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Daycare Center and Family Home Forum>Zero Separation Anxiety- Good Or Bad?
EchoMom 08:00 AM 10-11-2012
Is it a good or bad sign when a child shows zero separation anxiety? Other threads got me thinking, I'm more of an AP parent, although not to the extreme. But I've never ever left my DS 13 months with a babysitter, I've always co-slept and still do, etc. But I know he would NOT do well at daycare! I can't even leave him at Sunday School. I can't even leave him outside with grandma (who he sees every single day, we live together) and run inside for a second without him freaking.
But then I have daycare babies who have been with me since 10 weeks and 4 months and are now 9 months and 13 months and they have never ever once cried for their parents leaving or returning. But they also don't seem really excited or give much reaction when their parents pick up either. And I have other 2 year olds that also don't react. I have 2 other 2 year olds that do sometimes cry when parents leave and are super excited when they return but mostly do fine.
We always talk about how awful it is to have a child with bad separation anxiety, but isn't it also bad when a child shows no reaction at all to drop off OR pick up???
I'm always wondering which is better? The no reaction kids seem much happier than my tantruming DS, but yet it seems upsetting to me that a child would have zero reaction even upon the parents return?
But then I have daycare babies who have been with me since 10 weeks and 4 months and are now 9 months and 13 months and they have never ever once cried for their parents leaving or returning. But they also don't seem really excited or give much reaction when their parents pick up either. And I have other 2 year olds that also don't react. I have 2 other 2 year olds that do sometimes cry when parents leave and are super excited when they return but mostly do fine.
We always talk about how awful it is to have a child with bad separation anxiety, but isn't it also bad when a child shows no reaction at all to drop off OR pick up???
I'm always wondering which is better? The no reaction kids seem much happier than my tantruming DS, but yet it seems upsetting to me that a child would have zero reaction even upon the parents return?
MNMum 08:26 AM 10-11-2012
How about this, I have a baby that cries when her parents pick her up. When she gets here, she is tearing away from them to go play. The parents have mostly taken it in stride, I think they went through a period where they felt bad. I know her parents are loving, etc. She is just the type of personality that wants to be at the party!
I think kids cope with separation very differently. Some show their discomfort with tears, others give their parents the cold shoulder.
Also, I think how the parents set the scene, contributes to how the child reacts. Also, these babies have been doing this since they were tiny, it's their normal. For your child, you haven't left him, so it's a huge change. I thought my kids would have a harder time when I finally left them. But we did it with sensitivity to their feelings and I always felt comfortable with the situation, and they did just fine.
I think kids cope with separation very differently. Some show their discomfort with tears, others give their parents the cold shoulder.
Also, I think how the parents set the scene, contributes to how the child reacts. Also, these babies have been doing this since they were tiny, it's their normal. For your child, you haven't left him, so it's a huge change. I thought my kids would have a harder time when I finally left them. But we did it with sensitivity to their feelings and I always felt comfortable with the situation, and they did just fine.
cheerfuldom 08:31 AM 10-11-2012
I wouldnt be too quick to judge these kids or these parents. If you left your son on a regular basis, he would get used to it. That doesnt necessarily mean that he would not be attached or have a healthy relationship with you, it just can mean that he is also used to his babysitter. I would be more worried about a child that had been with you for a long time and was still struggling on a daily basis with the transition at drop off. Its a GOOD thing that these little ones are comfortable at your home! While I do think that remaining with a parent or close family member is normally the ideal scenario, there is nothing wrong with a child forming a close bond with a caregiver either.
you also cant compare your son to these others kids. he may just have a more clingy personality or since he is 13 months, its pretty common to be super needy at that stage. he might surprise you in a few months and not care at all when you come and go....that doesnt mean he doesnt love you though.
my oldest was 18 months before she ever gave me a hug. she was so not affectionate at all. it probably seemed weird to other people though. now she is 4.5 and about five times as clingy, LOL
you also cant compare your son to these others kids. he may just have a more clingy personality or since he is 13 months, its pretty common to be super needy at that stage. he might surprise you in a few months and not care at all when you come and go....that doesnt mean he doesnt love you though.
my oldest was 18 months before she ever gave me a hug. she was so not affectionate at all. it probably seemed weird to other people though. now she is 4.5 and about five times as clingy, LOL
EchoMom 09:12 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
I wouldnt be too quick to judge these kids or these parents. If you left your son on a regular basis, he would get used to it. That doesnt necessarily mean that he would not be attached or have a healthy relationship with you, it just can mean that he is also used to his babysitter. I would be more worried about a child that had been with you for a long time and was still struggling on a daily basis with the transition at drop off. Its a GOOD thing that these little ones are comfortable at your home! While I do think that remaining with a parent or close family member is normally the ideal scenario, there is nothing wrong with a child forming a close bond with a caregiver either.
you also cant compare your son to these others kids. he may just have a more clingy personality or since he is 13 months, its pretty common to be super needy at that stage. he might surprise you in a few months and not care at all when you come and go....that doesnt mean he doesnt love you though.
my oldest was 18 months before she ever gave me a hug. she was so not affectionate at all. it probably seemed weird to other people though. now she is 4.5 and about five times as clingy, LOL
I wasn't judging them, I was really just wondering. I wouldnt be too quick to judge these kids or these parents. If you left your son on a regular basis, he would get used to it. That doesnt necessarily mean that he would not be attached or have a healthy relationship with you, it just can mean that he is also used to his babysitter. I would be more worried about a child that had been with you for a long time and was still struggling on a daily basis with the transition at drop off. Its a GOOD thing that these little ones are comfortable at your home! While I do think that remaining with a parent or close family member is normally the ideal scenario, there is nothing wrong with a child forming a close bond with a caregiver either.
you also cant compare your son to these others kids. he may just have a more clingy personality or since he is 13 months, its pretty common to be super needy at that stage. he might surprise you in a few months and not care at all when you come and go....that doesnt mean he doesnt love you though.
my oldest was 18 months before she ever gave me a hug. she was so not affectionate at all. it probably seemed weird to other people though. now she is 4.5 and about five times as clingy, LOL
Willow 09:44 AM 10-11-2012
A securely attached child will generally(emphasis on generally) be a bit concerned with their parent (or primary caregiver) leaving them in the care of someone else, but will rebound quickly and function just fine without them. Upon return a securely attached kiddo will generally greet them happily.
Any variation of that can be due to a particular stage, a mere bad day, or if it's been a long standing trend can also be the result of an attachment disorder.
A child who goes into complete and utter distress mode when their parent leaves them and stays that way for much if not the entire duration of the absence is either not securely attached or is grossly undersocialized.
If you'd like more information on this I have loads of links.
After dealing with loads of therapists and attachment disorder diagnosis in my foster kiddos it's become a bit of a point of interest for me.
I think the part I struggle with most is when daycare parents see extreme separation anxiety as a sign that their child just loves them beyond measure. That's not at all what it means, and I always feel awful for the child left languishing like that. I took a drop in 18 month old earlier this year who's grandmother was his primary caregiver, out of the sight of either her or the boys mother his behavior bordered on the psychotic. I genuinely feared for his mental health and wondered how on earth they were one day going to try to get him to school
On the flip side are parents who think when their kids tear out of their vehicle without even saying goodbye and scream and pitch a fit about going home that that's a nice little signal to them that their child merely has fun here. Ermmm....nope. If you have to drag your kids to your vehicle kicking at the end of the day because they don't want to go with you, that's so far from ok it's not even funny. But it's not my place to explain or fix how not ok that really is.
I am big on attachment parenting and have been since before my oldest was born. I nursed, wore them, co-slept, never did CIO, never spanked or slapped them. I've never worked outside the home, and I've never left my kids with a babysitter outside of my immediate family (they are currently 8 and nearly 10). They were also enrolled in various sports and activities from toddlerhood on. I took them with me everywhere and taught them that the world was a safe place to explore. I've never heard anything but extreme praise from their teachers, coaches and the general public about how kind, polite, well adjusted and smart they are. I would not put up with them losing their minds in my absence at any age. I'm not sure what steps I'd need to take if that were what was occurring but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them having that reaction to anything in life, much less that reaction to something having to do with me.
Any variation of that can be due to a particular stage, a mere bad day, or if it's been a long standing trend can also be the result of an attachment disorder.
A child who goes into complete and utter distress mode when their parent leaves them and stays that way for much if not the entire duration of the absence is either not securely attached or is grossly undersocialized.
If you'd like more information on this I have loads of links.
After dealing with loads of therapists and attachment disorder diagnosis in my foster kiddos it's become a bit of a point of interest for me.
I think the part I struggle with most is when daycare parents see extreme separation anxiety as a sign that their child just loves them beyond measure. That's not at all what it means, and I always feel awful for the child left languishing like that. I took a drop in 18 month old earlier this year who's grandmother was his primary caregiver, out of the sight of either her or the boys mother his behavior bordered on the psychotic. I genuinely feared for his mental health and wondered how on earth they were one day going to try to get him to school
On the flip side are parents who think when their kids tear out of their vehicle without even saying goodbye and scream and pitch a fit about going home that that's a nice little signal to them that their child merely has fun here. Ermmm....nope. If you have to drag your kids to your vehicle kicking at the end of the day because they don't want to go with you, that's so far from ok it's not even funny. But it's not my place to explain or fix how not ok that really is.
I am big on attachment parenting and have been since before my oldest was born. I nursed, wore them, co-slept, never did CIO, never spanked or slapped them. I've never worked outside the home, and I've never left my kids with a babysitter outside of my immediate family (they are currently 8 and nearly 10). They were also enrolled in various sports and activities from toddlerhood on. I took them with me everywhere and taught them that the world was a safe place to explore. I've never heard anything but extreme praise from their teachers, coaches and the general public about how kind, polite, well adjusted and smart they are. I would not put up with them losing their minds in my absence at any age. I'm not sure what steps I'd need to take if that were what was occurring but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them having that reaction to anything in life, much less that reaction to something having to do with me.
cheerfuldom 10:10 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
A securely attached child will generally(emphasis on generally) be a bit concerned with their parent (or primary caregiver) leaving them in the care of someone else, but will rebound quickly and function just fine without them. Upon return a securely attached kiddo will generally greet them happily.
Any variation of that can be due to a particular stage, a mere bad day, or if it's been a long standing trend can also be the result of an attachment disorder.
A child who goes into complete and utter distress mode when their parent leaves them and stays that way for much if not the entire duration of the absence is either not securely attached or is grossly undersocialized.
If you'd like more information on this I have loads of links.
After dealing with loads of therapists and attachment disorder diagnosis in my foster kiddos it's become a bit of a point of interest for me.
I think the part I struggle with most is when daycare parents see extreme separation anxiety as a sign that their child just loves them beyond measure. That's not at all what it means, and I always feel awful for the child left languishing like that. I took a drop in 18 month old earlier this year who's grandmother was his primary caregiver, out of the sight of either her or the boys mother his behavior bordered on the psychotic. I genuinely feared for his mental health and wondered how on earth they were one day going to try to get him to school
On the flip side are parents who think when their kids tear out of their vehicle without even saying goodbye and scream and pitch a fit about going home that that's a nice little signal to them that their child merely has fun here. Ermmm....nope. If you have to drag your kids to your vehicle kicking at the end of the day because they don't want to go with you, that's so far from ok it's not even funny. But it's not my place to explain or fix how not ok that really is.
I am big on attachment parenting and have been since before my oldest was born. I nursed, wore them, co-slept, never did CIO, never spanked or slapped them. I've never worked outside the home, and I've never left my kids with a babysitter outside of my immediate family (they are currently 8 and nearly 10). They were also enrolled in various sports and activities from toddlerhood on. I took them with me everywhere and taught them that the world was a safe place to explore. I've never heard anything but extreme praise from their teachers, coaches and the general public about how kind, polite, well adjusted and smart they are. I would not put up with them losing their minds in my absence at any age. I'm not sure what steps I'd need to take if that were what was occurring but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them having that reaction to anything in life, much less that reaction to something having to do with me.
interesting post. I have had one adopted child in my care as well as one (possibly other undiagnosed) special needs kids in care. It really is important to explore healthy attachment when you have special cases like that and be sensitive to the particular situation. but like you said, extremes in either direction can be an indicator of something further....but not always.A securely attached child will generally(emphasis on generally) be a bit concerned with their parent (or primary caregiver) leaving them in the care of someone else, but will rebound quickly and function just fine without them. Upon return a securely attached kiddo will generally greet them happily.
Any variation of that can be due to a particular stage, a mere bad day, or if it's been a long standing trend can also be the result of an attachment disorder.
A child who goes into complete and utter distress mode when their parent leaves them and stays that way for much if not the entire duration of the absence is either not securely attached or is grossly undersocialized.
If you'd like more information on this I have loads of links.
After dealing with loads of therapists and attachment disorder diagnosis in my foster kiddos it's become a bit of a point of interest for me.
I think the part I struggle with most is when daycare parents see extreme separation anxiety as a sign that their child just loves them beyond measure. That's not at all what it means, and I always feel awful for the child left languishing like that. I took a drop in 18 month old earlier this year who's grandmother was his primary caregiver, out of the sight of either her or the boys mother his behavior bordered on the psychotic. I genuinely feared for his mental health and wondered how on earth they were one day going to try to get him to school
On the flip side are parents who think when their kids tear out of their vehicle without even saying goodbye and scream and pitch a fit about going home that that's a nice little signal to them that their child merely has fun here. Ermmm....nope. If you have to drag your kids to your vehicle kicking at the end of the day because they don't want to go with you, that's so far from ok it's not even funny. But it's not my place to explain or fix how not ok that really is.
I am big on attachment parenting and have been since before my oldest was born. I nursed, wore them, co-slept, never did CIO, never spanked or slapped them. I've never worked outside the home, and I've never left my kids with a babysitter outside of my immediate family (they are currently 8 and nearly 10). They were also enrolled in various sports and activities from toddlerhood on. I took them with me everywhere and taught them that the world was a safe place to explore. I've never heard anything but extreme praise from their teachers, coaches and the general public about how kind, polite, well adjusted and smart they are. I would not put up with them losing their minds in my absence at any age. I'm not sure what steps I'd need to take if that were what was occurring but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them having that reaction to anything in life, much less that reaction to something having to do with me.
Willow 10:25 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
interesting post. I have had one adopted child in my care as well as one (possibly other undiagnosed) special needs kids in care. It really is important to explore healthy attachment when you have special cases like that and be sensitive to the particular situation. but like you said, extremes in either direction can be an indicator of something further....but not always.
It can be tough to nail down exactly what's going on in regards to attachment, a professional is really the only one qualified to make such an assessment. In extreme cases it can be pretty obvious though.interesting post. I have had one adopted child in my care as well as one (possibly other undiagnosed) special needs kids in care. It really is important to explore healthy attachment when you have special cases like that and be sensitive to the particular situation. but like you said, extremes in either direction can be an indicator of something further....but not always.
I was peeking around and found this:
http://psychology.about.com/od/lovea...entstyle_4.htm
The entire 9 pages is good, but page 4 in particular describes the main indicators of secure attachment in childhood and what that can equate to once the child is grown.
jojosmommy 10:47 AM 10-11-2012
There is research that a securly attached child will not cry long and for some at all when left with someone. They trust that you will return and in turn trust the caregiver they are with.
I do not believe a child who cries or on the flip side doesnt cry when mom leaves has any type of disorder. I have had both kinds of kids in my daycare and my own kids have gone from being the crier when left with dad (yep
) , gma, or at drop in care to being attached enough to be ok with being left.
I have one dck who cried daily when picked up from daycare. Never cried when dropped off. Mom and I laughed it off. It had nothing to do with her attachment to me or mom. Now at 15 months (been here since birth) she cries occassionally when being dropped off and occassionally at pick up. To me this is more of a toddler behavior, wanting something other than what is happening. Wanting to be outside when you bring them in, wanting to play when you want them to go. That has nothing to do with attachment.
I do not believe a child who cries or on the flip side doesnt cry when mom leaves has any type of disorder. I have had both kinds of kids in my daycare and my own kids have gone from being the crier when left with dad (yep
) , gma, or at drop in care to being attached enough to be ok with being left. I have one dck who cried daily when picked up from daycare. Never cried when dropped off. Mom and I laughed it off. It had nothing to do with her attachment to me or mom. Now at 15 months (been here since birth) she cries occassionally when being dropped off and occassionally at pick up. To me this is more of a toddler behavior, wanting something other than what is happening. Wanting to be outside when you bring them in, wanting to play when you want them to go. That has nothing to do with attachment.
Willow 11:32 AM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by jojosmommy:
There is research that a securly attached child will not cry long and for some at all when left with someone. They trust that you will return and in turn trust the caregiver they are with.
I do not believe a child who cries or on the flip side doesnt cry when mom leaves has any type of disorder. I have had both kinds of kids in my daycare and my own kids have gone from being the crier when left with dad (yep) , gma, or at drop in care to being attached enough to be ok with being left.
I have one dck who cried daily when picked up from daycare. Never cried when dropped off. Mom and I laughed it off. It had nothing to do with her attachment to me or mom. Now at 15 months (been here since birth) she cries occassionally when being dropped off and occassionally at pick up. To me this is more of a toddler behavior, wanting something other than what is happening. Wanting to be outside when you bring them in, wanting to play when you want them to go. That has nothing to do with attachment.
There is research that a securly attached child will not cry long and for some at all when left with someone. They trust that you will return and in turn trust the caregiver they are with.
I do not believe a child who cries or on the flip side doesnt cry when mom leaves has any type of disorder. I have had both kinds of kids in my daycare and my own kids have gone from being the crier when left with dad (yep
) , gma, or at drop in care to being attached enough to be ok with being left. I have one dck who cried daily when picked up from daycare. Never cried when dropped off. Mom and I laughed it off. It had nothing to do with her attachment to me or mom. Now at 15 months (been here since birth) she cries occassionally when being dropped off and occassionally at pick up. To me this is more of a toddler behavior, wanting something other than what is happening. Wanting to be outside when you bring them in, wanting to play when you want them to go. That has nothing to do with attachment.
You're right. But what you mentioned there wasn't anything extreme either.
However, a child who *always* panics and cannot function without their parent around might have a problem with attachment, on the flip side a child who is *always* ambivalent or oppositional towards their parent might have a problem with attachment.
There has been loads of research done on the topic.
It's where AP originated from. The theories that attachment and the first 3 years are paramount in shaping the child and how he/she relates to the world for the rest of their lives.
ETA - I had a foster kiddo once, little girl, age two. She went from couldn't care less who was around but would attempt to solicit attention in inappropriate (and very fake) ways to get things she wanted *to* starting to attach to me through intense therapy. Which caused her to turn a 180 and work herself into such a frenzied fit that when I simply closed the door to go to the bathroom she would vomit....not a little, like empty the entire contents of her GI tract. She would cut her toes and bruise her legs trying desperately to climb over the gate I was instructed to put in her bedroom doorway when the closing the door bit became an obvious trigger. I got my hair colored while I had her, just some highlights and low lights and for a time after that when she didn't recognize the back of my head she would panic even if I was standing there right next to her. When I tried to comfort her she would either regress (melt into an infant like puddle) or disassociate (literally stare off in a trance as if she were in another world entirely), toward the end of her time with me she started to physically lash out (which was actually a good and welcome sign compared). She was first diagnosed with Disorganized Attachment, but she was well on her way to full on RAD.
The boy I took earlier this year literally screamed ALL. DAY. LONG. and then looked incredibly confused and spent when his mom did come back to pick him up. 8+ hours a day for a week and a half. I almost *ALMOST* lost my marbles.
So when I'm talking about extremes of either possibly being an indication of an attachment disorder I'm not talking about a few tears when a kiddo is being left with grandma and grandpa for the weekend and some homesickness or the occasional tantrum when plucked off my swingset. I am talking about the long term crippling effect of a child's ability to function anywhere but next to the one caregiver they're attached to (even if inappropriately attached it's still how they form the base for all of their relationships and how they relate to everyone else).
Blackcat31 11:38 AM 10-11-2012
Maybe this is off the topic but maybe not....but what about the child who seriously cannot do anything on their own without continuous cues and verbal motivators?
I have had several children who have parents that spend an enormous amount of hands-on time with their child, but almost to the extreme where the child isn't capable of even figuring out what comes next or what to do without some sort of constant instruction.
Neither has had any trouble leaving parent and isn't overly excited or fanatical about it when the parent returns but during the course of the day will literally just stand in one spot waiting for me to almost say "Put one foot in front of the other" kind of directions....kwim?
Both the kids I have/had were preschool ages (2.5-4 yrs) and full time. Neither caught on significantly at all despite being here for a couple years and having had the same routine day in and day out while here.
That particular type child baffles me.
I have had several children who have parents that spend an enormous amount of hands-on time with their child, but almost to the extreme where the child isn't capable of even figuring out what comes next or what to do without some sort of constant instruction.
Neither has had any trouble leaving parent and isn't overly excited or fanatical about it when the parent returns but during the course of the day will literally just stand in one spot waiting for me to almost say "Put one foot in front of the other" kind of directions....kwim?
Both the kids I have/had were preschool ages (2.5-4 yrs) and full time. Neither caught on significantly at all despite being here for a couple years and having had the same routine day in and day out while here.
That particular type child baffles me.
Willow 12:24 PM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Maybe this is off the topic but maybe not....but what about the child who seriously cannot do anything on their own without continuous cues and verbal motivators?
I have had several children who have parents that spend an enormous amount of hands-on time with their child, but almost to the extreme where the child isn't capable of even figuring out what comes next or what to do without some sort of constant instruction.
Neither has had any trouble leaving parent and isn't overly excited or fanatical about it when the parent returns but during the course of the day will literally just stand in one spot waiting for me to almost say "Put one foot in front of the other" kind of directions....kwim?
Both the kids I have/had were preschool ages (2.5-4 yrs) and full time. Neither caught on significantly at all despite being here for a couple years and having had the same routine day in and day out while here.
That particular type child baffles me.
Maybe this is off the topic but maybe not....but what about the child who seriously cannot do anything on their own without continuous cues and verbal motivators?
I have had several children who have parents that spend an enormous amount of hands-on time with their child, but almost to the extreme where the child isn't capable of even figuring out what comes next or what to do without some sort of constant instruction.
Neither has had any trouble leaving parent and isn't overly excited or fanatical about it when the parent returns but during the course of the day will literally just stand in one spot waiting for me to almost say "Put one foot in front of the other" kind of directions....kwim?
Both the kids I have/had were preschool ages (2.5-4 yrs) and full time. Neither caught on significantly at all despite being here for a couple years and having had the same routine day in and day out while here.
That particular type child baffles me.
I'd peg that a form of like, deprivation? Or extreme enabling? A child never allowed or required to think for themselves will lack all imagination, inspiration or sense of self.
Much like robots?
I hate to use this as an example but I just can't help myself. When DH and I were dating I got him a dog. I had three, and he adored them. Found some phenomenal well respected lines and paid nearly $1000 and a trip out of state for what I expected to be the most genius bird dog that ever lived. We lived more than an hour apart and he missed them when I was gone during the week. Anyhoo, pup came during the winter when he was laid off for a couple of months, which was great because it afforded him loads of time with him. It wasn't until we moved in together that spring that I realized the road he'd taken with his training. There were a MIIIILLLLLIIIOOOOON cues, for fracking - everything. And they were constantly repeated, like every five seconds lol. I quickly ascertained the reason why the dog was such a butt and didn't listen on weekends when I was up, was because he was just plain sick and tired of being told what to do all the time or at that point didn't know how to function without the constant reminders. You hear no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, nooooo, noooooooo....or (throw the ball) - fetch, fetch, fetch it up, fetch it up boy, get it, go get the ball!!!!!......and eventually the dog was bound to either go robot, or start giving us the finger.
He is now usually still all either robot, or finger givin' around DH, depending on his mood. The dog I swear would forget to breathe if he wasn't standing there telling him to do it, unless there's something he wants, like to go get a birdie, at which point dog gives him the finger and DH is left standing there hollaring out command after unheeded command. He is the biggest butthead idiot around him and DH doesn't have a clue why.......I've tried speaking to him about it, multiple times, perhaps too many which is why DH either goes robot or finger givin' around me in regards to the issue
To prove my point though I took our furry butthead on a 180 trip and now I don't speak to him at all. Haven't for about the last year or so now? I let my facial expressions, hand signals or whistle bleets do the talking, I ask once, that's it and then I require compliance......and he is indeed the most genius bird dog that ever lived.....around me.
DH hates that.
I refuse to talk to him about it anymore.
Hoping it'll have the same effect on him someday
But aaaaaanyhoo, the dog behaves to this day the way it's expected to....depending on who's expecting what out of him. Same usually goes for kids. It's why you can have kiddos who are angels for you and parents who don't believe it because all their children have ever been around them is crazy evil.
I'd be willing to bet the kids you spoke of BC behaved the way they'd ascertained adults expected them to. I can't think or do for myself, I have to wait for help first. And that turned into all out dependence on being told what to do 24/7. I'd be willing to bet that although you were attempting to break that mold while they were with you, the behavior was expected to revert back to complete dependence the second they left at the end of the day. You were fighting an uphill battle against instilled and reinforced dependence. If the parents would have backed off completely I bet then and only then would you maybe have seen a glimmer of independence start to take shape.
cheerfuldom 01:23 PM 10-11-2012
more interesting posts! as far as the "robot" children, I have one of those. She is new and has made a small glimmer of progress over the last 6 weeks. Yesterday she played kitchen by herself and it was like this huge sigh of relief to me. For weeks she would just stand there with a blank look on her face and confusion about what to do. and I have literally had to say "put one foot in front of the other" to get her walking, get her out the door, get her to do anything. it is very baffling because while she wasnt being "bad" necessarily, this type of behavior is very disruptive in its own way. She is 3.5 and I am spending so much time getting her to do the most basic of tasks. I will tell everyone to go to the table for lunch and they will all run....she will need step by step instructions to go to the table, get in the booster seat, put your legs in front of you, eat your lunch....then pick up that cheese and put it in your mouth, and on and on. My word she is driving me crazy but again, has made progress in the last two months. She is finally exhibited some facial expressions besides the blank stare and finally playing a tiny bit instead of immediately finding some place to sit in every room she goes into. But now that we are making progress, I am going to hang in there with her! BTW, she has never been in care and lives with about 6 adults, no other kids. She is HUGELY undersocialized and does quirky things like refer to herself in third person, talks to herself but not the other kids and things like that.
Blackcat31 01:48 PM 10-11-2012
Wow! Willow~ I think you serious "get" what I am talking about with these robot children. It's like they are hypnotized or something.
I think your theory (about the dog) is probably spot on. I think the parents have robbed their child of the ability to figure out what comes next and to process things in their minds since they are so used to someone stepping in immediately and doing things for themselves.
The one little one I have like this is 2.5 and the mom is a severe helicopter parent. My DH says she is a "velcro-parent"....
Cheer, you are so right! This kind of behavior is almost disruptive and difficult to deal with in its own way and sometimes VERY frustrating.
The saddest part is it doesn't seem so bad when the kid(s) are younger but as soon as the social aspect becomes more influential and when the associative and cooperative play stages should start happening, the kids are left sitting alone looking like a deer in the headlights.
It's like they completely missed the cues the other kids picked up in parallel play.
I think your theory (about the dog) is probably spot on. I think the parents have robbed their child of the ability to figure out what comes next and to process things in their minds since they are so used to someone stepping in immediately and doing things for themselves.
The one little one I have like this is 2.5 and the mom is a severe helicopter parent. My DH says she is a "velcro-parent"....
Cheer, you are so right! This kind of behavior is almost disruptive and difficult to deal with in its own way and sometimes VERY frustrating.
The saddest part is it doesn't seem so bad when the kid(s) are younger but as soon as the social aspect becomes more influential and when the associative and cooperative play stages should start happening, the kids are left sitting alone looking like a deer in the headlights.
It's like they completely missed the cues the other kids picked up in parallel play.
spud912 01:54 PM 10-11-2012
I don't know....I know what the research says but I think that you can't really put children into a category always based on research. Generally...yes, but every child is so different, it's hard to say. My younger dd is very secure and does a million things on her own, she is very advanced compared to my older dd. However, she will not tolerate me dropping her off at a daycare setting. My mom will come over and watch her and she loves it, but as soon as we attempt to drop her off at the gym playground, she flips out. She will cry and go into hysterics the entire.time.we.are there! She literally cannot handle it. Based on the research, that would indicate that she has an insecure attachment. I have a dck who is happy to come and cries every time her parents come. I think she has a perfectly secure attachment to her parents...she just has fun here!
Willow 02:03 PM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by spud912:
Based on the research, that would indicate that she has an insecure attachment. I have a dck who is happy to come and cries every time her parents come. I think she has a perfectly secure attachment to her parents...she just has fun here!
Based on the research, that would indicate that she has an insecure attachment. I have a dck who is happy to come and cries every time her parents come. I think she has a perfectly secure attachment to her parents...she just has fun here!
There is sooooo much more to it than that though.
Kids can pitch fits just to pitch fits. Kids can pitch fits because they know they'll get their way. Kids can pitch fits because they truly dislike a situation.
That doesn't mean they have any sort of attachment disorder.
If your daughter can be dropped off with other people in different situations and function just fine (as you indicated) then that right there tells you it's an issue with the environment, not her ability to attach or her experiences with attachment in her past.
As for the daycare child you describe, if she displays separation anxiety upon her parents departure and happiness when they return elsewhere in life then that's plenty to assume she's securely attached. Children can also form secure attachments with their daycare providers (quite common actually) if they spend enough time with them, which could explain her being just fine with you and your home.
You can't analyze one single scenario and declare a kid this or that. An assessment would need to be done on the child's entire life and current behaviors to make the determination if an actual attachment disorder is at play.
Bookworm 02:11 PM 10-11-2012
Does anyone know how public schools handle separation anxiety? I have a "Velcro-parent" and their robot child so I'm curious.
cheerfuldom 02:15 PM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by Blackcat31:
Wow! Willow~ I think you serious "get" what I am talking about with these robot children. It's like they are hypnotized or something.
I think your theory (about the dog) is probably spot on. I think the parents have robbed their child of the ability to figure out what comes next and to process things in their minds since they are so used to someone stepping in immediately and doing things for themselves.
The one little one I have like this is 2.5 and the mom is a severe helicopter parent. My DH says she is a "velcro-parent"....
Cheer, you are so right! This kind of behavior is almost disruptive and difficult to deal with in its own way and sometimes VERY frustrating.
The saddest part is it doesn't seem so bad when the kid(s) are younger but as soon as the social aspect becomes more influential and when the associative and cooperative play stages should start happening, the kids are left sitting alone looking like a deer in the headlights.
It's like they completely missed the cues the other kids picked up in parallel play.
parallel play? whats that? Wow! Willow~ I think you serious "get" what I am talking about with these robot children. It's like they are hypnotized or something.
I think your theory (about the dog) is probably spot on. I think the parents have robbed their child of the ability to figure out what comes next and to process things in their minds since they are so used to someone stepping in immediately and doing things for themselves.
The one little one I have like this is 2.5 and the mom is a severe helicopter parent. My DH says she is a "velcro-parent"....
Cheer, you are so right! This kind of behavior is almost disruptive and difficult to deal with in its own way and sometimes VERY frustrating.
The saddest part is it doesn't seem so bad when the kid(s) are younger but as soon as the social aspect becomes more influential and when the associative and cooperative play stages should start happening, the kids are left sitting alone looking like a deer in the headlights.
It's like they completely missed the cues the other kids picked up in parallel play.
havent seen too much from my kiddo yet, she has a long way to go. Actually, I have been starting her out playing with the babies/toddlers and she does watch them and learn from them. normally I wouldnt do that but for her, it is helping a bit. my 17 month old is fairly good at it and so she can teach this DCK a thing or two
Blackcat31 02:22 PM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by cheerfuldom:
parallel play? whats that? havent seen too much from my kiddo yet, she has a long way to go. Actually, I have been starting her out playing with the babies/toddlers and she does watch them and learn from them. normally I wouldnt do that but for her, it is helping a bit. my 17 month old is fairly good at it and so she can teach this DCK a thing or two
parallel play? whats that?
havent seen too much from my kiddo yet, she has a long way to go. Actually, I have been starting her out playing with the babies/toddlers and she does watch them and learn from them. normally I wouldnt do that but for her, it is helping a bit. my 17 month old is fairly good at it and so she can teach this DCK a thing or two1.Unoccupied play: the child is relatively stationary and appears to be performing random movements with no apparent purpose. A relatively infrequent style of play.
2.Solitary play: the child is completely engrossed in playing and does not seem to notice other children. Most often seen in children between 2 and 3 years-old.
3.Onlooker play: child takes an interest in other children's play but does not join in. May ask questions or just talk to other children, but the main activity is simply to watch.
4.Parallel play: the child mimics other children's play but doesn't actively engage with them. For example they may use the same toy.
5.Associative play: now more interested in each other than the toys they are using. This is the first category that involves strong social interaction between the children while they play.
6.Cooperative play: some organization enters children's play, for example the playing has some goal and children often adopt roles and act as a group
Those are the developmental stages of play that each child supposedly goes through while learning to be social and learning social ettiquitte.
spud912 02:22 PM 10-11-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
There is sooooo much more to it than that though.
Kids can pitch fits just to pitch fits. Kids can pitch fits because they know they'll get their way. Kids can pitch fits because they truly dislike a situation.
That doesn't mean they have any sort of attachment disorder.
If your daughter can be dropped off with other people in different situations and function just fine (as you indicated) then that right there tells you it's an issue with the environment, not her ability to attach or her experiences with attachment in her past.
As for the daycare child you describe, if she displays separation anxiety upon her parents departure and happiness when they return elsewhere in life then that's plenty to assume she's securely attached. Children can also form secure attachments with their daycare providers (quite common actually) if they spend enough time with them, which could explain her being just fine with you and your home.
You can't analyze one single scenario and declare a kid this or that. An assessment would need to be done on the child's entire life and current behaviors to make the determination if an actual attachment disorder is at play.
Fair enough There is sooooo much more to it than that though.
Kids can pitch fits just to pitch fits. Kids can pitch fits because they know they'll get their way. Kids can pitch fits because they truly dislike a situation.
That doesn't mean they have any sort of attachment disorder.
If your daughter can be dropped off with other people in different situations and function just fine (as you indicated) then that right there tells you it's an issue with the environment, not her ability to attach or her experiences with attachment in her past.
As for the daycare child you describe, if she displays separation anxiety upon her parents departure and happiness when they return elsewhere in life then that's plenty to assume she's securely attached. Children can also form secure attachments with their daycare providers (quite common actually) if they spend enough time with them, which could explain her being just fine with you and your home.
You can't analyze one single scenario and declare a kid this or that. An assessment would need to be done on the child's entire life and current behaviors to make the determination if an actual attachment disorder is at play.
. I getcha!
EntropyControlSpecialist 05:34 AM 10-12-2012
Originally Posted by Willow:
A securely attached child will generally(emphasis on generally) be a bit concerned with their parent (or primary caregiver) leaving them in the care of someone else, but will rebound quickly and function just fine without them. Upon return a securely attached kiddo will generally greet them happily.
Any variation of that can be due to a particular stage, a mere bad day, or if it's been a long standing trend can also be the result of an attachment disorder.
A child who goes into complete and utter distress mode when their parent leaves them and stays that way for much if not the entire duration of the absence is either not securely attached or is grossly undersocialized.
If you'd like more information on this I have loads of links.
After dealing with loads of therapists and attachment disorder diagnosis in my foster kiddos it's become a bit of a point of interest for me.
I think the part I struggle with most is when daycare parents see extreme separation anxiety as a sign that their child just loves them beyond measure. That's not at all what it means, and I always feel awful for the child left languishing like that. I took a drop in 18 month old earlier this year who's grandmother was his primary caregiver, out of the sight of either her or the boys mother his behavior bordered on the psychotic. I genuinely feared for his mental health and wondered how on earth they were one day going to try to get him to school
On the flip side are parents who think when their kids tear out of their vehicle without even saying goodbye and scream and pitch a fit about going home that that's a nice little signal to them that their child merely has fun here. Ermmm....nope. If you have to drag your kids to your vehicle kicking at the end of the day because they don't want to go with you, that's so far from ok it's not even funny. But it's not my place to explain or fix how not ok that really is.
I am big on attachment parenting and have been since before my oldest was born. I nursed, wore them, co-slept, never did CIO, never spanked or slapped them. I've never worked outside the home, and I've never left my kids with a babysitter outside of my immediate family (they are currently 8 and nearly 10). They were also enrolled in various sports and activities from toddlerhood on. I took them with me everywhere and taught them that the world was a safe place to explore. I've never heard anything but extreme praise from their teachers, coaches and the general public about how kind, polite, well adjusted and smart they are. I would not put up with them losing their minds in my absence at any age. I'm not sure what steps I'd need to take if that were what was occurring but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them having that reaction to anything in life, much less that reaction to something having to do with me.
So interesting. We had one like this for 5 weeks. The only person she would talk to was me. She would attempt to follow me around and repeat the same things over and over and over and over. She refused to eat while in our care (9 hours) as well saying our food was "gross" and would wait to go home and eat cookies and fast food. She wasn't a good fit for our group.A securely attached child will generally(emphasis on generally) be a bit concerned with their parent (or primary caregiver) leaving them in the care of someone else, but will rebound quickly and function just fine without them. Upon return a securely attached kiddo will generally greet them happily.
Any variation of that can be due to a particular stage, a mere bad day, or if it's been a long standing trend can also be the result of an attachment disorder.
A child who goes into complete and utter distress mode when their parent leaves them and stays that way for much if not the entire duration of the absence is either not securely attached or is grossly undersocialized.
If you'd like more information on this I have loads of links.
After dealing with loads of therapists and attachment disorder diagnosis in my foster kiddos it's become a bit of a point of interest for me.
I think the part I struggle with most is when daycare parents see extreme separation anxiety as a sign that their child just loves them beyond measure. That's not at all what it means, and I always feel awful for the child left languishing like that. I took a drop in 18 month old earlier this year who's grandmother was his primary caregiver, out of the sight of either her or the boys mother his behavior bordered on the psychotic. I genuinely feared for his mental health and wondered how on earth they were one day going to try to get him to school
On the flip side are parents who think when their kids tear out of their vehicle without even saying goodbye and scream and pitch a fit about going home that that's a nice little signal to them that their child merely has fun here. Ermmm....nope. If you have to drag your kids to your vehicle kicking at the end of the day because they don't want to go with you, that's so far from ok it's not even funny. But it's not my place to explain or fix how not ok that really is.
I am big on attachment parenting and have been since before my oldest was born. I nursed, wore them, co-slept, never did CIO, never spanked or slapped them. I've never worked outside the home, and I've never left my kids with a babysitter outside of my immediate family (they are currently 8 and nearly 10). They were also enrolled in various sports and activities from toddlerhood on. I took them with me everywhere and taught them that the world was a safe place to explore. I've never heard anything but extreme praise from their teachers, coaches and the general public about how kind, polite, well adjusted and smart they are. I would not put up with them losing their minds in my absence at any age. I'm not sure what steps I'd need to take if that were what was occurring but I wouldn't feel comfortable with them having that reaction to anything in life, much less that reaction to something having to do with me.
She was nearly 4.
canadiancare 06:05 AM 10-12-2012
I find that kids go through stages of separation issues and the last is around 21 months in my experience. I usually have my kids from 1 year (end of mat leave) to beginning school (4 yrs old) so they get used to coming to me over the 3 year period and while some days they are tired and cranky when they get dropped off I usually just get a Hello! and the day begins.
All my parents pick up within a 10 minute window as I close at 4 30 (I work 630-430) so everyone has pretty well the same shift. At 4 20 we get back from our walk and I don't take out any new toys we stay in the front of the house with some chalk or something not overly interesting so that pick up can go relatively quickly. I do have one kid who protests and gives his mum a hard time to put him in the car but I think it is because he is an only child who really loves the social part of daycare so going home isn't as much fun.
I have one kid who is my "needy" child and she does a fake whiney cry for 30 seconds when I open the door in the morning and then again as soon as she sees her mother at night. It kind of bugs me but I know that is just her.
All my parents pick up within a 10 minute window as I close at 4 30 (I work 630-430) so everyone has pretty well the same shift. At 4 20 we get back from our walk and I don't take out any new toys we stay in the front of the house with some chalk or something not overly interesting so that pick up can go relatively quickly. I do have one kid who protests and gives his mum a hard time to put him in the car but I think it is because he is an only child who really loves the social part of daycare so going home isn't as much fun.
I have one kid who is my "needy" child and she does a fake whiney cry for 30 seconds when I open the door in the morning and then again as soon as she sees her mother at night. It kind of bugs me but I know that is just her.