (sp?), explaining the situation...

the boys leg was not broken before your child fell on him, "favoring" and breaking the largest bone in the body are way, way different. It was just an accident, don't beat yourself up over it, but ignore this lawyer friend of yours, this isn't going to be an outrageous million dollar case, write up paperwork that states what happened, what the bill was, pay the parents out of pocket costs, state that cashing your check for the medical costs is the parents acceptance that issue is final, and they can no longer seek any further monetary gains from the incident. Sign and notarize, have parents do the same, and that should be the end of it

i agree - if the parents are reasonable (and it sounds like they are) i'm sure they would be satisfied with being reimbursed the co-pay vs. having the entire bill placed on the provider. i would write on the check's memo line "paid in full." it probably won't get ugly, but if it ever did - a judge will see that and know that the parents agreed it was the final agreed upon amount by cashing it.

for the record - even though it was an accident, a childcare provider whose job it is to keep kids safe from injuries can EASILY be found negligent. school and childcare are totally different animals. the fact that this infant had a fractured femur and the parents weren't notified immediately and care wasn't sought wouldn't be a good thing if it got ugly. not contacting the parents or seeking medical advice COULD be considered negligent. BUT there's no reason for it to go that far.

[jen]

I had two daycare boys, both schoolagers wrestling around on the floor...I told them to stop, not once, but 3 times. They stopped, and I noticed the younger boy was favoring his left arm. Asked if he was OK...yep, yep. Mom notices that he doesn't want to lift his arm to get his pj's on....took him in, broken collar bone. He didn't want to tell me he got hurt because I had just finished telling him to stop wrestling around. I apologized that he was hurt, but I didn't offer to pay anything. Everybody was fine, had the family for years.

In your situation, because the parent has already asked you about homeowners, I would suspect that they may ask you to cover the deductible or co-pay. Bear in mind, before you go offering to pay, that you (I don't think) know how much their deductible is and it could be ALOT. If they do ask you, and it is a reasonable amount, I would pay it. As hard as it is to do nothing, that is exactly what I would suggest you do for now.

Two more things: Try to remember this. You are not negligent, you aren't going to jail or losing your house. There was an accident, no one was seriously hurt (as in requiring a hospital stay) and as stressful as it is now, this too shall pass. Try to remain calm and professional...friendly too, because you don't want to antagonize them either.

The 2nd thing...don't take legal advice from a bunch of people on the internet...take legal advice from a lawyer.

[cillybean83]

i know schools don't assume legal responsibility, but also schools employ lots and lots of attorneys, so you never know what a school has agreed to behind closed doors, made deals, etc...even in a classroom if you can prove negligence, the school might not be sued, but the teacher could be. When I was in 10th grade, at an inner city chicago public school, I had a teacher who frequently left the classroom to talk to her boyfriend who was forever coming to the school to visit, a couple of kids were goofing off, one was leaning out the window to talk to a kid outside, another kid bumped him and out the window he went. The teacher got sued, the school got sued, the city got sued, EVERYBODY got sued...and the kid got a LOT of money, and this was a 16 year old who KNEW better, but negligence was involved

I'm not saying you were negligent, I don't think you were, but people like to twist and bend things to their liking, and parents who might seem great, may change when they see dollar signs...this boy can't defend you, and say "of course she was watching me" but admitted to them that your own kid, not a daycare kid, fell on their boy...and the wheels in their heads may start turning, and you don't want that, i'm not an attorney but I did study law, and if the amount of money it would take to squash this is minimal, i would offer it before they asked for it, write the check and be done before they even consider wanting more...that's just me

[QualiTcare]

Originally Posted by cillybean83

i know schools don't assume legal responsibility, but also schools employ lots and lots of attorneys, so you never know what a school has agreed to behind closed doors, made deals, etc...even in a classroom if you can prove negligence, the school might not be sued, but the teacher could be. When I was in 10th grade, at an inner city chicago public school, I had a teacher who frequently left the classroom to talk to her boyfriend who was forever coming to the school to visit, a couple of kids were goofing off, one was leaning out the window to talk to a kid outside, another kid bumped him and out the window he went. The teacher got sued, the school got sued, the city got sued, EVERYBODY got sued...and the kid got a LOT of money, and this was a 16 year old who KNEW better, but negligence was involved

I'm not saying you were negligent, I don't think you were, but people like to twist and bend things to their liking, and parents who might seem great, may change when they see dollar signs...this boy can't defend you, and say "of course she was watching me" but admitted to them that your own kid, not a daycare kid, fell on their boy...and the wheels in their heads may start turning, and you don't want that, i'm not an attorney but I did study law, and if the amount of money it would take to squash this is minimal, i would offer it before they asked for it, write the check and be done before they even consider wanting more...that's just me

yup - perfect example. even if she had watched the incident she probably would've been sued because "the window was open" or she "LET him hang around the window."

the concept of getting sued because of an "attractive nuisance" seems silly to me, but it happens all the time. why should people HAVE to have fences around THEIR pool on THEIR property because someone else's child (who would have to be unsupervised btw) will be attracted to it and fall in? an old professor told us about a lawsuit at a school where a janitor left a mop bucket/mop out in the hallway and to a 5 year old that was an "attractive nuisance" and the kid got hurt. guess who won?

[MyAngels]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm a registered user and logged out to protect my privacy.

I have a 9.5 month old preemie in my daycare and he's been here for about 5 months or so. He's a sweet little baby that looks and acts like a 5 or 6 month old. He is just starting to sit up, but still "tripods" occasionally. He has also recently started getting on both knees into a crawling position, but still can't crawl. Over the past 5 months I've noticed that he always favors his right leg more (his mom even thinks so). For example, when he lays on his back he usually only kicks his right leg.

So, yesterday he was my only kid other than my own toddler. DCB was on his tummy starting to get on his knees and my own child (weighs about 23 lbs) was walking backwards and fell on him. DCB cried... Which was nothing abnormal since he cries occasionally throughout the day. Anyways, I picked him up and soothed him. He seemed fine.... He sat in the Bumbo like normal, he ate, and even took a normal nap. After he woke up from his nap he needed a diaper change and as I changed his diaper I lifted his legs up to wipe his bottom and he cried. Not totally unusual for him to cry, but it was different. So I stripped him down and looked over his body around the area where my son fell thinking that maybe he got hurt? I didn't find anything abnormal, no redness, no swelling, no bruising... Nothing at all. I told the mom what happened when she got here and she said, "oh well, accidents happen"... And then she left.

Later last night I got a text and she took him to the ER... He has a fractured femur. :shocked: i called her immediately and she said they splinted him and will cast him today, I told her how upset I was and she said not to worry, and that she didn't blame me and accidents happen. Then she asked if I had liability insurance... Which I don't... I know I know, I was planning on getting it since there has been a few questions about it lately. And the she asked if I have homeowners insurance and I told her I did, but didn't think they cover my daycare without having an extended policy. We ended the conversation on good terms and she said dcb would not be at my house today because of the Dr's appt.

So my question to you guys is what do I do??? Has anyone ever experienced something like this? I called my lawyer friend who specializes in accidents and he said DO NOT assume liability and DO NOT offer anything.... If she's going to sue she's going to sue. I figured I could help pay medical bills and/ or offer free childcare, but who's to say that this preemie didn't have prior issues since he hardly ever used that leg anyways and my child just added to it??

I'm so upset and didn't sleep last night. I have no idea what to do or how to handle this. Any advice that you can share would be greatly appreciated.

Even though it goes against our human nature as caregivers, you should really follow your attorney's advice regarding assuming any type of responsiblity or offering any kind of payment. Unfortunately, in our litigious society, we are all open to being sued for any variety of things. Hopefully, once she realizes that there is no insurance to make a claim against, she will not pursue this any further.

[nikia]

I didnt read all the post so forgive me if I repeat anything that has been said,

I had a little one break their toe here after my kitchen chair fell on it, this chair is one of those solid high bar chairs very heavy. She was climbing down and it tipped over and hit her toe across the toenail and right below it. The toenail was bruised and there was a cut on her cuticle. I tried to grab the chair and just couldnt get to it I felt horrible. I place the child on the counter and looked at her toe when I applied pressure to the toenail the bruise would bleed out from the small cut and she would stop crying, she played and walked on it, so I didnt call mom, just made a report. When she got picked up I explained everything and showed them, well as the night went on she was nursing it quite a bit so mom took to the er and sure enough she had broken it. I had no idea since she played and walked on it. I knew it was sore from the bruise but really had no idea it was broke. Mom called to let me know, I never offered to pay for it but would have had they asked. They didnt ask if I had insurance either so it never crossed their minds, they knew it was a freak accident as is yours.

So my point after my novel is take a deep breath, its okay things happen about the money part you should listen to a lawyer, but if it was me I would pay the bill after their health insurance picked up their part, had my parents asked I would have paid the bill but thats just me feeling guilty that it happened on my watch.

And one more side note, the mom now laughs about the toe because she knows I cry whenever I think about it. Their is no bad feelings, nothing at all just know you are not alone.

[missnikki]

Might be a 'greenstick' fracture...kids have soft, malleable bones and they break/ fracture differently than brittle old bones. Think of twigs, that's probably where the name comes from.

Poor little guy, honest accident...I'm sorry this had to be the way to find out how to add that insurance to your policy.

I agree w/ pp, don't admit anything, don't offer anything...see what mom says first, and seek legal counsel if you think you are going to fight a battle.

[Cat Herder]

Any updates? Is everything ok??

[countrymom]

just curious, if mom noticed the no weight baring on the leg, why didn't she bring him in to the dr. I would be worried that something is wrong.

[SilverSabre25]

Sucks that this happened on your watch (and as a result of your child) and I really hope the baby is okay and the parents don't get really upset at you since it WAS an accident.

I do kind of wonder though, since he favored that leg anyway, if perhaps there was something that was slightly wrong with it already (undiagnosed birth trauma or something) that made it more likely to break under an impact like that. Not that it changes anything, but it is something I wonder.

[momofboys]

Originally Posted by SilverSabre25

Sucks that this happened on your watch (and as a result of your child) and I really hope the baby is okay and the parents don't get really upset at you since it WAS an accident.

I do kind of wonder though, since he favored that leg anyway, if perhaps there was something that was slightly wrong with it already (undiagnosed birth trauma or something) that made it more likely to break under an impact like that. Not that it changes anything, but it is something I wonder.

ITA w/this. I think there was a problem prior to the break that possibly made the break easier to happen.

[Crystal]

Any updates?

[Michael]

I just read the beginning of this thread. I am no lawyer and this is just my opinion. I would worry that if you assume liability, AND this child had a prior condition with that leg, it could be a long term issue for you. I would ask your lawyer friend again on this point.

Originally Posted by cillybean83

i'm not licensed, so my insurance covers my dck's or anyone else who is injured in my home or on my property

if you are licensed i would suggest calling your licensor (sp?), explaining the situation...

the boys leg was not broken before your child fell on him, "favoring" and breaking the largest bone in the body are way, way different. It was just an accident, don't beat yourself up over it, but ignore this lawyer friend of yours, this isn't going to be an outrageous million dollar case, write up paperwork that states what happened, what the bill was, pay the parents out of pocket costs, state that cashing your check for the medical costs is the parents acceptance that issue is final, and they can no longer seek any further monetary gains from the incident. Sign and notarize, have parents do the same, and that should be the end of it

Great advice!

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by Michael

I just read the beginning of this thread. I am no lawyer and this is just my opinion. I would worry that if you assume liability, AND this child had a prior condition with that leg, it could be a long term issue for you. I would ask your lawyer friend again on this point.

I agree with this.

It's not just the parents co-pay that needs to be considered. The insurance company can sue you too. If you accept liability for one portion, it may put you at risk for the other portion.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I'm a registered user and logged out to protect my privacy.

So my question to you guys is what do I do??? Has anyone ever experienced something like this? I called my lawyer friend who specializes in accidents and he said DO NOT assume liability and DO NOT offer anything.... If she's going to sue she's going to sue. I figured I could help pay medical bills and/ or offer free childcare, but who's to say that this preemie didn't have prior issues since he hardly ever used that leg anyways and my child just added to it??

I'm so upset and didn't sleep last night. I have no idea what to do or how to handle this. Any advice that you can share would be greatly appreciated.

ok one it is your problem 110%. I only say ths becaus my son we though had cp because he never used one side f his body. We got him in therapy and is ding great. he is 16 months and still not walking. My son is behind like that little boy. His little leg is a totally diff issue. please take responsibilty

[MyAngels]

Originally Posted by momatheart

Great advice!

Sorry to say, but cillybean's advice was not correct. A parent cannot sign away their children's rights. As I said before, the OP should follow the advice of her attorney regarding accepting any liability in this situation. Because she does not have insurance, she needs to protect not only herself, but her family as well. Lawyers and insurance companies can, and will, go after any asset they can find if they are able to establish any liability at all. That includes all bank accounts, real estate, etc.

Hopefully this will never reach that point, and I doubt that it will, but if push comes to shove, she needs to protect not only herself but her family as well.

[QualiTcare]

i would love to hear what happened with this.

[cillybean83]

like I said, I'm not an attorney, Im just saying what I would do in the situation. Sure, an insurance company can, and will go after you and sue you...if it's worth their time and resources. A hairline fracture on a leg is not. If the child had fallen and hit his head and was facing long term care for mental retardation, or was put into a vegetative state, then maybe, but a broken leg is, in the grand scheme of things, nothing. At most the entire bill will be a couple thousand dollars, and I doubt it will be that much because they didn't need to operate. Paying the copay and making the parent sign that paying the copay is the end of their financial contribution to the matter isn't the parent "signing away the rights of their child"...it's a gesture to show that the provider is to do her part since she didn't have the necessary insurance coverage that would have paid for it, and honestly, even if she did have insurance, this procedure is so minor that it might be cheaper to not even notify the insurance and just pay out of pocket...the deductible alone could have easily been around the cost of the doctor bill.

Anyhoo...I worked in the legal field and was pre-law so I know some about this stuff but Im no expert...but this isn't going to be a serious issue for the OP no matter how she handles it, worst case scenario the parents want her to foot the bill, it won't be a massive bill, and court would probably cost more than the lil guys cast did

[QualiTcare]

lol - i've been known to say "you can't sign away your child's rights" but i was referring to the fact that no matter what you sign, if the LAW says differently than the "contract" the contract isn't valid- even if it were signed.

meaning - if the law says an owner IS responsible for their dog biting a child....the parent signing a paper saying "it's okay if your dog bites" won't hold any weight aka "you can't sign away your child's rights."

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by cillybean83

like I said, I'm not an attorney, Im just saying what I would do in the situation. Sure, an insurance company can, and will go after you and sue you...if it's worth their time and resources. A hairline fracture on a leg is not. If the child had fallen and hit his head and was facing long term care for mental retardation, or was put into a vegetative state, then maybe, but a broken leg is, in the grand scheme of things, nothing. At most the entire bill will be a couple thousand dollars, and I doubt it will be that much because they didn't need to operate. Paying the copay and making the parent sign that paying the copay is the end of their financial contribution to the matter isn't the parent "signing away the rights of their child"...it's a gesture to show that the provider is to do her part since she didn't have the necessary insurance coverage that would have paid for it, and honestly, even if she did have insurance, this procedure is so minor that it might be cheaper to not even notify the insurance and just pay out of pocket...the deductible alone could have easily been around the cost of the doctor bill.

Anyhoo...I worked in the legal field and was pre-law so I know some about this stuff but Im no expert...but this isn't going to be a serious issue for the OP no matter how she handles it, worst case scenario the parents want her to foot the bill, it won't be a massive bill, and court would probably cost more than the lil guys cast did

I don't agree with this at all.

There could be THOUSANDS of dollars of doctor and hospital bills on this. Getting him seen, xrayed, and casted is PART of this. He will have many follow up apointments,, physical therapy, and procedures.

The parent can't sign away the insurance company's stake in this. If she agrees to pay their portion why shouldn't the insurance company have the ability to reclaim their portion of it.

This is another example of "parents can't give you permission to do the wrong thing". Other people have stake in the child. The insurers, society, child protective, and whatever agency regulates child care in your state.

The parents can't give her permission to just pay their co-pay and waive her responsibility to all the other entities that have a stake in the child. My guess is that child protective is actively involved in this as we speak. A leg fracture to a non mobile infant is something they WILL investigate. The fact that the provider stated her child did this by accident is a HUGE red flag in child abuse investigations.

This is a VERY serious situation that is riddled with some very complex aspects of child care and child care business.

[MyAngels]

Originally Posted by nannyde

I don't agree with this at all.

There could be THOUSANDS of dollars of doctor and hospital bills on this. Getting him seen, xrayed, and casted is PART of this. He will have many follow up apointments,, physical therapy, and procedures.

The parent can't sign away the insurance company's stake in this. If she agrees to pay their portion why shouldn't the insurance company have the ability to reclaim their portion of it.

This is another example of "parents can't give you permission to do the wrong thing". Other people have stake in the child. The insurers, society, child protective, and whatever agency regulates child care in your state.

The parents can't give her permission to just pay their co-pay and waive her responsibility to all the other entities that have a stake in the child. My guess is that child protective is actively involved in this as we speak. A leg fracture to a non mobile infant is something they WILL investigate. The fact that the provider stated her child did this by accident is a HUGE red flag in child abuse investigations.

This is a VERY serious situation that is riddled with some very complex aspects of child care and child care business.

This is absolutely correct. Just speaking to the insurance aspect of this - my son recently broke his finger. The amount that our insurance company has paid to date for treatment of a simple break: over $8,000. He's not done being treated yet, so there will be more. Within days of the first claim submitted to them, they contacted us asking who else is responsible for this accident? They want to know, was he on the job, at someone else's home, at school? They are trying to figure out if they can subrogate this claim. I would imagine this child's insurance carrier will be doing the same thing.

[SandeeAR]

I missed the part about the lawyer the first go around, sorry. I have changed my opinion after rereading the post. Yes listen to the lawyer!
Sorry!

Originally Posted by MyAngels

Sorry to say, but cillybean's advice was not correct. A parent cannot sign away their children's rights. As I said before, the OP should follow the advice of her attorney regarding accepting any liability in this situation. Because she does not have insurance, she needs to protect not only herself, but her family as well. Lawyers and insurance companies can, and will, go after any asset they can find if they are able to establish any liability at all. That includes all bank accounts, real estate, etc.

Hopefully this will never reach that point, and I doubt that it will, but if push comes to shove, she needs to protect not only herself but her family as well.

Very good point thanks.

I have noticed as well in years of Daycare that even the wonderful parents can switch attitudes on you. Just when you think they won't BAM they come at a different angle. Sad but true. It does happen.

Thanks MYANGLES for bringing this to my attention.

[JenNJ]

She needs to listen to her LAWYER, in her own state. Working in law and being a lawyer who has passed the bar and practiced law pertaining to the subject matter are different ball games. Please don't follow advice on an internet forum. Go to free consultations of lawyers in your area. I wish you luck.

[JenNJ]

Also cillybean, being pre-law is not the same as being a lawyer. Just as you know nothing about this child's break or how expensive care and treatment will be, I'm sure you don't know liability laws in her state well enough to offer her legal advice. So unless you ARE a Dr or a lawyer, please don't pass your word off as that of a true professional. Its irresponsible.

[cillybean83]

again, not saying what she should do, just saying what i would do...obviously this should just be a discussion on the site, not a way of getting around paying for REAL legal advice...

i should also say that my opinion is based on ALL parties involved agreeing that this was an honest accident. The hairy issue with this scenario is that if anyone decides to pursue the matter there are going to be a lot of "whys" involved, the biggest one being why was a non-mobile child laid on the floor in a room with a toddler walked around? Whether is was or wasn't, that opens a big can of "negligance" worms...and mom and dad might be seeing dollar signs right about now.

[cillybean83]

jen i specifically said it was my opinion, that i wasn't a lawyer or an expert, it was what i would do....so why you've decided to single me out like i'm telling her what to do is a bit confusing...she asked for advice/opinions...thats my 2 cents and thats about all its worth

[jen]

Originally Posted by cillybean83

jen i specifically said it was my opinion, that i wasn't a lawyer or an expert, it was what i would do....so why you've decided to single me out like i'm telling her what to do is a bit confusing...she asked for advice/opinions...thats my 2 cents and thats about all its worth

LOL! There is JenNJ and jen! I thought you were talking to me for a minute!

[cillybean83]

oops sorry! I'm not trying to come off as hateful or anything! I hope it isn't being taken that way! I was just giving my opinion and the only advice I have is what I would personally do, I'm worried that someone might take my opinion as legal advice, and I didn't mean it in ANY such way, the only thing my limited knowledge of the legal system has ever been good for is drawing up paperwork, and that has saved on legal fees when that was all I needed from a lawyer, but as far as something being a continuing issue, and one might say this and the other might say that, and all that stuff...yeah...you all are right, I don't know anything about that mess!

[jen]

Originally Posted by cillybean83

oops sorry! I'm not trying to come off as hateful or anything! I hope it isn't being taken that way! I was just giving my opinion and the only advice I have is what I would personally do, I'm worried that someone might take my opinion as legal advice, and I didn't mean it in ANY such way, the only thing my limited knowledge of the legal system has ever been good for is drawing up paperwork, and that has saved on legal fees when that was all I needed from a lawyer, but as far as something being a continuing issue, and one might say this and the other might say that, and all that stuff...yeah...you all are right, I don't know anything about that mess!

No worries, I'm often confused...

[daycare]

Originally Posted by cillybean83

oops sorry! I'm not trying to come off as hateful or anything! I hope it isn't being taken that way! I was just giving my opinion and the only advice I have is what I would personally do, I'm worried that someone might take my opinion as legal advice, and I didn't mean it in ANY such way, the only thing my limited knowledge of the legal system has ever been good for is drawing up paperwork, and that has saved on legal fees when that was all I needed from a lawyer, but as far as something being a continuing issue, and one might say this and the other might say that, and all that stuff...yeah...you all are right, I don't know anything about that mess!

I'd pay at least 10cents....lol jk I had to brighten the load....
and yes I am confused too with the jen and jennj.... lol I have to pay better attention

[QualiTcare]

Originally Posted by MyAngels

This is absolutely correct. Just speaking to the insurance aspect of this - my son recently broke his finger. The amount that our insurance company has paid to date for treatment of a simple break: over $8,000. He's not done being treated yet, so there will be more. Within days of the first claim submitted to them, they contacted us asking who else is responsible for this accident? They want to know, was he on the job, at someone else's home, at school? They are trying to figure out if they can subrogate this claim. I would imagine this child's insurance carrier will be doing the same thing.

i bet you're right.

[jen]

Updates?????????

[Crystal]

I don't know about other states, but in Ca. we have to report any "unusual incident" to our licensing body or DHHS. They will then place it in your file and if they feel it is warranted will follow up with an investigation. The physician also reports it if the parent claims the injury occurred at daycare, so that the provider cannot avoid reporting it herself. This information would then be shared with any agency that has a "need to know" So, in the end, it may not really matter what the parent feels about the incident, it will matter what the law dictates about the incident.

[jen]

Originally Posted by Crystal

I don't know about other states, but in Ca. we have to report any "unusual incident" to our licensing body or DHHS. They will then place it in your file and if they feel it is warranted will follow up with an investigation. The physician also reports it if the parent claims the injury occurred at daycare, so that the provider cannot avoid reporting it herself. This information would then be shared with any agency that has a "need to know" So, in the end, it may not really matter what the parent feels about the incident, it will matter what the law dictates about the incident.

Crystal, "unusual" instances in the context you're discussing, is in the event that there could be some abuse or neglect. That would be considered a criminal case. This discussion isn't about a criminal case, we're talking about a civil case regarding the costs of medical care. Huge difference, and it would be up to the parents or the insurance company to pursue. If it was a criminal case we'd be talking about neglect or abuse, and "the law" would come in to play.

Are you trying to frighten the op?

[Crystal]

Originally Posted by jen

Crystal, "unusual" instances in the context you're discussing, is in the event that there could be some abuse or neglect. That would be considered a criminal case. This discussion isn't about a criminal case, we're talking about a civil case regarding the costs of medical care. Huge difference, and it would be up to the parents or the insurance company to pursue. If it was a criminal case we'd be talking about neglect or abuse, and "the law" would come in to play.

Are you trying to frighten the op?

Not here. ANY incident that occurs at daycare that requires the child to visit the doctor MUST be reported to licensing within 1 working day via telephone and then followed up with a written report within 7 days.Of course I am not trying to frighten the OP. That's just silly

http://www.ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/CCUpdate0409.pdf It's on page three.

[QualiTcare]

Originally Posted by Crystal

Not here. ANY incident that occurs at daycare that requires the child to visit the doctor MUST be reported to licensing withing 36 hours.

Of course I am not trying to frighten the OP. That's just silly

http://www.ccld.ca.gov/res/pdf/CCUpdate0409.pdf It's on page three.

i agree it makes complete sense for something like a broken bone to be reported. even IF a broken bone were the result of abuse, it's not like a provider would say that. they would try the "something fell on them" excuse.

[jen]

Originally Posted by Crystal

Not here. ANY incident that occurs at daycare that requires the child to visit the doctor MUST be reported to licensing withing 36 hours.

Of course I am not trying to frighten the OP. That's just silly

Yes, the licensing rule is the same here. However, surely you realize that it is in place to ferret out unsafe conditions, neglect, or abuse. Unless we are talking about abuse or neglect, it isn't going to be a criminial matter. This was simply an accident.

What "law" are you talking about? What decisions are you implying they are going to make? We were talking about medical costs, what are you talking about? Outside of the insurance company or the parent, who do think will be making decisions and what decisions are you referring to?

[kendallina]

Originally Posted by Crystal

I don't know about other states, but in Ca. we have to report any "unusual incident" to our licensing body or DHHS. They will then place it in your file and if they feel it is warranted will follow up with an investigation. The physician also reports it if the parent claims the injury occurred at daycare, so that the provider cannot avoid reporting it herself. This information would then be shared with any agency that has a "need to know" So, in the end, it may not really matter what the parent feels about the incident, it will matter what the law dictates about the incident.

Yes, this is absolutely correct. When I worked in Cali we had to report anything unusual to licensing, including a child injured in our care who had to be seen by a doctor. I had to do this a few times and never got investigated because of it, but it's important to let licensing know yourself because if they find out from someone else then it could look suspicious. Not sure where OP is from and if there is a similar reg in her state...

[Crystal]

Originally Posted by jen

Yes, the licensing rule is the same here. However, surely you realize that it is in place to ferret out unsafe conditions, neglect, or abuse. Unless we are talking about abuse or neglect, it isn't going to be a criminial matter. This was simply an accident.

What "law" are you talking about? What decisions are you implying they are going to make? We were talking about medical costs, what are you talking about? Outside of the insurance company or the parent, who do think will be making decisions and what decisions are you referring to?

I agree it was an accident. Never said it wasn't. I never said it was going to be a criminal matter. I simply stated what is required in our state, and I would be required to report this incident. I think the OP would be wise to do the same.

Licensing, if you read the regs, states that they will decide if the incident warrants an investigation, and upon doing so will deem if there is a need for the provider to recieve citation. It also states failing to report the incident would result in a citation - which is why I mentioned the doctor's here report it to licensing as well.

And, getting back to insurance....lciensing would have to share the info with insurance if insurance were to contact them regarding the matter.

I didn't know I was limited to only talking about the insurance matter here

[jen]

Originally Posted by Crystal

I agree it was an accident. Never said it wasn't. I never said it was going to be a criminal matter. I simply stated what is required in our state, and I would be required to report this incident. I think the OP would be wise to do the same.

Licensing, if you read the regs, states that they will decide if the incident warrants an investigation, and upon doing so will deem if there is a need for the provider to recieve citation. It also states failing to report the incident would result in a citation - which is why I mentioned the doctor's here report it to licensing as well.

And, getting back to insurance....lciensing would have to share the info with insurance if insurance were to contact them regarding the matter.

I didn't know I was limited to only talking about the insurance matter here

I may have missed something, but I don't see where the OP has indicated anything about whether or not she contacted licensing. Did she say that she didn't or is that just your assumption?

I'm not going to go re-read the whole thread, but was anyone even discussing citations or contacting licensing?

Here's what I see...we were talking simply about liability in terms of insurance. You chimed in with well, she has to report it, and the dr. will report it, and it may not be up either the parent or the insurance company, but the law!

You don't think that sounds a bit intimidating (not to mention off-topic) well, then so be it. I clearly misunderstood your motivations.

OP, it was an accident. Listen to you lawyer, contact licensing if you haven't already, and don't stress yourself unneccessarily.

[Crystal]

Jen, my point was, licensing, if it has to be reported, (I didn't say she was required to report it, I said In Ca. I would be required to report it) will decide if the provider was negligent or not....not the parent, not the insurance company. If there was negligence, and if insurance contacted the licensing body and recieved that info from them, they would have the legal ability to pursue reimbursement of costs from the provider.

I suppose I should have then added that "she should listen to her attorney"

Not sure WHY my input matters so much to you, or WHY you feel the need to create an issue of it. Perhaps I should have ASKED the OP if she has to report it, instead of saying that I would be required to....would that have made you feel better?

[Crystal]

I'm not going to go re-read the whole thread, but was anyone even discussing citations or contacting licensing?

Yes, there was a reference to that. As well as several references to "negligence" which is what would 1. Cause an investigation and 2. Result in the parent/insurance being able to seek payment from provider.

I think it is always wise to report to licesing any "unusual incident" even if not required to. More often than not, that is what goes to prove you were not negligent.

Again, I don't think this was negligence, but an unfortunate accident.....

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by Crystal

I don't know about other states, but in Ca. we have to report any "unusual incident" to our licensing body or DHHS. They will then place it in your file and if they feel it is warranted will follow up with an investigation. The physician also reports it if the parent claims the injury occurred at daycare, so that the provider cannot avoid reporting it herself. This information would then be shared with any agency that has a "need to know" So, in the end, it may not really matter what the parent feels about the incident, it will matter what the law dictates about the incident.

I agree with this.

Whether your licensing requires it or not you SHOUD contact them.

I have a feeling people aren't really understanding the gravity of this situation. This is a bad deal. Any imobile infant that gets a bone break is a HUGE red flag to everyone.

With all accidents that result in injury it is our moral and ethical responsibility to co-operate with and TELL the investigators what happened. It's a risk that they would deem this as negligence or abuse but the TRUTH to them in a timely manner will go a long way.

[jen]

Can someone point out where the OP indicated that she didn't contact licensing? I understand the gravity of it, however, why are you under the assumption that she didn't follow proper procedure? That is what I am taking issue with...the assumption that the provider did something "wrong" that she has in some way failed to respond to the situation in the appropriate manner.

Of course she needs to report it, but why do think she didn't?

[Blackcat31]

Originally Posted by jen

Can someone point out where the OP indicated that she didn't contact licensing? I understand the gravity of it, however, why are you under the assumption that she didn't follow proper procedure? That is what I am taking issue with...the assumption that the provider did something "wrong" that she has in some way failed to respond to the situation in the appropriate manner.

Of course she needs to report it, but why do think she didn't?

I do NOT want to get in the middle of the obvious tension going on here, but from another viewpoint; I cannot point out where anyone indicated that the OP did not contact licensing, as a matter of fact she does not indicate anywhere that she did either, but I read it as the OP asked this forum for advice on what to do and what procedures to follow...so I'm thinking that if I were in this situation, I would have contacted licensing and my licensor would have informed me of what the next steps were and how these types of situations play out... I would assume that is what part of the licensors job is.

So in that theory, the OP would have stated, something about what her licensor said to do since she has told us what the dcm and the attorney friend said to do....wouldn't it make sense then that she would have mentioned her licensors advice too then had she reported it?


So in my take on it, she did not contact licensing and a pp was right to bring it up because it is something that should have been done.....

Any updates on what has happened????

[nannyde]

Originally Posted by jen

Can someone point out where the OP indicated that she didn't contact licensing? I understand the gravity of it, however, why are you under the assumption that she didn't follow proper procedure? That is what I am taking issue with...the assumption that the provider did something "wrong" that she has in some way failed to respond to the situation in the appropriate manner.

Of course she needs to report it, but why do think she didn't?

I don't think she did or didn't. I'm saying she should. That's what Crystal is saying.

[Cat Herder]

Jen,

Even if she did report it, this would be investigated by local authorities...

The ER Doc is required to report these kinds of injuries. A femur fracture in an non-ambulatory infant is an automatic investigation. This is especially dependant on the type of fracture.

I think that is what everyone is alluding to.

Alot of us are waiting for an update..... I, myself, am beginning to fear the worst because of the silence.

Op, please, please update...

[cillybean83]

I was thinking the same thing cat...the silence is a bit disturbing! I don't think anyone wants to scare the OP or hurt her feelings, but like others have said, the fact that this was a baby with a broken leg, that's a red flag. Of course accidents happen, but the doctor, the insurance, the authorities, and even to a certain extent the parents don't KNOW the OP well enough to just say "oh she would NEVER do something to endanger this baby...so we don't need to investigate"....kwim?

My only question that has a red flag attached is...why was a baby who cant even crawl left on the floor with a toddler running around...that's probably what everyone else is going to be asking too...

[jen]

Originally Posted by Catherder

Jen,

Even if she did report it, this would be investigated by local authorities...

The ER Doc is required to report these kinds of injuries. A femur fracture in an non-ambulatory infant is an automatic investigation. This is especially dependant on the type of fracture.

I think that is what everyone is alluding to.

Alot of us are waiting for an update..... I, myself, am beginning to fear the worst because of the silence.

Op, please, please update...

I hear ya' Cat, and I totally get that licesing is going to look in to it.

However, having been through this with a kid with a broken collar bone, it just wasn't this big scary thing that it is being made out to be here. I reported it, licensing had me tell them about it, they spoke to the parent, and that was it. An accident, they happen...they didn't even come to the house.

I'm not saying that this provider will have the same experience, what I am saying is that the sky is not falling. When the physician makes his report, he will indicate if there are any signs of abuse. They will be checking for old fractures, suspicious bruising, etc. In the absence of these types of things, his report will indicate that no signs of abuse or negligence are present, which will likely be satisfactory for licesing.

Personally, I think it is important to keep a cool head in these instances. Do the right things and move forward. Worrying about things that haven't happened, and probably won't, is a waste of enegery.

It is enough to say, "Please make sure you cover yourself. Always report, it looks better should it come up later." I don't see the point in anything beyond that, except to making people nervous and scared.

[jen]

I could be wrong, I'm just guessing, but perhaps her lawyer told her NOT to post anything else about the incident on an open forum...

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by jen

I hear ya' Cat, and I totally get that licesing is going to look in to it.

However, having been through this with a kid with a broken collar bone, it just wasn't this big scary thing that it is being made out to be here. I reported it, licensing had me tell them about it, they spoke to the parent, and that was it. An accident, they happen...they didn't even come to the house.

I'm not saying that this provider will have the same experience, what I am saying is that the sky is not falling. When the physician makes his report, he will indicate if there are any signs of abuse. They will be checking for old fractures, suspicious bruising, etc. In the absence of these types of things, his report will indicate that no signs of abuse or negligence are present, which will likely be satisfactory for licesing.

Personally, I think it is important to keep a cool head in these instances. Do the right things and move forward. Worrying about things that haven't happened, and probably won't, is a waste of enegery.

It is enough to say, "Please make sure you cover yourself. Always report, it looks better should it come up later." I don't see the point in anything beyond that, except to making people nervous and scared.

Normally I would agree, but this is the about the fact that it is a femur fracture on a non-ambulatory infant.....

Not a collar bone, forearm, finger, tooth or a toe....

This is one of those "RED FLAG" INJURIES....

This is straight from Child Abuse recognition training the registered providers are required to take here:

Femoral fractures in nonambulating infants are generally felt to be attributable to abuse in the absence of significant trauma or underlying organic pathology. The investigation of such fractures includes a report to appropriate social service and law enforcement agencies, and legal involvement.

I don't think anyone is trying to scare the OP, I think we are scared for her....YKWIM? I do think it is wonderful you are backing her up in her absense.... I just wish she would update so we can take a sigh of relief..

[Cat Herder]

Originally Posted by jen

I could be wrong, I'm just guessing, but perhaps her lawyer told her NOT to post anything else about the incident on an open forum...

Maybe, but a "I am ok, little guy is doing well, parents and I are working together.." or anything like that would be much appreciated...

[jen]

Originally Posted by Catherder

Maybe, but a "I am ok, little guy is doing well, parents and I are working together.." or anything like that would be much appreciated...

Yes, it would be appreciated! However, the lack of that update doesn't give us cause or the right to speculate on WHY the poster didn't update. Which leads me back to the whole point of my posts...

We don't KNOW whats going to happen, we can speculate on what MIGHT happen, but speculation is pointless. A better use of the collective energy of the group (in my opinion) might go to lending support and constructive advice based on what we KNOW.

Telling someone to report to licensing is constructive, suggesting that they document carefully and listen to their attorney is constructive. Suggesting that it may be taken out of the hands of the parents and the provider, that it may be looked at as abuse, all that is just speculation. It MIGHT happen, but we don't KNOW that, so what is the point of bringing it up?

OP... I hope all is going well with you. When you feel comfortable, I hope you will update us on the situation. Keep you chin up, listen to your attorney and family, pick out the good advice on the post, and don't give random speculation a second thought. There is NO point in worrying about what hasn't happened...you just have to cross that bridge IF you come to it.