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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Top 5 List Revisit. 2012
Cat Herder 06:17 AM 03-01-2012
Providers:

If something catastrophic happened making it such that you had to go to work outside of your home (no loop hole passes, please ) and forced you to place your own young children in childcare (no "mine are grown" or "I'd move back in with my parents first" passes please )....


Parents:

If you had to start a new childcare search, today.....


What would be the top 5 things you would need to see or hear to make you feel secure with your choice? If you can, give an explanation of why each is important to you.

Thank you!!!
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Zoe 06:23 AM 03-01-2012
1) A friendly welcoming and honest person (hard to see if they're really honest, but you get the idea)

2) A clean house-no smoke smell

3) Age-appropriate toys and playground equipment

4) Proper napping area with enough room for the number of kids she watches

-scary side note: I once went to a provider's home when I worked outside the home and she literally was a hoarder and told me that she just lets the kids sleep where they fall. If that means a chair, the floor, whatever, she doesn't use beds, cribs or naps, and lets them fall asleep whenever. Then she picked up ink off the floor, said where did that come from, threw it behind her, and I left.

5) Room to play

Tough to come up with a top five with the kids I have today...very distracted! But that's what I came up with.
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Ariana 06:39 AM 03-01-2012
Great question! The list I'm going to make doesn't mean that these things will make a perfect provider. It's just a list of things I would hope the perfect provider had but lots of great providers don't have them.

1) Education in Early Childhood Development. I would like my provider to understand child development and the different ages and stages and how to help kids through them. I have an education in this area and it has been inavaluable to me in this field.

2) Someone with a young and fresh approach. Someone with lots of energy and enthusiasm and ideas/creativity. This will give me an indicaton that this person isn't 'set in their ways' and is willing to try a new approach to entertaining kids and using discipline.

3) Definately someone who shares my ideas of discipline. Uses a more gentle approach when it comes to issues with children. Treats all children with respect instead of treating them like minions of the devil This is very important to me because I've seen so much disrespect towards children in my experience in centres. I would never want my child to experience that. It can have devastating effects on childrens self esteem and trustng of other people.

4) A wholistic approach towards health and nutrition. Good food with vegetarian options. Organic if possible and just a general "zen" approach to life. It would be great if the daycare provider was into yoga or a Waldorf type of philosophy. This would be important to me because this is how my family is and it would be good to have that continuation at daycare. I would hate for my kid to go to daycare and get hot dogs and junk food every week when we don't serve that stuff at home. It would create major problems!

5) A welcoming home with lots of natural light, comfortable child sized furniture, sections for different types of play. A focus on play with a circle time for songs, stories, poems. This is important because I want my kid to be a kid and be in an environment that is supportive of learning through play.

Wow!! That was hard but looking back this is exactly my daycare!! LOL I guess that's why I stay at home
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JenNJ 06:43 AM 03-01-2012
1) I would be very particular about the space. I would ideally want a LARGE dedicated playspace for the kids (I would need to know the number of kids that would be in the space daily so I could see if my kids was going to have enough room). Room for my child/ren to play alone if they wanted to. It would need lots of natural light -- no basement daycares.

2) Cleanliness -- specifically floors, bathrooms, and kitchen. It can be messy, but not dirty. I understand disorganization when caring for kids, but not filth.

3) I would need the provider to have children of her own. I know it isn't fair, but I need that to feel comfortable.

4) Real food. I would want whole grains, real meat and dairy products, 100% juices, and homemade meals. As much unprocessed, homemade food as possible. It doesn't need to be super healthy all the time, just whole foods.

5) A large, safe outdoor play area adjacent to the daycare. Preferably enclosed with no bodies of water or trampolines nearby.

**This is exactly why I started doing this job. I would be an impossible to please daycare parent -- unless my kids came here, lol!**
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Blackcat31 06:49 AM 03-01-2012
Here are my top 5 areas of importance that would be a deciding factor in choosing a provider; (not in any particular order)

1) Communication: I would want the provider to talk WITH me, not AT me about all her rules/policies etc. I want to have a meaningful conversation about the values she has as a provider and for her to listen to my values as a parent. (During this conversation, things would have to "click" so that I felt we had a common bond of some sort....hope that makes sense.)

2) Food: the kind of food she offers and what value she places on the foods she serves. Does she make things home made or from boxes and cans, does she see the benefits of eating healthy. I would also like to know her attitude towards clean plates and having to eat or not eat.

3) Health: What condition physically and mentally is she in? Does she have a positive attitude? Does she feel confident and sure about her job and the quality of the job she does? Does she have a good illness policy in place and does she enforce it?

4) References: Does she have references from previous families. Are they positive or negative? I care what past clients have to say, both good and bad. I don't want to hear sugar coated fluff reviews of her child care and services, but "real" thoughts from families who are no longer in her care.

5) Training/Education: Does she do the bare minimum for required trainings or does she go above and beyond to better herself both professionally and personally. I want to know that she is able to not only change with the times but is knowledgeable abbout children and their development. I want her to be a resource for me when I have issues with my child and need advice, support or just someone to tell me it is or isn't normal.

**I want to add that I used the pronoun "she" but want to be very clear that if I found a male provider to have the qualities I wanted in a provider, I would not hesitate to choose him.
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cheerfuldom 06:50 AM 03-01-2012
1. someone who is honest. passes a background check and has a good reputation with current and past parent references

2. Child friendly home and backyard. Someplace tidy, cleaned regularly, up to safety standards.

3. Traditional views on child rearing, preferably a Christian household. Someone willing to cloth diaper, offer wholesome food, offer plenty of play and outside time (minimal to no electronics, screens, etc)

4. Someone who has a reasonable ratio and regular assistance. i would be concerned if they have some of their own children in the daycare mix, I know first hand that that is very hard balance.

5. Non-smoker, no pets, no transporting my kids, I have to know who else lives in the house, no visitors during daycare hours, works on a regular routine with the kids, nice neighborhood (sorry that is not one thing, just the last thoughts I had)

As you can see, I don't highly value a specific education. I think an experienced person can be just a good at their job. I am also not big on curriculum for youngsters outside of just ABCs.....not an onslaught of worksheets and forced participation. I could not find ANY providers that last time I looked (5 years ago) that were all these things.
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cheerfuldom 06:52 AM 03-01-2012
Jen, what about a walkout basement? I have a basement daycare flooded with natural light thanks to the huge sliding glass door to the backyard.
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Ariana 06:55 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
Jen, what about a walkout basement? I have a basement daycare flooded with natural light thanks to the huge sliding glass door to the backyard.
Me too!
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Sunchimes 07:04 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by JenNJ:

3) I would need the provider to have children of her own. I know it isn't fair, but I need that to feel comfortable.
Jen, just curious. Do you mean someone who has never had children, someone whose children left home many years ago, or someone who has children at home now. It's an interesting thought, I had never considered it having a bearing on things.
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JenNJ 07:12 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
Jen, what about a walkout basement? I have a basement daycare flooded with natural light thanks to the huge sliding glass door to the backyard.
That would be fine. I don't consider walk out basements basements. They are just a lower lever to a home. Like a split level home with the daycare downstairs would be great if there was big windows and a door. I guess I would really just not want those tiny little typical basement windows and no way to get directly outside. For both safety and scenery reasons.
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momofboys 07:15 AM 03-01-2012
1) Smoke-free environment
2) Someone who can communicate well - who is passionate about what they do & can tell me exactly what my kids would be doing throughout the day.
3) Verifiable references & experience
4) Clean home but doesn't have to be perfect
5) Appears to be loving/friendly individual, seems happy to see my kids arrive, concerned about their well-being
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Breezy 07:15 AM 03-01-2012
Great question!! I have considered working outside the home but keep telling myself that unless I can place him with one of you I couldnt put him in daycare!
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Country Kids 07:16 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
1. someone who is honest. passes a background check and has a good reputation with current and past parent references

2. Child friendly home and backyard. Someplace tidy, cleaned regularly, up to safety standards.

3. Traditional views on child rearing, preferably a Christian household. Someone willing to cloth diaper, offer wholesome food, offer plenty of play and outside time (minimal to no electronics, screens, etc)

4. Someone who has a reasonable ratio and regular assistance. i would be concerned if they have some of their own children in the daycare mix, I know first hand that that is very hard balance.

5. Non-smoker, no pets, no transporting my kids, I have to know who else lives in the house, no visitors during daycare hours, works on a regular routine with the kids, nice neighborhood (sorry that is not one thing, just the last thoughts I had)

As you can see, I don't highly value a specific education. I think an experienced person can be just a good at their job. I am also not big on curriculum for youngsters outside of just ABCs.....not an onslaught of worksheets and forced participation. I could not find ANY providers that last time I looked (5 years ago) that were all these things.
Do you think it would be hard to find someone without children since that is one of the main reasons most people start doing this, to stay home with their children?
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JenNJ 07:20 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Sunchimes:
Jen, just curious. Do you mean someone who has never had children, someone whose children left home many years ago, or someone who has children at home now. It's an interesting thought, I had never considered it having a bearing on things.
If she had biological children, foster children, adopted children, raised her siblings kids, whatever. I don't care if those kids are 40 or they are integrated in the current daycare.

I want my kids in a home daycare where the caregiver has direct experience with having 100% responsibility over the child. She knows the "look" of a sick child and has that intuition to know when something is not right or "off" with a child. I want to know she has been in the trenches and come out the other side.

It may seem silly to some, but I started my career in professional childcare before having my own kids. While I was excellent at my job then, I find it much easier to "know" now that I am a mom myself. I want my provider to understand that I am leaving my WORLD in her care. That I would break inside if something were ever to happen to my child. I want her to know how hard it would be for me to leave my kid and be able to level with me as a parent. I would want suggestions if my child was struggling -- not from an education standpoint, from another parents perspective. I am one who believes it takes a village.
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Sunchimes 07:22 AM 03-01-2012
I'm going to put aside the obvious, like background check, no smoking, and a safe home, because I think we all want that. The other things are;

1. I would want the home to be a home that welcomes children and where they are comfortable. I don't want them in a place where "Don't touch, don't sit, don't, don't don't" is the theme. If you don't want them to touch the fragile things, move them higher. Teaching kids not to touch is absolutely necessary, I want my child to be welcome where ever they go because they know not to touch, but they don't need to be afraid to move all day.

2. I want to see her with the other kids. Do the kids love her, trust her? Does she respect them in return? I think you can learn more by watching than by talking. I'd like it if she greeted my child before she greeted me. I wouldn't mind waiting while she asks about their weekend or notices their new shirt.

3. I want a partner. I want her to tell me how she does things, listen to how I want things done, and reach a mid-point. Something like, I want my child to nap twice a day. At her house, kids nap once a day. But she listens, realizes there is a valid reason for it, and we find a way for him to get his extra nap. Or, she plays outside an hour a day. I'm worried about sun exposure. After hearing her experience, I see that it would be ok. I like a degree of compromise on both sides when necessary. If I am trying to potty train too early, she should tell me her experience. Not good examples, but you get my drift.

4. I want a small group-no more than 4, counting mine. In a home setting with one person, that's enough for me. I probably wouldn't pick one that hired a parade of assistants. I know the turnover and I'd like more consistency in care givers.

5. Honesty. If my child is causing a problem, or I'm causing a problem, don't stew about it--tell me. Nothing is going to be solved unless we work together. I'm not good at picking up hints or nuances, just say what you want to say. I'm tough.
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Sunchimes 07:28 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by JenNJ:
If she had biological children, foster children, adopted children, raised her siblings kids, whatever. I don't care if those kids are 40 or they are integrated in the current daycare.

I want my kids in a home daycare where the caregiver has direct experience with having 100% responsibility over the child. She knows the "look" of a sick child and has that intuition to know when something is not right or "off" with a child. I want to know she has been in the trenches and come out the other side.

It may seem silly to some, but I started my career in professional childcare before having my own kids. While I was excellent at my job then, I find it much easier to "know" now that I am a mom myself. I want my provider to understand that I am leaving my WORLD in her care. That I would break inside if something were ever to happen to my child. I want her to know how hard it would be for me to leave my kid and be able to level with me as a parent. I would want suggestions if my child was struggling -- not from an education standpoint, from another parents perspective. I am one who believes it takes a village.
Makes sense. My step-kids came to me closer to driver's license than day care, and when I was a house mother at the children's home, I had teenage boys. So, in all honesty, I haven't had much experience with babies. When I got my first dcbaby, I tried to pass her by, out of fear. Her mom just said, "We will learn together". And we have, and she has thrived, as have the 2 babies since then. But, I understand the concern and would probably have it myself. No probably about it--I did have it and they weren't even my kids. Luckily, all 3 chose to trust me, and now their WORLD has become my world. I would die for any of my kids. It surprised me when I realized how important they were to me.
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cheerfuldom 07:32 AM 03-01-2012
I don't mean someone without children....just that I wouldn't go with someone that had several of their own children within the daycare mix.....basically, someone like me, ha ha! I have a 4 year old, 2 year old and a 9 month old. It is very hard to meet the needs of them plus daycare kids and this is one of the reasons that I am downsizing and eventually, getting out of daycare. I would prefer someone with older kids, someone with a younger child if the provider still had a lot of experience, someone with school aged children where I feel that they can still handle all the kids on the days when school is out. I like the idea of direct experience as jen said but coming from first hand experience, I wouldn't want the provider feeling like they are overwhelmed or that they are having to choose between their kids and the daycare kids. I did fine with my two kids and doing daycare but once the third child came along, it is just a whole different story for now.
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Cat Herder 07:49 AM 03-01-2012
I'd want:

(first know centers are automatically excluded for me, I grew up in them so my viewpoint is valid for me.

Sorry if anything I say offends anyone, not my intent, this is just what I'd want for my own kids. I am the worlds worst PITA mom and I know it. I am irrational (maybe even ridiculously so) and protective when it comes to my kids safety. Yep, I said it. )

1. Someone with 10+ years in Childcare, or work experience in Business/Human Resources Management. (a strong person who can look me in the eye and tell me I am being ridiculous and discuss a solution with a smile on their face ) This is important, to me, because the number one cause of child abuse/neglect is provider burnout. The number one cause of that is dealing with the business side of childcare, not the care of the kids. I also don't want to deal with constant policy changes or contracts that are chaotic. The closings calendar should be available a year in advance (barring emergencies). I am uber organized and I expect the same.

2. Someone with a strong working knowledge of Child Development, Nutrition and Infection Control/ Injury Prevention (not "Early Education", I'll worry about my own child's education, that is MY job). I'd rather have someone who knows about SIDS, Positional Asphyxiation, Choking Hazards, First Aid, CPR, Allergies, Anaphylaxis, Emergency Preparedness, etc. than someone who knows how to prepare disadvantaged kids for kindergarten any day. Hands down. I would pay extra for someone who had training and a program focus in nutrition. I feel inadequate in that area and that would be something exciting for me to have access to.

3. Someone who is a parent, but does not have their own kids as part of the daycare group. I am human, I can not treat other peoples kids with the same emotional fairness as my own during a conflict.... As a flawed human, I don't think anyone else can or will either. That is also why my own were never part of my groups. It is a really big issue to me... admittedly born from my own childhood experiences and probably horribly unfair.

4. Clean floors, tables, toys, cubbies, linens and baseboards but HIS/HER desk, cabinets and shelves are a nightmare. Those things tell me what I need to know about their nature. Kids needs come first... If every piece of their clothing has paint or bleach stains, she/he get's extra points.

5. Awesome setup. Someone with large indoor/outdoor play areas. Divided play spaces available for individual and group play. Structured and Free play times. All kids in same room during nap times. Supervised nap times. Infants completely (physically, not visually) separated from toddlers (except during structured playtime) and NO restraint equipment. I know this, in my heart, born of experience both personal and professional, to be the best set-up for happy, calm, grinning, intelligent, free spirited, imaginative, goofy , kissy faced kids.
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cheerfuldom 08:16 AM 03-01-2012
Cat, so by #5 you mean a baby zone but no exersaucers, jumpers or bouncers. I am assuming high chairs are okay? just wondering.
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Cat Herder 08:28 AM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
Cat, so by #5 you mean a baby zone but no exersaucers, jumpers or bouncers. I am assuming high chairs are okay? just wondering.
High chairs only during scheduled feeding times. Again, only because of my own personal experiences and issues.

I cannot tell you how many people I had to write up over the years who abused high chairs by tossing a few cheerios on the tray to be able to keep their "difficult" child restrained for HOURS on end.

The kids "ate" for 6 out of 10 hours a day....

I love excersaucers and bouncers...when used appropriately.... BUT if the provider used them here, I would know she was operating illegally. They are now against regs for childcare. I would have nightmares about what other regs she blows off.... YKWIM? I am type A like that.
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Cat Herder 10:44 AM 03-01-2012
No other takers?

Everyone is being so open minded and respectful....

It really is fascinating to hear other viewpoints...
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SunshineMama 12:57 PM 03-01-2012
1. Safe, clean environment, with a lot of square footage, more than one play area, and a napping area that is separate from a play area. I want my child to be somewhere with lots of stimulation and options for play. There doesn't have to be a ton of toys, per-se: I like creative play. Dress up clothes, science centers, sensory bins, etc.

2. Somewhere where at they will get at least 1 hour of outdoor play, minimum. The more they are outside the better. Bonus points for swings and play structures.

3. Somewhere that serves (mostly) home-made, all natural or organic ingredient food. No processed food from a can or jar. Natural PB&J is fine with me! Anything with high fructose corn syrup = not fine. I want a provider that shares my outlook on health and wellness. PLEASE don't kill me for saying this: But I want a provider who is physically fit as well. Yes, you can be slightly overweight and physically fit, but I would never hire a slouch. Before I did daycare, my first nanny was a slouch- I justified that appearance doesn't matter, but it really does. She was very overweight, lazy, online too much, too much TV, and she didn't physically engage my kids. You really can't chase and play with kids all day and still be obese, unless all you are doing is sitting down while you observe the kids play and never play with them. If you cant or wont even take care of your own appearance, what kind of care are you offering my kids. (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't get mad at me for saying this- just my own opinion: does not mean it is RIGHT, and it stems from my own bad experience....) But, other parents may have had the same experience in the past so I am adding it to the list.

4. Provider must use proper grammer and speak well, enforce manners, command respect and discipline, and make my child follow the rules, while being loving and caring, and showing an interest in my child. IE: When my child comes over to you to show you something, don't ignore her for being "annoying," listen to her and respect her as an individual. I want my child to feel important, without feeling like they have to be the center of attention all the time. Bonus points for "working" with my child to learn to read, spell, write, etc.

5. I would want another child in the same age or developmental level as my child, so they would have someone to play with on their level. This isn't as important for the little one, but my 3.5 year old needs another 3.5 or 4 year old to play with. (When I took on another 3.5 year old to care for, my dd went from the instigator to a perfect angel. She was bored I think. So now, I have 1 boy and 1 girl the same age- a coincidence but my household equilibrium is very good).

I am one of those parents who have higher expectations, but I would be willing to pay a lot more for those services.

This is a great question! I can't wait to read the other answers.
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SunshineMama 01:09 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:

3. Someone who is a parent, but does not have their own kids as part of the daycare group. I am human, I can not treat other peoples kids with the same emotional fairness as my own during a conflict.... As a flawed human, I don't think anyone else can or will either. That is also why my own were never part of my groups. It is a really big issue to me... admittedly born from my own childhood experiences and probably horribly unfair.
This, exactly! I had my dd in daycare at 5 months, and the OP had a 5 month old dd. It did not work.

When I became a provider, and dd was 9 months old, I took another 9 month old. Big mistake. If there were issues and both needed attention at the same time, I always took care of my dd first. That was not fair to the other baby. I termed after 2 weeks, and I told the parents why. Since then, I have a personal policy to never take a child younger than my youngest.

No matter how kind the provider is, or how much you try, you will always be inclined to attend to your own child first, and you will be biased, in my opinion. I would never send my children to a provider who has young children for that reason.
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Heidi 01:10 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
I'd want:

(first know centers are automatically excluded for me, I grew up in them so my viewpoint is valid for me.

Sorry if anything I say offends anyone, not my intent, this is just what I'd want for my own kids. I am the worlds worst PITA mom and I know it. I am irrational (maybe even ridiculously so) and protective when it comes to my kids safety. Yep, I said it. )

1. Someone with 10+ years in Childcare, or work experience in Business/Human Resources Management. (a strong person who can look me in the eye and tell me I am being ridiculous and discuss a solution with a smile on their face ) This is important, to me, because the number one cause of child abuse/neglect is provider burnout. The number one cause of that is dealing with the business side of childcare, not the care of the kids. I also don't want to deal with constant policy changes or contracts that are chaotic. The closings calendar should be available a year in advance (barring emergencies). I am uber organized and I expect the same.

2. Someone with a strong working knowledge of Child Development, Nutrition and Infection Control/ Injury Prevention (not "Early Education", I'll worry about my own child's education, that is MY job). I'd rather have someone who knows about SIDS, Positional Asphyxiation, Choking Hazards, First Aid, CPR, Allergies, Anaphylaxis, Emergency Preparedness, etc. than someone who knows how to prepare disadvantaged kids for kindergarten any day. Hands down. I would pay extra for someone who had training and a program focus in nutrition. I feel inadequate in that area and that would be something exciting for me to have access to.

3. Someone who is a parent, but does not have their own kids as part of the daycare group. I am human, I can not treat other peoples kids with the same emotional fairness as my own during a conflict.... As a flawed human, I don't think anyone else can or will either. That is also why my own were never part of my groups. It is a really big issue to me... admittedly born from my own childhood experiences and probably horribly unfair.

4. Clean floors, tables, toys, cubbies, linens and baseboards but HIS/HER desk, cabinets and shelves are a nightmare. Those things tell me what I need to know about their nature. Kids needs come first... If every piece of their clothing has paint or bleach stains, she/he get's extra points.

5. Awesome setup. Someone with large indoor/outdoor play areas. Divided play spaces available for individual and group play. Structured and Free play times. All kids in same room during nap times. Supervised nap times. Infants completely (physically, not visually) separated from toddlers (except during structured playtime) and NO restraint equipment. I know this, in my heart, born of experience both personal and professional, to be the best set-up for happy, calm, grinning, intelligent, free spirited, imaginative, goofy , kissy faced kids.
You know SOMEONE is going to whine about #3, and this time it's gotta be me...

I totally understand that you are comming from a different perspective, but I have raised 3/4 of my own kids in dc, and I can honestly say that I have NEVER made a dc child feel "2nd class" because of it.

My youngest is 11 now, so he is more a helper than one of the group.

I almost always agree with you Cat, I guess it's gotta happen sometime...
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Country Kids 01:20 PM 03-01-2012
With Cats #3 I can see what she is saying but I can honestly say that is why my children have a very hard time with me doing childcare and they have grown up with me doing it. I didn't ever put them first, but always the daycare children. Probably wrong of me I know but I was being paid to watch these children and I know that if something were to happen it could have come back on me and having children. I really think its hard but you have to put the daycare kids first I think unless they are being really hard or doing something that will hurt your children.
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daycare 01:25 PM 03-01-2012
I thought my child was benefiting from me being home, instead he is last.........ALWAYS. Sorry I don't agree with #3 either.

I am getting paid to provide a service during those hours and it's very unfortunate that my son has had to learn that mommy is not an octopus and only has two hands. While he always comes first in my heart, he always comes last in anything that has to do with daycare.

In fact just yesterday my son and another child were playing a game that was not safe. I ran to help them get down off the chairs as they were both about to fall and get hurt. I ran to DCK first. Why, I won't sue myself if my child gets hurt, but little johnnys mommy will sue me in a heartbeat......
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Heidi 01:25 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
With Cats #3 I can see what she is saying but I can honestly say that is why my children have a very hard time with me doing childcare and they have grown up with me doing it. I didn't ever put them first, but always the daycare children. Probably wrong of me I know but I was being paid to watch these children and I know that if something were to happen it could have come back on me and having children. I really think its hard but you have to put the daycare kids first I think unless they are being really hard or doing something that will hurt your children.
That just reminded me of something though-when I was 5 or 6, we went to the lady next doors' "daycare" for a while. She ALWAYS gave her kids treats, never us. All she ever said was "go outside and play", and if WE ever had anything (my sis and I) we had to share with her kids. My little friend gave me her one of her Oreos, and dcp's child saw me eat it. I got in SO much trouble for eating in front of her and not "sharing" ONE OREO...

I am 47, and still remember that....41 years later!

Thanks for bringing up long dark memories....CAT HERDER! sniff sniff THere should be a tears-rollong-down-cheeks-in-streams emoticon!
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Ariana 01:45 PM 03-01-2012
I don't put DCK's first!! I treat everyone with dignity and respect of course and try to be equal in everything but my child is my top priority always. My child didn't choose this profession but parents chose to put their child in group care. I chose to stay home to be with my child while taking care of kids. I got a handout at a caregiver's workshop that talks about how it's very important to let your child know they are special when you provide care for others. I agree with it 100%

Giving treats only to your child is ridiculous!! Those are not things I'm talking about. wow that's so sad bbo
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Blackcat31 01:51 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
You know SOMEONE is going to whine about #3, and this time it's gotta be me...

I totally understand that you are comming from a different perspective, but I have raised 3/4 of my own kids in dc, and I can honestly say that I have NEVER made a dc child feel "2nd class" because of it.
My youngest is 11 now, so he is more a helper than one of the group.

I almost always agree with you Cat, I guess it's gotta happen sometime...
bbo~ YOU may not feel as though you ever did that but how do you REALLY ever know that? I mean, kids don't think or feel in a logical and rational manner like (some...LOL!) adults do and although I think I made an extra effort or made a fair decision, it doesn't mean a kid has the same thoughts and feelings.

In the thread about my DH growing up in a daycare, he said his mom had no idea how he REALLY felt so in reality, there is no way you actually know that none of your daycare kids ever felt as though they were or weren't as equal as your own child....kwim?

Another example is sibling rivalry. I read somewhere that no matter how much time, you spend with each child equally they will always feel like you shorted them. They will always feel like if you had 15 minutes to spend with the other child that is so unfair because that was 15 minutes you could have spent with them instead. Kids are so egocentric in their thinking that it is almost impossible to not have DCK's that feel as though they will always be second to the providers child...no matter how hard the provider tries to make sure it is all fair.

There is no such thing as fair and children will be the first to tell you that.
Plus this forum is really good proof that most providers do this job so they can spend time at home with their own children and many comments have been made about how "this is MY child we are talking about......etc etc etc" so you are probably 100% truthful in the fact that you tried to never let a dck feel like a 2nd class citizen but you really don't know that they did or didn't feel that way.

I raised my own kids while doing child care as well. I know I tried really hard to always be fair so DCK's never felt like I treated them differently but I dunno, kids are smart like that and although I believe I didn't treat my own differently, I am not ccompletely convinced.

I hope that all came out right .....I completely and totally agree with Cat Herder on this one. If I were a parent looking for child care, I would absolutely choose one where the provider did not have young children of her own in care while mine is there.
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spud912 01:54 PM 03-01-2012
I like this post!
  1. Provider:
    First and foremost, a provider who I feel comfortable with. We don't have to be best friends, but I think it's important that we communicate well with each other and we share similar basic child-rearing beliefs. I would prefer someone older than 25 (please don't ridicule me on that....in my own experience I think there is a big difference in maturity between a 20 year old and a 25 year old). I do not have an upper limit on age (as long as she can get up and down with ease and can chase after the kids). The provider should have at least 2 years of experience running her own child care and at least 5-10 years with children of all ages. Also, she must be in this field for the right reasons (not "I want a play mate for my child"). I do not care if she has children of her own, as long as her children are well-behaved for the most part and she treats everyone fairly (or close).
  2. Environment:
    Second, a clean and suitable child care environment. There should be a separate daycare area away from the provider's family space. I don't mind if toys are out, but the surfaces should be clean (regular sanitizing of surfaces and toys, clean floors, dishes mostly clean, clean bathrooms, etc.).
  3. Activities:
    The provider should maintain a regular schedule and plan activities accordingly. I prefer little to no "screen" time, including on the computer. I know I differ from all of you, but I would like the provider to do some educational activities and help develop social skills. There should be arts and crafts, both open-ended and sentimental cookie-cutter crafts (I know, I'm cheesy and like them).
  4. Meals:
    The meals should be healthy and homemade with as little processed food as possible. I also like an emphasis on VARIETY! I don't want my child growing up only knowing a few different kinds of foods that are rotated weekly (including fruits and vegetable variety).
  5. Communication:
    This one is very important to me. I want to know what's going on in my children's day and what I have been missing out on (even if it's their firsts). If something happened, good or bad, let me know. I will take as much communication as I can get.

To be honest, I would most likely hire a nanny. If I felt my children lacked in "socialization," I would pay for her to take them to activities or classes or set-up some type of play date.
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kidkair 03:24 PM 03-01-2012
#1 No electronics of any sort. Preferably none even in the rooms the kids will be using so they are not a source of temptation. I do it so I know it can be done.

#2 I would want to find out about what times they go outside and I would drive by during those times to make sure they were actually getting outside. This would be my check on the provider's honesty and see how she interacts with the kids outside.

#3 Knowledge of nutrition and safety above and beyond the gov't guidelines. I'd want to see her cupboards and see that the areas set up for the kids were set with safety in mind. Also I would really rather start my kid at a time when snow is not covering most of the yard so I can fully see the yard and am not surprised by it come spring. Also I would periodically expect to be able to tour the kid areas once my child was attending. Most of my parents have totally forgotten what my kitchen looks like if they did more than just glance during the interview. I would really like to know what my child sees on any given day.

#4 Willingness to accommodate differences among the children such as using different soap if child is allergic to currently used one.

#5 Organized area for kids as well as her paperwork area which to me shows she won't be spending lots of time getting things done in the evening so she can participate in her personal activities quickly once the kids have gone home.

I'd love to hire a nanny too though I feel that requires a lot more trust than a daycare provider.
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Cat Herder 03:29 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
You know SOMEONE is going to whine about #3, and this time it's gotta be me...

I totally understand that you are coming from a different perspective, but I have raised 3/4 of my own kids in dc, and I can honestly say that I have NEVER made a dc child feel "2nd class" because of it.

My youngest is 11 now, so he is more a helper than one of the group.

I almost always agree with you Cat, I guess it's gotta happen sometime...
I knew #3 was going to be a tough one .... and there is no real right answer for me. My Mom was also a provider when I was growing up, but in a center. I was a "center brat" (70's term) until I was old enough to latch key (with a couple year gap of being B/A school/summer with a few home providers)

IME, Center brats either have Moms who put the daycare kids first....

Originally Posted by Country Kids:
I didn't ever put them first, but always the daycare children. Probably wrong of me I know but I was being paid to watch these children and I know that if something were to happen it could have come back on me and having children.
....causing us to resent the other kids, bully when nobody was looking, shut down or be wholly terrors whom nobody wanted to be around.. (This was the path that my Mom and I traveled. )....or their own first (which was the path I felt I was inclined to follow with my own.)

I simply did not want to risk it. I did not want my kids in daycare.

Even though my Mom was in the room... I was at daycare. When I got home she was already tired of me because she spent 12 hours fighting me to keep her job....

I'd prefer a provider not dealing with this issue, that's all. There are enough issues in a given day, I want the stress level as low as humanly possible. It really is 100% my own issue.
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Heidi 03:35 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
bbo~ YOU may not feel as though you ever did that but how do you REALLY ever know that? I mean, kids don't think or feel in a logical and rational manner like (some...LOL!) adults do and although I think I made an extra effort or made a fair decision, it doesn't mean a kid has the same thoughts and feelings.

In the thread about my DH growing up in a daycare, he said his mom had no idea how he REALLY felt so in reality, there is no way you actually know that none of your daycare kids ever felt as though they were or weren't as equal as your own child....kwim?

Another example is sibling rivalry. I read somewhere that no matter how much time, you spend with each child equally they will always feel like you shorted them. They will always feel like if you had 15 minutes to spend with the other child that is so unfair because that was 15 minutes you could have spent with them instead. Kids are so egocentric in their thinking that it is almost impossible to not have DCK's that feel as though they will always be second to the providers child...no matter how hard the provider tries to make sure it is all fair.

There is no such thing as fair and children will be the first to tell you that.
Plus this forum is really good proof that most providers do this job so they can spend time at home with their own children and many comments have been made about how "this is MY child we are talking about......etc etc etc" so you are probably 100% truthful in the fact that you tried to never let a dck feel like a 2nd class citizen but you really don't know that they did or didn't feel that way.

I raised my own kids while doing child care as well. I know I tried really hard to always be fair so DCK's never felt like I treated them differently but I dunno, kids are smart like that and although I believe I didn't treat my own differently, I am not ccompletely convinced.

I hope that all came out right .....I completely and totally agree with Cat Herder on this one. If I were a parent looking for child care, I would absolutely choose one where the provider did not have young children of her own in care while mine is there.
OK, so I should probably clarify.

Of course I treated my own children differently. I treat every child differently, for that matter. It's one of by basic philosophies in raising children: life is not always fair, so get over it now!

What I meant was that I don't treat my own children better than my dc kids.
Of course we don't know what our children or those children are thinking or feeling. I can think of many times as a child (and as an adult even) when I've felt misunderstood. Honestly, though, there are times when you could give two children the exact same thing at the exact same moment, and one would still manage to say "hey......" lol Again, I can honestly say I never treated one of my daycare kids like they were 2nd class, I'm sticking to that.

I don't get too riled up too often, but I felt a little pang there when I read that, because I for one have worked really really hard to take really really good care of my dc kids and make each one feel special and loved!
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Heidi 03:40 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
I knew #3 was going to be a tough one .... and there is no real right answer for me. My Mom was also a provider when I was growing up, but in a center. I was a "center brat" (70's term) until I was old enough to latch key.

IME, Center brats either have Moms who put the daycare kids first....



....causing us to resent the other kids, bully when nobody was looking or be wholly terrors whom nobody wanted to be around.. (This was the path that my Mom and I traveled. )....or their own first (which was the path I felt I was inclined to follow with my own.)

I simply did not want to risk it. I did not want my kids in daycare.

Even though my Mom was in the room... I was at daycare. When I got home she was already tired of me because she spent 12 hours fighting me to keep her job....

I'd prefer a provider not dealing with this issue, that's all. There are enough issues in a given day, I want the stress level as low as humanly possible. It really is 100% my own issue.
I really am not arguing the point, Cat. I was teasing a little. We all make our own decisions based on our own experiences.
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Cat Herder 03:55 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
I really am not arguing the point, Cat. I was teasing a little. We all make our own decisions based on our own experiences.
I know you were not arguing...

I felt I should still clarify for the unregistered whom may not understand where I was coming from.

I discussing the differing viewpoints. I even googled Zen Daycare. I had no picture in my head to go with that except vans painted with flowers....

Interesting concept... I will read more.
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Country Kids 04:00 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
I knew #3 was going to be a tough one .... and there is no real right answer for me. My Mom was also a provider when I was growing up, but in a center. I was a "center brat" (70's term) until I was old enough to latch key (with a couple year gap of being B/A school/summer with a few home providers)

IME, Center brats either have Moms who put the daycare kids first....



....causing us to resent the other kids, bully when nobody was looking, shut down or be wholly terrors whom nobody wanted to be around.. (This was the path that my Mom and I traveled. )....or their own first (which was the path I felt I was inclined to follow with my own.)

I simply did not want to risk it. I did not want my kids in daycare.

Even though my Mom was in the room... I was at daycare. When I got home she was already tired of me because she spent 12 hours fighting me to keep her job....

I'd prefer a provider not dealing with this issue, that's all. There are enough issues in a given day, I want the stress level as low as humanly possible. It really is 100% my own issue.
How did you then put yours first without everyone having an issue with that? Then if you do put yours first don't they in a way think they rule the roost and maybe not respect the dck's. I just really don't hink there is a balance.
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Zoe 04:12 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
I don't get too riled up too often, but I felt a little pang there when I read that, because I for one have worked really really hard to take really really good care of my dc kids and make each one feel special and loved!
I'm right there with you. My kids love having daytime friends here and the daycare kids have a great time at my house. My kids don't get special in front of the daycare kids. If they want special, they have to go into their rooms so the daycare kids don't feel bad. When I was a kid in daycare I hated how the daycare lady's daughter could just go into the fridge and eat whatever she wanted whenever she wanted. I hated that and vowed to never let a daycare kid (to the best of my power) ever feel that way.

I stayed home with my kids and started a daycare and I'm trying hard not to take offense to this post. I get that everyone has different views of the perfect daycare and that's what the thread is for. I just don't like it when members generalize people into groups like that.
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Cat Herder 04:18 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
How did you then put yours first without everyone having an issue with that? Then if you do put yours first don't they in a way think they rule the roost and maybe not respect the dck's. I just really don't hink there is a balance.
I did it the only way I could logically think of. I opened a couple years before I had my kids to make sure I could do it and built up a reputation to sustain me through the pregnancies when I would not be on my A game (B & C shifts). I was 22.

I kept school agers B/A School/Summer when my kids were Infants/Toddlers (had them as close together as humanly possible to make it work). The S/A's liked being role models to the littles and we had the ability to go on any field trip we wanted. We went out (library, lake, arcade, movies, zoo, museums) everyday during the summer. More like camp.

Once my kids were school aged I went to birth-4 and seperated the daycare from our family space.

I have 5 more years and they will all be off to college. They like coming into the daycare to read books, do science projects and circle times with the kids. They like having them here and ask me if they can do it. They even plan their own activities...
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Heidi 04:30 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Country Kids:
How did you then put yours first without everyone having an issue with that? Then if you do put yours first don't they in a way think they rule the roost and maybe not respect the dck's. I just really don't hink there is a balance.
I guess that depends on what "putting yours first" means. Letting your children run amok while you march the dc kids like soldiers?

You make the rules the same for everyone until the minute the daycare kids go home. THEN you let you children run amok! jk no, really, though, I have the same standards for my own kids as the dc kids. I think it's a little harder for me now, because my son is 11 and homeschooled, so sometimes, the rules ARE a little different. He also didn't grow up in daycare, so he's learning the ropes a little late.

Maybe my kids where just so easy going? I don't know They got their "mommy" time when dc was over. During dc time, they all got the same great care....fun, hugs, and love....
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familyschoolcare 05:39 PM 03-01-2012
For the sake of continued good conversation: The people that would prefer a provider that did not have their own children in the daycare mix. What are

you feelings on someone with older children still living at home? Like my situation I have a 7th grader who is 13, a jr. in high school 17, and two step

children that visit one is a sophomore 15, and the other is an 18 year old Jr.



Oh by the way I waited until now to add to this conversation because of the ages of my children I would not need child care.
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Cat Herder 05:50 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by familyschoolcare:
For the sake of continued good conversation: The people that would prefer a provider that did not have their own children in the daycare mix. What are

you feelings on someone with older children still living at home? Like my situation I have a 7th grader who is 13, a jr. in high school 17, and two step

children that visit one is a sophomore 15, and the other is an 18 year old Jr.



Oh by the way I waited until now to add to this conversation because of the ages of my children I would not need child care.
That is a cop out.... Come on.... Play. I have been closed 5 1/2 hours and am home alone....this will NEVER happen again. I don't want to do housework...

IME, The older kids were AWESOME!!!! My own kids walked, talked and hit milestones so much faster. They were like sponges!!!

I did get hit with a few bad (ok, nightmarish ) apples toward the end of keeping SA's... But until them I could not have been happier.

If I trusted the provider...her having older kids would put her over the top for me.
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familyschoolcare 06:05 PM 03-01-2012
Originally Posted by Cat Herder:
That is a cop out.... Come on.... Play. I have been closed 5 1/2 hours and am home alone....this will NEVER happen again. I don't want to do housework...

IME, The older kids were AWESOME!!!! My own kids walked, talked and hit milestones so much faster. They were like sponges!!!

I did get hit with a few bad (ok, nightmarish ) apples toward the end of keeping SA's... But until them I could not have been happier.

If I trusted the provider...her having older kids would put her over the top for me.
I do not think it is a cop out ... but if you realy whant I will play.


1. mixed age group care, I whant to have all my children in the same room so they can "tatle" on each other

2. Some education in child related things

3. A clean home

4. Having some/most of the same values as me perferiably a Christian

5. Good food actual food nutitous wholesome ect.
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nannyde 04:36 AM 03-02-2012
excellent food
excellent supervision and discipline
excellent exercise
excellent sleep
and a lovin Nan to boot
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gbcc 04:58 AM 03-02-2012
Just for a twist... What if you went to a home and you noticed that the provider had 2 children that appeared to be special needs and they were not from the same family. Would you be concerned it was the provider?
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SunshineMama 05:06 AM 03-02-2012
[quote=Cat Herder;203172]

Even though my Mom was in the room... I was at daycare. When I got home she was already tired of me because she spent 12 hours fighting me to keep her job....


This is exactly what I struggle with, as a provider. I get up with my 1 year old at 5:30 every day, watch 6 children total all day, and my day doesnt end until 8:00-8:30, when I get my oldest daughter down. By the time my last daycare kid leaves for the day, I find myself struggling to get enough quality time in with my own children and I feel resentful. When I worked outside of the home, I came home from work and played hard with my own kids for a few hours until bedtime. Now that I do daycare, I am still with my children, but I feel that I lack the energy and enthusiasm that I once had. Then comes the guilt. I don't want to say I'm "tired of" my kids- obviously I love them to pieces, but I just don't feel very playful, if that makes sense.

Does anyone else with young kids feel this way?
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Blackcat31 10:53 AM 03-02-2012
Originally Posted by bbo:
OK, so I should probably clarify.

Of course I treated my own children differently. I treat every child differently, for that matter. It's one of by basic philosophies in raising children: life is not always fair, so get over it now!

What I meant was that I don't treat my own children better than my dc kids.
Of course we don't know what our children or those children are thinking or feeling. I can think of many times as a child (and as an adult even) when I've felt misunderstood. Honestly, though, there are times when you could give two children the exact same thing at the exact same moment, and one would still manage to say "hey......" lol Again, I can honestly say I never treated one of my daycare kids like they were 2nd class, I'm sticking to that.

I don't get too riled up too often, but I felt a little pang there when I read that, because I for one have worked really really hard to take really really good care of my dc kids and make each one feel special and loved!
Please don't think I was implying that you ever treated a kid 2nd class....because that was NOT at all what I meant.

I was just trying to support the fact that I too would prefer a provider who didnt have her own young children in care.

I have chatted with you enough to know you are a very caring and wonderful provider and I never in a million years would iply you treated kids (yours or DCK's differently). Again, I was only trying to state a different perspective.

I think in my own situation that I too, never treated my own kids better or worse than DCK's but I am also realistic enough to know that that is probably not 100% true because my kids were MY kids....kwim? If nay of my DCK's ever felt 2nd rate or if my own kids did ever, I was not aware of it.

We are all human and we all do the best we can with the situation we are in.

So, my apologies if I offended you .....no offense was meant....

I just read Cat's post and your response saying others may have issue with her statement regarding a provider's own children and since I felt the same way, I tried to give my thoughts and perspective about it.
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Lucy 11:05 AM 03-02-2012
Not necessarily in order of preference, but here are mine:

CLEANLINESS (Home as well as Provider. Shows she cares. However, not TOO clean because she might be anal and rag on my kid about every teeny tiny thing)

SPACE (Enough space for the kids to play without being crowded into a small area.)

ATTITUDE/DEMEANOR (I want to see that the Provider seems like she genuinely enjoys her job. I don't want her to be shy, or a person of few words. I want her to be outgoing and energetic and seem like she'd be a positive person.)

EXPERIENCE (I realize you can be just as good if you're new, but if she has 5 or more years under her belt, it would be a huge plus to me. More, actually. Like 10 plus.)

MENU (I'm not a health freak, but I want to know that they have fairly nutritious foods, and not hot dogs and pizza. Those have their place, but I want to know that MOST days, they are getting nutritious foods, per the USDA.)

Ok, you said 5, but here's my shallow person's 6th one:

OTHER KIDS (Sorry, but I would totally be looking at the other kids and seeing if any of them look dirty or mean. Shallow of me, but I know that's what I would do!! At least I can admit it!!)

ETA: I hadn't read the previous responses because I didn't want to be influenced. However, upon reading them, I think I'd have to make it a top 15!! There are some really great ones listed here. I'll leave my 5 as they are, but if I re-did it now, it may be different after seeing some of your other great ideas!! This was a good exercise. Makes you think like the client for a change. Thanks!!
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Lucy 11:16 AM 03-02-2012
Originally Posted by JenNJ:

I want my kids in a home daycare where the caregiver has direct experience with having 100% responsibility over the child. She knows the "look" of a sick child and has that intuition to know when something is not right or "off" with a child. I want to know she has been in the trenches and come out the other side.
I'm not bashing your opinion at all, as it is YOUR opinion. I just wanted to comment that I am 48, married 15 years, but never had children. HOWEVER, I do know ALL those things you listed above. My mother did Childcare from before I was born until I left the home, so I have always been around kids, and witnessed proper ways to care for them via my Mom. I am around nieces and nephews constantly, always have been, and am very close to many of them. I have done DC for almost 18 years, and I feel there is absolutely NO downside to the fact that I never carried and bore a child. I feel like I'm better with kids than some of my friends and relatives!! And I'm soooo into safety at ALL times. I've always had it in my mind how devastating it would be to have something happen to the kids, and that I would NOT want to make "that" phone call. In almost 18 years, I've NEVER had to. I've never had more than a sliver in a finger. Please don't take this as me being mad at what you said, because I'm totally not. I just wanted to point out that it CAN be done.
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AmyLeigh 12:49 PM 03-02-2012
Originally Posted by SunshineMama:
1. Safe, clean environment, with a lot of square footage, more than one play area, and a napping area that is separate from a play area. I want my child to be somewhere with lots of stimulation and options for play. There doesn't have to be a ton of toys, per-se: I like creative play. Dress up clothes, science centers, sensory bins, etc.

2. Somewhere where at they will get at least 1 hour of outdoor play, minimum. The more they are outside the better. Bonus points for swings and play structures.

3. Somewhere that serves (mostly) home-made, all natural or organic ingredient food. No processed food from a can or jar. Natural PB&J is fine with me! Anything with high fructose corn syrup = not fine. I want a provider that shares my outlook on health and wellness. PLEASE don't kill me for saying this: But I want a provider who is physically fit as well. Yes, you can be slightly overweight and physically fit, but I would never hire a slouch. Before I did daycare, my first nanny was a slouch- I justified that appearance doesn't matter, but it really does. She was very overweight, lazy, online too much, too much TV, and she didn't physically engage my kids. You really can't chase and play with kids all day and still be obese, unless all you are doing is sitting down while you observe the kids play and never play with them. If you cant or wont even take care of your own appearance, what kind of care are you offering my kids. (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE don't get mad at me for saying this- just my own opinion: does not mean it is RIGHT, and it stems from my own bad experience....) But, other parents may have had the same experience in the past so I am adding it to the list.

4. Provider must use proper grammer and speak well, enforce manners, command respect and discipline, and make my child follow the rules, while being loving and caring, and showing an interest in my child. IE: When my child comes over to you to show you something, don't ignore her for being "annoying," listen to her and respect her as an individual. I want my child to feel important, without feeling like they have to be the center of attention all the time. Bonus points for "working" with my child to learn to read, spell, write, etc.

5. I would want another child in the same age or developmental level as my child, so they would have someone to play with on their level. This isn't as important for the little one, but my 3.5 year old needs another 3.5 or 4 year old to play with. (When I took on another 3.5 year old to care for, my dd went from the instigator to a perfect angel. She was bored I think. So now, I have 1 boy and 1 girl the same age- a coincidence but my household equilibrium is very good).

I am one of those parents who have higher expectations, but I would be willing to pay a lot more for those services.

This is a great question! I can't wait to read the other answers.
ummmm.....this...exactly.
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BigMama 10:24 AM 03-05-2012
I am going to assume the provider is licensed, has education in early childhood, no criminal history, and has a pleasant demeanor. I am also going to assume the house is tidy, safe, and there is ample space for the children to play.

1) A diverse group of children and families. Diverse in any and every way.

2) A program that is developmentally appropriate for young children. No packaged curriculum but much more than "go play toys."

3) The provider must speak to the children as if they were people - not a lesser life form. No baby talk, high pitched voices, referring to self in third person, using poor grammar, etc.

4) Someone who does not use time-out as a "discipline" technique for toddlers and preschoolers.

5) Someone who I can see myself spending time with. Not that the provider and I would be friends, but if I wouldn't spend an afternoon with the person, how can expect my child to spend their days there?
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Tags:choose appropriate childcare, choose the right provider, choosing daycare, parent, provider
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