Default Style Register
Daycare.com Forum
Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Defiant 3 Yr Old
lovemykidstoo 11:04 AM 04-11-2013
Tell me if this is mean. I have a 3 yr old dcb that has been very defiant lately and hitting and pushing the other kids non-stop. I have taken toys away from him, time out, lay on nap mat ect. Nothing works. Talked to parents about it, they seem angry at first, but then allow him to control so many things when he's with them. For instance, mom HAS to lay with him every night for him to go to sleep, he HAS to bring a stuffed animal everyday he comes here. Last week when dad picked up he wanted to put his sweatshirt on. Dad put it on him, the dcb took it off and said that HE wanted to put it on, so he was almost done putting it on and dad tried to help so dcb got mad and took it totally off again and said that he wanted to do it. He did this 3 times. Dad allowed it. So obviously they just let him do whatever. Today I have run out of ideas on how to give him an incentive to not hit. He body slammed another dcb earlier so I told him that was it, if I see it again, he is not getting his blanket that he brings from home for nap. Well, right before nap he walked up and smacked a second dcb in the face. So, no blanket. Do you think thatís mean? I am running out of things to do with him.

Before anyone says to term him, I cannot do that right now. My husband is unemployed and this is our only income.
Reply
Sugar Magnolia 11:22 AM 04-11-2013
Well I feel bad for you and this is a tough issue. You said terming is not an option, but honestly, if.other children are being injured, you may in fact have other families leave if their children (this boys victims) are coming home injured. If you keep the problem child who is hurting others, you might be left with only him. If redirection, time out and all other tactics have failed, you really need to let him go. I also don't think taking.away nap items is a good.idea. I don't think that is productive. Have you tried positive reinforcement? Like praising sharing, gentle hand, rewarding him with "you can earn a sticker today if you don't hit or hurt anyone"? Bottom line is....term, or be termed by the victims parents. I know that is tough, but the safety of the other children is priority. Sorry again for this issue you have, we have all been there, I sure have. Good luck.
Reply
Play Care 11:25 AM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
Tell me if this is mean. I have a 3 yr old dcb that has been very defiant lately and hitting and pushing the other kids non-stop. I have taken toys away from him, time out, lay on nap mat ect. Nothing works. Talked to parents about it, they seem angry at first, but then allow him to control so many things when he's with them. For instance, mom HAS to lay with him every night for him to go to sleep, he HAS to bring a stuffed animal everyday he comes here. Last week when dad picked up he wanted to put his sweatshirt on. Dad put it on him, the dcb took it off and said that HE wanted to put it on, so he was almost done putting it on and dad tried to help so dcb got mad and took it totally off again and said that he wanted to do it. He did this 3 times. Dad allowed it. So obviously they just let him do whatever. Today I have run out of ideas on how to give him an incentive to not hit. He body slammed another dcb earlier so I told him that was it, if I see it again, he is not getting his blanket that he brings from home for nap. Well, right before nap he walked up and smacked a second dcb in the face. So, no blanket. Do you think thatís mean? I am running out of things to do with him.

Before anyone says to term him, I cannot do that right now. My husband is unemployed and this is our only income.

My first thought is why is this child being allowed to play near/with peers at all? A child behaving that way in my home is with ME. If I can't be with them, then they must sit at the table with an activity of MY choosing. This is for the safety of ALL the children in my care. "kids who push/hit don't get to play with friends." lather rinse repeat.

As for what he does at home - eh, let that be their problem. At the end of the day, I would have him ready to go and hand him out the door. Once the door is shut I don't care what happens - not my problem.
Keep in mind that having the child HAVE to stick to me like glue *usually* ends the issue (I'm boring I guess) If it didn't I *would* have to term as shadowing is a means to an end, not a long term solution.
And obviously I am also making sure I am praising out the wazoo for good behavior and using any and all opportunities to get positively recognize the child. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda.
Reply
lovemykidstoo 11:27 AM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by Sugar Magnolia:
Well I feel bad for you and this is a tough issue. You said terming is not an option, but honestly, if.other children are being injured, you may in fact have other families leave if their children (this boys victims) are coming home injured. If you keep the problem child who is hurting others, you might be left with only him. If redirection, time out and all other tactics have failed, you really need to let him go. I also don't think taking.away nap items is a good.idea. I don't think that is productive. Have you tried positive reinforcement? Like praising sharing, gentle hand, rewarding him with "you can earn a sticker today if you don't hit or hurt anyone"? Bottom line is....term, or be termed by the victims parents. I know that is tough, but the safety of the other children is priority. Sorry again for this issue you have, we have all been there, I sure have. Good luck.
I absolutely have done positive reinforcement non-stop. He just seems to be so attention needing lately. I actually might think that I'm giving it too much attention, but I don't know what else to do. I have also made him shadow me, but it only takes 1 time and he smacks someone.
Reply
lovemykidstoo 11:29 AM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by Play Care:
My first thought is why is this child being allowed to play near/with peers at all? A child behaving that way in my home is with ME. If I can't be with them, then they must sit at the table with an activity of MY choosing. This is for the safety of ALL the children in my care. "kids who push/hit don't get to play with friends." lather rinse repeat.

As for what he does at home - eh, let that be their problem. At the end of the day, I would have him ready to go and hand him out the door. Once the door is shut I don't care what happens - not my problem.
Keep in mind that having the child HAVE to stick to me like glue *usually* ends the issue (I'm boring I guess) If it didn't I *would* have to term as shadowing is a means to an end, not a long term solution.
And obviously I am also making sure I am praising out the wazoo for good behavior and using any and all opportunities to get positively recognize the child. Yadda, Yadda, Yadda.
I just posted this in response to the other post, but I definately do praise him when he's being good. I do have him shadow, but he's going to have to do it more until he stops. It's just so frustrating. I'll take terrible 2's over God awful 3's anyday
Reply
countrymom 11:31 AM 04-11-2013
I would put his butt in time out and he can sit there. You be on this kid like glue (it does work) you make him go where ever you go. If you have to hold his hand. I he does something bad you make him go to the time out spot. He needs to learn that there are consequences. The problem is that he plays his parents so he thinks he can do the same with you. I would also have him ready and waiting for pick up. I don't play games at pick up, if he took his sweater off I would have gave it to dad, I don't have time for drama. And be consistant. As for the blanket, I would put it in the closet as soon as he came. I have blanket bringers here too and they all go in the closet.
Reply
NeedaVaca 11:33 AM 04-11-2013
I know you said you can't term but couldn't you advertise and as soon as you have a replacement term? That way you are not out any income I did that once, I really needed the income but one child had to go! I advertised, had a family interested and told them the spot was available in 2 weeks, gave 2 week notice to the DCF I was terming so I didn't lose anything.
Reply
lovemykidstoo 11:44 AM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
I would put his butt in time out and he can sit there. You be on this kid like glue (it does work) you make him go where ever you go. If you have to hold his hand. I he does something bad you make him go to the time out spot. He needs to learn that there are consequences. The problem is that he plays his parents so he thinks he can do the same with you. I would also have him ready and waiting for pick up. I don't play games at pick up, if he took his sweater off I would have gave it to dad, I don't have time for drama. And be consistant. As for the blanket, I would put it in the closet as soon as he came. I have blanket bringers here too and they all go in the closet.
So do you let the kids with blankets have them at naptime? I dont let them carry them throughout the day, only at nap. They usualy come in and put them in their beds first thing.

This is a new behavior with this child. He's never been the perfect child, none of them are, but he has been so defiant and such a control freak lately I can hardly stand it.
Reply
Sugar Magnolia 11:46 AM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
I absolutely have done positive reinforcement non-stop. He just seems to be so attention needing lately. I actually might think that I'm giving it too much attention, but I don't know what else to do. I have also made him shadow me, but it only takes 1 time and he smacks someone.
Well, you have done all the right things.....positive reinforcement, redirect, time out, have him shadow you. There aren't many options left. I termed a 3 year old girl recently for violence. It started out as little smacks, then hard smacks. Then it became much more serious. She grabbed a girl by the hair and pulled her off a riding toy. I sent her home and.warned the parents that violence won't be tolerated. Two days later, she BIT a child who did nothing to her except sit down next to her. She grabbed his arm and bit down on it like a turkey leg. Immediate termination. You should warn the parents. And please consider what may happen to the rest if your clients if you allow him to stay. I don't think there are "other options" for this behavior, outside of what you have already tried. I was in a financial pinch when I termed my violent girl.....but two Weeks later, I got a new client. Keep trying time out, I hope he turns around and you salvage the situation.
Reply
lovemykidstoo 11:51 AM 04-11-2013
Thank you. I think that I might need to have a meeting (without child) next week to talk with these parents. I hate to talk to either of them in front of him. He manipulates especially his mother so badly. She brings him in the morning and he cries when she leaves every time. The dad says that he doesn't feel bad for mom because she babies him. Then when dad picks up he puts on this poor me face and tells dad how I was "mean" to him. Monday when dad picked up, he told his dad that I took the Lego's away from him blah blah blah. Dad says, well I'm sure she had a good reason. I said, yea, he hit someone with them, so the toy was put away. 5 seconds later was when the sweatshirt on and off started. Now don't you think that if someone told you that your child hit someone with Lego's you might just put the darn sweatshirt on the kid and go or would you allow him to take it on and off 3 times? Ridiculous!
Reply
MCC 02:09 PM 04-11-2013
I don't really have a ton of advice, but I do want to say I know how hard this is. I posted a couple weeks ago about a 3 year old DCB I have and he is the same as your DCB. I spend more time dealing with his horrible behavior than I do with the infants. It makes for a really long day, and it breaks my heart seeing his negative behavior affect my own child

Honestly, I threatened to term him and the parents have stepped up. I told them they had 2 weeks to get his behavior under control, or he had to go. (this would be the second time he was kicked out of a daycare). He was the same way, manipulative with Dad, babied by mom. His behavior has improved, and his parents are taking it seriously. I was VERY forward with them. I told them that once he goes to Kindergarten, they are not going to be able to move him from school to school to find someone who will let him do whatever he wants. I felt bad saying it, but I think that is where the light bulb went off.

I hope your meeting with his parents goes well, and you are able to get across to them how important it is that they set some boundaries for him. Good Luck!
Reply
lovemykidstoo 02:57 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by MCC:
I don't really have a ton of advice, but I do want to say I know how hard this is. I posted a couple weeks ago about a 3 year old DCB I have and he is the same as your DCB. I spend more time dealing with his horrible behavior than I do with the infants. It makes for a really long day, and it breaks my heart seeing his negative behavior affect my own child

Honestly, I threatened to term him and the parents have stepped up. I told them they had 2 weeks to get his behavior under control, or he had to go. (this would be the second time he was kicked out of a daycare). He was the same way, manipulative with Dad, babied by mom. His behavior has improved, and his parents are taking it seriously. I was VERY forward with them. I told them that once he goes to Kindergarten, they are not going to be able to move him from school to school to find someone who will let him do whatever he wants. I felt bad saying it, but I think that is where the light bulb went off.

I hope your meeting with his parents goes well, and you are able to get across to them how important it is that they set some boundaries for him. Good Luck!
Thank you. Do you know what the parents have done to help the situation or what tactics you have implemented to help?
Reply
Play Care 03:41 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
I absolutely have done positive reinforcement non-stop. He just seems to be so attention needing lately. I actually might think that I'm giving it too much attention, but I don't know what else to do. I have also made him shadow me, but it only takes 1 time and he smacks someone.

When a child has to shadow me (yes, they come with me, I don't follow them) I am always between them and the other children. I don't leave them with the kids for a second, there is always a plan for the what if's (what if I have to use the bathroom, change a diaper, give first aid, Publisher's Clearing House shows up etc. etc.) The child goes up in a high chair (yes, even the 3's) that's located in a gated play yard with some toys. The other kids can't get to him, he can't get to them (this is for a few minutes not all day obviously) I just think when you have a known aggressive child, the "I just tuned away for a minute" doesn't cut it.

I know some might disagree, but another provider I know used to have a spot set up away from the main play area but still in her line of supervision. The aggressive child played there, with the toys she provided(and what was in there for the AM was in all day, they could not swap or share, etc.). They were not allowed near the other children at all (even for meals) while they were behaving aggressively. She made a point to be very clear why the child was restricted to that spot and what needed to happen for them to get the privilege of playing with friends again. The parents were well aware of what was going on (she had them sign off on it) and they knew they this was a last resort intervention - if it didn't help, they were looking for other care. Again, this is clearly not a long term solution but it may help in the short term.

Otherwise, at this point I would try like heck to fill his spot and then give him notice hoping you don't lose other kids because of him in the meantime.
Reply
countrymom 06:16 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
So do you let the kids with blankets have them at naptime? I dont let them carry them throughout the day, only at nap. They usualy come in and put them in their beds first thing.

This is a new behavior with this child. He's never been the perfect child, none of them are, but he has been so defiant and such a control freak lately I can hardly stand it.
blankets are for naps only. I have seen kids (like my own) go crazy with blankets, they drag them and then they get dirty, put them on their heads and run into a wall, dcg would freak on my cat because he touched it. And really they don't need it. Nap only.
Reply
lovemykidstoo 06:34 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by countrymom:
blankets are for naps only. I have seen kids (like my own) go crazy with blankets, they drag them and then they get dirty, put them on their heads and run into a wall, dcg would freak on my cat because he touched it. And really they don't need it. Nap only.
That's my opinion too. I hate the blankets anyway. God only knows how often their washed. They're just cootie magnets.
Reply
MCC 07:41 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
Thank you. Do you know what the parents have done to help the situation or what tactics you have implemented to help?

The biggest thing that they have changed is enforcing basic things that they were not. Example: when he started here he was completely potty trained, but refused to wash his hands, I told him he must, and EVERY TIME he would have a melt down and start pushing toys around, screaming etc... I explained to his mother that if a state auditor was here and saw him not wash his hands, I could get dinged for that. Also- he just needs to wash his hands, point blank.
They have started enforcing stricter limits on bedtime, and playtime.

They also have changed his eating habbits (or the say they have) I asked them how often he drink straight juice (he shows up with a bottle of juice every morning) they said that they aren't diluting juice anymore. I explained to them that he gets here and goes crazy, and then crashes into a whiny mess and they have stopped the juice in the morning. He drinks straight water here all day and never asks for anything else, I don't understand why you would give a 3 yo straight juice on a daily basis.
Reply
lovemykidstoo 07:48 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by MCC:
The biggest thing that they have changed is enforcing basic things that they were not. Example: when he started here he was completely potty trained, but refused to wash his hands, I told him he must, and EVERY TIME he would have a melt down and start pushing toys around, screaming etc... I explained to his mother that if a state auditor was here and saw him not wash his hands, I could get dinged for that. Also- he just needs to wash his hands, point blank.
They have started enforcing stricter limits on bedtime, and playtime.

They also have changed his eating habbits (or the say they have) I asked them how often he drink straight juice (he shows up with a bottle of juice every morning) they said that they aren't diluting juice anymore. I explained to them that he gets here and goes crazy, and then crashes into a whiny mess and they have stopped the juice in the morning. He drinks straight water here all day and never asks for anything else, I don't understand why you would give a 3 yo straight juice on a daily basis.
Thanks for the info. This family I'm talking about definately needs to reinforce rules with him. The dad even gets mad at the mom because she coddles him so bad, but he's not much better. Like I said initially after hearing that he hit another child, why in the hell would you sit there and allow him to take his sweatshirt on and off 3 times just because he didn't want your help. When my son was in daycare, if I would have received a bad report, I would have put his coat on and took his butt home. I woudl never have let him play control games with the sweatshirt.
Reply
blandino 08:12 PM 04-11-2013
Originally Posted by Play Care:
I know some might disagree, but another provider I know used to have a spot set up away from the main play area but still in her line of supervision. The aggressive child played there, with the toys she provided(and what was in there for the AM was in all day, they could not swap or share, etc.). They were not allowed near the other children at all (even for meals) while they were behaving aggressively.
I don't think that's mean. I have done it before when nothing else worked. I had DCG (3 yo) pick out a few toys, laid a blanket on the floor and told her that was her play spot, since she couldn't play with her friends without physically yanking toys out of their hands "because she wanted them". It worked very very well.
Reply
Play Care 04:00 AM 04-12-2013
Originally Posted by blandino:
I don't think that's mean. I have done it before when nothing else worked. I had DCG (3 yo) pick out a few toys, laid a blanket on the floor and told her that was her play spot, since she couldn't play with her friends without physically yanking toys out of their hands "because she wanted them". It worked very very well.
I don't either. But I know some providers who would cry about "isolating" the child and not "teaching" them anything. I disagree, especially with a 3 yo who is manipulating the situation.

I usually find that once kids know they can't get away with the nonsense at my house, they are very good for me, even when they are horrible for their parents.

Blankets and other "loveys" are for nap time only here. When kids carry the item it gets dirty, lost, etc. There's nothing like getting a call at 9:00PM because Susie can't find her blankie and won't go to sleep and do I have it
Reply
Kaddidle Care 05:46 AM 04-12-2013
Originally Posted by lovemykidstoo:
He body slammed another dcb earlier so I told him that was it, if I see it again, he is not getting his blanket that he brings from home for nap. Well, right before nap he walked up and smacked a second dcb in the face. So, no blanket. Do you think thatís mean? I am running out of things to do with him.

Before anyone says to term him, I cannot do that right now. My husband is unemployed and this is our only income.
Not mean at all - he was warned ahead of time - he has to learn there are reactions to his actions. (coffee hasn't kicked in - not the exact words I want to use but you get my gist)

It doesn't sound like it's going to get better because the parents are spoiling him.

Start advertising for a replacement now and let him go when you find one.
Reply
Tags:3 year old, defiant
Reply Up