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Unregistered 03:50 PM 12-14-2010
Help please!

I have a dcb who will be 4 in Jan, who is extremely hyperactive and basically out of control. I've had him since he was 2.5, so for a year and a half, and the parents and I have had countless conferences about his behaviour. For a while it got pretty good, during the summer, go figure, when we were outside for more than half of the day, but now that it's winter we don't go outside as often so there are fewer outlets for his hyperactivity. Today it was raining outside and I don't take the kids out in the rain. I let them play a little more vigorously in the playroom and it went fairly well, but once it came to lunch time dcb was back to making animal noises and playing with his food and generally being a brat (I don't like that word but it's the best I can come up with in my frustration at the moment) ....

After nap he was crashing toys into walls, running around despite countless reminders about using walking feet, screaming and yelling and bacially back to being completely out of control. And the other kids obviously feed off it, so I had 5 tornadoes swirling into each other and squealing. Literally. They were pretending to be tornadoes.

I really do try to be a good sport about these things, and I try to be understanding of the fact that it is gross outside and they need to get that energy out, but at the same time, this kid KNOWS the rules, and continuously flat out defies them.

When his parents get here he just gets worse. He'll stand, holding on to the gate at the bottom of the stairs and jump and squeal. He constantly makes animal noises when they get here and absolutely will NOT sit still. It takes both of them to hold him down, plus 10 minutes to just get his boots on at home time. Trying to have a conversation is impossible because he's basically jumping around going LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME!!!!!

It is completely ridiculous. The days I don't have him are breezy. The kids play nicely together, I can sit on the floor and play with him, but he is totally exhausting. When he is here, I am ashamed to admit I don't like my job

Terming is not an option, I love the family (even if their parenting has me shaking my head more often than not), they appreciate me more than any other family I have, and they are very receptive to everything I say...

What I'm looking for are suggestions about how I can control him when he's here? Time outs are completely useless on him, any verbal cues are completely lost on him, and he's incredibly immature. The most obvious answer is being outside more often, but even that hasn't been helping as he'll build himself a little snow bank and just play with the diggers and tractors the entire time we're outside.....


BTW I am a registered member, just don't want this coming back to bite me lol
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nannyde 04:50 PM 12-14-2010
Is he being physical with you, the other kids, your home, or his parents while in your home?
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Abigail 05:58 PM 12-14-2010
Does he has an issue where he is on meds? It is so great that the parents are appreciative of you because they must deal with it at home. Can you create a "gym" time inside and then it will give this boy a time of day (or two if you want it) to unwind appropriately inside? We have tons of snow here and it shows in the kids they need to play hard or be crabby. LOL

Create gym games that you are in charge of that would be safe inside. Make one a team effort where you can put some balls in a bucket on one end of the room and have everyone line up by you. Have them run, grab one ball, and put it in a bucket by you. You can time it in general and have it be a goal that everyone works together to get it done in so-many minutes. One at a time rule will prevent many kids from running, just teach them to wait their turn and it should be every minute. While they wait they should learn to cheer on their team mate and clap. You can also do skipping, jumping jacks, or other movement ideas that will get them moving but not so chaotic that it's disruptive. Try doing this once or twice a day when you need it. You could also say if they're cheer quietly you will turn on the music.

Please share with us if anything works.
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Unregistered 05:59 PM 12-14-2010
You mean hitting or being aggressive? No. He's very large for his age and will try to "squeeze" past other kids and knock them down, but he's not intentionally aggressive towards people. His aggression comes out in crashing toys together or into walls, or doing "cannonballs" into big pillows. He'll crawl around and rub his face on the carpet when he's frustrated or overstimulated. If he's angry he'll bang his fists into his legs and growl. When he's playing with other kids, he always wants to crash his toys into theirs. No words or explanations or interventions that I know about will get him to stop doing this. It's very frustrating to the other kids and, of course, to me.
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Unregistered 06:12 PM 12-14-2010
Abigail, I really like that idea, I think I'll try that, thanks! That's definitely a kind of active playing I could tolerate and I know they'd love it.
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Abigail 08:37 PM 12-14-2010
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Abigail, I really like that idea, I think I'll try that, thanks! That's definitely a kind of active playing I could tolerate and I know they'd love it.
You're welcome. I don't know how many kids you have, but if you have six or less you can have them wait for their turn to run and get the ball and drop it in the bin. If you have more it might be best to team up in two according to size so they don't wait more then a minute and a half to two minutes before they get to run again. You can mix it up and have them run one time, then the next time they hop, then they can gallop....it will make it fun. Just make sure their is nothing they can fall on or hit their head.

You can also designate an area for duck duck goose.
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VTMom 06:03 AM 12-15-2010
I have a 4 1/2 year old like this (he has been for the past year). When we're stuck inside, we do a lot of freeze dance, indoor "bowling" (I cut 3 different sized hole in an upside down box and they use small plastic balls - the kind in ball pits - as the bowling ball), bean bag toss.

My DCB seems to have a lot of issues with boundaries. If others are playing nicely, he'll disrupt them by destroying whatever it is they are doing, screams when others are talking, etc. Intervention doesn't usually work with him either. I'm interested to hear other ideas as well. It's the same here... when he's not here, life is easy! When he is, the majority of my attention is spent on him.
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BentleysBands 06:15 AM 12-15-2010
sounds like my own ds whos 6 .. he was just recently diagnosed with ADHD with Oppositional Disorder ... hes HYPER as all get out . a great kid but a huge temper

and to add to it, i have another ADHD kid in daycare. both my ds and dck are on NO meds by choice so it can be tough to manage.

something that works for my ds is a dixie cup of mountain dew a few times a day when hes home. it works great with hyperactive kids and calms them....mayb try that? if hes truly hyperactive and cant control himself it WILL calm him....if its not adhd it wont do a thing .... our pedi suggested it in the beginning as a 'lets see' idea and long and behold it calms my ds like a dream. not like meds but helps him focus more. i will try and find the article i was given on this experiment too. it was great help
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countrymom 06:30 AM 12-15-2010
maybe look up adhd and see what home remedies work, but why doesn't time outs work. is he worse during the morning or afternoon, what about home, is he like this at home, is he an only child, does he get alot of attention at home or get his own way. How about if he shadows you. The animal noises, I would have a problem with, I would remove and let him sit in my corner. I also think this kid is running you crazy because he can, what are your consequences for some of his nonsense.
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BentleysBands 07:34 AM 12-15-2010
Originally Posted by countrymom:
maybe look up adhd and see what home remedies work, but why doesn't time outs work. is he worse during the morning or afternoon, what about home, is he like this at home, is he an only child, does he get alot of attention at home or get his own way. How about if he shadows you. The animal noises, I would have a problem with, I would remove and let him sit in my corner. I also think this kid is running you crazy because he can, what are your consequences for some of his nonsense.
the animal sounds would drive me bonkers to but i know w/my own ds, he has 'ticks' which normally comes w/adhd and other things. his 'tick' is clucking his tongue...drives me insane but the more i acknowledge the more he does it.
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Blackcat31 07:48 AM 12-15-2010
I don't know, but it sort of sounds like maybe this child has some undiagnosed issue that is beyond a childcare providers realm of management. It can be difficult to manage behaviors if you don't know why he behaves that way. What you described sounds as though this is not within the normal developmental behaviors for a kid his age and he probably needs to see someone so that everyone in his life knows how to manage his behavior. Have the DCP had him assesed yet? I had a similar experience with a child last year and his parents were in complete denial so they never took him in and when he finally got to Kindergarten the school has him in all sorts of specialized education programs....some I truely believe wouldn't have been necessary had the parents took him in earlier than 5 years old.

Challenging behaviors can be so tough! Not only for you, but on the other kids...is he harmful to the other children at all? I can appreciate the fact that the parents appreciate you but most the time it seems the kids who act horrible have parents who are grateful for you because they know no one else is going to put up with it. Situations like this affect everyone in care so it is sooooo HARD!
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Blackcat31 07:53 AM 12-15-2010
Originally Posted by BentleysBands:
something that works for my ds is a dixie cup of mountain dew a few times a day when hes home. it works great with hyperactive kids and calms them....mayb try that? if hes truly hyperactive and cant control himself it WILL calm him....if its not adhd it wont do a thing .... our pedi suggested it in the beginning as a 'lets see' idea and long and behold it calms my ds like a dream. not like meds but helps him focus more. i will try and find the article i was given on this experiment too. it was great help
Wow! That is crazy! I've never heard that before. Wouldn't it make just as much sense to just give them a couple spoonfuls of sugar? LOL!! I totally agree with you though about not medicating a child. I read a book called Ritalin; What Doctors Won't Tell You, and I would NEVER give any meds like that to my kid. I would try every method under the sun first...including Mnt Dew...which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard....
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Unregistered 08:17 AM 12-15-2010
My personal belief is that there IS something going on developmentally with him. He has been assessed for autism but the OT and SLP firmly believed that he was behaving like a normal 3yo boy and closed the file. They went as far as to say "You're going to see a lot more of it from lots of kids so get used to it" basically. While he has a lot of Asperger's-like behaviour, I think more of that stems from being coddled and babied at home. That said, I do feel like there's some ADHD in there as well. The summer went really really well with him, so I began thinking that he could turn it on and off, and therefore it clearly was an issue of defiance. However, during the summer we were obviously outside quite a bit more so he had an outlet for his energy. Now that we're cooped up it's coming out again. I mentioned that to Dad and he instantly got defensive. "I am NOT medicating my child". He cut me off before I could even mention any suggestions so I've just left it alone because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. They've been told by the experts (who observed him at home for about half an hour) that he's perfectly normal so now, despite the fact that they admit he's driving them completely nuts at home, they pretty much don't believe anything that I have to say.

We tried cutting out milk in the past and that didn't do anything. I have heard of giving caffeine to ADD/ADHD kids to help slow them down ... but I don't really feel it's my place to make that decision. Mom is a nurse so I'm sure she knows of that solution but I dunno how to bring it up without mentioning that I think he's got ADHD?

I'm glad, though, to hear others saying that this isn't developmentally normal behaviour for his age. I was starting to think that 4 year olds were brutal! Every child I've terminated has been 4 years old :S
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marniewon 08:42 AM 12-15-2010
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
My personal belief is that there IS something going on developmentally with him. He has been assessed for autism but the OT and SLP firmly believed that he was behaving like a normal 3yo boy and closed the file. They went as far as to say "You're going to see a lot more of it from lots of kids so get used to it" basically. While he has a lot of Asperger's-like behaviour, I think more of that stems from being coddled and babied at home. That said, I do feel like there's some ADHD in there as well. The summer went really really well with him, so I began thinking that he could turn it on and off, and therefore it clearly was an issue of defiance. However, during the summer we were obviously outside quite a bit more so he had an outlet for his energy. Now that we're cooped up it's coming out again. I mentioned that to Dad and he instantly got defensive. "I am NOT medicating my child". He cut me off before I could even mention any suggestions so I've just left it alone because I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. They've been told by the experts (who observed him at home for about half an hour) that he's perfectly normal so now, despite the fact that they admit he's driving them completely nuts at home, they pretty much don't believe anything that I have to say.

We tried cutting out milk in the past and that didn't do anything. I have heard of giving caffeine to ADD/ADHD kids to help slow them down ... but I don't really feel it's my place to make that decision. Mom is a nurse so I'm sure she knows of that solution but I dunno how to bring it up without mentioning that I think he's got ADHD?

I'm glad, though, to hear others saying that this isn't developmentally normal behaviour for his age. I was starting to think that 4 year olds were brutal! Every child I've terminated has been 4 years old :S
Don't automatically assume that because mom's a nurse that she knows of all (or even any) natural home remedies. They don't teach them in nursing school. Or med school. If a doctor knows of them, it's because he/she has researched it themselves, not because it was taught in school. A good place to look for home remedies is www.earthclinic.com. They have some out-there ideas, but I have tried some of them for different ailments, and some do work.

I would set up a meeting/conference with dcp's - without child there. Explain to them what's been going on, and let them know that he needs to be re-assessed. Let them know that there are natural ways to deal with different behaviors without resorting to meds. Is he close to going to school? They will definitely assess him there, but in the meantime, you need to find a way to care for this boy without losing your mind! You could even suggest a naturopath/natural doctor, who would be able to assess and "treat" the child naturally.
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Blackcat31 08:55 AM 12-15-2010
How about the other kids? Is he harmful to them at all? I would be worried about the other parents and what they feel affects their children in regards to this little boy. I would hate to lose a family because of another family....
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Unregistered 12:02 PM 12-15-2010
No he isn't aggressive to the other kids at all. He's just clueless He WAS an aggressive 2 year old, but he's really gotten past that. Lately he's gone back to throwing tantrums though, which is something that I really never saw out of him before, though apparently he's the king of tantrums at home.

marniewon, you suggest having him reassessed, but unfortunately they won't assess for ADD/ADHD here until they are in school. The OT who assessed him for autism hinted to me that she thought PERHAPS there could be an attention issue when he gets to school but she's not willing to entertain that thought further until he is older. But I specifically remember one day when he was literally vibrating. So wound up and out of control that I'd had enough, I told him to sit in the quiet spot until his body was calm and it literally took 5 minutes until he had stopped shaking and twitching and vocalizing. I literally have to hold him and be RIGHT in his face for him to focus on anything that I have to say. Sometimes I have to hold his head still so he's not turning to look at everything else in the room. His parents repeat themselves a million times to him but otherwise don't appear to do anything to encourage him to pay attention ...
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Unregistered 12:16 PM 12-15-2010
OK, I know that I might get flamed for this but it needs to be said. Medicating a child for ADHD is sometimes necessary. I have 2 dcbs that are brothers and they both have ADHD and they are both medicated for it. I've seen them without meds and I've seen them with the meds and I can say in all honesty that the meds have only helped the boys. My daughter was on meds until she got into 6th grade and then decided to see if she could handle school without the meds. She's doing great and I'm thankful for that. The meds that are prescribed for ADHD have really come a long way since the invention of ritalin. I hated what ritalin did to my daughter so we tried a few other meds and dosages and then we found success in adderall xr.

This kid described in the OP's post sounds like he is really not in control of himself and that is a bad situation for everyone. How can the OP feel good about turning her back for even a minute when she has a kid who is like a ticking bomb ready to go off? Is the OP afraid to leave the child out of sight for any amount of time because of what the child might do to the other kids? At the child's age, he should have the ability to exhibit some self control. If this kid hasn't been evaluated by a medical professional, then maybe it's time that he is. I know that there are a lot of people who are very anti-meds and that's fine as long as there is a plan in place to deal with behaviors that come up with ADHD.
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Blackcat31 01:28 PM 12-15-2010
I'm sure I'll get some backlash as well but Adderall is an amphetamaine just like Ritalin. It's a drug. A drug for an illness that has no test or sure fire way to diagnose. (For the record the only drug on the market that I know of that isn't an amphetamine is Straterra) ADD/ADHD diagnosis is all based on what the people observing the child say. One person's opinion of hyperactive is completely different than someone else's. My son was told in Kindergarten that he has ADHD because he couldn't sit still and talked out of turn...?!? Well, um yeah, he is 5 and he comes from a family that is full of high activity. He'd also never been in a setting that required him to sit and listen for long periods of time. I will never put down anyone who does choose to medicate their child because that is their choice. I am sure some people would say it helped. But I believe that it may not have, the improvement may have come with maturity or positive reinforcement or whatever behavior management their caregiver chose to use. The only long term studies that have been done about the use of amphetamines for young children whose brains are still growing and developing has come back as negative. IMO, only 3% of the millions of children diagnosed with ADHD/ADD actually have it. I know they have brain scans that can be done to diagnose and until they begin using that method as a standard for diagnosis, I feel it is just a blanket illness they place on kids who challenge us a little more than others. Now days, kids can't run or play or mess around like kids used to do so we med them and call it ADHD/ADD just to pacify ourselves. And just to reiterate, THIS IS JUST MY PERSONAL OPINION....I MEAN NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE!!! I DO NOT THINK LESS OR MORE OF ANYONE ELSE FOR THEIR CHOICES...I am simply stating mine.
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BentleysBands 02:22 PM 12-15-2010
I think its diff. for each child. My now 18yr old son had/has adhd and we DID do meds starting at 5yrs old and it worked wonders for him . We stopped meds when he entered middle school for many reasons and his request and he hasnt had any since...and graduating with A's and B's

but our 6yr old, we are trying NO meds. since i know the side effects they cause. Alot of it is parents dealing and coping with things thats hardest IMO...but this time around we have alot of support from the internet,forums and support groups. its so much easier to cope when you as the parent and even provider has support.
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Blackcat31 02:34 PM 12-15-2010
Originally Posted by BentleysBands:
I think its diff. for each child. My now 18yr old son had/has adhd and we DID do meds starting at 5yrs old and it worked wonders for him . We stopped meds when he entered middle school for many reasons and his request and he hasnt had any since...and graduating with A's and B's

but our 6yr old, we are trying NO meds. since i know the side effects they cause. Alot of it is parents dealing and coping with things thats hardest IMO...but this time around we have alot of support from the internet,forums and support groups. its so much easier to cope when you as the parent and even provider has support.
I agree...support is probably the #1 thing parents with children who have challenging behavior are lacking. If we all had the necessary support system imagine the possibilities!!! That's why we are here on this forum...right?
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SilverSabre25 03:02 PM 12-15-2010
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Wow! That is crazy! I've never heard that before. Wouldn't it make just as much sense to just give them a couple spoonfuls of sugar? LOL!! I totally agree with you though about not medicating a child. I read a book called Ritalin; What Doctors Won't Tell You, and I would NEVER give any meds like that to my kid. I would try every method under the sun first...including Mnt Dew...which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard....
It's not the sugar; it the caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant, just like most ADHD medications. The stimulants are what settle the ADHD children (I forget the science behind it, but it makes sense). I actually manage my ADD with caffeine--I can tell when I'm starting to need a caffeine hit and can tell a very quick difference after I've had some.
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Unregistered 11:44 AM 12-16-2010
Originally Posted by SilverSabre25:
It's not the sugar; it the caffeine. Caffeine is a stimulant, just like most ADHD medications. The stimulants are what settle the ADHD children (I forget the science behind it, but it makes sense). I actually manage my ADD with caffeine--I can tell when I'm starting to need a caffeine hit and can tell a very quick difference after I've had some.
I've known some people who give their kids something caffeinated it the mornings because of the caffeine's affect. I have ADHD and I can definitely feel a difference in myself on the days when I don't drink any pop versus the days that I do. It helps me to feel a little less squirrelly. Unfortunately, my ADHD symptoms are beyond the help that caffeine can give me, so I am on adderall for it. I also use schedules, lists and the like for helping me with my organization shortcomings.
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dEHmom 02:38 PM 12-16-2010
I do apologize, I didn't read through ALL over the above advice, But I know I had the same problem with a 3 yr old (he was twice the size of my 4 year old!).

I found talking to the mom, and advising her that some of the foods/snacks she was providing him were not going to be fed to him regardless, but maybe at home she should consider some other alternative.

He had a high sugar intake. Alot of garbage!

I gave him a lot of water during the days, made him have a "quiet time" when all the others were napping, and of course, fed him healthy foods and snacks!

Such a great improvement.

I don't know whether this boy you have has a high sugar intake, and I'm assuming it's not given by you if he does, but regardless it's still in his system right?! Whether it's sugared cereal in the morning, maybe that fake apple juice? Who knows, so many sources it could come from, but taking that out of his diet, or reducing it will show a great improvement.

My own blood children no longer get to drink anything that is not pure juice, and even that is in moderation. They used to get so many treats from grandparents, and us, and juices like koolaid, etc, and they were always moody, and a little on the hyper side. Once those were removed and little bit more strict routines, WOW. Everyone always compliments me on the kids and how well behaved they are.
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booroo 06:39 PM 12-16-2010
I think its time for the parents to have him evaluated...

Side note.... get some knee high panty hose fill them with some kind of stuffing, a soft stuffing, I used batting for quilts... tie them off..... now you can have an indoor snowball fight, only the snow is soft... I also have them and I cut a snowman out of cardboard box, painted it up, cut out the belly and we throw them through it...
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Abigail 06:59 PM 12-16-2010
Originally Posted by Abigail:
Create gym games that you are in charge of that would be safe inside. Make one a team effort where you can put some balls in a bucket on one end of the room and have everyone line up by you. Have them run, grab one ball, and put it in a bucket by you. You can time it in general and have it be a goal that everyone works together to get it done in so-many minutes. One at a time rule will prevent many kids from running, just teach them to wait their turn and it should be every minute. While they wait they should learn to cheer on their team mate and clap. You can also do skipping, jumping jacks, or other movement ideas that will get them moving but not so chaotic that it's disruptive. Try doing this once or twice a day when you need it. You could also say if they're cheer quietly you will turn on the music.

Please share with us if anything works.
To the original poster: Did you try this yet?
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Unregistered 07:14 AM 12-17-2010
As soon as I calm down I always feel guilty about how I sometimes rant about this child. I looked back at the situations and while he does drive me mental it always comes down to get over it and take him outside for me I looked at some Ages & Stages for 4 year olds yesterday, looking for anything to bring up to Mom and the only leg I can find to stand on is to tell her to stop babying him and that will probably dramatically improve his behaviour. They picked up and Dad immediately picked this 70 pound child up and carried him around and out to the car. On top of being informed that he was really upset and coming yesterday "because of the older kids, which isn't like him at all, he loves coming to play here!"..... Clearly I know the issue isn't the older kids, as they are unbelievably tolerant of HIS unruly behaviour, the issue is that he isn't King Poop of Turd Mountain around here!

Anyway, Abigail, I actually have been on the hunt for a bunch of ball-pit type balls to be play this game with and got some yesterday. I will be trying it as soon as I have a day where we can't be outside, because otherwise our schedule is so jam-packed there really isn't any time to play it indoors.
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MissAnn 05:52 AM 02-19-2016
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Wow! That is crazy! I've never heard that before. Wouldn't it make just as much sense to just give them a couple spoonfuls of sugar? LOL!! I totally agree with you though about not medicating a child. I read a book called Ritalin; What Doctors Won't Tell You, and I would NEVER give any meds like that to my kid. I would try every method under the sun first...including Mnt Dew...which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard....
It's the caffeine. It's a stimulant and works on kids with ADHD. Ritalin is also a stimulant. Some kids need the medication. ADHD is both under diagnosed and over diagnosed. I don't judge the use of medication. Sometimes it's truly a lifesaver especially with the very impulsive kids who run out into the street in front of cars and other dangerous things.
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Thriftylady 06:32 AM 02-19-2016
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Wow! That is crazy! I've never heard that before. Wouldn't it make just as much sense to just give them a couple spoonfuls of sugar? LOL!! I totally agree with you though about not medicating a child. I read a book called Ritalin; What Doctors Won't Tell You, and I would NEVER give any meds like that to my kid. I would try every method under the sun first...including Mnt Dew...which is the weirdest thing I've ever heard....
DD had a friend (in middle school she has since moved), who had adhd, and she drank coffee. It did really help. Something about the caffeine.
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Tags:behavior problems, hyper, out of control
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