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Parents and Guardians Forum>Illegal Daycare, Two Week Notice, and Other Chaos
Unregistered 06:53 AM 03-24-2015
My three children started attending a home daycare part time (Tuesdays and Thursdays) three weeks ago (their ages are 5,4, and 1). The first week every thing flowed smoothly, but beginning the second week I noticed that the provider was caring for more and more children. The first day I noticed the problem she was caring for 9 children including my three! She told me that she accepted too many drop ins and that her niece had been helping her that day, but it would not happen again. (I asked her who else would be around my children and a niece was never mentioned, but that's not the worst of it). That Thursday I kept my children with me and they returned the following Tuesday (beginning week 3 of care). When I dropped them off there were only 2 other children present so I thought things would be fine, but when I picked them up she had 5 other children including a 5 week old baby! I was upset to see so many children, but even more my 5 year old and 4 year old told me that she didn't even feed them that day (they were there with her from 9:30 am-4pm), and my 4 year old was crying about having to use the restroom because he was too afraid to go to the restroom because he said there were men upstairs (where the restroom was). Not only was the care extremely unsatisfactory, her operation is illegal. Despite my fury, I intended to pay her for two weeks (while keeping my children with me of course) and file a complaint with the state, but this morning she sends me a message saying that I would be charged for three weeks because I put in my notice on a Tuesday even though the week had always started on a Tuesday for my children. I'm so upset about all of this I can't even think clearly. Any insight anyone could give me would be greatly appreciated.
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cara041083 07:13 AM 03-24-2015
Well I would call and file a complaint with the state (they will go and shut her down and tell her to get a licence at which point she will then be regulated) and as for the payment, If you feel the need to pay your two weeks, then pay it. As for the extra week. NOPE! She doesn't have a leg to stand on because she is operating illegally.
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permanentvacation 07:13 AM 03-24-2015
If you are sure she's illegal, then skip this first part, but if you need to know for sure, I would call the Department of Social Services and ask if it is legal in your state to babysit from your home. If it is, ask how many children they are allowed to watch at a time.

If you find out that she is operating an illegal daycare, I would call her and let her know that she will not be receiving payment from you as you have learned that what she is doing is illegal therefore, you had to immediately remove your children to place them in a legal childcare. I would then tell her that I do not want any further communication with her. If you would like, you could also inform her that you have already filed a complaint with the state for her operating an illegal childcare and since she is doing so, you certainly will not pay her. If you think she might continue harassing you for payment, instead of calling her, you might want to call a lawyer and get advice from them. I would think that writing all the above information in a letter to her and to your lawyer would help you in court if she tries to sue you for the money. And, a letter stating that you know she's illegal and therefore do not wish to hire her or pay her for illegal services might help to keep her from trying to sue you.

And, in the future, even if babysitting is legal in your state, I would definitely only hire licensed home providers, a licensed daycare center or hire a nanny to come to your house to care for your children.
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permanentvacation 07:24 AM 03-24-2015
If she's actually illegal, I wouldn't have paid for the 2 weeks notice. As soon as I learned that she was providing illegal services, I would have ripped my kids out and not paid her one more penny. When I picked up my children, I would have been livid ( pis**d off) and pretty much reprimanded her for offering illegal services. I would have said something like, " I can't BELIEVE you are offering illegal childcare. I had no idea you weren't legally allowed to babysit my children! Since you are offering business services to the general public, I expected that you would know the rules and regulations of the services you are offering and would have made sure to offer LEGAL services! My children WILL NOT be back! And I will contact the authorities regarding your ILLEGAL operation here!

If you do decide to call her and she gets mouthy with you about her 3rd payment, maybe you can say something like that to here then.
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Unregistered 07:29 AM 03-24-2015
I put in the complaint this morning, I really don't understand how she thinks she can extort an additional week from me on top of the two weeks when she didn't even feed my children, not to mention the fact that her operation is illegal. I'm wondering if I should hire a lawyer.
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permanentvacation 07:36 AM 03-24-2015
Regarding not feeding the children, if you hire a lawyer, I would tell him/her that your children said they weren't fed. But you can't prove or disprove that. But, if her business is illegal, you can prove that. I wouldn't hire a lawyer at the moment. I would only do so if you get a letter from her lawyer or a bill in the mail from her for the 3rd week's fee. Right now, it's just her trying to annoy you enough that you will pay her to make her shut up and leave you alone. You might be best off just not contacting her at all. Maybe after a few days she'll give up and leave you alone.
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Unregistered 07:39 AM 03-24-2015
I did not see your response before I replied. I have not paid for the two weeks yet. I paid her through last week when I dropped my children off last Tuesday morning, but I did not put in the notice until I picked them up that day and saw all of the children there again. I was only going to pay because I felt obligated due to her notice clause in the contract but if I am not obligated I certainly do not want to pay her a penny more. I did look at the regulations for my state (Virginia) and it stipulates that she is not allowed more than 5 children.
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Heidi 08:03 AM 03-24-2015
IF she is operating illegally, call it in and do not pay her any more money.

Did you sign a written contract?
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Unregistered 08:07 AM 03-24-2015
yes I did sign a contract when my children started which stated that I would provide two weeks paid notice, nothing about being charged for additional time depending on when the noticed was received.
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permanentvacation 08:11 AM 03-24-2015
I wouldn't pay her and I wouldn't communicate with her any further. If she wants to get the money from you, she'll have to take you to court for it. Then you can get a lawyer involved. Honestly, I operate a legally licensed daycare and I've had a couple of people leave without any notice and not pay me my contracted 2 weeks notice. However, it's such a pain to go to court about it, I didn't even bother. I am a legal provider with a legally binding contract and I didn't bother to take them to court for the money. I know plenty of legal providers like myself who haven't bothered to take parents to court for the money just because overall, it's just not worth the hassle we have to go through. I really doubt that she will take you to court.
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Unregistered 08:22 AM 03-24-2015
thank you, this lesson has been costly enough. Even though things started off fine, with her not being licensed I just did not have any assurance that she would maintain a proper child to provider ratio and she clearly did not. I'm not going to pay her and I doubt she will take me to court, hopefully when the DSS completes their investigation she will be shut down.
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Thriftylady 08:25 AM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
thank you, this lesson has been costly enough. Even though things started off fine, with her not being licensed I just did not have any assurance that she would maintain a proper child to provider ratio and she clearly did not. I'm not going to pay her and I doubt she will take me to court, hopefully when the DSS completes their investigation she will be shut down.
If you didn't have a contract and handbook with her, make sure you do with your next provider. I tell my parents these protect both parties. I expect to be pre-paid, but what happens if you pre pay me and on Monday morning I just decide I am to tired to answer the door? The contract then works in your favor. The handbook gives you a clear idea of how I run things and answers a ton of questions for you. And it keeps me consistent among all children and families.
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NightOwl 10:46 AM 03-24-2015
She was in breech of contact as of the first day you took your kids and there were 9 children present. Don't pay her another dime.
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Angelsj 11:53 AM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Wednesday:
She was in breech of contact as of the first day you took your kids and there were 9 children present. Don't pay her another dime.
This is not a given. I am allowed 10 children, so 9 is within my legal limits.
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Blackcat31 12:13 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
I did not see your response before I replied. I have not paid for the two weeks yet. I paid her through last week when I dropped my children off last Tuesday morning, but I did not put in the notice until I picked them up that day and saw all of the children there again. I was only going to pay because I felt obligated due to her notice clause in the contract but if I am not obligated I certainly do not want to pay her a penny more. I did look at the regulations for my state (Virginia) and it stipulates that she is not allowed more than 5 children.
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
This is not a given. I am allowed 10 children, so 9 is within my legal limits.
OP stated Virginia only allows for 5 children so 9 would be out illegal.
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Angelsj 12:14 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
OP stated Virginia only allows for 5 children so 9 would be out illegal.
Wow, really? How does one make a living on that?
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Blackcat31 12:16 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
Wow, really? How does one make a living on that?
Rates that are double what we charge ?

If I could get half my families to pay me double what they are paying now, I would definitely offer more specialized and individualized care.
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Angelsj 12:26 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Rates that are double what we charge ?

If I could get half my families to pay me double what they are paying now, I would definitely offer more specialized and individualized care.
Lol true.
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LysesKids 03:10 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
Wow, really? How does one make a living on that?
I survive on 4 lol... I made more in AR & I know I could get more in VA, but sadly where I live now, SAHM wanting a few extra $$ are a dime dozen
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Heidi 03:57 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Angelsj:
Wow, really? How does one make a living on that?
Well, probably a lot of people do. I only have 5, and that's actually fine for me.

Also, if she's not regulated, that's her limit. If she were, she could probably have more. Clearly, she's making more anyway because she takes more kids and doesn't even feed them...
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Thriftylady 07:10 PM 03-24-2015
Originally Posted by Heidi:
Well, probably a lot of people do. I only have 5, and that's actually fine for me.

Also, if she's not regulated, that's her limit. If she were, she could probably have more. Clearly, she's making more anyway because she takes more kids and doesn't even feed them...
I can have six and legally be unlicensed. In Kansas I was licensed for ten and usually never had more than six. Six is about my limit and still stay sane. I am actually amoung the cheapest in my area, but I am very frugal. Hubby says I pinch pennies into quarters lol.
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Unregistered 06:05 AM 03-25-2015
my legal limit is 5 and that is just fine for me! I actually do a mix of part time, so I only have a full house one day a week and I think it fits me well and offers enoug of an income. I always look at people who are over limit and think of what would happen if there was a fire. There is no way that one provider can get that many kids out in time, especially if they are so little. I would definitely be moving on from her care and turning her in! Do not pay her any more money!
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Blackcat31 06:12 AM 03-25-2015
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
my legal limit is 5 and that is just fine for me! I actually do a mix of part time, so I only have a full house one day a week and I think it fits me well and offers enoug of an income. I always look at people who are over limit and think of what would happen if there was a fire. There is no way that one provider can get that many kids out in time, especially if they are so little. I would definitely be moving on from her care and turning her in! Do not pay her any more money!
I am LEGALLY licensed for 12 children (14 with a helper) ALL between the ages of infancy to 5 yrs old.

We practice fire and storm drills on a bi-weekly basis.

We are out and away from the house in our meeting place within 1-2 minutes MAX.

With a good routine, good set up and a great group of daycare kids, 12 is NOT hard at all.

As a matter of fact, on Fridays when I only have half my group...there is a lot more chaos and a whole lot more misbehaving going on so just because one person can't manage a large group doesn't mean its that way for everyone.

10 is the max providers in their first year here can have but after 12 months, they can up their license to 12 or 14.
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Unregistered 08:24 AM 03-25-2015
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
I am LEGALLY licensed for 12 children (14 with a helper) ALL between the ages of infancy to 5 yrs old.

We practice fire and storm drills on a bi-weekly basis.

We are out and away from the house in our meeting place within 1-2 minutes MAX.

With a good routine, good set up and a great group of daycare kids, 12 is NOT hard at all.

As a matter of fact, on Fridays when I only have half my group...there is a lot more chaos and a whole lot more misbehaving going on so just because one person can't manage a large group doesn't mean its that way for everyone.

10 is the max providers in their first year here can have but after 12 months, they can up their license to 12 or 14.

Sorry! I didn't mean to offend you! I had no idea you could have in home childcare with that many kids. I am just looking at my house thinking of how I would be able to fit them all! lol I think it is awesome if you can manage that amount and you sound very upfront and professional, so parents know what tey are getting. I would be annoyed if I was the OP and every time I cam, there were way more kids than i was told would be there daily. People like you obviously take your job seriously and practice for emergencies, but just from the sound of this OP (not knowing her), it doesn't sound like this provider may be as prepared and that is when those terrible news stories happen. I hope that is not the case for this woman, but I would at least be very upfront and ask what the real deal is. And again, I meant no offense towards childcare providers who have large amounts of children, and have learned something new today
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Blackcat31 09:54 AM 03-25-2015
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
Sorry! I didn't mean to offend you! I had no idea you could have in home childcare with that many kids. I am just looking at my house thinking of how I would be able to fit them all! lol I think it is awesome if you can manage that amount and you sound very upfront and professional, so parents know what tey are getting. I would be annoyed if I was the OP and every time I cam, there were way more kids than i was told would be there daily. People like you obviously take your job seriously and practice for emergencies, but just from the sound of this OP (not knowing her), it doesn't sound like this provider may be as prepared and that is when those terrible news stories happen. I hope that is not the case for this woman, but I would at least be very upfront and ask what the real deal is. And again, I meant no offense towards childcare providers who have large amounts of children, and have learned something new today
No offense taken I'm pretty laid back, despite my strict business approach.

I also happen to be one of the few providers that didn't purposely get into this business for the rainbows and sunshine. I am an accidental provider (long story... my own kid was "that kid") and here I am 20+ years later.

But I think that ^^ helps me be more business than pushover...kwim?

I am very routine, very no nonsense and it helps ALOT. I see situations without the emotional part which I believe is the part that pulls other providers down or runs them out of business.

I am also the oldest of 6 kids (caregiving is second nature to me), was born "bossy" and knowing what I want/don't want. And,...I am the most optimistic, happy person you will ever run across.

When I first joined this forum, I was surprised at the difference in rules for ratios from state to state so I understand where the confusion came in but again, no offense taken at all.

It's all good.
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laundrymom 10:32 AM 03-25-2015
Originally Posted by Unregistered:
my legal limit is 5 and that is just fine for me! I actually do a mix of part time, so I only have a full house one day a week and I think it fits me well and offers enoug of an income. I always look at people who are over limit and think of what would happen if there was a fire. There is no way that one provider can get that many kids out in time, especially if they are so little. I would definitely be moving on from her care and turning her in! Do not pay her any more money!
About 11 years ago my previous neighbor(has since lost home and moved) had a fire during the day. I was outside with my group when the trucks pulled up. Panic. Everywhere.
I began catching kids over the privacy fence from the firemen. (Safe play space, licensed provider, I offered)
After all were out, I had 23 kids in my tiny yard. By myself. 7 of them were enrolled in my care, including the one that was my own.
The police officers came in my fence to assist. It was a nightmare.
I had no idea neighbor had so many.
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Heidi 10:34 AM 03-25-2015
Originally Posted by laundrymom:
About 11 years ago my previous neighbor(has since lost home and moved) had a fire during the day. I was outside with my group when the trucks pulled up. Panic. Everywhere.
I began catching kids over the privacy fence from the firemen. (Safe play space, licensed provider, I offered)
After all were out, I had 23 kids in my tiny yard. By myself. 7 of them were enrolled in my care, including the one that was my own.
The police officers came in my fence to assist. It was a nightmare.
I had no idea neighbor had so many.
In WI, you'd have to make a report to licensing (contact with public authorities), and they'd probably sight you after the fact for YOU being out of compliance. No, I am not kidding!
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laundrymom 10:43 AM 03-25-2015
Originally Posted by Heidi:
In WI, you'd have to make a report to licensing (contact with public authorities), and they'd probably sight you after the fact for YOU being out of compliance. No, I am not kidding!
Oh. Lol. Licensing came. Cps came. Everyone came. I was mearly a safe haven. No write ups for me. Neighbor went to jail. Apparently they found some .... Things growing... In her master bath.

Made for a long couple hours.
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