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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>What Do I Do With This Child?? (Long)
Jack Sprat 01:08 PM 04-17-2014
DCB is 3 yrs. He turned 3 last November. He started here back in Feb. His behavior was pretty bad. I wrote a lot of it off as effects of moving to a new town, new daycare and dcm's boyfriend moving out. At our interview he was pretty good. DCM did mention that he had been in three different daycares since last August. I heard the comment but, I didn't think much of it till he started.

This is what I need help with. He comes at 6:30am. He comes running in, yelling, ringing the doorbell, and starts running in circles. I have finally gotten the ringing doorbell and running in circles stopped. He does really well one on one with me. Then as the other dck's arrive it gets bad. He repeats EVERY word that is said by other kids. He will repeatedly say hi to the kids. They will say hi back and he keeps going. While we are eating breakfast he will take a bite of his food and then spit it back out. Sometimes he will eat the chewed food and swallow it. Sometimes he packs his mouth full and throws up. I have talked to him about this everyday! I eat with the kids so he sees how I eat. He watches how the kids eat but, he still does this. I have removed him from the table to eat alone and he does better. But, will then say he can't hear us and ask to talk louder. At playtime he takes toys, spits, kicks, hits you name it he probably does it. I take him to T.O. he comes back and repeats it. Now, he has become my special friend. He isn't allowed to play in the living room while I make lunch because he can't handle it. I can see all the kids from the kitchen and he knows I see him and he can hear me but, he still acts out. I have tried redirecting and positive discipline. This helped for a bit. But, now he just keeps going or tells me to shut up. Thus, he becomes my special friend and spends most of his time in time out. Pick up is awful and we do it quick and sweet.

I think he definitely has some social and speech delays. It's very hard to understand him. He talks but, it's very random. He spins like no other child I have ever seen. He spends a lot of time spinning when its just him. Outside he runs from thing to thing. When we go on walks (almost everyday) he has to hold on to our "rope" as he seems to have no fear of moving vehicles.

I don't know if I should suggest dcm have him tested for Autism? Some of his behaviors make me think he could be on the spectrum. I do want to suggest Head Start or pre-school. I lean to H.S. because they bus and I won't be able to transport. His aunt a former co-worker is also a teacher. I was hoping she would see some of this and say something to mom. So far all she tells me is that this what he always does and he is like this at home and had these issues at other daycares. He is mean to dcm. She said he bit her on the stomach earlier this week and it still hurt. She isn't much for structure or discipline. He runs wild once I hand him over to her.

This child makes me nuts. But, when we have our "talks" I see this little boy who has so much to say but, has no idea how to do it. No idea how to interact and play with other kids.

Please help! I am at a loss. If he was my only dck or even if I had only two or three I think I could really help him. But, not with 7 other kiddo's like I have now. Sorry this was so long or if there were typos! Trying to hammer it out before nap is over.
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preschoolteacher 01:18 PM 04-17-2014
I would TOTALLY recommend Head Start. You can tell the mom your concerns about his behavior and that Head Start can help him in some ways. Plus, Head Start would probably be able to recognize autism signs since they see so many kids.

It sounds like he is seeking attention from the other kids. His food issues and talking issues make it sound like he wants to engage with them, but he doesn't know how. Can you get some books about how to play with others? Role model and act out appropriate social interactions?

He sounds super frustrating. Way to go for hanging in there. Sounds like you a very positive force in his life!
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TwinKristi 01:23 PM 04-17-2014
Does your county/state offer early intervention services for childcare providers? Once they're 3 they typically qualify for intervention through the school district, but he may need some testing done before that and the early intervention program in my area is awesome! I have a DCB with delays and he has 3 types of therapy offered to him for free. They're going to be testing soon for his 2.5yr development and seeing if he qualifies for special ed preschool. Mom doesn't really seem to "get it" that he's VERY behind. She has a lot of people chirping in her ear that everything is fine, he will grow out of it, he's just a little behind... but really, he's profoundly delayed and I suspect an ASD diagnoses. Perhaps not severe Autism, but something in the spectrum. Last week there was an Autism Awareness Day thing going around FB and he fits every single symptom on the chart. I don't have the heart to tell mom though because she just doesn't seem to get it. He also has symptoms of Celiacs and I've been doing Gluten-free here but I found out this week his Nana hasn't been following this diet and it's pointless for ME to do it (the added time & expense is a LOT) and he not follow it at home!
I would look into what services are offered for providers and go from there. Maybe do an ages & stages worksheet for her and see where he falls. That was the start for us.
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Jack Sprat 01:28 PM 04-17-2014
Great idea! I don't know what is offered but, I will check into it. His mom is like yours and just doesn't get it. She seems to be a cloud somewhere. When I was teaching I had a little guy similar to dcb. He touched my heart in a big way and I see so much of that student in this boy. He loves my DH and listens to him and talks non-stop to him when he is here.

I am going to also suggest H.S. to mom. Hopefully between that and if we are able to get him services he will improve.
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debbiedoeszip 01:29 PM 04-17-2014
He definitely sounds like he needs assessment (for something). Other than keeping him at your side at all times, I don't know what else you can do.

TBH, he sounds like a revved up version of my DS at that same age (dx at age 6 with severe ADHD). The repeating, the spinning, the running from thing to thing, the not responding to T.O. Mine had anxiety, though, so rather than having no fears he had uber fears which created it's own issues. My DS also had an aversion to rough housing and was timid so he didn't lash out or try to take toys.
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hwichlaz 01:30 PM 04-17-2014
He sounds sensory seeking, which could be autism or not.
Do you have a local Easter Seals? or another agency that will give you an ages and stages form to fill in for him? I'd do an ages and stages form. If there are concerns, give mom x amount of time to address it with his doctor, and hand her a head start application. He needs services NOW.

In the mean time, give him some ways to get the extra sensory input that he needs. A big bumpy yoga ball for him to balance on, clay, play VERY physical games inside or outside, which ever works best. Follow the leader, red light green light, going on a lion hunt. Stomp, jump, roll etc.
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Heidi 01:41 PM 04-17-2014
I would also like to direct you to this website, which I link quite often. There is a TON of information there, as well as activities.

It's called CSEFEL...Center on Social and Emotional Foundations for Learning. I forget the rest...lol. He sounds like he is def. in the 15% at the top of their pyramid; kids who need "more" for whatever reason.

They have lots of activities, and you can do them with the whole group. Nothing singles out a particular child and says "he needs extra", but it may still help him. If you need any training hours and you can find this in your area, it's worth your time. Not the same old, same old stuff.

http://csefel.vanderbilt.edu/
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Jack Sprat 01:41 PM 04-17-2014
We are very active he does not do well with physical games. He takes it to the extreme and ends of becoming violent. He loves puzzles and will sit and work on puzzles for almost an hour!

So far our Child Care Aware rep says there are services for under 3 but, no response as far as his age group.
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hwichlaz 02:06 PM 04-17-2014
Once they hit 3 years old you have to go through the school district. BUT Headstart can find and implement that for the mom. She should get him on the wait list ASAP.
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Jack Sprat 02:23 PM 04-17-2014
Well, H.S. may not be bussing in our area next year. I guess its a year to year thing. I have looked at the ages and stages and he is not yets on all the fine motor and communication questions. CCA rep says that is normal for boys. I agree but...She did offer to give some supplemental things to dcm. So I am going to contain him today and ask mom
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Blackcat31 02:47 PM 04-17-2014
Originally Posted by Jack Sprat:
Well, H.S. may not be bussing in our area next year. I guess its a year to year thing. I have looked at the ages and stages and he is not yets on all the fine motor and communication questions. CCA rep says that is normal for boys. I agree but...She did offer to give some supplemental things to dcm. So I am going to contain him today and ask mom
Almost sounds like he has excess energy... How much screen time does he get in a day?

How much outside time?

What is his diet like?



ALL things that DIRECTLY affect a child's behavior.

**************************************************

As for his other "issues"~

"He comes running in, yelling, ringing the doorbell, and starts running in circles."

Then he sits in time out. Start a reward chart. Each morning he comes in like a calm and ready to listen child give him a star. If he earns x amount of stars he earns a privilege. Make him WANT to be quiet, calm and well behaved.

he will take a bite of his food and then spit it back out.

Remove him from that table immediately. Do not allow him to return. Obviously he does not want to eat. He is showing you that. Don't engage in discussion with him, just have him leave the table.

At lunch time, have him eat alone. When he wants others to speak up so he can hear them, tell him no. He has NOT earned the privilege to be part of the group conversation. Once he learns there are certain manners required to be at the table with others, he should know what is expected of him.

At playtime he takes toys, spits, kicks, hits you name it he probably does it. I take him to T.O. he comes back and repeats it.

Do not allow him to come back more than ONE time. If he repeats ANY negative or unwanted behavior he should immediately be your shadow with NO privileges.

But, now he just keeps going or tells me to shut up.

He needs to go to nap IMMEDIATELY. NO discussion, NO reminding. NO discipline....just go to nap.

He is enjoying the attention his behavior is netting him. Take the spot light form him.

Have mom agree to be strict and swift with consequences (no reminders, second chances etc) and if he becomes defiant, disrespectful or out of control....call mom. It is NOT your job to do anything more than what you are already doing.

Head Start isn't a cure all....they just have resources available more readily than others but the same resources H/S has are available to everyone. Mom should look into having him assessed, although a big part of me feels like from what you've said it is a child behaving in a manner he is allowed to and one in which his is indirectly being positively reinforced to do so.
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NightOwl 05:56 PM 04-17-2014
I was thinking he may be in the spectrum even before I got to the part where you mentioned it! I think you hit the nail on the head. I would insist the dcm have him evaluated. There are definite issues. The school district has services for children over 3.
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taylorw1210 05:44 AM 04-18-2014
He sounds exactly like my 2.5yo dcb with Sensory Processing Disorder, prior to him starting early intervention therapy. He started with me last July and the first few months were exactly the way you describe. When I confronted dcm in October about thinking he may be on the spectrum, she agreed and had him start testing and by December he was dx'd with SPD - not autism. They took a 2 mo. break due to a parent being laid off and during that time he started all of his therapies and came back an entirely new kid! His speech is incredible now, he's able to center himself much better to prevent complete meltdowns, only on really bad days does he run in circles, he plays with the other kids now instead of fighting with them, etc.

I would definitely address the issue with mom and point her in the direction of assessment. The earlier he starts the therapies he needs, the better off he'll be!
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Jack Sprat 12:20 PM 04-18-2014
I spoke with mom yesterday. She listened and agreed with everything I said. I also mentioned that if we are on the same page with discipline this will help at d.o. and p.u. I told her again that once she arrives she is in charge of him and has to pick him up and leave immediately. He is running in the street and I am afraid one day he will be hit by a car. She said she knows.

This morning at drop off she looked ready to cry. She said he didn't want to get up, kicked her in the mouth when she bent down to kiss him, undressed himself after she dressed him, threw her coffee cup at her, grabbed his gummy snacks off the counter and ran out the door, to her car that was started and locked the doors. The only reason he opened the door she said was because she had the gummy snacks he dropped. WTF?? Please excuse the language. But, after hearing this I feel no matter what I do will help him at home. Right now I am want to maintain him here. I looked at dcm and told her she has to get it figured out or he will harm himself, her or someone else.
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Jack Sprat 12:28 PM 04-18-2014
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Almost sounds like he has excess energy... How much screen time does he get in a day? He doesn't get any screen time of any kind here. I'm not sure what he gets at home.

How much outside time? Here he gets anywhere from 1-4 hours depending on weather, and what time he leaves. He usually leaves around 3:30. We walk 1 -1.5 miles each day. Of course, weather permitting. Then we play in the "playground" after our walk.


What is his diet like? I assume not great at home. Since he arrives everyday with gummy snacks and I take them and give him a piece of fruit and milk to hold him over.

ALL things that DIRECTLY affect a child's behavior.

**************************************************

As for his other "issues"~

"He comes running in, yelling, ringing the doorbell, and starts running in circles."

Then he sits in time out. Start a reward chart. Each morning he comes in like a calm and ready to listen child give him a star. If he earns x amount of stars he earns a privilege. Make him WANT to be quiet, calm and well behaved.

he will take a bite of his food and then spit it back out.

Remove him from that table immediately. Do not allow him to return. Obviously he does not want to eat. He is showing you that. Don't engage in discussion with him, just have him leave the table.

At lunch time, have him eat alone. When he wants others to speak up so he can hear them, tell him no. He has NOT earned the privilege to be part of the group conversation. Once he learns there are certain manners required to be at the table with others, he should know what is expected of him.

At playtime he takes toys, spits, kicks, hits you name it he probably does it. I take him to T.O. he comes back and repeats it.

Do not allow him to come back more than ONE time. If he repeats ANY negative or unwanted behavior he should immediately be your shadow with NO privileges.

But, now he just keeps going or tells me to shut up.

He needs to go to nap IMMEDIATELY. NO discussion, NO reminding. NO discipline....just go to nap.

He is enjoying the attention his behavior is netting him. Take the spot light form him.

Have mom agree to be strict and swift with consequences (no reminders, second chances etc) and if he becomes defiant, disrespectful or out of control....call mom. It is NOT your job to do anything more than what you are already doing.

Head Start isn't a cure all....they just have resources available more readily than others but the same resources H/S has are available to everyone. Mom should look into having him assessed, although a big part of me feels like from what you've said it is a child behaving in a manner he is allowed to and one in which his is indirectly being positively reinforced to do so.

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Blackcat31 12:34 PM 04-18-2014
Originally Posted by Jack Sprat:
I spoke with mom yesterday. She listened and agreed with everything I said. I also mentioned that if we are on the same page with discipline this will help at d.o. and p.u. I told her again that once she arrives she is in charge of him and has to pick him up and leave immediately. He is running in the street and I am afraid one day he will be hit by a car. She said she knows.

This morning at drop off she looked ready to cry. She said he didn't want to get up, kicked her in the mouth when she bent down to kiss him, undressed himself after she dressed him, threw her coffee cup at her, grabbed his gummy snacks off the counter and ran out the door, to her car that was started and locked the doors. The only reason he opened the door she said was because she had the gummy snacks he dropped. WTF?? Please excuse the language. But, after hearing this I feel no matter what I do will help him at home. Right now I am want to maintain him here. I looked at dcm and told her she has to get it figured out or he will harm himself, her or someone else.
Wow! She really needs help! Not necessarily from you as I would not want to be her go-to person because frankly she sounds like the problem.

I would let her have the problem and if you have one at daycare, send him home. If you just keep him because you know she can't leave work or whatever, then you are not helping her.

She NEEDS to feel the consequences of her lack of parenting. And if that means leaving work or losing her daycare for the day, week or permanently so be it. SHE did it not you.

I'd put her on a 30 day probationary period and see if things change. Set some basic ground rules (no hitting, no running off etc) not too many or it gets confusing and then allow redirection up to 3x a day and if he reaches the 4th T.O. or redirection due to violation of the ground rules you laid out, he goes home.

Mom will HAVE to start stepping up if she is having to leave work to "fix" her kids' issues.

Remember you are at work too and your work shouldn't have to suffer because of a parent's bad choice of parenting styles...or lack of.

If this child truly has developmental delays or issues SHE needs to figure them out by seeing the pediatrician or therapist or whatever......the "help" just shouldn't be you continuing to care for him despite the issues. NOT fair for you or the others.
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Jack Sprat 12:40 PM 04-18-2014
BC do I need to request a sit down meeting with her?

Or draft a letter?

Should I address pick up times and add this into it as well?

Yesterday, he also took a bike helmet off the porch, ran through the grass (he knows we don't walk on the front lawn) went to the bikes grabbed one and started to drag it down the driveway. DCM stood there and said "No, don't honey. We are leaving." As he drug it down the drive. I finally told him to put it back and get into the car now!
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nannyde 01:09 PM 04-18-2014
He's really dangerous. She needs to stop bringing him out in public and keep him home with her or turn his custody over to someone who can keep himself and those around him safe. He's going to ruin someones life. Whoever accidentally runs him over is going to go to their grave in despair.

She is bigger than him and stronger than him. She needs to overpower him physically and take complete control over his body. If she isn't willing to do that then she is not the right person to be in charge of him.
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Jack Sprat 01:21 PM 04-18-2014
Originally Posted by nannyde:
He's really dangerous. She needs to stop bringing him out in public and keep him home with her or turn his custody over to someone who can keep himself and those around him safe. He's going to ruin someones life. Whoever accidentally runs him over is going to go to their grave in despair.

She is bigger than him and stronger than him. She needs to overpower him physically and take complete control over his body. If she isn't willing to do that then she is not the right person to be in charge of him.
This is exactly what I see happening. It seems the better day he has here the worse that pick up is. Its like he has controlled himself all day and can't do it anymore. Plus, he knows he doesn't have to control himself.

I have a newborn starting in July. My biggest fear is he will harm her. He was here for a week when I had an infant before. He did very well with understanding that babies are "leave its". But, that was his first week here. I don't see this going as well if he is still here in July. I did express this to mom. Again I got the blank look and the I know comment.
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Blackcat31 01:25 PM 04-18-2014
Originally Posted by Jack Sprat:
BC do I need to request a sit down meeting with her?

Or draft a letter?

Should I address pick up times and add this into it as well?

Yesterday, he also took a bike helmet off the porch, ran through the grass (he knows we don't walk on the front lawn) went to the bikes grabbed one and started to drag it down the driveway. DCM stood there and said "No, don't honey. We are leaving." As he drug it down the drive. I finally told him to put it back and get into the car now!
What are your 5 biggest sticking points with him (AT your house)

ie: him running off into the street etc...

First figure out what things need immediate attention/change. (safety issues should be priority)

Decide "what" it is you want her to do differently. Like holding his hand at ALL times during drop offs/pick ups etc...

Then once you have those things figured out, I would request a meeting.
Lay out your 5 concerns and what you expect her to do about them
Let her know what you are going to do IF she does not do the above (whether that is calling for pick up, terming or hiring an assistant to walk him to and from her car..at HER expense of course,..... )

Give her two weeks to comply with these things. If NO progress has been made, you will know is this is or isn't going to work.

If there are tiny shreds of proof of improvement, extend the time to 30 days.

After those 2 weeks AND the 30 days, have another meeting and go from there.

This mom needs to get the safety issues under control NOW. If that child gets hurt on your property (even if mom is present) YOU could be liable and I would not want to see that happen.
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Jack Sprat 01:30 PM 04-18-2014
I was wondering about the liable part...I thought I could be/would be.

Thank you everyone for your help!
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EntropyControlSpecialist 01:47 PM 04-18-2014
Yes, I would not allow her lack of parentingg to jeapardize my family's income. NOT okay.

I have a rule now. If I have to tell junior to hold mom's hand then junior does NOT get computer time (5 min) thr next day. This is for ALL kids. If junior holds mom's hand before leaving and I say nothing then they have EARNED the right to use the computer for following safety rules. Maybe...?
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cheerfuldom 01:49 PM 04-18-2014
yeah this is not going to end well.....

definitely supportive of the probation and I think it is important that you prepare now for termination. He is way too unpredictable to be in group care with infants. I have a daughter with sensory seeking behaviors and she is a handful and that is with me keeping her on a strict routine, good eating habits, strict bedtime, plus the support of a part time specialized preschool with teachers prepared for special needs kids. This is not going to work with a mom who is unwilling to step up and environment not suited to his needs (group care with small babies and a provider I am assuming not prepared for special needs kids)
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Jack Sprat 01:12 PM 05-23-2014
Sooo, I spoke to dcm about having a meeting. She asked me to email her my concerns. I did. She never replied, basically didn't say a word. I asked her to find an evening we could sit down to talk. Well, she hasn't yet. I told her again on Wednesday that we really needed to sit down and discuss dcb behavior as it was getting worse and I was very concerned about him being around the newborn and the other children. Her response "I tell him not to bite" I explained it was the biting, the spitting food out at table, the running away from, etc, etc. I stated again to please find a time we could sit down and visit.


However, today he was growling at the other kids. They were asking him to stop. I told him to please stop he was upsetting the other kids. He looks at me and goes "you stop bitc!" He then went on to say it again an hour later to my 12 yr old DD after she asked him to not growl at her.

DCM is at her grandmothers funeral service today. If she wasn't I would have called for an immediate pick up. Needless to say he done here.
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cheerfuldom 01:23 PM 05-23-2014
Originally Posted by Jack Sprat:
Sooo, I spoke to dcm about having a meeting. She asked me to email her my concerns. I did. She never replied, basically didn't say a word. I asked her to find an evening we could sit down to talk. Well, she hasn't yet. I told her again on Wednesday that we really needed to sit down and discuss dcb behavior as it was getting worse and I was very concerned about him being around the newborn and the other children. Her response "I tell him not to bite" I explained it was the biting, the spitting food out at table, the running away from, etc, etc. I stated again to please find a time we could sit down and visit.


However, today he was growling at the other kids. They were asking him to stop. I told him to please stop he was upsetting the other kids. He looks at me and goes "you stop bitc!" He then went on to say it again an hour later to my 12 yr old DD after she asked him to not growl at her.

DCM is at her grandmothers funeral service today. If she wasn't I would have called for an immediate pick up. Needless to say he done here.
yup. I would do immediate termination upon pickup today. You have already let her know numerous times of the issues as well as offered to meet to work things out and she has declined by not responding in a timely fashion. Now the situation has escalated and you can no longer handle this child. Just term and be done with it. Be prepared for her to use that offer of a meeting against you and be ready with a response when she does so. "I offered on numerous occasions to met up with you to create a plan to address his behavior and you never responded to those offers. Now his behavior has escalated past what I and this environment can tolerate and we are beyond the point of a parent meeting. This is his immediate termination as well as all his belongings. The decision is final and you will have to find another daycare arrangement immediately" Call your licensing agency now and be proactive in case she calls to report you on something.
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Second Home 01:36 PM 05-23-2014
Sorry you are dealing with this dcb , it makes for a very stressful day .
If any dck said that to me it would be his / her last day .
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Jack Sprat 01:40 PM 05-23-2014
Thank you!

It blows me away that a 3yr old would say that. However, dd has told me he talks this way to his cousins as well. They attend school together.
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Heidi 01:44 PM 05-23-2014
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
yup. I would do immediate termination upon pickup today. You have already let her know numerous times of the issues as well as offered to meet to work things out and she has declined by not responding in a timely fashion. Now the situation has escalated and you can no longer handle this child. Just term and be done with it. Be prepared for her to use that offer of a meeting against you and be ready with a response when she does so. "I offered on numerous occasions to met up with you to create a plan to address his behavior and you never responded to those offers. Now his behavior has escalated past what I and this environment can tolerate and we are beyond the point of a parent meeting. This is his immediate termination as well as all his belongings. The decision is final and you will have to find another daycare arrangement immediately" Call your licensing agency now and be proactive in case she calls to report you on something.
Reminds me of the husband (I once had) who when asked to go to counseling said "No way". A year later, when I told him I was leaving, THEN he thought counseling might be a good idea. Sorry, Charlie, that ship has sailed!
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NightOwl 02:09 PM 05-23-2014
What happened between 4/18 and today? She still has not come for a meeting and it's been a solid month??
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Jack Sprat 12:25 PM 05-29-2014
No she didn't. I didn't push it either and should have.

Last Friday she sent a text saying she would be 30 minutes late for pick up. I explained that he had to be picked up by 5:05. He was, I sent home a note asking her to please call me. She did and I termed. She said she understood etc. Only thing that bugs me is I see her brother and sister in law weekly at ball and they are so rude to me. I go about my business and do my job as coach and remain pleasent. Just bugs me that they are like that. Oh well, small town drama. Daycare is a much happier and safer place now!!
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