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  #1  
Old 03-02-2012, 10:04 AM
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Default Injury At Daycare, Need Advice

I have an in home child care service. Five weeks ago one boy who is about 17 months old tackled another boy who is 12 months and just began walking. The 12month old fell and hit his face and received a scrape and nasty bruise on his right cheek.this was the third child the 17 month old had tackled that day but the only one who sustained an injury.First aid was administered and I was very upset and sternly said "No No No**** you may not knock down the other children. Look, you really hurt ****." And I showed him the "ouchie" and repeated that he had really hurt ****.of course there was a discussion with both parents at the end of the day. I was prepared to work with the aggressor to improve this behavior,but he did not tackle again. There was a small push here and there to other children over the next few weeks but nothing serious. I would say 96% of the time no aggression or physicality at all.

Then two days ago the 17 month old pushed one girls head into the carpet once. I immediately took his arm told him "no, you may not push ****. That hurts her. About an hour later he did it again to the same girl. I took his arm again and told him NO and put him in a time out.Unfortunately it seems developmentaly he does not comprehend the purpose and is not bothered by it at all so I again told him You may not hurt the other children and shadowed him the rest of the day. Until the end of the day, hours later, he was standing and playing very nicely with the 12month old he had injured 5 weeks before. They were playing with toys on a low window ledge/window seat on my bow window.I was sitting on the floor with another cnild about 5feet away. The 17month old shoved the back of the other boys head down and his face hit the edge of the window seat. Once again the 12 month old boy got a nasty bruise on his other cheek. (The first bruise heeled and the scrape is gone, but left a small mark that I think will fade with time.) Of course the same action was taken as the first time first aid ect.

The mother of the offending child is very concerned and ready to work on this with me and knowing this child since he was about 3months old I am very optimistic.Of course for the other parents it is very upsetting to have your baby's face bruised TWICE in about a one month period. I just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. The parents of the injured child want some kind of gaurranty that their child wont be injured again and would be more comfortable if I expelled the other child.I also suspect they now think I am incompetent. I have been caring for their child since he was 8 weeks old and he is always soooo happy to come here. He is always hugging me spontaniously so I kind of know he loves me and his parents say the same all the time,but now this has soured their feelings toward me( the parents, The boy still loves me) I don' t feel good about expelling the other boy for behavior that is actually very common for children his age.

Even though they injury looks bad, the action that caused it is in my opinion not extreme enough to cause me to throw this child out. The father actually said if it was him that had this" problem "he would get rid of the "problem". He also said he would hate it if it happened a third time he would have to get a " third party " involved. I am pretty sure he means a lawyer. I don' t think there is a childcare center in the world that would give a parent a guarranty that their child would never sustain an injury again.Even if I did expell the other boy. He could slip and fall ,lose his balance,be knocked down by a different child ect.I would appreciate any input. Thank you.

Last edited by Blackcat31; 03-02-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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  #2  
Old 03-02-2012, 10:16 AM
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Man...with threats like that I would hesitate to keep the kid...
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:22 AM
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I seriously would hesitate to keep the one that keeps injuring children. It almost sounds like he "targets" kids. Are there days when he isn't there that you know the atmosphere is different?
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:25 AM
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I would let go of the child who's parent is threatening. It's a fact of life, kids get hurt no matter how protective you are.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:30 AM
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As much as I understand that no one likes to see their child injured, I do not take nicely to threats. It is one of my major weakness...I will call the bluff each & every time. So that third party threat dad would be looking for a new daycare. I would give them their 2 weeks notice, because NOTHING you do will ever be good enough...he gave you his warning that 3 strikes you are out. I would be unwilling to work on pins& needles like that.

As far as the aggressor goes...it is not okay, either. Timeouts are inappropriate for that age, and counterproductive. I would treat it the same way as biting...a nasty look, a quick stern "not nice!", and completely ignore the biter/hitter, model appropriate behavior. Absolutely no attention to the hitter/biter. I am also not allowed to separate or isolate a child as a punishment, so putting him in a play yard as punishment is not allowed, nor are timeouts under 2yo. It takes alot of micromanagement of playtime to prevent chronic hitting and biting...It often isn't worth it, TBH.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:32 AM
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I would let the family go because they are threatening you. I would tell them that I cannot guarantee that accidents would never happen again. Write up a termination notice with a date for the last day in care and let him go. If you keep them, you will live every day in fear that they take up on this threat. Also, be prepared for a licensing or CPS call when these parents leave. They sound hateful enough at this point to retaliate. If you are licensed, be proactive and call your licensor to update them on this situation. If you keep this family, they will keep using passive aggressive threats in order to get their way. I would then interview to replace this one child....keep interviewing so you can replace the aggressor. From the sounds of what you describe, it sounds a bit more aggressive than normal and you will be spending A LOT of time regulating his behavior and perhaps losing another child because of it. I would just replace them both.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:32 AM
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I would get rid of the one causing the aggression. As a daycare provider and parent I understand that accidents happen and children get hurt. However, these are not accidents. These are purposeful attacks on their child and I can see why the parents would be concerned and even a little angry. It would appear that the aggressive boy needs more direct supervision and a smaller setting elsewhere could help.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:34 AM
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I would let the family go because they are threatening you. I would tell them that I cannot guarantee that accidents would never happen again. Write up a termination notice with a date for the last day in care and let him go. If you keep them, you will live every day in fear that they take up on this threat. Also, be prepared for a licensing or CPS call when these parents leave. They sound hateful enough at this point to retaliate. If you are licensed, be proactive and call your licensor to update them on this situation. If you keep this family, they will keep using passive aggressive threats in order to get their way.
Yes, 100%. I always called my licensor when I had to term. Especially if they are ticked off about anything.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:34 AM
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No matter how hard we try...these things WILL happen. I have one of my littles who just turned 15 months and has discovered that shoving is great fun. Working on that one....but he has pushed kids bigger than him to the ground. I am sure it will pass.

If these parents want assurances their child will never be hurt by another child.....they need a nanny and plenty of bubble wrap.

I say keep your shover and work with him (sounds like the mom is on board too) and get rid of the "we're ready to sue you" couple.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:35 AM
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I would tell the angry father that when his child turns 17 months and if HE started this bad (but normal) behavior, would he want you to get rid of the "problem?" Maybe that will make him see the other side of the coin.

I would watch the 12 month old like a hawk and if he is injured again, give notice to the family of the 12 month old. Tell them that you've done everything in your power to prevent injury, but, unfortunately, things happen and you don't want any further injuries to their child.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by CheekyChick View Post
I would tell the angry father that when his child turns 17 months and if HE started this bad (but normal) behavior, would he want you to get rid of the "problem?" Maybe that will make him see the other side of the coin.

I would watch the 12 month old like a hawk and if he is injured again, give notice to the family of the 12 month old. Tell them that you've done everything in your power to prevent injury, but, unfortunately, things happen and you don't want any further injuries to their child.
mmm...why should the OP wait for one more thing to happen when the parent already threatened her with a "three strikes and you're out" sort of thing? I seriously doubt the aggressor is going to change suddenly and she is really putting herself at risk by keeping a family that is threatening to involve a third party if anything else happen to their child.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:45 AM
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Actually most of the time this boy is a pleasure to have.He usually plays very nicely with others. He does spend time with some older cousins who like to rough house. I have spoken to his mom and she has agreed that at this age he cant regulate his own behavior enough to play rough with cousins one day and then come and play nicely with the others at daycare. She has agreed to talk about this with the cousins parents and grandparents. I kind of feel more comfortable keeping a child who I am confident will get through this phase,than working with parents who will from now on be looking for something to criticize.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:45 AM
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I'm like you in the sense that I prefer to work with a child's behavior before contemplating termination and it seems that you took initiative and explained as best you could about the behavior to the offending child and that his parent is on board with resolving the issue. If the problem continues or escalates then yes, I'd introduce the possibility of having to terminate the offending child for the safety of the rest of the group.

That being said, I understand that the DCD of the hurt child is upset that another child has hurt his child twice now however, let's face the fact that he has now threatened you.

If the parent of the child that was hurt threatened me with an ultimatum (get rid if the child or I'll get a lawyer involved) then I'd be uncomfortable with having that family as clients. From now on , any time that this child falls on his own the DCD will automatically think that his child was hurt by another child even of his boo-boo was self-inflicted. I'd bring the topic up again with this parent (after he had a chance to absorb the situation well and was calmer) and explain that bumps, bruises, falls and scrapes are normal in a child's everyday play and that there was no way that I could possibly guarantee that his child would never get hurt just like he could not guarantee that he could keep his child from ever getting hurt. They're children. Then I'd ask him to clarify what he meant about involving a third party. I'd want it spelled out for me so that there was absolutely no chance in hell that I could possibly misread his intentions. If he is in fact saying "get rid of the other kid or I'll get a lawyer and sue you" then this parent would probably get a termination notice from me instead of the offending child even with the possibility of me having to later terminate the offending child as well.

Just as an addded note: I'd never disclose the name of the child to either parents if any sort of altercation arises. I would recommend simply saying "Bobby was pushed today by another child causing him to fall over and hit his head. It left a mark on his face but he is fine. I will (or have spoken) to the parent of the offending child and a plan of action has been/will be put in place." if the parents ask me for names and more specifics then I'd simply say "Due to privacy, I am unable to disclose that information. However if this becomes a regular occurance you can rest assured that I will take drastic action." and leave it at that. These are matters about people's children which can raise some serious emotions. The last thing you want is for the angry dad to confront the offending child's parent on the street KWIM? That could be really bad news for you.

Bummer. Good luck with that.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:46 AM
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the threating parents will leave or sue over something in the future so cut you losses. I would tell them I am sorry but no one can guarentee you child will never be hurt. I would be best if you find care you are more comfortable with.
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:51 AM
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I would let go of the victim's family. I could not guarantee no accidents or injuries -- no one can. I would be fearful of them suing over every bump, bruise, and scrape. A child that age will have typical walking/running injuries for quite a few months and I would be concerned that they would think that I am covering up for another child if he falls from trying new things like climbing, running, and jumping. I would give them a generic termination letter and kindly explain, "I can not guarantee that no accidents or injuries would occur ever again. Since that is what you need to be comfortable with Little Johnny in my care I will need to terminate our contract immediately." Do not give any termination period with a family who is essentially blaming you for injuries that are typical of group care. Termination MUST BE IMMEDIATE. It is far too much of a liability.

The aggressor. While his behavior is developmentally appropriate, it is not acceptable in a group setting. His parents need to come up with a plan of consistency to stop this behavior NOW. No more wrestling with Dad at home. I can almost guarantee that this boy's Dad (or Mom, or other family member/friend) is engaging him in wrestling or rough housing at home. It needs to stop. He is too young to understand that it is ok to tackle Dad/Uncle Kevin/etc., but not ok to tackle Little Suzy at daycare. He is too young to understand and separate the different scenarios. He would be put on probation if he were in my care. Three strikes and you are out. If there are any other injuries, he is gone that day.

Finally, look into childproofing your daycare area to reduce injuries. Cover ALL sharp corners and crawl around to look for safety hazards. Baby proofing is easy, but toddler proofing is hard! I always find something new to cover or make safer once I have a new walker!!
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Old 03-02-2012, 10:53 AM
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The father actually said if it was him that had this" problem "he would get rid of the "problem". He also said he would hate it if it happened a third time he would have to get a " third party " involved. I am pretty sure he means a lawyer

Just based on the above statement, I would have their 2 week notice ready, then I would hand it to dcd and tell him that due to his statement that if it happened again he would hate to have to involve a third party, that I would also hate for that to happen so here's your notice. I also wouldn't hold them to two weeks notice, because when people make statements like that I lose trust in them and don't want to give them any chance to do anything to damage my business or reputation

I wouldn't get rid of the 17 month old. I think that is just part of the age, keep working with him, he'll out grow it.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:08 AM
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I'm going to say that I think the aggressor needs to be the one removed from daycare. I'm going off a bad situation that my friend went through with a home daycare (not mine). Her daughter was constantly being hurt by a dcb. The parents had spoken to the provider, and she didn't do much about it. The last straw for my friend is when the boy actually stomped on their daughter's arm. They thought it might be broken but were lucky it wasn't. They took their daughter out of care that day, especially since the provider wasn't going to remove the boy from the daycare even after that incident.

If the parents of the 12mo call your licensing people, it looks badly on you. If it were me, I'd think that the 12mo parents would badmouth me and ruin my reputation. I would rather lose the child causing problems than the dcf whose child had been hurt twice when the 12mo was innocent. If it had just been one incident, I wouldn't feel this way. But, the 17mo tackled 3 people in 1 day plus pushed the others?

I do agree with the others though who say that 12mo probably needs to go too. If I were you and could afford it, they would both be gone.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:09 AM
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I actually did not tell the parent the name of the child who injured their son.They know eachother and I think consider themselves friends so when I told the 17 month olds mom what happened the first time she immediately called the other mom to apologize.The second time the father of the injured child came to pick up within minutes of it happening and the only other child here was an infant so he immediatly knew who it was. To make it even more clear about this guy he took apicture of his sons bruised cheek and texted it to the other boys mother right after he got him in his car seat. She showed up to pick her son up 10 minutes later white as a ghost and i asked what is wrong and she said *** texted me a picture of **** face.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:14 AM
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Yeah, that dad needs to go. TODAY.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:15 AM
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ohhh no! the parents getting involved over this situation is a really bad idea. Texting pictures and calling each other is going to a whole new level. Really, I would consider replacing both children if you can. Once you let go of aggressive Dad, he will be confronting the other parents and things could get ugly fast. So sorry you have to deal with this.

Also, when you term, make sure someone is in the house with you. this dad sounds like he could have an outburst or get aggressive. i would not give a two weeks notice either. just pack up the stuff and let them go for good at the end of the day. I had a dad exactly like this one and made the mistake of terming when I was home alone....he got in my face and totally let loose screaming at me. It was bad. And this was a person that was very nice to begin with. In my case, the aggressive Dad was the parent of the aggressive child, no surprise there.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:23 AM
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in the future you need to not mention names of children. I do believe that there is some legal issues with releasing the names of the offered or victim to the parents. All that they need to know is what their child did or what happened to their child. If they ask who, you can tell them that do to regulations and protection of the children you cannot release names.

Someone please correct me on this if I am wrong....
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:25 AM
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in the future you need to not mention names of children. I do believe that there is some legal issues with releasing the names of the offered or victim to the parents. All that they need to know is what their child did or what happened to their child. If they ask who, you can tell them that do to regulations and protection of the children you cannot release names.

Someone please correct me on this if I am wrong....
She explained above how the parents found out. They are friends.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:33 AM
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She explained above how the parents found out. They are friends.
lol, sorry I guess I missed that part...thanks for filling me in
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:36 AM
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lol, sorry I guess I missed that part...thanks for filling me in
It's a long thread. I don't always read all the responses before I reply, lol.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:37 AM
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Yes i have also had my older children blab that so and so hit so and so to the parents when they come opps.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:39 AM
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Oh man..what a mess I'm so sorry you are going through this.
I would have the 12 month olds stuff packed and termed at pick up. Threats are not ever ever okay! I would also write out why you are terming (threat) for DCP and send a copy to licensing.
Good luck!
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by llethert View Post
I actually did not tell the parent the name of the child who injured their son.They know eachother and I think consider themselves friends so when I told the 17 month olds mom what happened the first time she immediately called the other mom to apologize.The second time the father of the injured child came to pick up within minutes of it happening and the only other child here was an infant so he immediatly knew who it was. To make it even more clear about this guy he took apicture of his sons bruised cheek and texted it to the other boys mother right after he got him in his car seat. She showed up to pick her son up 10 minutes later white as a ghost and i asked what is wrong and she said *** texted me a picture of **** face.
Well there's nothing you can do about that. I just wait until the end of the day to talk to the parents in person if an injury occurs. If it requires a call to work then that's because the child's injuries are so serious that they have to be picked up. Was the injury really that bad? It totally seems like you're doing everything within reasonable limits, it's my opinion that DCD is not being quite as reasonable. That's pretty crazy in fact. Now I'm wondering if the comment about involving a third party was directed at you. Maybe he meant it towards the other mom? Either way after hearing about the comment and the texting thing I'm still sitting here SMH. With friends like that, who needs enemies?

Do you have any idea what you will do?
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:53 AM
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Get rid of the child with the father who threatened you. I guarantee that at some point, their child will be hurt again, thats how kids learn. It is just a terrible coincidence that it happened so close together, and it is impossible to prevent every injury, no matter ho. w much you hover over the kids.

That man is threatening you, your family, your daycare, your income, and your reputation. He has to go. Give him 2 weeks and tell him you no longer believe a group daycare setting is right for his child, as you cannot provide a guarantee that nothing will ever happen, and would hate for him to have to resort to a third party to correct normal child behavior.

When people show you who they are, believe them.... Don't risk it.
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Old 03-02-2012, 11:58 AM
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I would let go of the victim's family. I could not guarantee no accidents or injuries -- no one can. I would be fearful of them suing over every bump, bruise, and scrape. A child that age will have typical walking/running injuries for quite a few months and I would be concerned that they would think that I am covering up for another child if he falls from trying new things like climbing, running, and jumping. I would give them a generic termination letter and kindly explain, "I can not guarantee that no accidents or injuries would occur ever again. Since that is what you need to be comfortable with Little Johnny in my care I will need to terminate our contract immediately." Do not give any termination period with a family who is essentially blaming you for injuries that are typical of group care. Termination MUST BE IMMEDIATE. It is far too much of a liability.

The aggressor. While his behavior is developmentally appropriate, it is not acceptable in a group setting. His parents need to come up with a plan of consistency to stop this behavior NOW. No more wrestling with Dad at home. I can almost guarantee that this boy's Dad (or Mom, or other family member/friend) is engaging him in wrestling or rough housing at home. It needs to stop. He is too young to understand that it is ok to tackle Dad/Uncle Kevin/etc., but not ok to tackle Little Suzy at daycare. He is too young to understand and separate the different scenarios. He would be put on probation if he were in my care. Three strikes and you are out. If there are any other injuries, he is gone that day.

Finally, look into childproofing your daycare area to reduce injuries. Cover ALL sharp corners and crawl around to look for safety hazards. Baby proofing is easy, but toddler proofing is hard! I always find something new to cover or make safer once I have a new walker!!
I totally agree with this....about terminating the threatening family immeidately (I wouldn't give time for another accident to happen) and about the pushing child not being capable of knowing when it is appropriate for rough-housing. I have a little girl who is 2 who was pushing kids all the time. It turns out that her older brother and dad let her push them in the chest and they would purposely fall over in an exagerated way, laughing. She thought she could push anyone because she couldn't tell the difference between playing with dad and brother and pushing someone smaller.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:03 PM
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I actually did not tell the parent the name of the child who injured their son.They know eachother and I think consider themselves friends so when I told the 17 month olds mom what happened the first time she immediately called the other mom to apologize.The second time the father of the injured child came to pick up within minutes of it happening and the only other child here was an infant so he immediatly knew who it was. To make it even more clear about this guy he took apicture of his sons bruised cheek and texted it to the other boys mother right after he got him in his car seat. She showed up to pick her son up 10 minutes later white as a ghost and i asked what is wrong and she said *** texted me a picture of **** face.
That is out of control. I would have the 12 month old's stuff ready when he is picked up and give them an immediate termination of care letter. I would not mess around with someone like that. And also, call your liscensor right away and explain the situation. This guy sounds like someone who gets overly angry and will do things to get back at others.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:04 PM
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What a crappy situation to be in! So sorry for you.

Toddlers are toddlers, they all push and shove to get what they want and others will fall and get bumps and bruises. The 12 month old will most likely be doing this as well as he gets closer to the 18 month old mark.

If this father can not understand this which he obviously can not, then his little 12 month old definitely needs a nanny with no other kids around.

Gee I would love to see when this child starts school. What are they going to do then? I think they may need to hire a private teacher for him in their home so that he never gets pushed or shoved.

If you do not want to terminate perhaps a nice letter to him explaining why his rates are going to increase would be a good idea! Inform him that because of his threat of involving a third party you have decided that you can not run the risk of this happening again. Because you can not allow this child to sustain any other injuries, which are basically beyond your control as you have other children to tend to, you are going to be hiring an assistant who can be with his child x number of hours per day for x number of $$$ per day!
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:08 PM
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The child who was injured would have to go today. I wouldn't allow a parent to set foot in my house who had previously threatened me with a third party. So for the sake of that parent... they need the life experience to have an immediate consequence for that kind of behavior. They had the option to remove the child immediately and just pay your notice time. Instead they threatened you.

At this point your mistakes have already been done with this situation and you really can't undo what has already happened.

Please read this blog: http://www.daycare.com/nannyde/surre...o-the-baby.htm

This is the technique I use to insure nothing like this ever happens.

I would NEVER allow a 12 month old new walker to free range toys in the same space as a 17 month old. Too dangerous. When he hurt him the first time it was your warning shot that they can NOT be in the same place without barriers between them. The 17 month old can't manage the baby in it's space.

My parents would be furious over an accident like this because I have given them my word that the older children/toddlers will not have access to the baby until each older child can safely manage the baby. They wouldn't threaten a lawyer but they would remove their child that day and I couldn't blame them. I have a NO violence policy so this would really upset them especially if it happened twice.

I've been operating for 18 years and I have never had an injury like this. Having it happen twice is a clear indication that you need to completely change how you manage these kids at this age. It's your responsibility to NEVER give a child access to another child that you aren't a hundred percent sure that they can safely pay around them. You knew this child had the potential to get physical with the baby and it happened again. It's time to make serious changes to protect the kids AND yourself.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:26 PM
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I am very much like Nan when it comes to the babies. The older kids have zero access to their area and the baby itself. When I "release" the baby into the playroom, the kids are trained to not touch the baby or the baby's toys. If baby bothers them, they are to freeze -- no correcting baby, no turning away, no yanking the toy. They wait for me to come and handle the baby. Even babies are separated from babies unless I am in between them since a baby cannot control itself the way an older child can.

I once put a child on probation simply for touching a baby. DCG walked behind me and wiggled the toy on the exersaucer and grabbed baby's arm. Not in a mean way. She thought that she would be sneaky and do it while her mother was there to pick her up. She thought the rules did not apply since her mom was there. Wrong. I immediately put her in time out and reminded her of the rules. I told mom right then and there is her dd touched the baby or his things again, she would be terminated.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:29 PM
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Actually most of the time this boy is a pleasure to have.He usually plays very nicely with others. He does spend time with some older cousins who like to rough house. I have spoken to his mom and she has agreed that at this age he cant regulate his own behavior enough to play rough with cousins one day and then come and play nicely with the others at daycare. She has agreed to talk about this with the cousins parents and grandparents. I kind of feel more comfortable keeping a child who I am confident will get through this phase,than working with parents who will from now on be looking for something to criticize.
I think you have your own answer
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:38 PM
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First I really thank all of you for your input. It is very helpful. I have decided that it probably would be best to terminate the contract with the parents of the 12month old. I just don't need to worry about "what if..." .He is not here today, so on Monday I will have one more face to face and give them a letter.I am going to suggest that a childcare situation with less children or no other non-family children would be best for them. I am willing to give them 2 weeks, but don' t think they will use it.The father has a very flexible schedule and I would bet he is just going to say hes going to keep him home until they find another option. As for the other boy I really am confident he will get through this phase and I don't think the safety of the other children will be compromised by giving him a chance. I am ready for the challenge.I will definately work closely with his parents and let them know this is a probationary period, and we will need to see changes for him to stay.I am going to post again to report how Mondays talk goes. Thanks everyone!
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:42 PM
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First I really thank all of you for your input. It is very helpful. I have decided that it probably would be best to terminate the contract with the parents of the 12month old. I just don't need to worry about "what if..." .He is not here today, so on Monday I will have one more face to face and give them a letter.I am going to suggest that a childcare situation with less children or no other non-family children would be best for them. I am willing to give them 2 weeks, but don' t think they will use it.The father has a very flexible schedule and I would bet he is just going to say hes going to keep him home until they find another option. As for the other boy I really am confident he will get through this phase and I don't think the safety of the other children will be compromised by giving him a chance. I am ready for the challenge.I will definately work closely with his parents and let them know this is a probationary period, and we will need to see changes for him to stay.I am going to post again to report how Mondays talk goes. Thanks everyone!
Great decision. But please don't give two weeks. Please. They will find a reason to get "third party" involved. These people are NOT worth your future. They aren't. Forget manners, forget generosity, forget compassion. This man has threatened your livelihood. Your future. Your life. Get him out TODAY. Email the notice, pack the things up and tell him to collect them on the front porch by 8pm.
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:42 PM
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First I really thank all of you for your input. It is very helpful. I have decided that it probably would be best to terminate the contract with the parents of the 12month old. I just don't need to worry about "what if..." .He is not here today, so on Monday I will have one more face to face and give them a letter.I am going to suggest that a childcare situation with less children or no other non-family children would be best for them. I am willing to give them 2 weeks, but don' t think they will use it.The father has a very flexible schedule and I would bet he is just going to say hes going to keep him home until they find another option. As for the other boy I really am confident he will get through this phase and I don't think the safety of the other children will be compromised by giving him a chance. I am ready for the challenge.I will definately work closely with his parents and let them know this is a probationary period, and we will need to see changes for him to stay.I am going to post again to report how Mondays talk goes. Thanks everyone!
make sure you document everything................
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Old 03-02-2012, 12:46 PM
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Great decision. But please don't give two weeks. Please. They will find a reason to get "third party" involved. These people are NOT worth your future. They aren't. Forget manners, forget generosity, forget compassion. This man has threatened your livelihood. Your future. Your life. Get him out TODAY. Email the notice, pack the things up and tell him to collect them on the front porch by 8pm.
I so agree with this.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:00 PM
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Thank you for your words of wisdom nannyde. I have a relatively small group and honestly never considered this issue you raised. Thank you for giving me this to consider I am now seriously thinking about making this change.I do always teach the older kids to be gentle and kind to their younger friends and that babies are hands off.After the first time I really thought I was on top of the situation ,but now realize there IS something more I should do.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:16 PM
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Thank you for your words of wisdom nannyde. I have a relatively small group and honestly never considered this issue you raised. Thank you for giving me this to consider I am now seriously thinking about making this change.
you are welcome

Don't give the dad two weeks. Do it today. Tell him you have decided not to provide services for them and to arrange pick up for his belongings and their receipt.

I wouldn't go into what the baby needs... just that you are done today. The parent needs an immediate response to the threat. Remember he had the option to pull the child and just offer to pay out your notice time. That was the proper thing to do in this situation but he choose to threaten you instead.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:20 PM
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Great decision. But please don't give two weeks. Please. They will find a reason to get "third party" involved. These people are NOT worth your future. They aren't. Forget manners, forget generosity, forget compassion. This man has threatened your livelihood. Your future. Your life. Get him out TODAY. Email the notice, pack the things up and tell him to collect them on the front porch by 8pm.
I agree with this, too! I don't think I would want them back on my property with the 12 month old again in case something happened. What if he falls or something on Monday when he is there?
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:26 PM
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mmm...why should the OP wait for one more thing to happen when the parent already threatened her with a "three strikes and you're out" sort of thing? I seriously doubt the aggressor is going to change suddenly and she is really putting herself at risk by keeping a family that is threatening to involve a third party if anything else happen to their child.
I'm guessing his bark is worse than his bite. Do you actually think he would sue her because his son got pushed down and got a bruise? That's silly. I doubt an attorney would even take his case. If I loved the baby (like the OP stated), I would do my best to make it work.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:37 PM
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Please don't give 2 weeks notice. If they take it, you are going to walk on glass for those weeks. They are going to be upset and look for ANYTHING to nail you on. And as accidents DO happen, you are putting your whole world at risk.

Call licensing. Tell them you are terming for threats. Be ready for an inspection anyway because I am sure they will complain.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:39 PM
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I'm guessing his bark is worse than his bite. Do you actually think he would sue her because his son got pushed down and got a bruise? That's silly. I doubt an attorney would even take his case. If I loved the baby (like the OP stated), I would do my best to make it work.
I don't assume anything. I work on what I KNOW. I KNOW that the OP was threatened. I KNOW that he seems unstable and unreasonable.

She can love the baby to the moon and back. Is that love worth gambling her entire future? I doubt it. She will find another child to love. I KNOW that.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:43 PM
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I'm guessing his bark is worse than his bite. Do you actually think he would sue her because his son got pushed down and got a bruise? That's silly. I doubt an attorney would even take his case. If I loved the baby (like the OP stated), I would do my best to make it work.
If this is true, then dad needs to learn that people will take his threats seriously and he will have to face the consequences of opening his mouth and letting idle threats fly.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:44 PM
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I'm guessing his bark is worse than his bite. Do you actually think he would sue her because his son got pushed down and got a bruise? That's silly. I doubt an attorney would even take his case. If I loved the baby (like the OP stated), I would do my best to make it work.
Maybe he's full of hot hair and maybe he's not. But I sure wouldn't want to work with a man like that! A threat is a threat whether he meant it or not and whether it's valid or not. He MEANT to intimidate her. I wouldn't accept that from anyone in my own home.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:45 PM
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I don't assume anything. I work on what I KNOW. I KNOW that the OP was threatened. I KNOW that he seems unstable and unreasonable.

She can love the baby to the moon and back. Is that love worth gambling her entire future? I doubt it. She will find another child to love. I KNOW that.
Just my opinion.
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:48 PM
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I'm guessing his bark is worse than his bite. Do you actually think he would sue her because his son got pushed down and got a bruise? That's silly. I doubt an attorney would even take his case. If I loved the baby (like the OP stated), I would do my best to make it work.
I think you are being incredibly naive. Even if he doesn't contact a lawyer, he can still harass with CPS calls, licensing calls, coming over and calling himself. Ticked off parents are VERY capable of ruining a provider's life. I am not going to take the chance that his "bark is worse than his bite"....if a dog is growling at you, do you stay where you are or move closer? Of course not! You move away! The growl is the warning. They may or may not bite, you don't know for sure but why take the chance?

this isn't about loving the child. It is unfair to the OP to imply that if she really loved the children in her care, she would make it work. Where is the accountability for the parent? Are providers supposed to tolerate everything in the name of loving the children they work with?
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:51 PM
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Maybe he's full of hot hair and maybe he's not. But I sure wouldn't want to work with a man like that! A threat is a threat whether he meant it or not and whether it's valid or not. He MEANT to intimidate her. I wouldn't accept that from anyone in my own home.
I wouldn't either. He sounds like a bully.

BUT, as Nan pointed out, there are sure-fire ways to keep the baby and toddler separated. If I TRULY loved this baby and needed the income, I would make it work. I would also have a long talk with DCD and tell him that I would NOT tolerate his threats and if it happened again, child care services would be immediately terminated.

I guess my opinion isn't popular and I'm okay with that. LOL!!!
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Old 03-02-2012, 01:58 PM
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I think you are being incredibly naive. Even if he doesn't contact a lawyer, he can still harass with CPS calls, licensing calls, coming over and calling himself. Ticked off parents are VERY capable of ruining a provider's life. I am not going to take the chance that his "bark is worse than his bite"....if a dog is growling at you, do you stay where you are or move closer? Of course not! You move away! The growl is the warning. They may or may not bite, you don't know for sure but why take the chance?

this isn't about loving the child. It is unfair to the OP to imply that if she really loved the children in her care, she would make it work. Where is the accountability for the parent? Are providers supposed to tolerate everything in the name of loving the children they work with?
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:13 PM
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I think you are being incredibly naive. Even if he doesn't contact a lawyer, he can still harass with CPS calls, licensing calls, coming over and calling himself. Ticked off parents are VERY capable of ruining a provider's life. I am not going to take the chance that his "bark is worse than his bite"....if a dog is growling at you, do you stay where you are or move closer? Of course not! You move away! The growl is the warning. They may or may not bite, you don't know for sure but why take the chance?

this isn't about loving the child. It is unfair to the OP to imply that if she really loved the children in her care, she would make it work. Where is the accountability for the parent? Are providers supposed to tolerate everything in the name of loving the children they work with?
I'm not saying she has to make it work because she loves the baby. I am saying that if she WANTS it to work, there are ways to make it work.

No. providers aren't supposed to tolerate rudeness. If it were me, I would give him a one strike and you're out warning.

From past experience, I have seen parents get in a FRENZY over injuries. I had a DCD that was LIVID when his little girl fell into a rocking chair and got a huge bruise on her forehead. He wanted to know EVERY little detail and gave me the impression that I wasn't watching her carefully - or it wouldn't have happened.

I wrote him a letter explaining every little detail of how she tripped, the first aid steps I took, etc. He was cold with me for a few months, but the little girl has now been here about three years and he is extremely respectful of me and what I do.

This parent is clearly a hot-head and is overreacting. Sometimes a simple talk or letter can clear things up. It doesn't necessarily mean the OP's "life and livelihood will be destroyed" over this.

But, that is only my opinion...
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:16 PM
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He was cold to you for months?!? Oh heck no! No one who is cold to me gets to come to my house everyday and be rude to me. I respect my clients and deserve the same respect in return. That is just basic manners. I wouldn't want the child of a person who was that thoughtless and rude.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:20 PM
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I'm not saying she has to make it work because she loves the baby. I am saying that if she WANTS it to work, there are ways to make it work.

No. providers aren't supposed to tolerate rudeness. If it were me, I would give him a one strike and you're out warning.

From past experience, I have seen parents get in a FRENZY over injuries. I had a DCD that was LIVID when his little girl fell into a rocking chair and got a huge bruise on her forehead. He wanted to know EVERY little detail and gave me the impression that I wasn't watching her carefully - or it wouldn't have happened.

I wrote him a letter explaining every little detail of how she tripped, the first aid steps I took, etc. He was cold with me for a few months, but the little girl has now been here about three years and he is extremely respectful of me and what I do.

This parent is clearly a hot-head and is overreacting. Sometimes a simple talk or letter can clear things up. It doesn't necessarily mean the OP's "life and livelihood will be destroyed" over this.

But, that is only my opinion...
I agree with you, except that fact that he made a threat to the DCP ....Why would you want to wait it out to call his bluff on that??
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:22 PM
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He was cold to you for months?!? Oh heck no! No one who is cold to me gets to come to my house everyday and be rude to me. I respect my clients and deserve the same respect in return. That is just basic manners. I wouldn't want the child of a person who was that thoughtless and rude.
Yes. He was a punk. LOL!!!

Since I love the little girl and her mom, I wasn't too concerned. HE was the one who was being immature and irrational - not me.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:36 PM
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I agree with you, except that fact that he made a threat to the DCP ....Why would you want to wait it out to call his bluff on that??
I had to go back and reread the original post to see why my opinion is so unpopular. LOL!!!

After rereading the post, I stand by my opinion. I just don't see his threat as being a big deal. He didn't threaten her person, her family, or the 17 month old. He was simply being a hot head. PLUS, even if he did contact the state, do you think they would actually look down upon her because a toddler pushed a baby down twice? I don't think so...

I would do two things:

#1 I would send the DCD a certified letter (or warning) that if he attempted to bully or threaten me again - child care services would be terminated.
#2 I would then do what Nan suggested and NEVER allow the 17 month old access to the baby.

Good or bad, right or wrong, that's what I would do.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:38 PM
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I had to go back and reread the original post to see why my opinion is so unpopular. LOL!!!

After rereading the post, I stand by my opinion. I just don't see his threat as being a big deal. He didn't threaten her person, her family, or the 17 month old. He was simply being a hot head. PLUS, even if he did contact the state, do you think they would actually look down upon her because a toddler pushed a baby down twice? I don't think so...

I would do two things:

#1 I would send the DCD a certified letter (or warning) that if he attempted to bully or threaten me again - child care services would be terminated.
#2 I would then do what Nan suggested and NEVER allow the 17 month old access to the baby.

Good or bad, right or wrong, that's what I would do.
IF he calls LIC or CPS legally they have to come out!! WHy would you want to invite that? it stays on your record

Sorry I am dumbfounded by this... YOu are a very trusting persona maybe and I am not.

I would never allow anyone to threaten me in any way and give them the chance to follow through.

Why open that can of worms??

YOu are correct, there is no right or wrong here, but there is common sense
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:53 PM
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IF he calls LIC or CPS legally they have to come out!! WHy would you want to invite that? it stays on your record

Sorry I am dumbfounded by this... YOu are a very trusting persona maybe and I am not.

I would never allow anyone to threaten me in any way and give them the chance to follow through.

Why open that can of worms??

YOu are correct, there is no right or wrong here, but there is common sense
Maybe I am a bit too trusting... I've also never had a complaint or a visit due to a complaint, which I'm sure wouldn't be a pleasant experience. I might feel differently if I had...

The fact is, if she gives him a warning and she puts HERSELF in control - I don't think he will bully her further.

On the other hand, if she terminates the family, he may STILL turn her in and say she terminated child care services because their child was getting injured in her care and she allowed it to happen.

It's a hard call to make...
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:54 PM
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He was cold to you for months?!? Oh heck no! No one who is cold to me gets to come to my house everyday and be rude to me. I respect my clients and deserve the same respect in return. That is just basic manners. I wouldn't want the child of a person who was that thoughtless and rude.
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Old 03-02-2012, 02:55 PM
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Maybe I am a bit too trusting... I've also never had a complaint or a visit due to a complaint, which I'm sure wouldn't be a pleasant experience. I might feel differently if I had...

The fact is, if she gives him a warning and she puts HERSELF in control - I don't think he will bully her further.

On the other hand, if she terminates the family, he may STILL turn her in and say she terminated child care services because their child was getting injured in her care and she allowed it to happen.

It's a hard call to make...
very true....Either way it needs to be delt with and it STINKS that she is in this situation. I feel very sad for her...HUgs to you OP.

I have only had my regular LIC check up inspections and even that was dreadful.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:05 PM
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very true....Either way it needs to be delt with and it STINKS that she is in this situation. I feel very sad for her...HUgs to you OP.

I have only had my regular LIC check up inspections and even that was dreadful.
I 100% agree. It's almost a no-win situation and my heart truly goes out to her.

YES!!! Inspections stink. LOL!!! I scrub every inch of this place, get my paperwork in perfect order, and then sweat the entire time they're here. NOT fun.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:07 PM
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I 100% agree. It's almost a no-win situation and my heart truly goes out to her.

YES!!! Inspections stink. LOL!!! I scrub every inch of this place, get my paperwork in perfect order, and then sweat the entire time they're here. NOT fun.
I have two moms now that work for LIC at first I was super nervous, but now I love them, They are always so helpful....
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:08 PM
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Even though they injury looks bad, the action that caused it is in my opinion not extreme enough to cause me to throw this child out. The father actually said if it was him that had this" problem "he would get rid of the "problem". He also said he would hate it if it happened a third time he would have to get a " third party " involved. I am pretty sure he means a lawyer. I don' t think there is a childcare center in the world that would give a parent a guarranty that their child would never sustain an injury again.Even if I did expell the other boy. He could slip and fall ,lose his balance,be knocked down by a different child ect.I would appreciate any input. Thank you.
Honestly, I would immediately drop the child who's father is threatening you. NO good can come from a family like this. He may be the "victim", but he can destroy everything you've worked for. (his parent, not him actually)

I'm sure he's a wonderful, delightful baby...but, it's never worth having a child if the parents are making you feel this fearful.

What if one more thing happens to him, even if it isn't from this one child? What if something more serious happens? What if he gets his finger pinched in a door? These people are going to call a lawyer? This child needs to be in a bubble. A heavily insured bubble.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:11 PM
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I have two moms now that work for LIC at first I was super nervous, but now I love them, They are always so helpful....
Oh my goodness!!! I think I would have a nervous breakdown if a toy was out of place. LOL!!! Well, I'm glad you love them and that they have been helpful.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:12 PM
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I would get rid of the one causing the aggression. As a daycare provider and parent I understand that accidents happen and children get hurt. However, these are not accidents. These are purposeful attacks on their child and I can see why the parents would be concerned and even a little angry. It would appear that the aggressive boy needs more direct supervision and a smaller setting elsewhere could help.
But, that kid is only 17 months old. He's not attacking anyone. He's being a rough toddler. There's hope for him...but, no hope for a father who's threatening to sue the person he's trusting to care for his child. What kind of dumb*** threatens his child's provider with a lawyer?
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:14 PM
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:15 PM
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what she said...^^^^^
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:26 PM
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First I really thank all of you for your input. It is very helpful. I have decided that it probably would be best to terminate the contract with the parents of the 12month old. I just don't need to worry about "what if..." .He is not here today, so on Monday I will have one more face to face and give them a letter.I am going to suggest that a childcare situation with less children or no other non-family children would be best for them. I am willing to give them 2 weeks, but don' t think they will use it.The father has a very flexible schedule and I would bet he is just going to say hes going to keep him home until they find another option. As for the other boy I really am confident he will get through this phase and I don't think the safety of the other children will be compromised by giving him a chance. I am ready for the challenge.I will definately work closely with his parents and let them know this is a probationary period, and we will need to see changes for him to stay.I am going to post again to report how Mondays talk goes. Thanks everyone!
I think you are making a very wise decision, protect yourself and business first. I agree with everyone else that you should give notice as soon as possible. With that comment he has broken any trust you may have had in him. I hope it all goes smooth for you.

I agree that the 17 month old will get through this phase. Keep working on him.
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Old 03-02-2012, 03:41 PM
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If this is true, then dad needs to learn that people will take his threats seriously and he will have to face the consequences of opening his mouth and letting idle threats fly.
Sounds like he's going to find out soon! It's good to set him straight now because when his child is SA and he pulls a stunt like that, the school system will say "see you in court". He'd better learn it well so he doesn't teach that attitude to his child.

I hate sue happy idiots. Nobody is going to keep his child in a bubble including him!

To the original OP - you don't need the extra paranoia of dealing with parents like this. Childcare is stressful enough and you need all of your energy to stay on top of things.
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Old 03-02-2012, 04:48 PM
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Sounds like he's going to find out soon! It's good to set him straight now because when his child is SA and he pulls a stunt like that, the school system will say "see you in court". He'd better learn it well so he doesn't teach that attitude to his child.

I hate sue happy idiots. Nobody is going to keep his child in a bubble including him!

To the original OP - you don't need the extra paranoia of dealing with parents like this. Childcare is stressful enough and you need all of your energy to stay on top of things.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:10 AM
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dont know what time it is there but I am anxiously awaiting an update from OP on the DCD response. I hope he realizes that his behavior was extremely inappropriate.

Let us know.
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Old 03-05-2012, 10:42 AM
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mmm...why should the OP wait for one more thing to happen when the parent already threatened her with a "three strikes and you're out" sort of thing? I seriously doubt the aggressor is going to change suddenly and she is really putting herself at risk by keeping a family that is threatening to involve a third party if anything else happen to their child.
I agree with Meeko-

The aggressor will change- he is acting out, because he most likely does not have the words yet to express himself. However, I would talk with the parents that threatened calling in a third party. I would want to know what that means and I would also explain to them that you are not letting this behavior go on, but at this age, these things do happen. I would also have the aggressor glued to me for a few weeks. Never out of site or further then arms reach when possible. This way you can catch his behavior and teach him. No parent wants to come to daycare and find out that their child has been hurt. But- things happen. It's not like you put him in the ring and said have at him. Stay on top of things and don't be bullied by this parent but listen and show concern and assure them your doing everything possible. Some kids go through this stage. Remember your the boss, not the parents. Nip a parent telling you how you should run your daycare fast. They are kids learning. You can separate this child into his own space if everything else fails. Have a calm down area- and put them there when needed.
Best-
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Old 03-05-2012, 11:12 AM
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I wouldn't either. He sounds like a bully.

BUT, as Nan pointed out, there are sure-fire ways to keep the baby and toddler separated. If I TRULY loved this baby and needed the income, I would make it work. I would also have a long talk with DCD and tell him that I would NOT tolerate his threats and if it happened again, child care services would be immediately terminated.

I guess my opinion isn't popular and I'm okay with that. LOL!!!
I say try working with both of them. I can see how is mouth got the best of him out of reacting to his hurt child. He is friends with the other party so he sent a picture to show he was not happy about this, and that might have been the third party he was talking about. The other parents. I would talk with him. If he talks lawyer as a third party- well then BYE. You don't need to be working on pins and needles. He has to know you can't work under that pressure either and won't. Talk with him before handing him a notice. but have it ready just in case you need to let him go. Men think different then women......it shows here. He just wants to fix it NOW! Your willing to work things out.

I think your opinion is fine- I often think and I sometimes do it myself, we react before we take in human accountability. This situation seems workable, it doesn't seem like its dead ended. It would be dead ended if after I talked with the father and found out he did not trust me or expected perfection of me. I will push myself to perfection but I am human, and human error occurs. Heart to heart it out with him and find out where you stand before taking drastic measures. If the aggressor kept at it, then I would access the situation and go from there. Honestly sounds like an age thing. I like Nan's advice on separating.
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Old 03-05-2012, 03:13 PM
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I say try working with both of them. I can see how is mouth got the best of him out of reacting to his hurt child. He is friends with the other party so he sent a picture to show he was not happy about this, and that might have been the third party he was talking about. The other parents. I would talk with him. If he talks lawyer as a third party- well then BYE. You don't need to be working on pins and needles. He has to know you can't work under that pressure either and won't. Talk with him before handing him a notice. but have it ready just in case you need to let him go. Men think different then women......it shows here. He just wants to fix it NOW! Your willing to work things out.

I think your opinion is fine- I often think and I sometimes do it myself, we react before we take in human accountability. This situation seems workable, it doesn't seem like its dead ended. It would be dead ended if after I talked with the father and found out he did not trust me or expected perfection of me. I will push myself to perfection but I am human, and human error occurs. Heart to heart it out with him and find out where you stand before taking drastic measures. If the aggressor kept at it, then I would access the situation and go from there. Honestly sounds like an age thing. I like Nan's advice on separating.
THANK YOU!!! You would have thought by the response I received, that I wanted the DCD to bully and threaten the OP.

Anyhoo...

I've just seen how men (daddys) react when their child gets hurt. They want to fix the problem NOW - even if it means coming off sounding like a punk. I would give him the benefit of the doubt (this time) and give him a stern warning on how I expect to be treated. If he is a decent person, he may have already apologized for his actions. I am anxious to find out what happened...
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:29 PM
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Default injury at daycare update

I wanted to update sooner, but have had a very busy week. With childcare and family stuff.
I have decided to keep on both families for now .On Monday the father of the injured boy came to drop him off and we had a short conversation. His attitude was much calmer and open to discussing the issue further. Also they have now refered two friends who have newborns.One who needs care now and one to begin in a few months. These parents are also friends with the parents of the other boy who was the "aggressor" so they knew the story from both sides.one set were not concerned enough to even want to discuss it. The other set of parents did have questions. After speaking to these new parents about my approach to the situation they decided they respected the way I have decided to deal with it and really like what they have heard from many other references.This IS slightly bizarre. I am going to trust that someone who is going to refer two good friends is not going to come after my business with a lawsuit.They also still want to bring their son. They have decided for the time being to bring him the 2 days per week that the other boy does not come. ( he comes 3 days). So I am going to go with the flow and take it week by week. I will be re-evaluating the situation with both of the boys' parents weekly.As far as changing things to avoid this happening again I have always kept the babies under 12 months mostly seperated from the older kids. Bouncy seats,exersaucers and jumperoos help with this and I have a strict rule that older children must stay away from the babies floor blankets. I will be moving the age up,but once a child is walking I am going to have to be creative to figure out how to seperate them in the space that I have. Thanks again for all the comments and advice!
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Old 03-09-2012, 08:59 PM
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Good luck! I hope everything works out! Having the two boys come on opposite days sounds like it could be a solution for now. Hopefully that Dad has calmed down for good and really was just shooting his mouth off and nothing more. You are being very accommodating to give him a second chance, that is not something I could do. As for the new babies, hope that works out too! I don't take "friends of friends" because sometimes these groups become a package deal and if you offend one, they all talk and cause drama. I hope that is not the case for you and that this circle of friends will be the exception. Best of luck!!!
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:27 AM
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I am so happy things worked out AND that the family even referred two new families. That is awesome. My "gut" feeling was that he was just being a hot head and that when he calmed down, things would smooth out.
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